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-> Do you feel really pissed when you try really hard, but you don't get scores as well as other who did not try, copy off works, and get higher scores?
I know people who do not do much work, and usually just copy off works (like worksheets,hw). But they exchange information about quizes/tests. For a class with not much work, but tests, they can do really well, though some people like me have to study hard.

I don't have much socializng skills, and I just want to do works myself. But, at my school, people ask questions about what's on the tests, so before the test, they basically know like 50-60% of it. For a good example, in APUSH class, the teacher had questions that were EXACTLY from a website...and all the "cool" kids knew about it for weeks. Then the teacher changed tests, but still had some same questions with different wordings...! Teacher knows we know, but s/he still does it. and because we have block schedule, the "cool" kids would know what was on the test by the next day. Like, there is a kid who is getting close to 100%. He would just copy the homework, then talk to people about the tests. I KNOW how smart he is, and he isn't THAT smart. Another kid from another class, for example, has not read A (1!) book but has better grade.

so basically all the cool kids are doing less work, but doing better on tests, and getting higher grades, thus @$%^% my class rank and chance for college.

-> what should I do? should I try to be cool, and be a cheater, and try to get cheap grades? or should I try to be honest student and get not-so-good grades?
-> how would you define cheating? these days, the boundary of the cheating is increasingly burred. where does cheating or "helping" stops, and the personal ability comes in? do you do this type of "helping" or are you a geek who does not let others copy your homework?

to all the "cool" kids: @#$!@!$#!$ (sorry, but WTF)

By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Personally, I wouldn't care so much. You're better off in the long run for not cheating, at somepoint in time, things will catch up to the cheaters. Although, i'd get out in the world and work on your social skills as those will come in very handy in the real world, depending on what you wanna be/do. Don't conform to someone you're not, just keep studying and doing the best you can do. Don't compare yourself to others, as there will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

By Sagrl (Sagrl) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 09:46 pm: Edit

There have been times when I've shared your frustration. I would have to say that I am a geek and would not let anybody copy my homework! However, I think that you can help other students (and be helped) with out cheating. If you are confused about something, ask. Sometimes I find that I understand things better when my friends (who are geeks as well) explain them than when my teachers do. We are always calling each other and comparing percent yield data before our Chemistry labs are due (sometimes you find that you've made a calculation error). We also will get together and study before big tests. It really helps me to get my thoughts more organized and remember the material better. Especially if you have fun while doing it. I guess that most important thing is that you're learning.
Anyway, my point is that you can seek others help without cheating and that you can earn honest grades and do still do well. Hope this helps. Stay strong your morals and good luck with everything!!

By Sagrl (Sagrl) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 09:46 pm: Edit

There have been times when I've shared your frustration. I would have to say that I am a geek and would not let anybody copy my homework! However, I think that you can help other students (and be helped) with out cheating. If you are confused about something, ask. Sometimes I find that I understand things better when my friends (who are geeks as well) explain them than when my teachers do. We are always calling each other and comparing percent yield data before our Chemistry labs are due (sometimes you find that you've made a calculation error). We also will get together and study before big tests. It really helps me to get my thoughts more organized and remember the material better. Especially if you have fun while doing it. I guess that most important thing is that you're learning.
Anyway, my point is that you can seek others help without cheating and that you can earn honest grades and do still do well. Hope this helps. Stay strong your morals and good luck with everything!!

By Sagrl (Sagrl) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 09:48 pm: Edit

opps. Double post.

By Minibrit (Minibrit) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:27 pm: Edit

I say you should tell your teachers about this. IF they are not willing to do anything about this, get administration involved. Be sure to name all the students who are cheating

By Vulcano (Vulcano) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Damn minbrit...what type of values are those? my philosophy teacher gives us worksheets, he knows that 90% of the grade exchanges the sheets that one person does, but he doesnt care. He knows that in the end, they will not know the material and the people who did it will know it. Let them cheat all they want, the benefit you get from doing your work will pay in the long run, which is what really matters.

By Shizzlethenizzl (Shizzlethenizzl) on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 08:14 pm: Edit

thanks for help guys

By Z00b (Z00b) on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Some of the things that happen at my school are just disgusting. I know of someone that knew all of the questions and answers to a chemistry midterm three hours before she took it, by asking everyone who had taken it first period.

