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I have read numerous discussions on this board regarding stuy, bx sci, and brooklyn tech v. top boarding schools.

I would like to say that there is absolutely no comparison among the schools. NYC specialized hs is so much better, especially stuy and bx sci.. brooklyn tech doesnt really count - no need to explain why if you go there! =)

Anyway to prove my points why NYC specialized hs is so much better than elite boarding schools. I am gonna take Stuy as an example, mainly cause it is the best specialized school among the three.

1) Highest average SAT - around 1400+, better than any top elite boarding schools.

2) Better college matriculation - each and every year, 20 + to harvard, yale, mit, upenn. 100+, yes over 100 students get into cornell and around 80 gets into columbia! and around 30+ for both darthmouth and brown. Stuy, each and every year gets the most people into harvard, mit, upenn, cornell and columbia. And for princeton they only get a few.. around 12, 13 ( disappointing ,eh?) To sum it all up, they get around 300!!!!! kids into ivy league colleges, by far more than any other HS.

3) To get into Stuy, around 30,000 took the NYC exam and only 800 gets in. That is 3 % acceptance rate! I bet this is way lower than any boarding school.

4) #1 for most students that are intel finalists, and among the top for semi finalists.


Obviously, no other schools can compare to the stats of Stuy, no schools.. not even close.

And yes, Bx Sci has the most noble laureates among all secondary schools! -- The only school in the world that can claim this fact!...

ENOUGH SAID! which schools are superior!

By Jsberting (Jsberting) on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 10:35 pm: Edit

20,000 kid applied... 10,000 kids big difference and ask people about inside the schools heh...

By Islam2nkorea (Islam2nkorea) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 12:07 am: Edit

well i really would love to go to stuy (i live in jersey city, you know where that is right?) anyways i can't because i don't wanna fake my adress and be immoral.
well here i have arguments and agreements
1) this is not true stuy has lower than some boarding schools, state your source
2)the hell did u get this only 4% go to yale harvard or princeton
3) well look at the facts son, my mom is a teacher in nj and they had a thing where nj people evaluated and compared to ny middle schools, everyone knows most of their middleschools fail, most ny kids are stupid, the hawks show their pride in really good high schools(WITH SOME AWARDS TO BACK THEM UP)
4) Intel's not that big try Westinghouse, but still a thing to be proud of, my korean cousins cousin went to Yale from there I heard she had good grades in Stanford as well. You also have to look at the fact there are many good high schools out there that are not as informed, so don't think since u have the most winners you are the best, some people aren't briefed

YES I HAVE BEEN TO ALL THREE BROOKLYN IS JUST HORRIBLE SO IS BRX SCI, BUT STUY ISN'T THAT BAD.... IT IS COMPARED TO THE COASTLINE IT'S ON

Anyways I would really want to go there, but oppurtunity cut me short, and go to hunter hahah won't be barking about college matric there

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Actually it was closer to 30,000 than 20,000.. iI was just estimating

And to Islam2nKorea
1) Yes it is around 1400, go read the NYC annual school reports given by the board of education. It is much higher than all boarding schools.. Just go to their websites and they give u give their sat's grades.

2)Well, for this, you can ask any seniors who go to stuy because they have the statistics acceptance sheets.

3)Ahh, what do most people who are stupid have to do with stuy. If you are stupid u cant get in, duh? It is just like most people who apply to HARVARD ARE DUMB, THEY JUST WONT GET IN...

4) Intel used to be called westinghouse... U a bit outdated.. Intel is considered the junior noble prize award.

And hunter is part of the NYC school system, the reason why i didn't count it is because there are too little people who go there and it is border line public + private school. But, hunter is an outstanding school.

By Maverick27 (Maverick27) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 05:08 pm: Edit

wut are noble laureates

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

"I would like to say that there is absolutely no comparison among the schools. NYC specialized hs is so much better, especially stuy and bx sci..."

excuse me? godforbid someone would want to go to a high school that best suits their own particular interests and needs rather than simply as a ticket for harvard or yale! i don't care how many numbers, statistics, and percentages you throw at people- i've been to public school, prep school, and (briefly) a nyc magnet school, and so far, prep school has been the best experience for me. if some people prefer schools like stuy and bx sci, kudos to them. just don't impose your own school onto others- nobody, not even colleges, likes pushy magnet school students.

By Islam2nkorea (Islam2nkorea) on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 06:22 pm: Edit

If you think intel's award is the nobel peace prize you are horribly wrong, it is the olympiads, in almost all ways

bigblue i cannot go to a boarding school(my father earns 250k hard earned money and i don't get financial aid, even though he pays 40%, and full tuition for two siblings, one of whom had to put down his acceptance from princton because of this very reason) i am thinking of currently applying to a boarding school, but i don't think it's personally a good idea, i think if you go to a non-prep school you have a better chance of getting in, and i think you do more to prepare yourself for college, in the fact you have to do everything to stay on top. i think 35k is a big waste, and i think stuy and hunter would be where i would like my kids to be sent(because NYC is my bride heheh). PREP schools don't have that college matric but i think 35k is a good deal to prepare you for life, living single, having friends you will never meet again in your life, those moral things they are what matter to those kids and that's awsome, but it really kills to know most of these kids aren't close to their parents who are paying to send them Most prep school kids go their for prestige, but once again they are very prepared for life

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 01:52 am: Edit

Oh yeah, another reason why specialized hs is so awesome is cause it is

FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Noble laureates are people who won the noble prize. Bx Science has the most noble laureates in the world, more than any other hs.

Not only would you be academically ready for college when you go to a public hs but you would also be "Street Smart," something you can't really learn by going to a rich prep school.

By Fissionman (Fissionman) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit

correction man, bxscience has the most intel winners

By Exonian04 (Exonian04) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 06:58 pm: Edit

First, you said that "a public hs" will prepare you for college "academically." While I would agree that Stuy does this, not all public schools do.

"there are too little people who go there"
-- Though correct, this ^^^ sentance was poorly phrased and awkward. Are they just physically too small to count or are their too few students for the study? <<This is a good analogy for prep vs. magnet...

The prep school enviroment prepares you for living on your own with your peers (as you will in college) and gain knowledge, while Stuy and other top publics give you information and a good chance at college acceptance.

By Mazzystar (Mazzystar) on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Hmm...can't really give a great opinion on this since I don't live anywhere near NY, but a local top magnet school in the area had an Intel winner, while none of the prep schools here had really nothing.

From an outsiders point of view, I think it matters where you want to go in life, or a person's personal choice.

A prep school is great, and offers the same if not better education academically, but also in life. For a very independent person, a boarding school might just be the perfect thing for them. Not only will they be getting a top education, but a chance to live away from home before college.

On the other hand, for the people who want just the same education but aren't really too hot for the whole boarding experiance, or simply just can't afford it, top magnet schools are a great choice.

And just to let everyone know, not everyone knows about Stuy or the other schools. I really think it's a NE thing, since I (nor anybody I know) had heard of it, and I've lived in two different regions on the US.

Either way, it's a win-win situation. You really can't go wrong on either one of them.

By Exonian04 (Exonian04) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 01:20 am: Edit

When you say "prep school" what do you mean? Not NE Preps right?

