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Hi....I saw a post somewhere on here at one point that described a list published by Worth Magazine ranking prep schools...I wonder if anyone knows of this list, what schools were on it, where this list can be accessed, or of any similar list? I'm interested to know the ranking of prep schools. I know it can be rather subjective, but I would still like to see an authoritive source's viewpoint.

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 01:04 am: Edit

here's the link to worth magazine's top 20 list of hyp feeder schools http://www.polytechnic.org/thepawprint/hyplist.htm

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 01:27 am: Edit

Just to clarify that list, it lists the schools that got the most kids into HYP that particular year. Such a listing can be very deceptive. My son's school gets many kids into the ivies, but it also has many ivy legacies as do those schools on the Worth list. Also that list can vary widely from year to year. I saw this year's list and it is different. There was one year that my other son's school got 9 kids into Harvard which was a truly unusual year that would have put it onto Worth's HYP list that year. You need a longer time span, broader criteria and a breakdown of special considerations (number of legacies, etc) to get a true idea of the ranking of a school.

The year one school got a large number of kids into HYP was a terrible year for admissions for that school because many kids did not get into a first choice or selective school that year and it was a fluke that so many kids got into HYP. It was great for those select kids, most of whom had some hook that would have gotten them in regardless of their highschool, but those kids who should have gotten into their choices and did not were not in such good stead. Don't know of any ranking system for prep schools that compares to the USN&WR rankings for colleges.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 09:44 am: Edit

Jamimom:

Does your kid go to Choate or Hotchkiss?

By Dday2004 (Dday2004) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 09:50 am: Edit

on top of what jamimom said, i think percentages would be a better representation of the top schools (or is it already measured by percentage and not pure numbers?) since some schools are larger than others.

By Wayne1 (Wayne1) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 01:08 pm: Edit

To Jamimom (Jamimom) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 01:27 am:
You said, "Just to clarify that list, it lists the schools that got the most kids into HYP that particular year."

I just wanted to correct you on your statement. The Worth Magazine article, "Getting Inside the Ivy Gates", Sept. 2002, and its "Top Feeder School List" on page 97, is based is on the percentages of each secondary or high school/prep school's students graduating from 1998 to 2001 (a four year period, not one particular year) matriculating at Harvard, Yale or Princeton (HYP).

This makes the study an acurrate one, based on the four year period studied, from 1998 to 2001. Of course, the next four year period from 2002 to 2005 must also be studied for updated info and changing trends. In any event, over the last two decades, almost all the major preps listed in the study have had the percentages of their graduates going to HYP and the rest of the Ivies, DECREASED, simply because these colleges want more diversity in their freshman classes and have greatly increased their acceptances of students from many more public high schools, other than the private preps.

By Sayo515 (Sayo515) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 01:24 pm: Edit

yes, it is by percentages

By Dday2004 (Dday2004) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

thanks, Sayo and Wayne

By Pinkflamingo (Pinkflamingo) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 03:36 pm: Edit

MY rankings of the top 10 boarding schools:
1. Groton
2. Andover
3. Exeter
4. St. Paul's
5. Choate
6. Hotchkiss
7. Deerfield
8. St. George's
9. Middlesex
10. Northfield Mt. Hermon

but I'm biased, what do you guys think?

By Momstheword (Momstheword) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Aaacccck--Just say no to prep school rankings! Rankings sure haven't done the colleges any good.

By Nemom (Nemom) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:00 pm: Edit

I agree with Momstheword. What percentage of kids got into Ivies is a fairly lousy measure of a school. It's highly biased in the case of NE prep schools - they draw a lot of kids from families that are legacies at Ivies - and there is no obvious way to determine whether a school really had any affect. Worth's listing is accurate in terms of the method used, but there is little to say that a high percentage of Ivy-bound seniors really means very much.

By Mom101 (Mom101) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit

I agree, a true measure would be to measure non-legacy admits! I wish we could encourage the kids to understand that among all of these really fine schools, the best is the one they fell most comfortable at. Now if the measure is where did the kids look most happy on our tour (Groton, Andover, Exeter, Choate, St. Paul's and Deerfield, hands down it was St. Paul's. All the kids greeted each other by name and looked estatic to be there. The other end of the spectrum was Groton where they looked downright glum. Maybe we were there on a bad day.

By Wayne1 (Wayne1) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 09:24 pm: Edit

In the case of the N.E. boarding preps, and HYP and Ivies' admissions, "hooks" come into play as major factors in admissions. These private preps, boarding and day schools, admit their students in the same manner HYP would admit its students, using essentially the same criteria, which is inclusive of legacies, rich VIPs, athletes, URMs, special talents, and of course academic standouts, not necessarily in this order. Therefore, one cannot "measure" the efficacy of a private prep with precision in preparing the student for the Ivies and HYP, in light of the criteria used for admission, which is really separate and distinct from the actual academic excellence of the institution. The few universal standards still in use are the mean SSAT scores of each school's entering class and the mean SAT I and SAT II scores of each school's graduating class. There still is a correlation between each school's senior mean SAT I score and the percentage of the graduating class that matriculates at HYP and the 8 Ivies.


