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People are telling me it's as hard to get into berkeley from out of state (ct in this case) as it is to just get into stanford or any top 10 schools. I really like the school, and find that really disheartening.

Is this true? And to what extent? Why should I apply to Berkeley then if I can just apply to Stanford and Yale and stand the same chance of rejection?

Anything encouraging would be great...

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Everything you've heard is true, and don't forget that you'd be paying just as much at Berkeley as you would be at Stanford, too. Well, maybe not *quite* that much, but certainly a lot. However, Berkeley is an amazing school and offers somethings that most of those other Ivies can't offer. One, the people are great. Not nearly as pretentious as the Harvard types, and they seem to have more lives than the MIT types. Two, probably a big one, one benefit of having such a large student body is that there are TONS of social groups. You name an interest, and there's bound to be a student group comprised of a handful of people that share that interest. A huge quilting fan? There's a group. Like Anime? There's a group. Republicans against fur and slide rulers in the classroom? God knows, there's probably a group. Any of the top schools can offer a fantastic academic experience, but at Berkeley you can do so much more than just focus on your academics. This is without even getting into the benefits of being in an URBAN area and the cultural mecca that is San Francisco. Aside from Columbia, none of the other top schools really come close to what this region can offer. Boston, in my opinion, is a cultural cesspool.

And if all of this doesn't convince you, check out our weather on an almanac somewhere. It's sunny or nice most of the year, never snows, barely rains. It's like heaven.

There are a million other reasons why I'd suggest Berkeley, but the best advice would be to check out the campus (and other schools' campuses) - get a feel for the vibe and the students, etc. Different people have different interests. In my case, Berkeley was the only school I applied for, because it was the only school I was willing to attend. (how's that for a crap shoot) I've known for years that it's where I want to be. I'd visited Stanford, Harvard, MIT, and I just had no interest in even applying. Not my scene. Some people are exactly the opposite.

Anyways, best of luck with your search. =)

By Framoin (Framoin) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:56 am: Edit

Kryptic's words are of the wisest i've seen in ages

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 07:33 am: Edit

Berkeley out of state isn't nearly as hard as Stanford, Harvard or Yale, contrary to what you have been told. This can be validified by searching Berkeley's forum for this year's admissions results.

By Deferreddude (Deferreddude) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Yeah, I'd have to agree. Geting into Berkeley out of state is slightly harder, but it would be an exaggeration to say that it's as hard as getting into Stanford.

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Oh thank god. Might I have a shot? (1530 SATs, 750+ SATIIs, hard course load, 3.8gpa, ranked 1%, decent ecs?)

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

And thanks kryptic, it's precisely the reason I fell in love with an OUT OF STATE school ACROSS THE COUNTRY. And I will be applying to columbia as well, so you can see that i love that type of environment.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:50 pm: Edit

If you like the City of Berkeley, you'd probably also like Morningside Heights and the surrounding areas of Columbia University. Berkeley and Columbia are both in urban areas and both areas are fairly multicultural and offer plenty of opportunities to have fun. If I were you though, I would definitely NOT choose Berkeley over Columbia or any other Ivy League school that might accept you. I'm currently a junior at Berkeley and I can assure you that paying $22,000+/year for Berkeley is simply not worth it.

There are lower division classes at Berkeley with over 1,000 students. These classes have to be split up into different lectures. You'll have to endure countless lines to get what you want. If you want to purchase a course reader for your comparitive literature class, be prepared to stand in a HUGE line outside of Copy Central during the first week of class. If you want to return some textbooks that you don't need anymore because you dropped the class, be prepared to stand in line for about an hour at the Cal Student Store. If you want some academic advising, you'll have to make an appointment about two weeks in advance. If you don't make the appointment, you'll have to endure the one hour wait in the "drop-in" section of Campbell Hall.