By Mazzystar (Mazzystar) on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:43 am: Edit

Yes, I meant NE prep schools.

Hope it wasn't offensive.

Also...ignore the 5th paragraph in my last posting. Just noticed how horrible the grammer was. *cringes*

By Mahras (Mahras) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 01:55 am: Edit

Bxscience has the most nobel prize winners. check www.bxscience.edu and go to alumni. I am a student at bxsci. Wessington stoped sponsering the science contest so Intel does that now. Go to sciserv.org.

By Jsberting (Jsberting) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

wat are the chances of getting into a good college if ur in stuy?

By Mahras (Mahras) on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

really high, stuy sends near 100 kids go to Cornell. Bxsci sends 40 to Cornell. Roughly 25% goes to Ivy and MIT and stanford. The low rankings in HYP is due to the fact that each school houses nearly 3000 kids. However, if you compare the numbers and not the percentiles, Stuy, and Bxsci leads in sending kids to ivy.
Another imortant fact is that the average SAT for stuy is 1450 while Bxsci is 1400 (damnit!!), the top boarding school, Exeter has roughly 1380-1390.
Another important factor is that in the NE prep schools most students are priveleged wealth wise. however, Stuy and Bxsci are public schools. many acceptances are turned down by kids due to the fact that they can't afford it. One in Bxsci in recent years got into Princeton but had to go to Cooper Union (which is great) because he was unable to afford the ivy education.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:12 am: Edit

Look, it all depends on what you want out of high school. If you're a grade-obsessed, Harvard/Yale/Princeton-obsessed, award fiend, fine, maybe magnet schools are for you. As for prep school kids- we already know we're smart, talented, and ambitious. We don't need dozens of little certificates telling us that. Prep school kids go to prep school for the experience, not the awards.

Take it from an insider.

By Evil_Robot (Evil_Robot) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:21 am: Edit

"If you're a grade-obsessed, Harvard/Yale/Princeton-obsessed, award fiend, fine, maybe magnet schools are for you."

Or maybe you just want to actually learn something. There's a thought.

By Worth2try (Worth2try) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:31 am: Edit

We do have more street smarts than people who go to prep schools, that is a given, living in NYC does that to you. This also comes from us not being as rich and a many people are immigrants. Have anyone noticed though that kids in bronx science and stuy have parents who are more financially stable than average NYC parents? Do think about that. Anyway, you can not understand a school from just statistics, bronx science seems so different to me now that I go there than the way I saw it before from rumors.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

"Or maybe you just want to actually learn something. There's a thought. "

Because magnet schools are the only places you can learn ANYTHING, right?

Uh, try again, robot.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

"Or maybe you just want to actually learn something. There's a thought. "

Because magnet schools are the only places you can learn ANYTHING, right?

Uh, try again, robot.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

sorry, double post

By Bmurry (Bmurry) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

I went to Stuy for 9th and my parents moved to Nevada a few weeks before 9/11. It was terrible for me not to be there for my friends although I talked to them all the time on the phone. I know lots of Stuy kids are now getting help for the horrors they witnessed. It was really horrible for me listening to all of it. It seemed so real because I had just left. So how are the colleges handling this? My know GPA sucks because of my 1st semester of 10th grade. A few Stuy friends even came and visted me to 'get away'. It was intense.

So how are the colleges dealing with this? Lower GPA's and kids with issues?

The adcom at Stanford said they were seeing alot of kids who it had these problems.

By Sar (Sar) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Students who were seniors during 9/11 were given a lot of slack. Students who were juniors were not given the preferential treatment that the previous class was given (according to statistics, procedures, and hearsay), as if they were not really in the school until their senior year. But it wouldn't be fair to other high schools if they had been...

I don't know how I got through Junior year with my GPA intact, but most of it seems like a dream. The first and second terms seem like separate years, and it took me two years to finally be able to write coherently about my perspective on 9/11 (or maybe my writing skills just improved enough so I could. lol).

I'm not sure what you mean by "kids with issues." I don't know about any people who are seeking help, so I can't comment on that.

Not sure about economic demographics of the student population... just never came up when I was there.

If the ivies and national awards are all you care about, I don't think you should attend Stuy unless you have very pushy parents; there is a possibility that you will be eaten alive by those who do.

About learning... I believe it can be done with flair and intelligence, no matter what school you attend--as long as you have the motivation to care about what you extract from your resources, and goals to help shape your focus. Apathy is the bane of education (of everything, really).

Erp... success in society is a different matter. To the chagrin of my naive world views, I am finding politics to be a very big part of everything...

By Evil_Robot (Evil_Robot) on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 07:28 pm: Edit

""Or maybe you just want to actually learn something. There's a thought. "

Because magnet schools are the only places you can learn ANYTHING, right?

Uh, try again, robot."

Keep on killing that straw man. It'll get you far in life.

By Babouche (Babouche) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 07:12 am: Edit

Check your facts, NYschools:

St. Paul's Exeter and Andover send more kids to HYP than any other schools in the US, included Stuy bronx.....Moreover, they have sports, clubs....

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

The NYC specialty schools are terrific. But do keep in mind that there are so many New Yorkers and almost every 8th grader has to make a school selection for highschool and many just automatically choose the top three. I know kids who took the exam who did not have a chance in the world but because they could, they did.
When you are dealing with the prep schools, most of the kids are already "pre selected". You just don't bother to go through the very tedious, difficult application process unless you are in the running. You have to visit, call, fill out an app with an essay, take tests, interview. It's like applying to college. That eliminates alot of candidates.
I know that there is a wonderful catholic school in NYC called Regis. They get about 800 kids who go through the app process, but again they are preselected. They have to have a 90% average in grades and in their standardized tests to even get an application. Otherwise many more would apply. My brother who lives in NYC says if you have kids in the city public school system, everyone takes the test. I hear that this year they are changing things so that kids do not get accepted to as many schools, if they get into their first choice, or top choices. I am not putting down Stuy or any of the schools. I am just pointing out why the statistics are what they are.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 01:06 pm: Edit

The NYC specialty schools are terrific. But do keep in mind that there are so many New Yorkers and almost every 8th grader has to make a school selection for highschool and many just automatically choose the top three. I know kids who took the exam who did not have a chance in the world but because they could, they did.
When you are dealing with the prep schools, most of the kids are already "pre selected". You just don't bother to go through the very tedious, difficult application process unless you are in the running. You have to visit, call, fill out an app with an essay, take tests, interview. It's like applying to college. That eliminates alot of candidates.
I know that there is a wonderful catholic school in NYC called Regis. They get about 800 kids who go through the app process, but again they are preselected. They have to have a 90% average in grades and in their standardized tests to even get an application. Otherwise many more would apply. My brother who lives in NYC says if you have kids in the city public school system, everyone takes the test. I hear that this year they are changing things so that kids do not get accepted to as many schools, if they get into their first choice, or top choices. I am not putting down Stuy or any of the schools. I am just pointing out why the statistics are what they are.