Of the "top ten" boarding schools, both Exeter and Andover have the highest SAT 1 scores with the exception of Groton School's average SAT 1 of 1400 which graduated only about 80 seniors in 2000. Exeter's seniors had an average SAT 1 score of about 1370, the highest of any elite boarding school with over 300 graduates in 2000. The seniors at Phillips Andover Academy, Exeter's chief rival, had an average SAT 1 score of about 1350.


The other top boarding schools' senior average SAT 1 scores include Choate's 1300, Hotchkiss' 1285, Taft's 1285, Milton's 1310 and Lawrenceville's 1310. All students admitted to these schools had to take the SSAT, a standardized test similar to the SAT 1. Other admission criteria include grades, talents, sports, alumni parents, and ethnic and racial backgrounds.


There is a direct correlation between the average SAT 1 scores, exclusive of all other college admission criteria used, of these boarding schools and the percentage of its seniors admitted to the Ivy League and to the U.S. News Top Ten Lists of colleges. Groton, with average SATs of 1400, has 34% of its seniors going to the Ivies, whereas Exeter and Andover (average SATs of 1370 and 1350 respectively) have 30% of its seniors going to the Ivies in 2000. Choate, with average SATs of 1300, has 20% of its seniors going to the Ivies. Hotchkiss with average SATs of 1285 has 19% of its seniors going to the Ivies.


I am quite familar with Milton Academy, the prep school of Sen. Edward M. and the late Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, because our son applied and was admitted to all of the top boarding schools in the 9th grade, including Groton, St. Paul's, Andover, Exerter, Milton, and Lawrenceville, but he chose Andover for his own reasons and not for the most impressive HYP and Ivy matriculation lists which Groton leads the pack with. The matriculation lists for each school are deceiving because many of these matriculants in these schools have "hooks" to begin with, such as the legacy, the rich and famous VIP, and the recruited nationally ranked athlete preferences. They would have been admitted to the Ivies and HYP no matter where they go. Groton is well known as the bastion of the elite and not long ago admitted ALL its graduates to one school only, Harvard, with very few exceptions. Those days are over. By the same token, for yourself, you should evaluate boarding school as a total experience for your own needs. For many, it is the experience that counts and is most valuable. Andover for our son was the right choice because of the "experience". He is an an exceptional student, even in a school of exceptional students and one makes what wants to make of the experience.

Andover has probably the most liberal rules of all the boarding preps with few Saturday classes, no mandatory Chapel 4 mornings/wk and a Sunday, as with Groton. Andover also does not subcribe to the zero-tolerance policy in disciplinary actions. Because of its size, Andover has a wider variety of course offerings than the smaller preps, but Exeter has more offerings in advanced college math and the sciences with its new science center. Andover has courses in the liberal arts that many colleges do not even have, such as "Proof and Persuasion", an excellent course in logical and critical thinking. Andover opened its own new science center in 2004. But then, Andover and Exeter and the rest of the big preps never emphasized math and science like the best public magnet schools, such Bronx Science, Stuyvesant, and Thomas Jeffereson H.S. for Technolgy and Science in Fairfax, Virginia did. Jefferson has the the largest number of National Merit-Semi-Finalists in the country. It had 145 NMSF out of a class of 400, by by far the HIGHEST percentage of any school in the nation, public or private. Stuyvesant had the second highest number of National Merit Semi-Finalists. But the "experience" is quite different in a boarding prep which better prepares the student for college. The workload is heavier than most colleges and the extracurricullar offerrings are numerous at Andover with the best Community Service program of all the preps. The boarding experience is different from the private day prep experience such as in Dalton, Brearley, Horace Mann, and Roxbury Latin School in West Roxbury, Mass which is the biggest feeder with the highest percentage of its grads going to HYP and especially to Harvard because the Dean of Harvard College is on its board of trustees.

When one compares Milton to Andover, one is really comparing apples to oranges. Milton is more "Bostonian" since it is only a few miles from Boston with only 40% of its students boarding and 60% of students commuting as day students. Milton also has a lower school in addition to the 9-12 grades which all makes for quite a different experience. Although Milton's campus is quite beautiful and historic, it is much smaller than the 500 acres that Andover is on, which is recognized as the most beautiful campus of the preps and of the many New England colleges. Andover is more like a New England village with Cochran Chapel as its centerpiece and it grads usually have more fond memories of Andover than of their college.

To be specific, From Worth Magazine, Sept., 2002:

Over a recent 4 year period, from 1998 to 2001, 1. Groton sent 17.86% of its grads to either Harvard, Princeton or Yale, 2. Milton sent 15.84%, 3. Andover sent 15.68%, and 4. Exeter sent 14.75%. At 5. St. Paul's, 13.7%, 6. Hotchkiss, 11.01%, 7. Deerfield, 10.77%, 8. Lawrenceville, 7.67%, 9. St. Andrew's, 7.38%, and FINALLY 10. Choate, 7.16% of all the rspective graduates going to HYP.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

pinkflamingo.....im interested to know why you didn't include taft on your list? im not trying to say you were wrong in doing that im just wondering why since im probably going to be going there next year.....