What I find most appalling though, is not the amount of cheating going on, or what students will do to improve their grades (I've even heard of two idiots text messaging each other answers during an exam, turning in an older student's paper verbatim, and another who posted computer science webs online... he was caught), but the fact that no one else seems to care.

If I refuse to let others copy off of me, or fail to disclose the test question, I get these looks of scorn, as if I have done a great disservice to the student body.

I know this sounds idealistic, but I truly hope college "honor codes" are actually practiced by students. My father recounts stories of kids trying to copy his work not during high school or undergrad... but during graduate school.

Do what makes you comfortable. Too often I have seen kids help others cheat in the hopes of "becoming cool", but I think the real winners are those who realize that education is not about fooling one's teachers into thinking you are an exceptionally bright and hard-working student. The goal is to become one.

By Iceman370 (Iceman370) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 03:59 am: Edit

doesn't •••• me off, cuz I'm one of those people. look, I know it's annoying to see guys like me squeek by through copying, but the reason we copy is because we aren't "school types." it doesn't mean that we're stupid (I've been a straight A student in the past), it just means that we don't or can't deal with school as well as those who work their way through it can. granted, some people are just lazy, misguided, etc.,. point is that I blame the school system (haha?), and it shouldn't really affect you.

By Nyugrad (Nyugrad) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:20 pm: Edit

I should hope that your doctor is not someone who cheated or "sqeeked" his way through medical school, but earned his way through by learning the material. Don't you??? Iceman, the school system is only partly to blame. The rest should be from one's own work ethic and morals.

By Joel_Set (Joel_Set) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:29 pm: Edit

I feel you.... keep on studying.. do what you are suppose to do and whatnot. Quit your bitching, get the five, and rub it in the teacher's and students' face.

By Gymnasium1 (Gymnasium1) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:49 pm: Edit

To all cheaters out there...cheating is wrong...don't do it...you'll regret it...and oh yeah, don't cut in the lunch line either...thanks.

By Minibrit (Minibrit) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Iceman, if you're not school type, then why cant u settle for a B? huh?

And to the philosophy kid, its these cheaters who end up as valedictorians, its these cheaters who get accepted to IVY league schools and leave honest people in the dust. Who says they wont get far in the long run, they will, what are polititians but cheaters? I say put a stop to it now before this gets more out of control. Its not fair that honest people have to slave over useless work while others just zoom by and get straight As. Lucky for me, at my school the people who cheat still cant manage an A lol.

By Oasis (Oasis) on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 05:01 am: Edit

Sometimes you'll just have to let the cheaters go. You can't really do anything about it, but when time come, things will catch up to the cheaters and they can't cheat their way out anymore.

By Iceman370 (Iceman370) on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 05:10 am: Edit

perhaps I should clarify some things. first off, the only cheating I did was copying homework, never on tests. I'm not a fan of busy work, so sue me (perhaps for medical malpractice later on?).

second, i really doubt that it's easy to squeek by and become a doctor, because they put them through some pretty telling tests. in other words, that comparison is just ridiculous.

thirdly, take EVERYTHING I post light heartedly. more often than not, I'm just being sarcastic or joking.

finally, mini, I DID live with Bs, and even Cs sometimes. assuming things always makes an ass of u (no one makes an ass of me, I'm already one)

By Minibrit (Minibrit) on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 06:52 pm: Edit

IF youre going to get a B or a C anyway then whats the point of cheating huh?

but yeah i figured this post was about test because thats what the main person talked about

By Iceman370 (Iceman370) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 02:06 am: Edit

minibrit, go back to middle school. lemme slow things down for you. I copied homework, and BECAUSE of that I got Bs and Cs. otherwise, my grades would have been LOWER, and therefore I would have failed. failed=bad. understand, or do we need a diagram "huh?"

point is, people who only cheat a little never do all that well in school, so you needn't worry about competing with them, and those that cheat a lot and do well, they'll fail in LIFE. so get over it

By 13351 (13351) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 05:14 am: Edit

Iceman, my deep sympathy for you that you'd fail unless you cheated.and my deeper sympathy for those who actually failed because they did not cheat. You basically screwed your friends. You receieved grades you did not deserve.

and it is true that valedictorians are cheaters. MOST overachievers got like a gang. they got their crowd of friends sharing all vital information. consider this: I know some straight A's since "x" grade people who do dozen sports, clubs, study body gov. how do they do it? go figure.

why are most of us here anyways? to cheat so that we know more than others. to get help on a process to college.
then again, what IS cheating?