By Aab123 (Aab123) on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 03:08 pm: Edit

*horace mann*

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 01:53 am: Edit

quote/
Check your facts, NYschools:

St. Paul's Exeter and Andover send more kids to HYP than any other schools in the US, included Stuy bronx.....Moreover, they have sports, clubs....
/quote
um...yeah. The reason they send so many kids to Ivys is that almost all of the kids there are legacies/big contributors. Exceptions to the rule are token minorities brought in to increase percentages.
Stuy has around 200 clubs/pubs, way more sports than we need (bigger athletic program than most colleges). My only complaints about Stuy would be the class size--way, way too large, the college office--way, way too small, and the MTA for making me late this (in 5 hours) morning, of course.

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 04:52 am: Edit

To Babouche...

You actually think that prep schools will have more clubs/teams than a public high school located in NYC? ...

While it is true that top prep schools admit their students using a college like process, does that mean they admit the brightest students? The answer is NO. One can gain admission because his/her parents are super rich, famous and etc.

Stuy, on the other hand, takes the brightest students, at least those who took the test. There is no other factors to take into account.

One more thing.... STUY IS FREE!!!!! - You can't beat that!

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 01:45 pm: Edit

"You actually think that prep schools will have more clubs/teams than a public high school located in NYC? ... "

Actually, yes they do. Although Stuy has the advantage of being in NYC, prep schools have higher endowments than magnet schoools such as Stuy, thus more funding for clubs and activities. Andover alone has more than 100 different clubs - some of them listed here: http://www.andover.edu/parents/clubsactivities/clubs.htm.

"While it is true that top prep schools admit their students using a college like process, does that mean they admit the brightest students? The answer is NO. One can gain admission because his/her parents are super rich, famous and etc."

This is a huge generalization, and obviously underestimates the prep school application process. All applicants to boarding schools such as Andover, Exeter, etc. must also take a standardized test- the SSAT, and while there is not cutoff, it can be compared to the SAT, which colleges take into great consideration. Besides, if one student is extremely bright, yet happens to be a poor test taker, the admissions process to magnet schools is already unbalanced, favoring good test takers. Prep schools take a number of factors into consideration. Check your information, because we have some of the best, the brightest, and the most talented kids in the nation, and world, for that matter.

And as for cost? I can think of a dozen kids who could go to a second tier college for free, or a first rate college for full cost, and choose the first rate college every time. Yeah, Stuy may be free but the experience of going to prep school is priceless.

By Babouche (Babouche) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Nycschoolss: as far as boarding schools is concerned, you are clueless. My son has 5 teachers all with PHD, the humanity course is at college level. Sure you have different level of academics, but the kid at a boarding school taking regular algebra is probably an accomplished musician or artist. Every single student has something to offer.
My daughter is a freshman at MIT, and according to her the kids from Horace Mann and Stuy are overwhelmed and above all they are completely lost because it's their first time away from home

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 03:30 pm: Edit

To BigBlue - Read alphachimp's post about extracurricular activities.
http://studentgov.stuy.edu/cp/cp/view.php

As you can see from the above link.. Stuy has way way more clubs...

How can one be consider "bright" if they suck at test taking.. it doesn't make any sense. Our school grades are based on TESTS!!!!! That is why I dont buy into the fact that kids MAY smart if they suck at test taking. How can one know you are actually smart if you can't even simply show it by taking a test? Isn't an IQ test a test? .....

To Babouche - True to the fact that I am clueless about boarding schools - But it seems to me that you are clueless about NYC specialized HS as well. Why would MIT keep accepting many students from STUy(Most in the nation) if they see a repeating trend that Stuy kids are "completely lost" in school? Who knows, maybe your daughter might know more about Stuy kids than the admission officers do.

By College4u (College4u) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit

*lol* As a Bronx Science graduate, I think my alma mater is the best - purely subjective. I can also identify the NobEL prize and its winners. I have a best friend from Brooklyn Tech, younger cousin at Hotchkiss and a friend that graduated from Kent. Basically - all we have in common is that we're fairly decent students of middle class households. Neither rich nor poor.

Extremely bright students usually go to great schools, be they public or private. Rich kids *don't* always get to go where they want to, although it seems that they do - and conversely, poor kids are not always shut out of highly prized admissions.

I would say that the determining factor is knowledge of your options, and your parents' involvement in the acheivement of your academic goals. Lord knows my mom dragged me to that entrance exam kicking and screaming. I had no idea at the time that people would still gasp 11 years later when I tell them I went to Science.

The point is that good, better, and best are all relative. Moreover, admission to a major research university is not the optimal choice for everyone. The success and development of the student is much more important than the name-dropping power of the graduating institution.

By Stuyalum (Stuyalum) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Just to add fuel to the fire, children of US Senators have matriculated / are matriculating at Stuy. Why they chose to attend Stuy rather than a private/boarding school is an interesting question.

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 11:59 pm: Edit

I'm proud of the NYC Science High Schools for helping to show the world that you do not have to be wealthy to succeed in life. Oh yeah, and stuy has more clubs/pubs than any other high school. Check out that site linked to above.

Babouche, you have some interesting points. First off, the PhDs go to the places with all of the money---hence, prep schools. (btw, most of my teachers have them too, except the difference is that they are working off the pittance NYC teacher salary). In fact, many Stuy teachers have a side job: they teach college in the evenings. You say that the humanity course is at college level. At Stuyvesant, nearly every course is taught at college level. All AP courses (except for one history and one art, I think) are offered. Since the AP curriculum is not adequate, however, Stuy also offers courses in excess of them (like "Engineering Statics and Dynamics" and "Multivariate Calculus").

You also say that:
"My daughter is a freshman at MIT, and according to her the kids from Horace Mann and Stuy are overwhelmed and above all they are completely lost because it's their first time away from home."
First off, most stuy kids are not wealthy and have not had the privilege of travelling, and, hence, it is their first time away from home. Surely one cannot criticize them for that. Stuy kids are overwhelmed? Yup, that would be true. Stuy kids are always overwhelmed, and that's when they do their best work (u should have seen Stuy around when Intels were due).

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 03:05 am: Edit

To BigBlue04 -

"And as for cost? I can think of a dozen kids who could go to a second tier college for free, or a first rate college for full cost, and choose the first rate college every time. Yeah, Stuy may be free but the experience of going to prep school is priceless. "

Well, that is true but....
I Don't think Stuy is a "second tier" school. Stuy is defintely in the elite group of top tier schools and the education thereis free. I am just saying that you may be paying over $20,000 in top boarding schools and wont even receive the education comparable to Stuy.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 01:50 pm: Edit

nycschool- from the looks of the link, it not only appears that the Stuy clubs aren't as numerous, but not as organized either.Besides, I've personally been to a specialized hs myself (9th grade) and can vouch for the fact that prep schools have more resources. Until you've been to prep school, you couldn't possibly consider yourself an authority on any aspect of prep school life.

"How can one be consider "bright" if they suck at test taking.. it doesn't make any sense. " Clearly you haven't met the hundreds- no- thousands of kids that get nervous during tests, thus affecting their ability to think and concentrate. One of my own friends who attends MIT now, who was an Intel semi-finalist and took bc calculus in 9th grade did horribly on his SAT's, yet was still admitted into MIT because other factors were considered. You can't compress a student's entire academic and personal life into one two or three hour test. The bottom line- it's NOT all about tests.