By Pinkflamingo (Pinkflamingo) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 01:37 am: Edit

oh sorry I just forgot about Taft. in my opinion it would be above middlesex and Northfield, but I agree with momstheword, it is kind of stupid to rate the schools, people like schools for differant reasons, and one school may not be the right school for everyone. I'm just happy I chose Groton above andover, exeter, deerfield, or middlesex, I lucked out and chose the right school for me! And I would not say that Groton is still "a bastion of the elite" like someone mentioned above. I'm on a LOT of financial aid and I fit right in and I got into an Ivy w/o a legacy or connections. But my form is ridiculously smart, the average sat 1 for my graduating class this year is 1410!

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 02:41 am: Edit

pinkflamingo, where does lawrenceville fall on your list?

By Bruceconti (Bruceconti) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 09:48 am: Edit

Pinkflamingo: Care to compare and contrast St. Pauls and Groton, as I have to choose between them. I was accepted at both and in a complete quandary.

By Dmitrypetrovna (Dmitrypetrovna) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 11:44 am: Edit

Pinkflamingo left out Milton too.

By Cubfan (Cubfan) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

mom101. when i toured sps, i asked my guide, who was a junior, what the weekends were like, she said" saturrdays are ok because we have class half the day. Sundays are harder because i miss my family so much." She had tears in her eyes. I almost went home right then. luckily, the rest of my tours were more upbeat!

By Mom101 (Mom101) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 06:59 pm: Edit

These schools should choose their guides more carefully. I had to really ask my daughter not to be swayed by how much she related to the one person. At St. Paul's I saw so many smiling faces, kids very engaged in obviously interesting classrooms and the greatest overt friendliness. What did others see?

By Annakat (Annakat) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 08:13 pm: Edit

i'm a white girl, and i went to a public high school in california and got into williams, swarthmore, wesleyan, princeton, vassar, oberlin, and penn. why spend the money on prep school or the energy ranking them?

By Pinkflamingo (Pinkflamingo) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 08:45 pm: Edit

yeah ok I did a bad job on my list Milton and lawrenceville should both be on there... yikes, ignore me.

and Bruceconti-- are you going to be going to revisit day at either groton or sps? that would probably be the best way to get a feel for both schools. I think that both sps and groton are academically strong but I would say that groton is a little bit stronger academically, but is also more controlling in terms of academic choice i.e. you have to take two years of either latin or greek and you have to take a modern language and sacred texts and ethics, so that could be a downside.
aesthetically speaking I prefer the groton campus over St. Paul's, St. Paul's seems kind of rambling and confusing (even though it does have some beautifl buildings) whereas groton is laid out very deliberatley around the circle (the huuge grass lawn in the center of campus)and the vista looking out towards the mountains. it's easy to get around and the campus is beautiful with the chapel, dining hall, art center, athletic center, schoolhouse, brooks house, the headmasters house, fives courts, and hundred house all situated around it. The nice thing about that is that you can always see what's going on around campus and where everyone is going.
size-wise groton may get frustrating to some, you only have about 80 people in your form so if you're the type of person who doesn't wan't to know EVERYTHING about everyone in your form you should opt for a bigger school like sps. however on the flip side, by the end of four years you are such good friends with so many people in your form that you know you'll have them forever.
athletically speaking sps, is way better than groton. Groton is only good at ultra preppey individual sports like crew, squash, tennis, and crosscountry, whereas sps is better at a wider array of sports.
religioulsy , I know sps and groton are the two most religious of the good boarding schools. I don't know any specifics about sps, but at groton we have nondenominational chapel before classes four times a week (where we sit say a prayer, listen to a chapel talk by a student or teacher and sing a hymn) and have sunday chapel.
another facet of groton is it's many traditions we have so many weird days and events that have been going on for rever like roll call (where all theschool gathers in the schoolroom to make and listen to announcements)surprise holiday (each term when the headmaster and senior prefects announce during roll call that classes have been cancelled and everyone goes into boston or to the movies.. those are the greatest days ever!), parlor (when the headmaster invites your form to come to his house for milk and cookies, VI form gets to go every week), st. marks day, lessons and carols, the festival of lights, sitdown, prize day, spring fling, senior streak, skip day, seasonal formals, etc. handshaking is also another weird tradition. You shake the hand of your dorm head each night before you go to bed. if you visit a persons room in the dorm of the oppposite sex you shake the hand of the dormhead of that dorm. and after parlor you shake the hand of the headmaster, and everyone shakes the hands of the seniors in each dorm before going to bed at night. this makes prize day even more poignent because you have a final handshaking outside after graduation where the seniors shake hands and say goodbye to all the students and teachers.
another good thing about groton is that you are really given a lot of responsibility as a VI former. Each senior is a prefect in a dorm and basically you run the dorm with the dormhead. You are also assigned to be a student advisor to new students. in addition you lead the school interms of activities, sports and we basically run chapel in the mornings,we assign tours, run sit down, and take attendance for lectures. we are also given a lot of freedom. after handshaking and check in at night seniors have 10-12 where we can be anywhere on campus until 12. that is the most awesome time of the day and allows time to set up senior pranks and to chill with the other seniors.
socially speaking groton and sps are both thought to be extremely wasp-y, rich, and preppy, but that is not the case. (a girl at groton just gave a chapel talk about she has been homelss for the past year!) there are a bunch of east coast kids from the upper east side who summer on fischers island, but they are a really and are not socially exclusive at school. I have also heard that at sps ther eis some self segregation with the black and asianstudents where they tend to sit with each other in the dining hall, but groton is so small that that really can't happen and everyone is fairly integrated into the form as a whole.
i've probably rambled incoherantly for a long time, but if you have any more specific questions feel free to ask and i would highly reccomend going to revisit day to get a better feel for both schools. best of luck!