By Oasis (Oasis) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 07:10 am: Edit

When all those cheaters cheat their way through high school and college, there will be a time when they cannot cheat anymore. If they become doctors who need to diagnose terminal patients, how can they cheat their way out of that?! There will always be a limit for cheaters. Cheaters may excel at school, but they'll fail in life. Cheaters are in every school. I've experienced more than I ever wanted of them. Sometimes you just have to think of it that way. Getting mad over them is pointless because it's hard to define what is "cheating" anymore, and unless you really catch them in the act, you can never prove they are cheaters. With every system there is always loopholes. People may cheat now, but it's always you that will get the final laugh, not them.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Cheaters really •••• me off. Although I agree with many of your posts about working being more rewarding, etc. I think that sometimes cheaters DON'T get caught and end up doing successfully, which is completely unfair. For instance, a doctor that needs to diagnose a terminal patient can always consult with other doctors, or look up symptoms in a medical book. It's not like they have to know this from memory, except in medical school where that's what they're being tested in. Think Enron, and a dozen other media scandals. Yeah, Enron got caught, but how many others are there that exist that haven't been caught so far? Terminal cheaters really have a lifelong issue.

And what do we mean by cheating anyways? If it's copying off a test, or homework, that's the most obvious form- and something I partially blame on the system- I think teachers need to be more aware of the test-taking dynamics of their classes and respond to it better.

But one girl I know completely took advantage of the teacher. She would go to him and literally cry about how terrible her life was and why she needed the grades. And he would change her grades, give her more credit for something, etc. I consider that cheating too. She's smart- she recognized that this was a naturally gullible, kind-hearted teacher that would fall for something like that. I'm just disgusted at the fact she would take advantage of something like that.

You know what though? To look on the bright side- I think cheaters, not to be cliched and everything, are just hurting themselves. They're denying themselves of learning about and experiencing some pretty useful stuff. They're lazy- and people will recognize that, just like people recognize hard workers among us. Especially now, when we're in school, we're learning working habits that will help us throughout our entire lives. No high-level job can be done without some actual hard work. And you'll already have the advantage of learning how to do that earlier.

And as for cheaters who are brilliant? Well, that's unfair yes, but mostly it's a shame. I seem to recall the movie Gattaca- where that brilliant guy with the amazing genes (forgot his name) couldn't live up to his potential because he got involved in an accident and was handicapped and the main guy who had the heart problem got further than him because he was really dedicated. Yeah, sorry to be vague, I saw it a while ago, but the point is- working hard is rewarding. And cheaters are only missing a great opportunity to tap into the potential of the ones they care about most- themselves.

By Sagrl (Sagrl) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

13351-
"and it is true that valdictorians are cheaters"

Obviously ALL valdictorians are cheaters trying to pad thier resumes. It couldn't be that they -gasp- actually like learning or that they -another gasp- work and study hard. Nah, that couldn't be it.

By Savedbythebell7 (Savedbythebell7) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Some cheaters are probably depressed and think there is no reason to live. Also they look at school work and realize they'll never be able to apply most of it to their lives.

The doctor that always asks questions and has to research stuff on his own, makes for a bad doctor who will eventually be out of job, because his job performance will be horrible. Which goes to show you, if they cheat in Medical school and don't know their stuff, they won't be a doctor for long.

By Minibrit (Minibrit) on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 10:41 pm: Edit

wow thats pretty sad iceman, hw is not that hard to do.

"They're denying themselves of learning about and experiencing some pretty useful stuff. "

but why do we need to learn anyway, no matter how much we know we will all end up dead in the end.

By Oasis (Oasis) on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 05:46 am: Edit

I think that sometimes cheaters DON'T get caught and end up doing successfully, which is completely unfair.

Yes, but getting worked up for it is not much use. What is your chances of changing the system? This is why I have been trying to look on the brighter side because getting worked up for cheaters is basically useless.

