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I'm a senior from Pennsylvania and my first choice right now is UPenn. Penn has been my top choice for a while, but now I'm having second doubts. I feel like I'm always going to regret not going out to California to look at Berkeley and Stanford.
Now, I'm looking to major in political science but academics are really not an overriding factor for me. I believe college is a place where you live life for 4 years, so I want a place without overly competitive students and a ridiculously hard courseload (this is why I didn't really seriously consider the HYP schools). I want a good social scene, but a place where I can still get a top education with opportunities in the future. I am intrigued by California's chill attitude and great weather. So do you think I should seriously consider Stanford?

Thanks

P.S. As I said before, I didn't really like HYP because those schools seemed to have extremely competitive students and an overly demanding courseload. Am I going to encounter this at Stanford (I know it has a reputation of having a ton of extremely driven Asian students no offense to anybody)?

By Jared (Jared) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

anybody? can anybody compare stanford, berkeley, and penn in terms of competitiveness of students, amount of work, and social scene? Thanks

By Paulhomework (Paulhomework) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Stanford is the most well-rounded elite university in the United States. That should be enough.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 08:33 pm: Edit

So Jared, you're saying that you don't want to go to a place with overly competitive students and a ridiculously difficult courseload, and so you've decided to nix HYP, but you're considering Berkeley? Uh, what's wrong with this picture?

Apart from certain notorious cheesepuff majors, Berkeley isn't exactly easy. In fact, I would say that, again, apart from those cheesepuff majors, Berkeley coursework is significantly more difficult and Berkeley students are significantly more competitive than at HYP. HYP grades are, on average, higher than Berkeley grades, and at Berkeley, there is the significant possibility of flunking out, something that is almost impossible to do at HYP. HYP students know that, apart from maybe premed courses and some hard-core science classes, as long as they put in some minimal effort and make a reasonable effort to attend class, they're going to get at very least a 'C', and probably a B'. With the exception of those cheesy majors at Berkeley, that's certainly not true. You can do all your work and attend all the classes and still get an 'F'.


Having said that, you say that you want to compare Stanford, Berkeley, and Penn in terms of competitiveness, amount of work, and social scene. It's difficult to generalize, because all 3 of them are very large schools and the factors you listed all depend to a great deal on what major you choose. Engineering and computer science tends to be difficult no matter where you go.

But if you really want me to generalize, here we go.

Competitiveness - Stanford (least), Penn, Berkeley (most)

Workload - Stanford (least), Penn, Berkeley (most)

Social scene - Stanford (worst), Berkeley/Penn (tie)

Now again, let me add my caveats. Clearly Stanford Electrical Engineering is far far more competitive and assigns far more work than does the Berkeley film studies major. What I'm saying is that, in terms of competitiveness, if you hold the major program constant (compare electrical engineering to electrical engineering), then Stanford is probably the least competitive and has the least workload.

And in terms of social scene - some people like Palo Alto. But most people think it's rather boring - there isn't exactly a huge amount of nightlife, it's difficult to get anywhere really exciting (like San Francisco) if you don't have a car, etc. etc. Now again, let me reiterate, some people really like Palo Alto. But I think most people, even Stanfordites, would concede that Berkeley and Penn offer better nightlife.

By Samueladams (Samueladams) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 09:16 pm: Edit

I'm at stanford right now, my workload is going to be very, very tough. I have a couple friends at Penn, and I know they have an intense workload as well, if you're a true intellectual you're gonna make a crazy workload for yourself whever you go. That being said, Stanford students are not less driven nor do they have an easier workload than either of the other schools. They may be less competitve in the sense that a lot of work should be cooperative, but that's certianly only a great benefit, no one wants competitiveness. Berkeley is very competitive in the "every man for himself" sort of way, which is why most of my friends at Stanford were turned off by it, so keep in mind that competitiveness and difficulty are very different. The social scene is also great here, definitely nerdy kids, but sociable ones who want to try and get out, Penn is also very large on the social scene, I have no info regarding Berkeley.

By Jared (Jared) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

thanks guys that helps a lot...i had said previously that i was majoring in poly sci but thanks anyway for the help

By Stanfordrulez (Stanfordrulez) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:42 pm: Edit

There goes STUPID Sakky again.
A bitter Stanford reject.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

And what exactly is your problem, stanfordrulez? Do you dispute something that I've said? If so, let's hear it.

If I'm such a such a "bitter Stanford reject", then why have I written many posts here on CC singing the praises of Stanford? Here are some of the things I've said here on CC just in the last few months, which you can easily look up using Message Search:

#1 - Stanford is primarily responsible for the rise of Silicon Valley, and Berkeley's role was (and still is) only as a sidekick.
#2 - Used Stanford as an example of a school that proves that you can be a (relatively) young school (only 113 years old) and still be in the ranks of the elites.
#3 - Is the one school in the country that has the best chance of displacing Harvard in the future as the most prestigious school in the country.
#4 - Is the model that I believe most schools, and most notably the UC's, should be following.


So why would I say any of these things if I really am such a "bitter Stanford reject"? The fact is, even for all of Stanford's positive points, which are numerous, Stanford has some problems too, and it's only fair that we talk about them. But apparently, according to you, unless I go around saying that Stanford is absolutely immaculate, then I must be a "bitter Stanford reject". Or, by extension, anybody who ever bothers to say anything about any school that isn't absolutely 100% positive must be a bitter reject of that school.

So who's the stupid one now? Oh I see.

By Snack (Snack) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit

It is difficult to give meaningful comparisons among different schools in terms of parameters such as "competitiveness," "social scene," or "workload." It's almost meaningless if the person making the comparisons has not been a student at each of the schools. Take these statments with a large grain of salt.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:00 am: Edit

I agree with you, but of course the problem is that very few people are indeed are going to be students at a bunch of different schools such that they can give a first-hand analysis of all of them. For example, how many people in the world have been students at Stanford AND Penn AND Berkeley? That's a pretty tall order, you must agree.

So while first-hand comparisons are extremely useful, they are also extremely hard to get. So what we're usually left with is second-hand analyses. You don't have to attend both MIT and your local community college to make a reasonable guess that MIT is probably more difficult than your local community college. MIT has a reputation that is repeated again and again for being difficult, and so I think it's safe to say that MIT really is difficult.

Hence, the fact that Stanford has earned a reputation for being less competitive and less difficult probably means that Stanford really is less competitive and less difficult. Is that a bad thing? To the contrary, I think that may be a good thing. HYPS are schools that have earned a reputation, once you get in, for being fairly easy (in the sense that it's almost impossible to flunk out, and as long as you do the work, you're going to get decent grades - contrast that with Berkeley, where flunking out is a constant danger). The trick, of course, for HYPS, is that you first have to get in.

By Stanfordnualum (Stanfordnualum) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:09 am: Edit

Jared,

Stanford/Berkeley both have top-5 poli-sci department whereas UPenn is in distant 40th-ish. Regardless of what people say about the workload/competitiveness in general, it's likey neither Stanford/Berkeley would give you easy time if you are gonna pick this major. Stanford's grade inflation may take good chunk of pressure off but there's still pressure to keep up with the talented classmates (I think Stanford's students are more talented than UPenn's esp for this major) and to complete all the assignments.

I took a "Intro to C" class at Stanford and while I know my grade wouldn't end up too bad as long as I finished all the assignments (meaning my code does run successfully), the workload was incredible!