Finding an affordable apartment in the City of Berkeley is extremely difficult. The cost of living in the Bay Area is VERY high and you'll have to be prepared to spend a lot if you plan on living anywhere near campus. A one-bedroom apartment located within a three block radius of the campus will routinely sell for over $1,200+/month. The two-bedroom apartment I currently live in is being rented to us at $1400/month. I used to live in a one- bedroom apartment that was rented to us at $1300/month because the market was even worse that year.

The weather isn't nearly as nice as Kryptic mentioned above. It basically rains continuously from about early November until about early April. It will be pretty tough to get individual attention from your professors when you're in a lecture hall with 400 other students. Keep in mind that graduate schools and professional schools discourage obtaining letters of recommendation from graduate students. The admissions committees prefer letters of recommendation obtained from full professors. If you're interested in doing research, be prepared to face really stiff competition.

http://research.berkeley.edu/urap/

The Undergraduate Research Apprenticeship Program is flooded with applications each semester and only a select few actually get to do undergraduate research with a professor. At private schools, getting a research spot is as simple as asking your professor after class. In all probability, your professor at Columbia will know you by name. This is definitely not the case at Berkeley. Undergraduate research is an absolute MUST for students interested in entering PhD programs. You'll also need strong letters of recommendation from the professor that supervised your research.

If you do matriculate to Berkeley, you will be one of 24,000 undergraduates attending this university. This is in stark contrast to Columbia, which has an undergraduate pool that's probably less than 4,000 students. There are HUGE waiting lists for lower division classes that must be completed prior to declaration of the major. These classes include Chem1A, Math1A, Physics 7A, Political Science 1 and 2, Econ 1, Business Administration 10, Chem3A, and many of the R&C classes. As a result, many students simply can't get into the classes they need to declare their major. This is partly why Berkeley's four-year graduation rate is only about 45%. People cannot get into the clases they need so they have to spend extra semesters here taking the classes to finish up their major. I've seen waiting lists that have over 150+ students on them. Keep in mind we're just talking about a waiting list here.

Berkeley's nickname should be changed from "Cal" to "Budget Cuts." Many departments are facing large budget cuts and many classes are being slashed from course offerings in any given semester. Unfortunately, some departments just can't afford to offer the classes they used to offer ten years ago. A class I registered for last spring was cancelled due to budget cuts. In addition, the Associated Students of the University of California was basically at war with the Office of Student Life because OSL wasn't receiving enough funding. Thus, OSL stated that they were planning on levying a $40 fee for ALL 300+ registered student groups on campus. ASUC had to raise hell and collect a petition in order for the Office of Student Life to finally give in and rescind the $40 fee for all registered student organizations on campus. I'm a signatory of a club at Berkeley and there will be even less institutional support for my club given the budget cuts. In addition, we simply will not be able to get any sort of funding from ASUC because the governance council lacks the funds to allocate to all of the student groups.

Given your grades and test scores, I'm sure you'll be admitted to Columbia and several other Ivy League universities. I HIGHLY advise you to rethink your decision to matriculate to Berkeley. I'm positive that Berkeley will accept you. However, I REALLY think you might want to reconsider spending $22,000/year to come here and become 1 among the 24,000 undergraduates at Cal. If I were you, I would definitely NOT turn Columbia down for Berkeley. Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best of luck in the college admissions process and I hope you'll be happy at the university you choose to attend. If you have any other questions about Berkeley, feel free to email me at the address listed in my profile.

Berkeley
Class of '06

P.S.: I'm doing quite well at Berkeley and my GPA is pretty solid. I've worked with several non-profit organizations in the Bay Area and I'm also currently working in undergraduate research with one of my department's most beloved professors. I'm not a disgruntled student trying to dissuade you from coming here. I'm just trying to give you the information that Berkeley's Office of Public Affairs probably wouldn't include in its informational brochures and pamphlets. The issues I've raised above go hand-in-hand with being a Berkeley student. Those are costs of coming to this institution. The benefits include the great education you can receive here, access to one of the greatest faculties in the world, and the prestige associated with the Berkeley degree.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:17 am: Edit

I've been in the Bay Area since the mid 90s, and I don't think I've ever seen it rain continuously from November through April. Perhaps it's because I come from Oregon, where it actually DOES rain continuously, but I suspect the other poster may be from some more sunny state. Not sure, but we have over 300 days a year of sun (not necessarily all sunny, all day, but still - 300+ days a year with sun). It's hard to beat. Certainly, if the other main school you're looking at is Columbia - it's no contest. The weather in NY is brutal.