"Why would MIT keep accepting many students from STUy(Most in the nation) if they see a repeating trend that Stuy kids are "completely lost" in school?" MIT does not take as much responsibility for kids' happiness (one of the highest suicide rates in the country) as it does for their future potential. True, kids from Stuy (and prep school) may both be at an equal academic level, but if one adapts better to living away from home due to previous experience, that makes all the difference in the world, in terms of being happy there.

Let me establish that in no way is this a put-down to specialized hs's like Stuy or BX. For many, it's a very convenient and excellent option in secondary school choice. However, you can't in any way, speak about its "superiority" until you've seen both sides of the situation.

By Sar (Sar) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

If I'd gone to a boarding school, or even just a regular high school, I'd speak well of it, too.

But since I didn't... STUY ROCKS!!!

Btw, City College isn't half as bad as lotsa people in Stuy think it is. /me ducks

By Babouche (Babouche) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Alphachimp: My daughter is tutoring those two girls in Calculus....They told her that the AP Math at Stuy and Horace Mann was a joke. Since they were seniors, teachers didn't bother and there was a lot of cheating going on.
Finally, her roomate comes from Andover and she told us the same thing: let's face it public schools don't prepare well and it is most noticeable in the classroom at MIT.

By College4u (College4u) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Babouche:

Cheaters don't attend prep school? Certainly schools with better financial resources and facilities will prepare students in *SOME* ways for attending high profile schools. Similar culture and all that.

I can't agree that public schools on the whole don't prepare students well. See also: the pitiful salary of public school teachers. It's easy to continue to teach engaging and stimulating courses when you can pay your bills without going into the red. The fact that those underprepared girls from Stuy that your daughter is tutoring also attend MIT proves that the system did something right.

On a side note from a student services professional - more students would seek out tutoring and related services if they didn't think they'd be looked down upon or seen as overall inadequate because they have a need.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

...?

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit

To BigBlue - Everything we do in life is based on tests and performances. I am sure your friend who attends MIT did very well on his SAT's and most importantly had a very high GPA. And those two factors are key reasons why he got into MIT. Even Colleges admit they dont take the "brightest" students because they are looking for diversity!

To Babouche - Well the best thing about Stuy is the students. It seems like all prep schools talk about their faculty, finanacial resources and etc and forget about the students. This is what makes Stuy so impressive. Even though they suck in everything else like teachers, or facilities, the Students in the school make up for those. They are the ones teaching themselves.
And you know what is funny? If the Stuy kid or the horace mann kid can get into MIT, I am sure they are well prepared academically.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Nycschool- Um, I think I'd know whether or not my friend did well on the SAT's and "1250" is not exactly superb. Yet he still got in, and isn't the only one to get into a good school with less-than-stellar standardized test performances. Don't believe me? Ask your local college admissions official.

Secondly, those "two factors" are two things that Stuy and other schools wouldn't have taken into consideration. Yes, it's true- colleges don't automatically take the brightest students- they take the ones that they think are well-rounded, interesting, have great potential, and show a true enthusiasm for learning. That is where I think values differ. Prep schools aren't interested in filling their schools with a bunch of geniuses who go around reciting math equations all day, which was, frankly pretty much atmosphere I felt at my magnet ninth grade school. Prep schools, like colleges, want more than just numbers. They try to see the person behind the scores. This way, it's not ALL based on just one stupid test that won't even matter in ten, twenty years anyway.

And finally, in defense of prep school students- I go to prep school and I am telling you now that I am impressed daily by my peers. They are intelligent, diverse, fascinating kids. One student, for example, gave a presentation on student apathy in American politics today, based on a research project he did over the summer. The captain of the varsity lacrosse team also speaks chinese fluently. One of my dorm mates, who is related to one of the most famous musicians in the world is without doubt, the funniest person in the dorm. I learn things from my fellow students daily.

And the best part is, everyone is down to earth as well. You could have an entire political debate with someone over dinner before realizing they're the child of a senator, or public official. There's a reason why my best friend's father still talks to his old friends from prep school- and that is because you make friends there that last a lifetime.

Prep schools have something to offer that is different from even the best public, and specialized schools. I'd advise you to research more carefully before making more unsupported claims.

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 11:36 pm: Edit

BigBlue04 - All I am claiming is that kids from Stuy are better than the kids from prep school academically.

Secondly - It is quite funny when you say "The captain of the varsity lacrosse team also speaks chinese fluently." - Heck, I also speak Chinese fluently as well. Knowing another language isn't amazin, maybe if he knows like 5+ languages fluently, that is amazin. And for the diversity part - Stuy has 50% asians in the school! hard to be more diverse than that.

Thirdly - If Stuy kids were as rich as prep school kids, damn their college matriculation into elite schools will be out of this world.

So, how did your friend get into MIT without a stellar GPA or SAT? Was it cause his family is super rich/famous?

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit

Babouche said:
"Alphachimp: My daughter is tutoring those two girls in Calculus....They told her that the AP Math at Stuy and Horace Mann was a joke. Since they were seniors, teachers didn't bother and there was a lot of cheating going on.
Finally, her roomate comes from Andover and she told us the same thing: let's face it public schools don't prepare well and it is most noticeable in the classroom at MIT. "

I'm in AP math right now at Stuy (actually I've finished Calculus and am in Stats), and I can personally attest that our math is not "a joke". Perhaps that is why so many Stuy kids take Calculus (over 500 a year) and Stuy kids consistently do well on AP exams. The opinion of one student from Stuyvesant bears little relevance to the quality of one school's overall curriculum (so I just cancelled her out =)). I'm inclined to believe that this girl slacked off during the second term of her senior year, as is common after being accepted in college.

"Public schools dont prepare well." Maybe that's why Stuyvesant consistently turns out some of the top minds in the city, the country, and the world. True, they may not have the connections of those who attend preperatory academies, but they graduate with something more: the knowledge that they earned their diploma themselves, and that their income had no part in that process. That is something a prep school could never offer.

BigBlue04: "I go to prep school and I am telling you now that I am impressed daily by my peers. They are intelligent, diverse, fascinating kids. One student, for example, gave a presentation on student apathy in American politics today, based on a research project he did over the summer. The captain of the varsity lacrosse team also speaks chinese fluently. One of my dorm mates, who is related to one of the most famous musicians in the world is without doubt, the funniest person in the dorm. I learn things from my fellow students daily."

I like how Bigblue04 makes these all seem like huge accomplishments. The fact that the team captain speaks Chinese is an excellent testament to either his expensive tutor or his Asian background. A kid is funny... wow... what seems more important though is his relation to the famous musician. The kid who did research on apathy over the summer... well I wont even bother with that one.

My point is not to diminish the multi-dimensionality of your fellow students. Sure, they are many sided people, and that is great. But we have to realize that Stuy students are not one-dimensional either. All have passions and other solid interests. They go to labs and pursue scientific research. They edit countless school publications. They plead cases before mock courts. Stuy students manage to achieve more, even with far less monetary resources.

Once again, the prep school advocates have skirted around one thing, but what is perhaps a favorite thing: money and power. It is those two elements that set them apart from the students that attend Stuy. I would like to see a response to that.

By Islam2nkorea (Islam2nkorea) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 01:12 am: Edit

Yes I couldn't have said it better that kids who can't dish out 40k a year, and have a chauffer pick them up and drop them off actually do better, i get up for school at 5 i come back at 5-6:45 everyday and I study until 1-2. I think people who think MY PARENTS are counting on me, and they are physically there to support you do much better.
PREPSTERS are getting pissed because they are giving 30k when there is a better for free that's a good thing

By Mazzystar (Mazzystar) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Dude, everyone needs to get over it.