By Pinkflamingo (Pinkflamingo) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

and to mom101, tours are pretty random at those schools and are mostly just assigned based upon which kids have a free that period. sometimes you'll luck out and get a good and engaged guide, but every so often you might get a not so great guide.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Annakat.....congratulations on your college acceptences!! You are obviously a great student who is coming from a good school. However, no public school education or day school education can compare to the education and experience one receives at a prep school. I'm sorry to say this, but one must be quite ignorant to deny that. Of course, preppies do want to go to good colleges. But, we also want to go to an insanely good high school, which we are or will be starting in the fall . That's what we're paying the money for. We rank them because we're hopeless over achievers and slightly obsessive over these fabulous schools. Have fun at college!!

By Bruceconti (Bruceconti) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Wow thanks PinkFlamingo!!! I will be sure to ask you any questions that I have, and I will be sure to pay attention on revisit day (april 6)

By Annakat (Annakat) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:04 am: Edit

babygurl,
yes, you're right. no boarding school experience, which involves being separated from your family at the age of 13 and spending your formative years around people other than the ones closest to you, can compare to living at home and attending a public high school where you are exposed to people from all socioeconomic and ethnic backgrounds. being around different people prevents ignorance, and i consider myself enlightened. as for my high school education, i'm holding my own and doing far better than kids in my dorm who went to the likes of choate and exeter. it infuriates them that we're all at the same place. also, i made some extra money tutoring the kids of one of my dad's friends for the SAT. the poor kids were so unhappy. their parents sent them to st. marks, st. pauls, and st. georges. they ended up at colleges that don't make the CC top LAC or USNews top tier. would you please tell me a little bit about the "education and experience one receives at a prep school" that i missed on? one of my friends went to andover and what he remembers most about being there is wanting to come home.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:44 am: Edit

Annakat,

There's nothing to be ashamed of coming from public school. There is no need either, however, to develop a superiority complex either.

As far as prep school kids goes, you can hardly generalize every prep school kid by "kids in [your] dorm who went to the likes of choate and exeter." First of all, "holding your own?" What is that supposed to mean? If you mean that you are doing better academically, then kudos to you. You may just adjust very easily. I fail to see how that proves public school superiority.

There is evidence that prep school students are prepared better for college in some ways- I know over a hundred students- both public and prep school students- at Ivy League schools, and both admit that prep school students are generally better adjusted during the first few years of college. Secondly, prep school students do not go to prep school solely to get into college, a false misconception that some may believe. I could have had an easier time getting into a top tier college from my old school, but I came to prep school because I believe I can gain a valuable high school, and ONLY high school experience I couldn't have gotten at my old public school, which happened to be nationally ranked and in the top ten, according to USNWR.
Besides, the very fact that there are so many prep school students in your dorm is evidence that many prep school students ARE qualified to go to elite colleges. Yes, some prep school students gain entry to prep school for unfair reasons, and don't deserve to go to top tier colleges. Same with some college students, who gain entry for unfair reasons. Doesn't mean you can draw any conclusions from that alone.

And yes, you are sending your formative years around other people... but you're wrong- they DO become close to you. In fact, I have a better relationship living away from home with my parents than at home, because now that we don't have to deal with the typical silly teenage-parent clean-your-room, finish-your-plate interactions, we are free to appreciate each other's company MORE when we are together.

And going to school with people of different socioeconomic backgrounds? Over one third of most prep schools now offer financial aid who those who cannot afford the education, and many have need-blind admissions, which do not make admissions decisions based on financial aid. Besides, Williams, Swarthmore, Princeton, Vassar, etc.? Who are you kidding? The majority of the colleges you were admitted to, according to overwhelming sources of students, alumni, and statistics happen to be some of the most homogeneous, preppy colleges on the East Coast, particularly Williams and Princeton. According to another post, you go to Swarthmore. According to several student reviews, Swarthmore is "oppressively liberal pseudo-tolerance, and it can be somewhat stifling." If you REALLY want diversity, try Columbia or some of the UC Schools.