As for the rent, there are a ton of rooms for rent in Berkeley for between $400-$600 a month. I'm currently paying $500/mo for a huge room about a mile from campus. I've got a yard, I live on a park, and I'm a block from the BART station (our subway). It's perfect. You can get a studio for around $1000 (check out CalRentals or Craigslist), or even less. Avoid the student housing, though, that *is* jacked up way too much. Certainly, we're no more expensive than Manhattan. =)

Some of what the previous poster said is true, about the size of the student body. It bothers some people, it doesn't bother others. I'm not too phased by it. For some of those inconveniences (like picking up a reader), you have a huge social support network. Can you only date skinny red-headed guys named George, with Aluetian ancestery? You can find him here. Shy and always feel like an outsider? Odds are that you'll find others exactly like you. Want to participate in a political action group that's organized enough and large enough to actually accomplish something? We have it. Everyone talks about how great schools are with smaller student bodies, but I've been to small schools - and the lonliness and isolation of it sucks. Columbia, on top of it, is mostly a commuter school. Everyone I know that has gone there has said that the social scene is non-existent.

And, don't let the other poster fool you, even Ivies have large classes and even Cal has small classes. Check out the Princeton review stats mentioned in one of the previous threads. Yes, places like Harvard have more smaller classes - but if you're taking Psych 1, doesn't matter if it's at Harvard or Berkeley - you'll be sitting with 800 of your closest friends. The difference in % (of classes with more than 30 people) was less than 10%. A lot of these people are talking about their idealized expectation of what private schools are like - their views do not necessarily reflect reality.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:26 am: Edit

The points raised by Kryptic are basically just factually incorrect. I'll address them here because I don't want an unsuspecting high school student to be misled by what they read here. First of all, there are large lower division lectures at schools like Harvard and Cornell. However, what matters here is the percentage of classes that have less than 20 students. What Kryptic doesn't realize is that the percentage of classes with more than 30 students is not the statistic that matters here. The reason for that is because we're dealing with a HUGE gap in the numbers of students at each institution here. So the percentage of classes with >30 students at Berkeley include tons of "cattle" classes with more than 700 students enrolled and over 100 students on the waiting list. At Columbia, the percentage of classes with >30 students will be courses that will have 50-100 students or large lectures with 200 students tops.

A student is much more likely to feel like a number at UC Berkeley as compared to Columbia. The statistic here that matters is the percentage of classes with UNDER 20 students. Another reason for this is because a professor will not remember his student's names in a class with 100 students just like he won't remember names in a class with 750 students. At that point, we're just considering whether the student will feel like a number and whether that student will have access to institutional resources like tutoring services, course planning workshops, etc. When we consider the percentage of classes with less than 20 students, 54% of the classes at Columbia meet our criterion. However, 70% of the classes at Columbia have fewer than 20 students in the course. It's clear that Columbia students receive much more personal attention than their peers at Berkeley.

I also find it interesting how Kryptic basically ignored all of the comments I made about wading through the bureacratic hassles at Berkeley. She also ignored the issue of budget cuts. This issue will basically be the downfall of this university. The budget cuts affect EVERYONE on the campus. This means that professors receive less research funds and it also means that full graduate fellowships cannot be used to attract top graduate students that are probably also weighing Berkeley against Stanford, MIT, and a slew of Ivy League schools. With less research funds, professors cannot publish at the same rate they used to. And what's even more threatening to the quality of the university is how Berkeley professors are being lured to top private schools. The reason for this is because the top private schools can offer higher salaries, secretaries, nicer offices, and perks. Berkeley simply cannot compete because the salary they offer is lower and the research funds are being reduced. The budget cuts mean that the 300+ student organizations on campus cannot receive enough funding for their activities and it also means that classes have to be cancelled by certain departments. The budget cuts also mean cutting staff at places like the Student Learning Center, the administrative offices in Sproul Hall, the College of Letters&Science, etc. This means that Berkeley undergrads will receive even LESS services from the university. And to put icing on the cake, the UC system is raising registration fees for all students. The out-of-state students are getting horribly gouged because their fees are now up to $23,200/year. I'm sorry, but Berkeley is simply NOT worth that much.