By Yellowcard05 (Yellowcard05) on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Yet another reason why our system is so corrupt.

Maybe if school was actually about learning rather than memorizing, cheating would be more difficult. Maybe if we had a system where the goal was to be passionate and excited about what one is learning (imagine that) then there wouldn't be any desire to cheat. Maybe if many of us didn't feel so swamped with work that we could care less about, we wouldn't feel the need to manipulate the system to save time.

I don't cheat, but I can understand the logic behind it (some of the time--I don't understand the kids who do it for shock value or just to push the envelope). Cheaters usually end up getting screwed in some way though. Last year a classmate reworded someone else's book report and passed it in as her own when I spent hours and hours working on mine...30 pages later I got a 99 and she didn't get even close to that. Teachers know when people cheat, they just can't obtain adequate proof most of the time. So if you cheat and don't get caught, don't assume your teacher is just numb because they see it all the time.

By Whatever04 (Whatever04) on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 05:08 pm: Edit

ok...heres my take on things, were you care or not. Minibrit....I agree, ppl..stop being so desperate to get good grades, and have a succesful academic career. All I have to say to you is find your purpose in life and then follow it. It IS as simple as that. If you want to be rich, yes I guess you will need education, but dont be giving me •••••••• how ppl who cheat leave u guys in the dust. I guarantee you if you go home every night and do 2 hrs of homework you WILL get a 4.00 Add reading a book to that and your SAT score will be a 1400. If you dont want to associate and be friendly with cheaters, then ignore them...I'm sure it is possible to get 100%, yes i said 100% on every single test if you truly dedicate yourself to this cause. Nobody can leave you in the dust while you're on top of things. But when you dont know what you want and keek thinking about other ppl's actions and try to find excuses for yourself, then you might not get where you want in life.

To summarize... find what your reason for living is, fulfil it and you're be a happy person.

By E_Charlep2 (E_Charlep2) on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Ok, don't listen to Whatever04, I am sitting next to him and I can tell you he is everything that he dissed in the post. Any ways, to Minibrit all i have to say that that is really morbid for a highschooler. Live a little, to the shizzle... all i have to say is mind your own business. AND to the PBS rejects with their lesson of the day posts, F U.

W T F

By Iceman370 (Iceman370) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 05:19 am: Edit

minibrit, it has nothing to do with difficulty. it's the fact that I've done enough repetative busy work that I'm personally fed up with it. ask me to write a paper, I'll do it. ask me to perform 2 hours of the same math problems...no dice. why should I when I can just study for the test and get a good grade ANYWAY?

that's where the system comes in. I have to do my busywork to pass most of these classes, so I "do." oh, and you can learn nearly as much by cheating as you can through doing it yourself as well. it's basically just cliff notes for your text book, because what you copy is originally out of the text book (ESPECIALLY with history and english).

furthermore, this is really an issue of motivation, not laziness. in my view, I stopped really learning things a few years ago, and the classes just began to rehash themselves. the only classes I really work at are the ones that I actually DO learn something other than what a pronoun is for the umpteenth time (usually an elective).

so if you have such a big issue with the cheaters around you, why don't you do something about it? tattle to your teacher or something, just don't come on here whining like a little girl.

By Plopfkop (Plopfkop) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 01:04 pm: Edit

I don't cheat, it doesn't really work at our school. But I think that if cheating is incredibly widespread, you should cheat. A grade is just a number that people attach to your name. Why let our lives be determined by abstract numbers, often arrived at subjectively? Why should we fail if teachers are having a bad day? Why should we fail if the teacher makes the test too hard and won't curve it? Why should we work and slave so that little, abstract numbers go up? What do they matter? Should our lives be determined by them? So I say "Yes. Cheat!" and don't feel bad about it. Learn if you want to learn, but learn because you want to learn, and not because you're afraid of some numbers.

Lastly I'd like to add an adendum. Only cheat if the chance of being caught * the consequences of being caught are less than the benefit you get from cheating.

By Whatever04 (Whatever04) on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

lol good formula. and i agree about numbers attached to us. Grades dont say how much you know obviously. But, if you get bad grades you wont get into Harvard. If you dont get into Harvard, perhaps you have less of a chance to get a badass job. Since you're admission to college is based on grades, be smart and do whatever u have to do to have em perfect.