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Should such a title exist? In my school the best cheaters and strategists seem to be at the top of the class. Many of the students are encouraging the school to ban the title for at least this year. Our current val. is actually someone who has been caught cheating several times and has very little respect from the student body. what is your take on this? Sould such a title even exist in today's highly competitive, highly corrupt student bodies/grading systems? And what would be the best arguments against keeping the title?

By Djkid (Djkid) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

I say if your caught cheating more than once, you should be denied the title of valedictorian or salutorian (however you spell it). These people are the chronic cheaters that always do it. If you are only caught once you may be a lucky repetitive cheater but they should be given the benefit of the doubt. This person may have done everything else legitimately until that point and had a lapse in his/her character. However, if it repeated he/she apparently has not learned from his/her lesson, so does he/she deserve the titles? Everyone makes mistakes, one cheating incident should not strip away that honor. However, repeated insistences should play a role. Everyone cheats, lies, drinks, smokes, or commits other sinful acts during their lives. No one is perfect, not even the pope. However, people who turn themselves in and acknowledge their mistakes are respectable and should be honored especially since most of the people that commit such acts would not have the guts to be righteous in the end.

By Menu (Menu) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

this person was also caught cheating on the SATs

By Djkid (Djkid) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Well, how did he cheat on the SATs? Did he pay someone to take them?

By Menu (Menu) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:11 pm: Edit

notecards of some sort. But it really is less about the individual and more about the title itself. ranking is so imperfect now, with the level of cheating out there and it just seems really wrong to have to show this person respect by allowing them to speak at graduation. shouldnt someone who has really worked hard, or is the first from their family to attend college, or has really struggled but prevailed be honored instead?

By Djkid (Djkid) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:20 pm: Edit

In an utopian society, that would all work out. However students who have worked really hard, are the first from their family to go to college, or have struggled and prevailed are usually honored. Sometimes they are honored privately in their very homes, or if they are lucky they are honored in their societies. However, there are too many of those cases. If you honor one you have to honor all of them in order for it to be fair. For some high schools, one may have to honor half or more of the student body. Most schools are not willing to dish out that much cash for trophies, awards, ceremony times, etc for that which is kind of sad. However, that cheating person has worked hard at something. He has manipulated and played around the administration. He has worked hard to cheat and lose your respect. He does not deserve respect. But did has really struggled to cheat and has prevailed, has worked really hard to cheat, and he may be the first from his family to attend college (if he gets in anywhere with his record). He took the illegitimate path, it will all catch up to him later when he ends up in jail or on the run from illegal activity. The only way to stay happy and safe is to live life as morally as possible. So what, he speaks at graduation? You and perhaps the student body all know that he does not deserve it. He also knows that the only reason he's there is because he cheated. He may not feel guilty if he does not have a conscience, but he too knows that he has not earned it.

By Shelly147 (Shelly147) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Our school doesn't award the title of Valedictorian or salutatorian. A lot of times, several people have 4.0s, but they come from really different students (one from the all- AP student, one from the person who took PE and regular classes all 4 years) This could be eliminated by weighting GPAs, but my school is dumb and doens't include weighted GPAs in rankings. (grrrr)

I think they dont name valedictorian/ salutatorian because they're trying to eliminate the cutthroat competition atmosphere- they also eliminated the option of retaking a class unless you have a D or an F, because they didnt want the one student who got 1 B freshman year giving up a class just so they can have a perfect 4.0, because, in the long run, its not a matter of life and death.

I personally like it, theres not as much division and competition; everyone is happy for other's success instead of considering it a challenge for them to beat. Just my thoughts.

By Taru (Taru) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

I don't think such a title should exist. Class rank has been eliminated at my school because competition got out of control. Also, I read an article about a month ago on how insignificant GPA differences are for determining rank--the top three students' GPAs at this certain school were something like 3.987, 3.985, and 3.980 (~about that, and yeah, they did calculate to four sig figs....). We all know that GPA is variable and it's unfair to name someone valedictorian when it's that close. And student "corruption" just adds to this case.

By Purgeofdoors (Purgeofdoors) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

The kids who think rank is everything are the ones who get screwed in the end. If you give hours upon hours of your day to studying to halt the possibility of getting one B, you lose the opportunity to do the ECs that really matter... both for getting into college and in enjoying life as a whole.