Both schools are good. Everyone is getting a great education, and some people just fit better in a boarding school then at a public school.

And not all prep schools are those huge fancy 30k ones in the NE. I go to the top prep school in my state, and I admit it, it's NOTHING compared to the top magnet school, Du Pont Manual. (look it up, that school is great)

Here's the thing though, I've been to Du Pont, and I honestly felt that I didn't fit there. Yes, it may be a great, no, AWESOME school, and it had an Intel winner from their MST program. Manual's only downfall is that its ghetto. and scary. I'm talking like drug dealings happening in the middle of the hallway. These are beside the point, but here is my point:

How many of you have heard of Du Pont Manual? It's supposedly a nationaly ranked school, and very famous in the Kentuckiana, Ohio Valley area, but outside of it, very few many know about their award winning Math Scienece Technology program.

There are other schools out there is what I think I'm trying to say. I've read every post in this thread and I guess I'm just giving my un-biased opinion because I am not from the northeast and have never seen nor heard of Stuy or Andover until recently. They only have relevence in the NE it seems, and I wish you guys would realize theres more out there than high school. If you attend Stuy or BxScience you are getting an awesome education for free! The only downfall is that, it being public, there are obviously going to be some problems.
For the kids at boarding school, you're getting a great education also. Of course you'll adjust better to dorm life in college, it's a given, but stop dissing the public schools. Not everyone can afford the prep-school experiance.

I just don't see why there is a reason to argue. Get on with your lives and instead of telling each other how great it is, show each other. You don't get how many people from other parts of the country would give anything to be in either one of your shoes. Be grateful and stop ragging on other schools.

Sorry if that wasn't in anyway coherent, but I felt that whatever I said had to be said.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 03:10 pm: Edit

nyschool:

"Secondly - It is quite funny when you say "The captain of the varsity lacrosse team also speaks chinese fluently." - Heck, I also speak Chinese fluently as well." Obviously, that's just an example. I consider it an accomplishment for a very preppy, very Caucasian student to master an Eastern language. My point was only to prove that while students are very accomplished and talented, they are down to earth as well. I could give other examples, but I think it's frankly a waste of time to try and prove that prep school kids can gain admission based on their own merit and not daddy's money or connections. It's the truth, and whether or not you accept it, that doesn't change the fact that 30% of students at my school have financial aid and 90% have no particularly important connections either.

"All I am claiming is that kids from Stuy are better than the kids from prep school academically. " Again, not true at all. It doesn't matter how many numbers you throw out- I know over a hundred freshman at ivies now (from prep school AND from my old public school) and everyone agrees that the prep school kids are better prepared. Prep school academics are extremely difficult and intense, and often kids come here because the academic atmosphere at their own schools wasn't stimulating enough.

"If Stuy kids were as rich as prep school kids, damn their college matriculation into elite schools will be out of this world. " Guess what? I know rich people who go to Stuy, I know not-as-rich people who go here. Admissions is based on a NEED-BLIND basis, which means admissions officials don't look at if you can pay or not during the admissions process. One of my friends also went to Stuy, and then here, so that says nothing about Stuy. Yeah, maybe if you donate a building to the school, that'll help your chances for admission, but most kids here don't, and aren't wealthy enough too. You're looking at the stereotypical minority.

"So, how did your friend get into MIT without a stellar GPA or SAT? Was it cause his family is super rich/famous?" No, his family is not super rich or super famous. He's simply a really great guy- interesting, well-read, and passionate about learning, as evidenced by his many extracurrics. He is one of the smartest people i know, but if MIT had only looked at a test he got nervous on, he might not be there now.

Alphachimp:

"I like how Bigblue04 makes these all seem like huge accomplishments. The fact that the team captain speaks Chinese is an excellent testament to either his expensive tutor or his Asian background. A kid is funny... wow... what seems more important though is his relation to the famous musician. The kid who did research on apathy over the summer... well I wont even bother with that one. " First of all, the lacrosse player is neither Asian nor does he have a tutor- he just works his a** off to get the good grades he does, while juggling lacrosse, community service, editing the sports section of the newspaper, and a number of other commitments. These ARE in fact, big accomplishments since the workload at prep school is heavier than the workload at ANY public school, and thus harder to make free time to do these things. As I wrote in response to nyschool, I'm not going to throw a bunch of awards and achievements kids accomplish here because that is not the point. The point is not that prep school kids win more awards than public school kids, or are superior in any way, but just that the experience is definitely different, and more intense, (and personally more rewarding) than any magnet school. I KNOW kids from Stuy are multi-dimensional. I KNOW they're smart. I'm just saying no Stuy kid who hasn't been to prep school himself has the right to equate magnet school experience with prep school experience, as the two are vastly different. And we don't need a piece of paper framed on the wall to prove it, either.

"Once again, the prep school advocates have skirted around one thing, but what is perhaps a favorite thing: money and power. It is those two elements that set them apart from the students that attend Stuy. I would like to see a response to that." Money and power? Please. That sounds like a huge stereotype to me. Do all Harvard and Yale students have huge amounts of money and power? Maybe fifty years ago, but not anymore. In the same trend, prep schools are now also seeking students for their own merit. All those things Stuy students do? Going to labs, doing research, editing publications, pleading cases before mock courts, prep school students do as well, and while they are better equipped monetarily (as in the school's endowment, not their own personal finances), they often have far less time than public school students. Don't even bother giving the few, rare examples where prep school students get in because of financial power and/or connections, because those are few and far in between.

I find it personally quite amusing that you two feel you're the authority on prep school, when you haven't actually been there yourself. I never said prep school was better than magnet school. I said it before, and I'll say it again- hell, I WENT to magnet school. It just wasn't for me. I have two actual experiences and several hundreds of my peers' to base my opinion upon. You only have one, and a number of media-hyped stereotypes and images of prep school, most of which are untrue. Can a bright student who went to magnet school still win Intel, go to Harvard, and win a Nobel Prize by forty just as easily as he might have at prep school? Sure. But here's the difference- you don't use prep school as a stepping-stone to higher awards- you go there for the environment and the experience.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:17 pm: Edit

nice argument.

now my 2 cents.

tech sucks. period. it's overcrowded and not even that good of a school.

and i have a friend at stuy. i discovered that my AP Cal class is 2 topics ahead of his. that tells you something...

And My NYC High School Rankings!

Public:

Stuyvesant
Bronx High School Of Science
Townsend Harris
Brooklyn Technical High School (Sorry tech sucks and is overcrowded)

Catholic:

Regis
Archbishop Molloy High School (MY HIGH SCHOOL!)
St. Francis Preperatory High School
Xavier High School

P.S. - I got into bronx, but chose not to go (The idea of waking up 5:15 in the morning to take the train didnt appeal to me). No stuy though. (Wouldn't have gone anyway - too much asian [or 'azn'?]...not that i'm racist, i'm asian too)

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:37 pm: Edit

"too much asian"...lol I have Asian friends that say that. I had the "privilege" of attending Tech for three weeks following 9/11 and would completely agree that it is quite overcrowded and probably sucks...btw..sorry to make you techies wake up so early.