Berkeley
Class of '06

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:16 am: Edit

Well, as you can see, reasonable people can have differing opinions. =) Me, I'm not too worried about the budget cuts or retention. Berkeley has, and continues to attract, top talent. We also have a new chancellor whose priority is to focus on some of these issues. He, like many others, was willing to take a pay cut to come to Berkeley. Not every teacher is a money grubbing whore, and many like the unique atmosphere of a public university with as rich a history as Berkeley has.

Here are some comments from the people at Princeton Review, as collated from their surveys of students. Since neither of us have attended Columbia, it speaks with more authority than we do for that school. Decide what type of environment you like.

Berkeley
--------
Student Body
"There are hippies and stoners and gutter punks and preppy, Abercrombie-and-Fitch-donning, cell-phone-carrying socialites. There are frat boys and oddball co-opers, the politically zealous and the religious fanatics, the atheists and the trannies" at Berkeley. "The students are crazy, hailing from all geographical, philosophical, socioeconomic, political, and psychological points of view," reports one student. And they're "united by one thing: their hatred for Stanford—er, I mean thirst for learning." Sure, students here take their studies seriously, but when the competitive academic life is set aside, they're a laid-back crowd. "My fellow students and I all share the prevalent California attitude that everything is great and that things will work out." The most prevalent trait among the Berkeley student body, however, is independence. In some students' minds, this means that their classmates are "people that will really change the world, discover the cure for something, save a country, build the better mousetrap." In other students' minds, this means their classmates are "soulless GPA mongers" whose only concern is a good grade.

Academics
"Only the best come to Berkeley," observes one current undergraduate. Because of Berkeley's size and the absence of hand-holding professors, "Berkeley is a place for the more independent-minded students who are used to doing things on their own." "Shy people need not apply." While professors are willing to help students outside of the classroom, it's up to the students to initiate contact, and this can be intimidating when you're talking about "supremely intelligent" professors who're teaching classes of 500. Across the board, Berkeley profs are "extremely demanding, which in turn makes the academic experience one of the toughest in the nation." Sighs one student, "You can study your pants off and end up with a C." Online lectures are popular ways for students here to recap the topic of any given day's lecture. Many lectures are also supplemented by "smaller discussion groups" that "are led by" TAs that "range from wonderful to terrible." As a good number of students gripe, "The primary drawback to attending school at Berkeley is the bureaucracy." In the words of one undergrad, "Berkeley is #1 for red tape."

Campus Life
According to one student, "Berkeley is the center of the universe." "There is SO much going on on campus that it's hard to summarize." Spend a day at Berkeley, and you're likely to find everything "from themed frat parties to barbecues to football games to theater performances to watching jazz at Yoshi's to sneaking into the Greek Theater at midnight on the last day of classes to listen to the UC Berkeley Men's Octet perform to watching friends' dance and choral performances to attending protests, and everything in between." One student describes a typical walk to class this way: "I'll see Christian conservatives debating with students over abortion, with Hare Krishnas dancing around them, next to the Legalize Porn table." Sproul Plaza is the soapbox center of campus—the equivalent of London's legendary Speaker's Corner—"where different groups set up information tables to gain members and support." Regardless of where your interests lie, you'll find some cause to cleave to with "over 300 different student organizations" looking to swell their ranks. Parties? Never tough to find. Students also report that "drugs are very popular" here. Many students find their thrills just wandering around the surrounding town. "The city of Berkeley is ORGASMIC," raves one. And "the huge resources" of the entire Bay Area are in easy reach. San Francisco, for instance, is "just a 15 minute BART [Bay Area Rapid Transit] ride away." "As Clark Kerr, a former Chancellor of our university once said, 'If you are bored with Berkeley, you are bored with life.' " But proceed with caution, writes one student. "Don't be like me and fail your classes because you get caught up in all the lovely things to do."