Finally, it IS true that prep school is very rigorous and exhausting, but in the opinion of the majority of its graduates, a highly rewarding experience, as evidenced by the high alumni contribution rate and tight alumni network. You want to know about experience at prep school? How about world-class speakers, nationally renowned museums, close friendships and living in a dorm with other bright, talented students your age, exciting classes, olympic caliber athletes, gorgeous campuses, and caring faculty... all at the high school level?

I've been to public high school. I've been to magnet school. Both excellent, nationally ranked schools. Neither has come close to the experience prep school. Don't judge something you have little firsthand knowledge about, and base completely on several anecdotes and stereotypes.

By Annakat (Annakat) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:42 am: Edit

Bigblue,

My Father and my two older siblings are prep school graduates. I have firsthand knowledge of that culture, the sometimes unhealthy environment at those places, and the superiority complex that it breeds in its students (do you detect an air of superiority in babygurl's post?). As for minorities in prep school . . . give me a break. The overwhelming majority of the students at prep schools are still privileged children of the upper classes.

One can't have access to museums, close friendships, interesting speakers, exciting classes, and academically and athletically talented peers while attending a public high school? And do you really get along better with your parents because you spend most of your time away from them?

Do you think it's good for 13-14 year-olds to be so obsessed with getting ahead that they're ranking prep schools?

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

Annakat:

I am a parent. While I agree with you that Iprep school ranking is silly. But you can not disgaree with me that excluding the financial constraints, going to a prep school depends on a kid. Some kids want to do it and others are not ready for it. Peer do influence other fellow students.

However, your assumption that overwhelming kids are privilaged is wrong. My family came to this country 20 years ago. "I learned how to speak english here." You can call us middle calss family. My kid are not with privilage backround at all.

Have you ever thought why People want to go to elite colleges? A college is not great by itself. Only fellow students and professors make it special. I am sure being an intellegent person you would like to debate your points and make a different conclusion from it.

However, you can not compare the most public school with prep school. Reason is that the most of the kid are willing to work harder in order to achieve their dream. Why they do it, beacise they see other kids doing it.

Will you find brilliant kids in public school, yes they are all over the places. Will you find slckares in prep school, yes but percentage is lower than most public school with the exception of TJ/Huneter/Brons scince etc. I would say that STUY and TJ are on the same foot as NE elite prep school. They may be better in math and scince but a little notch below in humanities. Thus, every kid being an individual choice what he or she wants to do.

Good luck with your college.

By Mom101 (Mom101) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit

I totally agree with the above. I want my D to attend so that she has peers who are as hard working and self-motivated as she is. That is the true beauty of a great prep school. I have a son at a nationally ranked public high school--the difference is stark and depressing. Almost every kid heading off to a top school from a public knows he is reducing his chances in the ivys but why wait four more years for access to a great education.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:58 am: Edit

Annakat:

Did you detect an air of superiority in my post? Probably. I do feel that prep schools are superior to most public schools. That is not coming from a superiority complex - that is coming from facts.

As Chinaman pointed out, there are some public schools that are on par with prep schools. However, most public schools are not.

Can you have access to museums, close friendships, interesting speakers, exciting classes, and academically and athletically talented peers while attending a public high school? Yes, of course. Will the percentage of public school students experiencing all of those things be remotely close to the percentage of prep school students receiving all of those things? Absolutely not.

Compare the SAT scores and college admittances of the students of a prep school with most public schools and the prep school will beat the public school.

[My Father and my two older siblings are prep school graduates. I have firsthand knowledge of that culture] If your father and brothers have told you about prep school that is second hand knowledge. Unless you have attended a prep school you have no first hand knowledge of them.

[Do you think it's good for 13-14 year-olds to be so obsessed with getting ahead that they're ranking prep schools? ] Of course I don't think it's good for them. Are there worse things they could be out doing? Absolutely. Anyway, my use of the word obsessing was supposed to be a half joke (as bad of a half joke as it was). I don't think they're obsessing at all. I think they're excited and I think that it is good for students to be excited about their school.

Also, if your father thinks/says that prep school is so horrible why did he send his children there? If your brothers heard from him how terrible it is why did they go?

Annakat, I am not trying to bash you, your family, or your school. However, for you to say that public schools offer a better overall education and experience than prep schools is ridiculous. Some of them might. But, the staggering majority of them? No way.

Home sickness is a natural part of attending a prep school. However, it is hard for me to believe that if it really is as bad as you say so many students would return year after year. I'm sure that some students are forced to return by their parents. But, you can't assume that that's the popular action based on your experience with a minute percentage of prep school students.

I'm sure you are very "enlightened" on many topics. I don't believe you are on prep schools.

By Cubfan (Cubfan) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:10 am: Edit

this debate is great. KEEP IT UP!!

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

Care to add your thoughts Cubfan?