The fact that your AP Calc class is ahead of one particular Stuy class indicates that one of the following is true:
a) your teacher may cover material very quickly
b) stuy may have covered additional material
c) the stuy teacher isnt very good(honestly I dont know of calc teachers that arent, but whatever)
d) your teacher is amazing...
Remember, however, that Stuyvesant has many calculus teachers and many more calculus classes. The performance of one class or student (as was cited by Babouche) should not be considered an indicator of the overall performance of a school. lol do a stat confidence interval on that data with any certainty above 95% and ull see what I mean.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:56 pm: Edit

stuy prides themselves in mathematics and science..

thus, their AP Calculus class would have the BEST math students of the best math school in the city.

In other words, the cream of the crop...

And for my school to be two topics ahead of theirs, is something...(also may explain why average grade in my class is 85)

And we both use the same textbook so its not like they covered additional material.

Seems like we beat them at their own game

And Stuy sends 97.5% of grads to 4-year college. We send 99%.

(And our sports teams are better)

By Vegangirl (Vegangirl) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:57 pm: Edit

different strokes for different folks...

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

To BigBlue - "If Stuy kids were as rich as prep school kids, damn their college matriculation into elite schools will be out of this world. " Guess what? I know rich people who go to Stuy, I know not-as-rich people who go here. Admissions is based on a NEED-BLIND basis, which means admissions officials don't look at if you can pay or not during the admissions process. One of my friends also went to Stuy, and then here, so that says nothing about Stuy. Yeah, maybe if you donate a building to the school, that'll help your chances for admission, but most kids here don't, and aren't wealthy enough too. You're looking at the stereotypical minority."

Obviously not all kids in Stuy are completely poor, but the majority are. What i meant was that money is a problem for the majority of the STuy kids and not the prep school kids. Many kids acutally do not end up going to or applying to ivy league caliber schools becasue of financial problems even if they have the grades/ec's to go with it. They think twice about it, and often choose the second tier schools because of its free education and such. I am sure that prep school kids don't even look at good public state schools. If they get into ivy league schools, they are in! But, many Stuy kids simply cant afford the education. Getting into a school is one thing, paying for it is completely different, which aint a problem for prep school people. To have an impressive college matriculation to elite schools says alot about Stuy.


To Nycneedhelp - "and i have a friend at stuy. i discovered that my AP Cal class is 2 topics ahead of his. that tells you something..."

I have many friends who go to Stuya nd Bxscience. A BxScience guy is way faster in his Calculus BC class than my Stuy friend. The BxScience kid said that his teacher is insanely difficult and gives alot of work. On the other hand, the stuy kid said his teacher is pretty easy and likes to move nice and slow. - Does this mean that BxScience is better than Stuy? NO, STuy in my opinion is way better than BXScience. Like I said before, the KIDS make the school, not the facility or TEACHERS!!!!!!!!!!!

And Stop complaining about "TOO many ASIANS." Isn't it ironic that many schools want nice diverse student body, yet in the case of Stuy and BxScience, it is the opposite...

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

To NYCNeedHelp - "And Stuy sends 97.5% of grads to 4-year college. We send 99%." I am sure that Stuy sends over 99%, closer to 100%.

And secondly, you didn't even get into Stuy but got into your catholic school. How can you say Stuy is worst than your catholic school when you didn't even GET INTO IT!!!!!!!!!!

and thirdly "thus, their AP Calculus class would have the BEST math students of the best math school in the city." - They also pride themselves in humanity and social science, as their debate team are nationally recognized and won many national awards. Go to their website and check it out, under FAQ.

By Mahras (Mahras) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 08:11 pm: Edit

LET ME CLARIFY ONE THING:

97.5 % GRADS GO TO COLLEGE BECAUSE *drumroll* THE REST 2.5% DROPOUT BEFORE 10th GRADE. MANY KIDS TRANSFER OUT AUSE THEY CAN'T TAKE THE HEAT SO YES THE CHICKENS MAKE THE % WE SEND TO COLLEGE A 97.5%. HOWEVER, THAT MEANs WE HAVE A 100 or NEAR 100% KIDS GOING TO COLLEGE. THEREFORE, NEARLY ALL KIDS GRADUATING GO TO COLLEGE.

P.S. AND THE SOURCE for the 2.5% TRANSFER RATE IS THE OFFICIAL NYC HIGH SCHOOL DIRECTORY.

P.S.2) THIS IS GETTING TO A RATHER LAME DEBATE JUST MY OPINION

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 10:13 pm: Edit

to mahras (and others)

http://www.nycenet.edu/daa/Asr/Data/hshtml/171475ASRHS0102HTM/171475.htm

see this is the profile of the 2002 GRADUATES!!! NOT 9th GRADERS! this means that 97.5% of the GRADUATES go on to 4 year college!! and 2.2% dont!

see...how can a GRADUATE TRANSFER OUT?!


and stuy i supposed to prepare kids for interaction in the real world?! im sorry, but the real world ISNT made up of a bunch of techies...and the real world ISNT 40% asian, unlike stuy...

and your sports teams are garbage compared to ours.

By Zero2029 (Zero2029) on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Yeah, the BC Calc teachers at Stuy aren't stellar. Multivariable/diff eq is where it's at.

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 12:01 am: Edit

ever heard of taking a year off, nycneedhelp? Because that isnt going to college, last time I checked.
Um no our sports teams arent garbage compared to yours. They are actually better than yours.
AP Stat is good at Stuy too.

By Mazzystar (Mazzystar) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 12:37 am: Edit

different strokes for different folks...

Exactly

By Nycschoolss (Nycschoolss) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 03:44 am: Edit

Nycneedhelp - Your school isn't anywhere close to Stuy academically so I dont want to have this debate because Stuy is better hands down. Just a few things i noticed right off the bat from your school's website - your school offers around 10 APs compared to Stuy's 55! And your school's highest math course is Caculus BC compared to Stuy's mutivariable calculus and differential equation. Funny how you said before that Stuy's math courses were inferior to yours. And thirdly, your school seems to compete competitively in the State level while Stuy not only competes in the nation level but wins many many majors awards doing so.

And before, alphrachimp was right. People in stuy take a year off to travel and such before they start college. Even Harvard recommends that. That falls into the category of others.

AHHH do you realize that your school only has ......... 11, yeah 11 sports teams. Enough said!

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 10:34 am: Edit

"Obviously not all kids in Stuy are completely poor, but the majority are." What? From the 50+ kids I know who go there, most are doing fairly well and, if admitted into a top-tier school, would immediately withdraw all applications to state schools. I think you're misunderstanding the prep school student body. Yes, most of the students are fairly well off and can pay for prep school and an ivy league education BUT there are also those I know that are on financial aid and can barely afford a laptop computer, not to mention a full four years' tuition. The image of the "poor student" who struggled and made it big because of courage and determination is all very idealistic, (and capitalistic) but a largely untrue stereotype of Stuy students. Most of Stuy kids' parents are middle-class, academically-oriented parents who are selecting an excellent option for secondary education for their children. Although Stuy is more vocational (thus "specialized") you can't possibly compare it to prep school through number of clubs, sports teams, or any matriculation data, because the goals are different.