For example, I'm not in the top 10 in my class. Do I care? No. I'm going to Yale, while most of the people in the top 10 are going to crappy local colleges that glee with misled delight at their beautiful 4.75 wGPAs.

By Drake (Drake) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 06:11 pm: Edit

I believe that Valedictorian titles should remain. Titles help in the college process and it is unfair to invalidate a title for a student who has worked hard to attain it. It is comparable to getting rid of SAT consideration. The kid who worked hard to study and got a 1600 instead of working at his rank will be at a disadvantage. (This is geared toward you Purgeofdoor, I see you have gotten rid of your listing of SATII score.)

HOwever in your case, the school should have expelled him long ago for continuous cheating.

BTW, you are absolutely right Purge of the importance of Rank. I Don't know why put such an insane importance on rank over SAT scores and ECs. Colleges realize the differences in competition in different schools, in fact I recently read an article online discussing a student with learning disabilities rise to the top of his Chicago inner-city school.

By Zephyrmaster (Zephyrmaster) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 06:13 pm: Edit

We don't have val, just a top 5% special distinction thing. I would rather have a val system (though I wouldn't be in it), but it really doesn't matter. It's just high school, colleges have been chosen by then, and no-one (unless they are a ****ing prick from hell and would say, "Hey my name is ______, I was valedictorian of my HS." lol) cares in the end.

In the big scope of things, HS GPAs, SAT scores, and ranks really don't matter. So he/she cheated. It'll come back to them. It's their life, live yours as you want to, and don't be concerned about people like that.

By Spunknic347 (Spunknic347) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 07:23 pm: Edit

At a neighbouring school, the kids are so rich and the school is so big that they don't rank kids because it would get too cut-throat and competitive. ( Not that wealth has a dirrect correlation with competitiveness but you get the point). This school is one of the biggest in the state.

By Vegangirl (Vegangirl) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit

At my school competition for val is WAY out of hand. People who take a full load of classes, including electives and foreign language (which aren't weighted here), have no chance to be val, even if they get all As all four years. That's because the number of unweighted classes they're taking, where an A is only 4.0 actually bring their GPAs down and the val ends up being someone who took several off periods each year instead of electives (as not to bring down the GPA they earned in weighted AP/honors classes). When kids get to jr. and sr. year, the ones near the top will often opt out of taking more language classes or electives, or also college classes (since my school doesn't weight those either) to preserve a 5.0 GPA. It's dumb and pointless, and I think it would serve the students better not to have this valedictorian status to strive for.

By Britbrat8604 (Britbrat8604) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Wow. am i the only person who has a ton of valedictiorians each year? At my school, anyone who has a 4.0 or over is titled valedictorian. Last year there were like 20. Then the person with the highest GPA gives the speech. Is this like weird or something??

By Wo4567 (Wo4567) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

I do not understand the point of these posts. There are some--I would assume most--valedictorians who do not achieve the honor via cheating, lying, stealing, thievery, or any other dishonest activity. It is a shame that so many of you have had these experiences with your valedictorians. It is also a shame that so many of you have experiences in which there is so much competition for grades at your school. In our top five we do not compete against each other, we help each other. If one of us is good at calculus (cough, salut..) and another at english (cough, vale) then the salut helps the vale with calc and the vale helps the salut with english. The working environment is not intended to be competitive (with the exception of politics.) Most working environments should be ones of cooperative work to achieve a universal goal. Why do so many high school students feel as though they must be better than someone else? It makes no sense to me. Most everyone will get the education, the future, and the place in society they deserve. People should work their hardest and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing. A homogenous society of competitive and dissatistfied individuals will never accomplish anything. A heterogenous society of cooperative individuals will accomplish infinite good.

By Justinmeche (Justinmeche) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

There was a thing in my high school where the girl who was going to be valedictorian took two study halls to boost her GPA. One of the study halls was used for her student council activities. The problem? The guidance counselor would not allow other students to take more than one study hall. The guidance counselor helped this girl to keep her GPA above mine (I was the salutatorian). I heard about it from an anonymous email. The person later identified herself and it was a friend of the valedictorian. What did I do about it? Nothing. I really didn't care because being #1 or #2 in my high school class would not affect my life. The girl ended up getting a full scholarship to a nearby state school while I went to an Ivy League. She would go to two more colleges before settling down. And guess what? I ended up transfering to the school where she got her full scholarship.
I am currently a junior mechanical engineering major I am doing very well. The high school drama about class rank was over and done with after I gave my commencement speech and received my diploma.