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:27 am: Edit

I just want to add:

If any human has money will you he or she buy brand name item or just wear anything to cover his or her body. Thus when you have admission you start thinking about school or college. It is analogous to buying a cloth what color one like, cost, how would he look into that clothes, style etc. In this process you are thinking about buying clothes and if you have more money you can buy brand anem items. If you have money and I tell you to buy clothes from walmart will you do it. Probably not.

Thus about school admission, if this thinking is done by kid in selecting his/her school that is a sign of maturity no matter how trivial it is. Your four year life depends on it. You do not have to be obsess with it but you want to know before you make decisions. THus asking for helpful is a good sign. I am sure you must be asking some question on which college you want to attend. Thus, where there is a choice, some people will always come with some ranking. Others amy not like it, but it is okay to ask question. I think the US ranking for college started this way. Any way you can not go wrong. Good luck to you for your college choice. And please ask question if you are not sure before you make decision.

By Cubfan (Cubfan) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit

i may apply next year. I toured several schools and was blown away by the facilities. I love the idea of boarding school but am scared the reality may be different. It has to be tough to leave your family especially when you will bre a plane flight away. It would be much easier if your family lived in the northeast and you were only an hour or two away. For example, I still can't tell if Gian is enjoying his stay!! I absoulutely believe the experience is incomparable and friends of my parents say it was the best time of their lives. that also makes me nervous because they all say college was a huge letdown and these people went to great schools, williams, princeton,etc. I'm just trying to gather all the info i can to help me with my own decision and i appreciate all the posts. Good luck in Watertown!

By Annakat (Annakat) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

Babygurl,

You're reading too much into my posts. Did I write that my Dad hated prep school? No. Did I say that public high schools provide a better overall education than prep schools? No. Do I think that some prep school students think they're better than other kids because they went or are going the prep school route? Yes (see your posts and their tone for evidence of this; Chinaman, education is like name brand clothes?).

P.S. I started high school at a prep school in Massachusetts. I hated it.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:18 pm: Edit

The success of prep schools is masked by the fact that they cherry-pick their students in the first place.

Public schools that do similar cherry-picking, e.g., Stuyvesant or Boston Latin, have similar results.

And in the long run, matched students from decent public hs are going to do as well.

I'm not saying there are no advantages to prep schools. But I am suggesting that it's not as one-sided a debate as their proponents would have you believe.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Thanks Cubfan! I'm sure you'll make the right decision about whether or not to apply and have a great time in high school.

Annakat:

"Did I say that public high schools provide a better overall education than prep schools? No."

I beg to differ.....

"no boarding school experience, which involves being separated from your family at the age of 13 and spending your formative years around people other than the ones closest to you, can compare to living at home and attending a public high school where you are exposed to people from all socioeconomic and ethnic backgrounds."

"as for my high school education, i'm holding my own and doing far better than kids in my dorm who went to the likes of choate and exeter."

"would you please tell me a little bit about the "education and experience one receives at a prep school" that i missed on? "

"Did I write that my Dad hated prep school? No."

No, but the following statement that you made is slightly misleading:

"My Father and my two older siblings are prep school graduates. I have firsthand knowledge of that culture, the sometimes unhealthy environment at those places, and the superiority complex that it breeds in its students (do you detect an air of superiority in babygurl's post?)."

I was slightly confused and accidently believed you were attributing your first hand knowledge to the knowledge supplied to you by your father and brothers.

And yes, I do think that prep school kids are better than some public school students because I feel a good education gives a person value and I believe prep schools give better educations than public school. I don't think I've denied this.

I am ranking these schools because I want to see where Taft falls in the rankings as well as learn about the culture I will be entering in the fall.

I'm sorry you hated your prep school experience. I wish you wouldn't try to demean the experience of others.

By Evrythingonebad (Evrythingonebad) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:17 pm: Edit

babygurl, which grade will you be entering this fall?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Chinaman, we are not in New England. I am very familiar with Choate as my oldest son was accepted there but we chose not to send him for a variety of reasons. Also my close friend sent and graduated her daughter from Choate and I have known the girl since she was in kindergarten. My son also applied to Andover and was not accepted there but that is my sum total of personal experience with the NE schools.

With different types of children, I would certainly have loved to send my kids to these schools, but all of my kids had needs that were better addressed at home. I have two in a school that is considered excellent and has a boarding component that I have not used though we live a bit far from the school. Maybe the younger son will board there after freshman year as he is more academically responsible than the other boys in the family and can get through difficult material without help, an issue I had with the girls.

All of my kids ended up graduating from private schools. The two boys went on to highly selective schools, the girls to schools that most kids would consider safeties. The girls want to be doctors and their colleges offer a "deal" for med school admissions which is the primary reason they chose those schools. They would have struggled at the top premed schools like Johns Hopkins, Cornell or Rochester. One girl is already in medical school and the other is petitioning to graduate from college early (next year) and is going to apply to med schools this summer. The strategy has worked so far, but we still have to wait and see.

I doubt if any of my kids would have gotten any money from any of the prep school as their profiles were not that great. My friend's daughter who did very well in school and graduated from Choate did not get a dime from them and was actually waitlisted when she initially applied. Her mother was told it was because she had also applied for financial aid. They removed that stipulation and she was accepted. She loved it there, but it cost my friend dearly.