And "THIS IS GETTING TO A RATHER LAME DEBATE" - I agree. Can we stop arguing about minute details already? Just as long as you are happy with your school, that's great. Just don't get a superiority complex about it.

By Nycneedhelp (Nycneedhelp) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 11:59 am: Edit

I never said My school was better than stuy dumbass

But we are the best school on the east side of the east river

I just said stuy's not all it's cracked up to be...

And it's not the amount of sports teams, but the quality dumbass...


I'm sorry, but our Varsity Basketball team (among others) could beat your "C-division" team's sorry ass any day

and our science olympiad team beat yours last year...and the year before...so EAT IT

By Islam2nkorea (Islam2nkorea) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 01:21 pm: Edit

don't kill your schools name by being a Fag0ot, WE'LL SEE WHICH COLLEE YOU GO TO


PS everyone knows 99% of NY kds are dumb@$$es, numbers dont really matter when therfe is no competition

BUT "NOOOOOOO WAIT" u say! There is a lot of compeition........ please man step into MA, or NJ and you kids would die, why I say this? Because you are making this thread into a rant, when in reality you would be wiped off the floor, why don't you get it those awards mean nothing becausethere are so many kids who just aren't participating

By Sar (Sar) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit

If we don't participate, we don't need or deserve the awards. If others get awards, more power to them, and I hope they get the best. Awards are meant to recognize. Recognition is not meaningless, but neither is it everything. Those who seek recognition early in life are more likely to become the "movers and shakers of society"--even if it's only because they have more pushy parents, or a more motivational upbringing.

"different strokes for different folks...
"Exactly"

Agreed. ^_^

By Blane1086 (Blane1086) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 03:21 pm: Edit

And here's what I think. Once you get in to college, no one cares which high school you went to. What matters is that you did well enough to get into college. So if Stuy works for you, great. If Exeter, Deerfield, Andover, etc. work for you, then that's good too. Also, its the individual that matters, not the institution. Those of us who do well probably would do so anywhere. And those who don't do well don't change their work ethic based on their location. So remember, your idea of the ideal high school (be it NYC schools or NE boarding schools) might not be the same for everyone, so don't bash other peoples' opinions.

By Obiwan (Obiwan) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Islam2NK & NYCNEEDSHELPBAD: Warning: dial back the attitude and language FAST. I2K, you've been warned before and if I weren't so benevolent you would be banned now. Neither "dumbass" or "faggot" are acceptable on CC. If you can't live with that fact, you will live without access to CC.

Islam2NorthKorea, be very very careful about the attitude in your posts. If I keep having to make judgment calls when people complain, it's easier to just ban you.

--Moderator Obiwan

By Cchopeful08 (Cchopeful08) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 05:26 pm: Edit

hi, I'm a senior at Regis High School. I cant really compare it to other high schools, because i've never taken classes outside of my own. It is Catholic, but theres none of that strict dogma feel to it. All i can say is that I really loved it there. The people and classes were awesome. if anyone has any questions, feel free.

By Cybernetica (Cybernetica) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 07:05 pm: Edit

This is a rather funny argument from the perspective of an outsider. (Though I must admit it is good excercise in composition/rhetoric/logical fallacy to see how the arguments are played out.)

I am not going to attempt to unweave this ugly web of point-counterpoint-nopoint, but I would like to plot out at least one twist of the Minotaur's maze you seem to have thus far neglected:

The subtler issues of monetary and political influence in modern-day highschool/undergrad admissions hawking contsets.

Big blue (who obviously is very talented at subtly alluding to his high school affiliations :-) ) correctly points out that, at least, in theory most college admissions (and elite private/prep school) decisions are "need blind."

(I say in theory because there has been much controversy in recent times as to, amidst the threat of shrinking endowments, admissions officers at the less-well-endowed universities of the U.S. can still really afford to keep need out of the picture...not to mention the already "official" need-sensitive admission policies behind international applicants at some selective universities and at many boarding schools as well...all these issues are, however, beyond the scope of this short internet post)

Nevertheless, monetary affluence and/or the right social standing can benefit students applying to selective institutions at a non-graduate level in numerous concrete ways.

At a most, vulgar level, consider the development issue. There is always a price for which admission can be bought...no matter how insanely high or creative. If for example, I were to call Harvard tommorow and offer them several billion dollars of development money alongside a well-funded, strategically planned media blitz to increase their endowments, with their only obligation in return to admit my son (who of course has say a 1300 on his sat, no criminal record, and no disciplinary record)...the odds of my being turned down are quite minimal. The costs-benefits analysis is just simply too great for any one, even be they one of the most haloed academic institutions in America.

Without wanting to be offensive, if even Harvard can be bought out, it is only a logical conclusion that...given the right connections and creative carrot-dangling...it is not impossible to imagine an average student receiving priority admission to even Andover or Exter. Certainly the endowments, faculties, and academic/social presige of these institutions exceeds that of most universities in the U.S., but that does mean they don't have a price tag. It is unlikely that if I cruedly called and offered to build a building on the scale of Exeter's relatively new science building (with the marine biology aquarium and blue whale in the entrance) in exchange for immediate admission by my son I would get anything more than a dial tone. But given a bit of SAT tutoring for my children (and some grade influence on their middle school teachers due to my elaborate PTO contributions), given a little bit of essay training, PLUS a bit of socialization at the NYC Harvard Club courtesy of my business real estate development partner alumnus (leading to contact with someone who has a son at exter...then someone on teh development committee members), it is hardly unforeseeable that I could not rocket my average kid to the top of a competitive admissions list.

I won't get started on the inherent psychosociological advantages most kids from certain backgrounds have in these processes (i.e. knowing to list their parents job in vague terms so they seem underpriviledged) because I have to get back to my work. Still, you guys should truly realize that, surprisingly enough, your analysis of this debate is incredibly simplistic and demonstrates none of the capacities of consideration of subtletie and minor factors of influence I would expect students from such prestigous public and private schools as yours to inevitably display.

(Maybe that's just another example...the system isn't what it's cracked up to be).

If I have time later tonight or tommorow, I'll become and continue my argument/train of thought.

Best,
Cybernetica

By Islam2nkorea (Islam2nkorea) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 07:21 pm: Edit

cybernetica do you think anyone will really read that LOL?

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 08:16 pm: Edit

i read it...I have some objections, I think, but I have to step out...will post more later

Thank you Obiwan.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Cybernetica-

You're absolutely right. I think that pretty much any American institution can be bought out, no matter how subtlely, and a student who has the money to pay for piano/French/ice-skating/tennis/SAT lessons definitely has an advantage over a less-privileged student. And I also agree that, at this point, many prep school students are still better off than some peers at magnet schools.

However, think of Harvard and Yale in the fifties. Unmistakably elite, with WASPY bluebloods composing their student bodies, the token "scholarship kid" was rare, and often socially ostracized. Now though, Harvard and Yale have transformed their image to truly academic institutions, filled with some of tomorrow's greatest leaders.

Granted, it has taken a while for the media image to catch up with Harvard and Yale's reforms- over fifty years, in fact. And my grandparents still think of Harvard as rather preppy and elitist. Also, I'm sure they wouldn't refuse the generous offer that you suggested in your post. That though, has become the minority- and now, instead of saying, "You go to Harvard? Oh, you must be rich," people say, "You go to Harvard? Oh you must be smart."