Columbia
--------
Student Body
Columbia students are "stalwart NYC fans, and support hasn't flagged since 9/11. Students thrive on the city. They don't fear it." Some are from the Big Apple, while many others have merely adopted its mien; they are "very New York: they are not exceedingly polite, but can be; they mind their own business and don't butt into yours; and many are uptight and constantly on the go." These "extremely independent" students can be "hyper-intellectual, high-stress, and snobby"; as one undergrad told us, "Columbia students love being urbane, tortured intellectuals. Superiority complexes run rampant, but most students are like this and thus get along." Diversity is a bragging point for CU. Some here, however, caution that "in terms of a demographic breakdown, Columbia is diverse, but there is far less interaction than one might expect." Conservatives warn that CU "is downright nber-liberal. 'Left-wing' is probably an understatement." Agrees one of the pinko masses, "The two Republicans that attend here are burned in effigy fairly frequently."

Academics
"Academic powerhouse" Columbia University boasts offerings in a staggering array of disciplines, a faculty that includes five Nobel laureates, and one of the nation's few core curricula that students actually love. Even so, "how many schools can boast world-class education and location in the greatest city in the world? One: Columbia." Students here warn that "Columbia truly is hands-off. It's sink or swim, and you are the only person who can help yourself. Advising is minimal and the administration is a celebration of red tape." However, "for the independent-minded student, Columbia is the perfect environment." Central to the CU experience is the Core Curriculum, a sequence that immerses students in western philosophy, literature, and the fine arts. Many here will tell you that the Core "changed my life. It's a great feeling to read something junior year for another class and realize that I know where the ideas originated, and how they progressed." Profs here "are all extremely talented. That doesn't mean they can transmit the material well; in fact, some of them are actually horrible teachers. The exceptions, though, make it all worthwhile." Sums up one undergrad, "You will not have a laid-back, happy-go-lucky type of life at Columbia. Instead of spending your time on sculptured lawns with faculty mapping out the way to go, you will get on a crowded subway, push your way into a door, step over a homeless person, and even if you get tired, you won't be able to rest. Some may think this kind of college experience is terrible. Columbia students are those who think it's the only way to go."

Campus Life
Columbia's campus, a six-block-square plot in the middle of New York's Morningside Heights neighborhood (Harlem is just to the north), includes a surprising amount of open, grassy space for sunbathers and ultimate Frisbee fanatics. Few students linger long on campus when classes and studying are done, however; instead, they set off to explore the overstuffed metropolis that is their home. "One night on the weekends, you might go to a party with friends, a concert on campus, a Columbia-sponsored event; another night, you might go to a Broadway show, a club downtown, a Yankees game." The city provides access to "so many resources and opportunities off-campus. It's wonderful. I found a great internship this summer and since I am only a subway ride away, I can continue to work part-time during the school year." As one student put it, "In my New York City history class, we (150 students) take a bike ride through New York City, leaving campus at 11:00 p.m and returning at 7 in the morning. In my art history class, we go to the Met; in my music class we go to Lincoln Center. Can you easily do this kind of thing at Yale or Harvard? No, you cannot. Yale has New Haven, Harvard has Boston, and Columbia has New York City. Make your choice."

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:21 pm: Edit

My first comment: From what you describe, Berkeley seems like a commuter school... (you live a mile off campus) I'd like to point out that columbia is no commuter school. 98% of students live on campus and there is guaranteed on-campus housing for 4 years.

And the student body at Columbia is certainly a lot more intense than that at Berkeley. That's no question at all.