Your sons sound like remarkable young men and I would so interested in hearing how you and they embark on their college journies. Do keep on posting and keep us apprised. You have some great insights on situaions here.

By Tarkus (Tarkus) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:37 pm: Edit

My daughter's been accepted to a number of boarding schools and has narrowed it down to Exeter and Lawrenceville. I'd love to understand how any of you see the pluses and minuses of each school...many thanks in advance.

By Momstheword (Momstheword) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:42 pm: Edit

It seems silly to me to be debating prep vs. public, which is "better." It comes down to what specifically are you looking for in a h.s. (such as specific programs, access to topnotch teachers, diversity, opportunities, inspirational or historical settings, topnotch facilities, motivated fellow students, the opportunity to shine, etc.) and where best to find it.

As everyone knows, wherever you go, there are trades. The question is, what trades are you/your parents willing to make? Cocky kids, slackers, Ivy-bound kids enter and exit both public and prep schools. Some kids get homesick at times at prep. Some kids get mightily sick of their parents while going to a public school.

Preps cherry pick by design and some publics in high cost real estate areas cherry pick by default. Nothing startling here.

For us, prep school was the better choice. Not as measured by college admissions, tho my kids are in a top 15 and an Ivy, but as measured by a zillion tangibles and other intangibles important to our family.

By Jnatkins (Jnatkins) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Lawrenceville's missing on these lists

By Mindyzhang (Mindyzhang) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

exeter rules.

By T2opine (T2opine) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:09 pm: Edit

I have to say that for the most part, prep schools would naturally be better. If I were a parent spending thousands of dollars a year on my child's education, the school BETTER have highly motivated students, dedicated teachers, a high percentage of students going on to college, and a very rigorous college-prep structure. Prep schools, from what I understand, tend to be very selective. They're probably not going to accept someone who they think will slack off or won't be motivated. That isn't possible for public schools, as they need to allow everyone to have an education.

Depending on where you go to school, they student body can be very diverse. At a boarding school near where I live (George School in case any of you are wondering), there are several students from outside of the U.S. And at some of the well known prep schools, 20% of the student body are students of color. That's more than some of the public schools in the affluent areas around here. And then there's also an all-boys prep school that only has around 6 African Americans. When I went to the graduation for that school last year I was shocked because I seriously had never seen so many white people. My school is almost 50% minority, so I'm used to seeing people of a lot of different ethnicities.

I have to say, one thing that prep school students get a bad reputation for is the stereotype "prep school attitude." What I'm talking about is the stereotype "I go to a prep school, I'm better than you" attitude. Now, to be completely honest, I do know a lot of kids who have that attitude. However, I know a lot who are nothing like the stereotype at all. And I've seen the same attitude among students at public high schools. Maybe part of the "prep school attitude" is that people expect it out of them and automatically pick apart everything they say. Please don't misinterpret this and think that I'm saying all prep school students are like this. I've known my share of them, but I certainly don't believe that it's true for all (or even most) of the prep school kids.

Speaking from personal experience, I am a public school student, and I wouldn't trade my experience for anything. However, I know several students who went to prep schools and they wouldn't want to go anywhere else. It's different for different people. Like anything, your education and high school experience is what you make of it. I've known people who went to great high schools only to come close to not graduating and getting nothing out of their experience. I've also known kids from not so great schools who are very successful.

Babygurl, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I do think that prep school kids are better than some public school students because I feel a good education gives a person value and I believe prep schools give better educations than public school." Are you saying academically better or personally better. If it's the latter then I think we'll have to respectfully disagree, because I've known a lot of prep school students who are not what I would consider more mature or better than public school students. Definitely your personality would be different if you go to a boarding school. I think anyone would grow up faster if they were living thousands of miles away from home at 14. Your values are probably very different. I'm just not sure what you mean by this statement.

Ok, I've rambled enough, so I think I'll end this now, but basically, there are great things about public schools, and ther are great things at prep schools. It really does depend on what you're looking for in a high school education, and where you think the best place is that you can find it.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Everythinggonebad:

I will enter 10th grade in the fall. Why do you ask?

T2opine:

What I meant by my statement is not entirely black and white. I mean (this is a generalization and obviously not true in all cases) academically better. However, in some ways, I also mean personally better. Not personally as in personality, kindness, etc. But intelligence (not IQ intelligence, the intelligence that comes from knowledge) and education are qualities I highly value in people. So, since in my opinion prep schools educated students better than public schools do, in some ways, (and this is of course a generalization that is not true in all cases) I do feel that prep school students are personally better than public school students. I'm not trying to say I look down on public school people or think I'm "above" spending time with them;I'm not and I don't. In fact, my best friend goes to a public school.

Wow....for some reason I feel mighty inarticulate tonight...excuse me.