I think that prep schools are trying to follow this trend in making excellent education available to those who deserve it, not just those who can buy it. Unfortunately, due to outdated stereotypes of prep schools portrayed in movies like "School Ties," or "Skulls," Hollywood- and the general public, for that matter- has yet to realize that prep schools are truly making an attempt to change their images and seek students who seek an education, not a finishing school.

Going back to the financial matters though, the fact remains that the majority of prep school students are in a comfortable socioeconomic bracket, because they have had more money to spend improving themselves than their poorer classmates. Similarly, many Ivy League students are in a comfortable socioeconomic bracket for the same reasons. It will always be easier to get into a good school if you have money, for the various factors you mentioned in your post. Because of this, and the very nature of American society, we tend to idolize those stories of a poor kid who managed to work his way to the top... this is the American Dream, and this social flexibility is, in my opinion, one of the best aspects of American culture.

On the other hand though, while this ideal tends to glorify these underprivileged children, it also dismisses the fact that privileged children may be just as talented and motivated, assuming that if they are rich, they MUST have gotten in JUST because their family has money, and this stereotype to me, is just as unfair as the opposite one that existed years ago.

I disagree with nycschool's original post because, while Stuy is an excellent example of how less-rich kids can have equal access to a good education, you cannot compare it to prep school for the simple reason that the two schools have different focuses. You can't compare Julliard to Harvard, because while Julliard may have a better music program, performing arts are its main focus. Obviously Harvard students go to Harvard looking for different things than Julliard students. The same for MIT and Brown, or other vastly different schools. Stuy and BX are specialized schools, created to concentrate on the sciences and math. So do they tend to have more Intel winners and Westinghouse winners than prep schools? Yes, but that isn't what a prep school is aiming for. Prep schools tend to focus more on a liberal arts education, sending many students to smaller liberal arts colleges. Does this make either one inferior? Of course not. It's just that they are for different people, as some on this board have tried to illustrate. This is why I think it's useless to compare numbers and statistics, because what one school may consider an accomplishment, another may think of as a silly goal. I think it's unfair for nycschool, who hasn't even been to prep school, to so quickly dismiss prep schools as inferior to Stuy.

That's all I'm trying to say.

By Sar (Sar) on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 01:27 am: Edit

*points to all the longest posts in this topic*

Same things can be said for careers, decisions, and lives in general.

"Relativity," I think, also sums this whole thing up.

The world is too large for absolutes; that is why there is war.

((Sorry if I'm tactlessly pointing out something obvious. Can someone please tell me if I am, so I'll know not to do it again?))

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit

wow this topic just died...funny

By Sar (Sar) on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:23 pm: Edit

well, relativity might not be the right word... maybe perspective? what do you think?

funny? i see resolution. *shrug* Stuff was starting to repeat.

By Justice (Justice) on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:35 pm: Edit

No offense Bigblue04, but regarding the academic ability of Andover students vs. the academic ability of students at magnets of the Stuy caliber, the magnets have Andover BEAT. I go to Andover right now and I don't really feel like saying who I am. It's an awesome place and I wouldn't trade it for any other school in the world, but like you said, some of us are well-rounded and some of us are well-lopsided. We have a lot of extremely intelligent and ambitious students; we also have some terrible ones. As in the athletes that are 20+. As in PGs. Other people. The ones with the 3.0s 3.5s and the 4.0s. You know SOMEBODY has to have them, because it makes up a good percentage of our student body. The basic point I'm trying to make but probably not accomplishing very eloquently right now is that it is unwise to overestimate just how smart we are in the big picture of international academia. We are not the collection of the world's most intelligent high school individuals. Maybe 20 of us per grade are, but the rest are special in their own way and some...yeah. Basically.
Andover is the most elite prep school and the most elite high school. Very compelling arguments can be made for that. But academic elite to the extent that you are suggesting...folly I venture.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Look, I never said anything about Andover students being superior, better, more talented, even smarter than the average magnet kid. I'm just sticking to my argument that the boarding school EXPERIENCE is one that you can't beat. The people? Yeah- some are cool, some are annoying. I personally find them more tolerable than people from home. You may feel otherwise. Regardless, just living away from home, having the resources we do, I think, gives us a really neat opportunity that doesn't happen to the average teen until college.

By Riz (Riz) on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 11:50 pm: Edit

(First post.)

I seriously laughed out loud at Worth's streetsmarts comment. Stuy kids don't have them. Period.

I didn't make Stuyvesant, however I was accepted to Tech and Sci. Even though I now attend a "lesser" school I'm more than happy--I guess not trying too hard worked out for the best. A school is more than its SAT average.

You may now continue this pointless debate.

By Alphachimp (Alphachimp) on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 12:59 am: Edit

"I seriously laughed out loud at Worth's streetsmarts comment. Stuy kids don't have them. Period."

You sound a little bit jealous to me. Honestly, that might be your experience, but it really isnt mine. And also, he was saying that in comparison to boarding school kids. I hope that you don't mean to suggest that somebody who spends their whole life on a nice campus is the boonies has more streetsmarts then somebody that commutes every day.

By Bigblue04 (Bigblue04) on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 10:59 am: Edit

"I hope that you don't mean to suggest that somebody who spends their whole life on a nice campus is the boonies has more streetsmarts then somebody that commutes every day. "

Tsk tsk tsk. Here we go with the stereotypes again. First of all, some of my classmates are so street smart they scare me, like one of my friends that refuses to even walk around campus late at night (which is sometimes inevitable if you have rehearsal or practice that lasts until after dark). She also happens to be from the Bronx. And secondly, we are not "spending our whole life on a nice campus." I'd argue, in fact, that I'm more street smart and independent and capable than if I were at home. I'm a lot more knowledgeable and comfortable taking subways, airplanes, trains, taxis by myself and maneuvering my way around places than a kid who has Mommy or Daddy drive him to school every day.

By Riz (Riz) on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 11:02 am: Edit

Well, I don't know any boarding school kids so I can't comment on them, but 90% of the Stuyvesant kids I know wouldn't exactly qualify as streetsmart. True, they're probably "streetsmarter" than boarding schoolers... but that's not really saying much.

By Hellwith189 (Hellwith189) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Did any body ever hear of Townsend Harris, the only school that outranks stuy. nOT SAYING THAT sTUYVESANT IS BAD. We do not consider NY schools as competitors, we consider the world!!!!!! All this talk about Specialized schools is killing me!

By Sar (Sar) on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 11:27 pm: Edit

I know people from Townsend Harris.

Doesn't really matter where my friends come from, though.

By Hellwith189 (Hellwith189) on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 03:19 pm: Edit

How many of u guys think about college in your freshman year? If any one of u does, please respond to my question. If the high school u go to is ranked one of the top five in NY STATE, does that increase your chances of getting in, with all those perfect average kids that come from crappy schools??
***respond only if u are sure about your answer!!!!

By Hellwith189 (Hellwith189) on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 03:20 pm: Edit

......... Is anybody out there......

By Sar (Sar) on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 08:45 pm: Edit

um... were you expecting a response in one minute?

In any case, I am unsure about my answer, so I won't post it.