I guess my biggest reserve in terms of Berkeley is the that (and I really hope I don't sound snotty in saying this) whereas if I went to a school like Columbia, I know every student worked as hard as, if not harder than, I did to get where they are. However, at Berkeley, I'll know that it was a reach for me, but a safety for someone with the same credentials who happened to be a Cali resident. That some who have not worked half as hard as I have may be competing with me for the same resources at the same schools.

As far as student body goes, Berkeley is ideal. As far as weather goes, Berkeley is also ideal. I love the majors Columbia offers me, and I love the bustling atmosphere... I just wonder if I would feel too rushed at a place like Columbia...

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Berkeley is not at all a commuter school, I just happen to be an older student and the dorm life isn't for me. Most students live much closer than I do. Even being a mile away (about a 5 min bike ride for me), life still centers around the campus. Things are always going on down there.

As for Berkeley being a 'safety' school, you'll be hard pressed to find people here who didn't work their asses off to get here. It's a very smart student body. Even for CA-residents, we only take the top students from the schools here. In a state with 35 million people, and an incoming freshman class size of 8000, they can be very selective. Average SAT is around a 1330, average GPA is 4.24, and 98% of the student body is in the top 10% of their class. Compared with Columbia, average SAT there is 1400 (not a huge difference), but average GPA is only 3.8, and only 84% of the students come from the top 10% of the class. When you're comparing an incoming class size of 8000 of 1000, there's no justification for why those averages should be so much lower. It's a lot harder to find 8000 top students than it is 1000. Even with the higher average SAT, with the incoming class size at Cal - there will be more people with higher than 1400 SATs in your incoming class alone than in all of Columbia. Yes, some people have it easier getting into Cal than others, but that's true almost everywhere. For us, it's the athletic scholarships. For Columbia, it's the legacies, the children of the rich and famous, and all sorts of others that got there for reasons other than their academics. It appears fairly obvious that the Columbia student body is not necessarily 'smarter' or more academically rigorous than the Cal student body.

Besides, most recent studies have found that SATs are a weak indicator of collegiate success - and GPA isn't a whole lot more reliable. So, before you go thinking that those who scored a 1400 might be 'beneath' you, spend a couple terms with them. =) You may also find that, even if you are smarter than the average student at Cal, this may not be as undesirable as it sounds. After all, classes are competitive - do you want to do better than the average or worse than the average? If grad school is in your plans, I'd be pretty concerned about getting a higher grade and fairly inclined to select a school that I think I'll be more successful at. (No one comes to Berkeley because it's easier than an Ivy League school, though. =)

Also, perhaps it's not relevant, but if you're Asian - do you want to be part of only 12% of the student body, or part of 40% of the student body? As a non-asian, I'm really jealous of the sheer quantity of Asian support, professional, academic, and social groups that Berkeley offers. I wish they had even 1/10th as many for people like me. =) I doubt that anyone at Columbia is a racist, but it's also nice to feel like you fit in.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:44 pm: Edit

"Also, perhaps it's not relevant, but if you're Asian - do you want to be part of only 12% of the student body, or part of 40% of the student body? As a non-asian, I'm really jealous of the sheer quantity of Asian support, professional, academic, and social groups that Berkeley offers. I wish they had even 1/10th as many for people like me. =) I doubt that anyone at Columbia is a racist, but it's also nice to feel like you fit in."


This argument is so ridiculous, I'm not going to even bother responding to it. No prospective college student should choose their school based on the percentage of **insert any ethnicity here** that happen to attend the school.

Berkeley definitely IS a commuter school. Dorm housing is only guaranteed for freshman. Again, there aren't enough housing resources for all 24,000 Berkeley students. UC Berkeley cannot possibly house that many students in university housing. There are MANY Berkeley students that live in Oakland, Emeryville, Kensington, Albany, and several other towns that surround the City of Berkeley. These students either take public transportation or commute to the campus everyday. It's about a 30-40 minute drive for them everyday. I happen to know some students that commute from their parent's houses in Marin County. Personally, I'd hate to commute to campus and having the campus in walking distance is a HUGE plus for a student. Columbia definitely has a much better housing situation as compared to Berkeley.