By Sayo515 (Sayo515) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit

>>I'm not trying to say I look down on public school people or think I'm "above" spending time with them;I'm not and I don't. In fact, my best friend goes to a public school.<<

Hey, I'm not racist...some of my best friends are African American.

By Calidad (Calidad) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 03:38 am: Edit

Between Exeter and Lawrenceville, I think you should consider the high number of day students at L'ville. I see this as a disadvantage. Still, L'ville is a good school which has raised its academic standards in recent years.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 09:36 am: Edit

Sayo515...I was being truthful. I don't appreciate your sarcasm.

"Hey, I'm not racist...some of my best friends are African American. "

Especially since if you said that to me, I would believe you.

By Babygurl89919 (Babygurl89919) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 10:13 am: Edit

Okay....after reviewing sayo515's response as well as my message I have realized that it did come off quite pretentiously....like I said I was feeling rather inarticulate last night because I had just gotten back from a party and I was really tired...so allow me to clarify a few things.

I think that prep school students have a right to be proud of the phenomenal school they attend. I think they have a right to show their pride on a forum such as this one, especially when someone contests their school's greatness. However, I don't think they should treat public school students any differently than fellow prep school students (this is where the personal factor comes in).

Everyone has the right to associate with the people they choose and they can choose those people based on characteristics of their choice. I look for people who are intelligent, educated, academically motivated, ambitious, funny, nice, generous, and fun. There are people like this at both public (my best friend being one of them, this is the point I was trying to make...) and prep schools.

Can I assume that there will be a higher percentage of people who are intelligent, educated, academically motivated, and ambitious at prep schools? Since admissions committees try to accept only students with those qualities, I believe that I can.

Because of this, I don't think that is wrong for prep school students to feel a greater initial identification with a fellow prep school student than with a public school student. They have something in common! - it is human nature to identify with people you have things, especially a big thing like that, in common with. However, I don't believe the public student should be thought any less of or that the prep school student meeting them shouldn't have an open mind about the public school student. They'll just have to find something else they have in common, perhaps it will even be a bigger thing than prep school.

I don't think that as a legacy, day school student, or soon to be a prep school student, I'm better than anyone who isn't any or all of those things. I strongly believe that I have a right to take pride in all of the hard work, time, and dedication that has or will go into all of those things by myself and my family. I also don't think it's wrong for me to feel a connection with anyone who has or will do any of those things.

I hope I've explained myself a bit better, T2opine.

By T2opine (T2opine) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 04:17 pm: Edit

Babygurl, thank you for explaining that. I definitely think that a prep school student would have a greater initial identification with another prep school student. I know when I first met some of my prep school friends, I didn't think we had too much in common. After all, school is such a big part of a teenager's life, and someone who goes to the same kind of school (in your case, a prep school) probably has some kind of an understanding of how difficult the school is, or what pressures you have. I know I certainly feel like I have a lot more in common with public school kids, more specifically, the kids who don't go to school in the most affluent areas. And certainly prep schools have extremely intelligent and motivated students. Perhaps the biggest difference between prep schools and public schools are that at prep schools EVERYONE is going to be intelligent, motivated, and ambitious, where that may not be the case at a public school.

By L4ur3nz0 (L4ur3nz0) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 10:01 pm: Edit

ly a sophomore at Palo Alto High School. This year I applied to 3 schools: Deerfield, Loomis, and Taft to attend for my junior and senior year. I got into Deerfield and Loomis but was rejected from Taft...which sort of confuses me but that's another story. I was actually quite set on going to Taft so I'm sort of bummed. BUT...my question is..Does anybody have any insider information on which school (Deerfield or Loomis) I should go to? I already know Deerfield is ranked higher and what not, but I am very used to not living a strict, somewhat "party" life and I'm scared the transition will be too hard. In addition, I'm scared I will be behind there since it is so prestigious...Loomis seems to be more of a balance of academics and fun..What to do?

By Mom101 (Mom101) on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 11:18 am: Edit

I drive by Paly daily and it does look like there's not a lot of structure. What do you want, fun or the best education you can get? You're clearly smart, so can you take school a little more seriously for two years to get into the best possible college? If that matters to you, go to Deerfield. It's been my experience that putting my nose to the grindstone during high school and college has allowed me to have a lifetime of fun.

By Meredith (Meredith) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Deerfield is probably the most popular (not necessarily the "best") private high school on the east coast except for perhaps some city day schools. It is rapidly getting better academically, and its endowment is growing. It leaves Loomis in the dust despite the fact that Loomis is quite a good school.

By Betsy (Betsy) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 08:45 pm: Edit

I am a prep school grad, many years ago, and now have a daughter who will be leaving the public system to attend a private day school, for 7th grade. The boarding experience for me was mixed. I got an excellent education, but it was lonely, being away from home. I will say that I have a fabulous relationship with my parents, partly due to the fact that I wasn't at home during my high school years.

I have chosen a day school for my daughter because our public system isn't challenging her and is too large. The private school decision is only partially based on college, but more for the better experience at a smaller, more challenging school.

My son may stay with the public system... haven't decided yet.