By Taru (Taru) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 11:32 pm: Edit

What really gets me is when one kid's parents sue the school for making her/him sal instead of val or something...ugh.

By Wishful_Thinker (Wishful_Thinker) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Alot of valedictorians go after the title, but alot of others don't. they just like learning and are rewarded for their hard work. i say keep the valedictorian because even if they did cheat, it'll come back to them when they fail all their classes or get caught.

By Leostargrl22 (Leostargrl22) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 10:19 pm: Edit

I think it is up to the school whether to cut the title or not. Personally, I don't think it is a horrific idea. I'm the valedictorian, but I'm not the smartest. My GPA was only bumped up b/c i took a hand-full of APs. It is kinda funny b/c when ever pp ask who # 1 and 2 is in my presence, they always guess the kids who are #2 and 3. I'm just lucky i guess, even though I worked the hardest for the spot.

By Somecanadianguy (Somecanadianguy) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:15 pm: Edit

well at least the way you get valedictorian makes sense, my school has a competition where each kid who wants says their speech and the kids vote, really retarded and the whole title is pointless cause all they do is say a speech, but get the title, how retarded...

By Bern700 (Bern700) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 02:09 am: Edit

at my school the class votes on the valedictorian from a list of the top 30 students.

By Menu (Menu) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit

wow i've never heard of voting for valedictorian, has it always been like that at your school?

By Bern700 (Bern700) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 02:26 am: Edit

its been like that for the past 10 or so years.

By Crazyyykid (Crazyyykid) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 03:38 pm: Edit

In middle school, we had to vote for valedictorian (called something else forgot what), but in high school the title valedictorian did not exist.

By Wishful_Thinker (Wishful_Thinker) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:42 pm: Edit

we didn't even have rankings or votings for a valedictorian in ms.

By Glowingamy (Glowingamy) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:51 pm: Edit

doesn't the simple fact that many people would take fewer classes (Despite Desire To Take Them!) in order to be valedictorian nullify ANY benefit having a val. might offer?

By Korey (Korey) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 08:56 pm: Edit

I think the titles should be taken away simply because I see no point in them...Who cares who has the highest GPA? To me, it seems more like a joke than an honor to make someone stand in front of their entire graduating class plus their parents and make some final bid to everyone... I've had to purposely make a few B's so I won't be Valedictorian of our class. Maybe I'm just weird...

By Gameguy56 (Gameguy56) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 09:33 pm: Edit

yes please, ban the Val title. My school is doing it (we are the last class to have one grrr....). We are totally doing away with ranking too. I am totally in favor of that, because, in my small school, you could be in the top ten people, but not in the top 5%. (ie I could be 8/150). The worst part is the GPA seperation from 1-10 is practically just 0.1. Its extraordinarily competitive

By Bluealien01 (Bluealien01) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Whatever happened to Blair Hornstine?

By Kato04 (Kato04) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 03:25 pm: Edit

I almost wish that they would get rid of the valedictorian distinction right now at my school, so I don't have to go through losing the title second semester senior year, right before graduation. As it stands right now, my gpa is .03 points higher than the kid who's second (and we don't use the 4.0 scale, so mine is 104.77, his is 104.74). It's really crazy... We're friends, but it can still be a sort of not talked about competition, though I might think of it that way more than he does. I've been first every year, but they've always been super close. We take all the same classes (4 AP's and Spanish), but I'm taking one extra class than him, photo, which isn't weighted as an honors or AP class (and the teacher is tough, so it's actually my lowest grade). It's going to bring me down just enough I think by the end of this term. I regret taking the class, but I was interested in it and I thought I could pull off like a 100 in it so it wouldn't make a big difference. Oh well, I enjoy the class and I've gotten into a great college already. Actually, I'm hoping we end up being co-valedictorians... I think that would be fun.

By Jgavagansays (Jgavagansays) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Heh.

By Musefinity (Musefinity) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Yeah, I sort of think they should. There is usually such a neglibible difference between the valedictorian and other students--like a .0125 GPA-difference--that it ends up being comical. And furthermore, at my school we don't have weighted grades, so the people at the head of their class are people dropped classes when they got hard and avoided challenges altogether. The kids who take APs end up getting screwed if they don't get an A. It's ridiculous that a person who aced horticulture 4 times should be getting more reward than a person who challenged him/herself in Calculus and got an A-. God, it's such pedantry.