A message for Kryptic: When you post information about colleges, please try to make sure it's accurate. The high school seniors deserve to have the facts about the colleges they're considering.

The SAT average for Berkeley is NOT a 1330. The actual SAT average is 1300. Please refer to the link for verification.

http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023370&LTID=1

The average SAT 1 for Columbia freshman is a 1407.

http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1022408&LTID=1

This 107 point difference actually matters because we're taking an average over thousands of students. The incoming freshman at Columbia will be noticably more bright than their peers at Berkeley. You'd be hard pressed to find a college admissions officer that would dismiss the difference between a 1300 and a 1400 and just claim that the two scores are "close enough." A 1300 SAT score for a California in-state resident will make you a competitive applicant to Berkeley. Obviously, it's a different story for out-of-state applicants and applicants to the College of Engineering.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 09:06 pm: Edit

My Berkeley stats came from the Berkeley website. Go to the admission site and do the math, it's accurate. It's also more up-to-date than the Prineton Review data. You can blast me for not getting the most up-to-date data for Columbia, but not for having bad numbers. If you think that 107pt SAT difference matters, though, then how do you explain the difference in GPAs and class ranking?

As for Berkeley being a commuter school, your claim is patently ridiculous. You've obviously never been to a commuter school, or even have a clue what one is. I have, and Berkeley is clearly not a commuter school. The fact that some students live outside of walking/biking distance from campus does not make Berkeley a commuter school. The fact that most upperclass students don't live in dorms does NOT make Berkeley a commuter school. What makes a 'commuter school' is when something like 85% of students live far off-campus (typically drive in), when these students disappear as soon as class is over, when the campus and student body doesn't even bother really hosting social events, when most of your friends don't even go to the school, and when there is no real sense of 'life as centered around school'. Go check out SFSU or, where I'm more familiar with, Portland State University. These are commuter schools.

In contrast, the vast majority of Berkeley students live near campus. Huge blocks of students participate in campus activites. Most of us feel somehow 'tied' with the campus. It's the center of our lives, not just a place we spend a few hours between 8 and 4. The entire city of Berkeley is essentially one big college town, and commuter schools do NOT have 'college towns' built around them.

I appreciate your concern for the prospective students, but if you don't have experience with other colleges, if you don't actually know what it's like at other types of institutions, then don't try to correct people who do have this experience.

As for the claim that people should be blind to the diversity of the campus they're applying to - you obviously also do not have the experience of being a very poorly represented minority at your school. It can be lonely, you can feel isolated, and you can feel pressure to 'fit in' with the dominant group. In extreme cases, you also tend to be singled out as a target of hate crimes. I'm sure Matthew Sheppard, were he alive today, might suggest that being the only gay male in Wyoming was not a benefit. In the case of being Asian at a place like Columbia, obviously those extreme situations are not likeley to come into play, but do you really think you'll feel as welcome as you would at Berkeley? It's a consideration, and the huge numbers of Asians at Berkeley clearly indicate that many other Asians also chose to attend a school where they were more well represented.

By Esun (Esun) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 09:12 pm: Edit

"There are lower division classes at Berkeley with over 1,000 students. These classes have to be split up into different lectures. You'll have to endure countless lines to get what you want. If you want to purchase a course reader for your comparitive literature class, be prepared to stand in a HUGE line outside of Copy Central during the first week of class."

I've only been at Berkeley one week, but I already have some counter-claims against this post. You don't have to take courses with 1,000+ students. You can choose to if you want to, but if you took the right APs and pick the right section, your classes shouldn't be that large (some of my friends decided to take math 1A and 1B when they placed out of those; I'm taking H54, which is a 20-person course; same goes for physics 7A versus H7B).

And I bought a reader just the other day and waited maybe 30 seconds in a line. If you choose busy hours to buy a reader then obviously you're going to wait, but thinking in advance can save you some pain in that area.

And finally, regarding the 100 SAT point difference between Berkeley and Columbia, that's just ••••••• ridiculous. Like 100 points really indicates that their students will be noticeably brighter. I've known characteristically non-bright people with 1500s and extremely bright people with 1350s, so that means squat.

Anyway, these issues are trivial. I don't really think the OP is going to care if he has to walk an extra 5 minutes because he's living two blocks off campus, or if he has to wait in a few lines for twenty minutes, or if the average person he meets has a 1300 instead of a 1400, or any of these other pointless reasons.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit

"Anyway, these issues are trivial. I don't really think the OP is going to care if he has to walk an extra 5 minutes because he's living two blocks off campus, or if he has to wait in a few lines for twenty minutes, or if the average person he meets has a 1300 instead of a 1400, or any of these other pointless reasons."

The housing situation on campus and the selectivity of the school are not "pointless" reasons. Why is it that he's applying to Berkeley and Columbia? Why doesn't he just apply tot his state school in the northeast? He obviously cares about being around other motivated, bright students that have also worked very hard throughout high school. As for the housing situation, you assume that EVERYONE lives within 2 blocks of campus and only has to walk about 5 minutes to get to class. This is definitely not the case because there are large chunks of the Berkeley population that cannot live near campus for a multitude of reasons.

First, the cost of living gets MARKEDLY higher the closer you get to campus. Not everyone can afford to pay $750+/month for rent. Many Berkeley students are currently on financial aid and there is also large contingent of students that are financially indepedent and work to support themselves. These students probably won't be paying $900+ to have their own studios near campus. Secondly, there is pretty stiff competition for apartments near campus. Second, the competition for apartments near campus is stiff. Once an ad is placed in Cal Rentals for an apartment that's between 1-3 blocks away from campus, tons of students will respond and contact the apartment manager for an appointment. The apartment will go to whoever places the deposit down on the place first.

I'm glad you just brushed aside the 100+ point difference in the SAT average between the two schools. lol I'm sorry, but the caliber of students at the two schools are just NOT the same. It's quite clear that Columbia has a more academically qualified student body. I'm basing my argument based on the stats released by the schools. You're argument is just based on your own anecdotal evidence concerning the "non-bright people with 1500s" and "extremely bright people with 1350s." Your anecdotal evidence means "squat" here. You'd strengthen your argument by using objective evidence that everyone here can verify. Please take Rhetoric 10 if you'd like to learn more about reasoning and argumentation.

These are definitely not "trivial" or "pointless" issues. The budget cuts that the university is currently enduring is definitely NOT "trivial" for any of the students, faculty, and administrators. As was discussed above, this means that professors will be receiving less research funds so they'll accept offers by private universities that can give them higher salaries, more research funds, secretataries, and other perks. A whole Daily Cal article was written about how Ivy League universities are taking advantage of the UC budget cuts by trying to lure Berkeley faculty away from Berkeley. Don't take my word for it, please take a look at the statistical evidence for yourself.

http://evcp.chance.berkeley.edu/RegentsPresentationMarch2004/regentpresentation_files/frame.htm

This Powerpoint slide was presented to the Regents of the University of California. From the data, we can see that Harvard made SIXTEEN offers to Berkeley profesors and five professors chose to leave Berkeley. Harvard was the most successful in stealing Berkeley professors because about 25% of the professors who were offered spots left our university. As you can see, a slew of private schools are currently making bids for Berkeley professors.

To Kryptic: If you check US News & World Report, you'll see that 90+% of UC Riverside students come from the top 10% of their high school class. Does that mean that UC Riverside has a stronger freshman pool than Columbia? Does this mean that UC Riverside has a stronger freshman class as compared to Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, and Northwestern? We can't use the average GPA stats because it's too heavily skewed by grade inflation among high schools in certain states. CA high schools are more grade inflated as compared to east coast high schools. This would explain why 90+% of UC Riverside freshman hail from the top 10% of their high school class.

P.S.: In my really long post above, I meant to that 54% of Berkeley classes have fewer than 20 students. I accidentally typed in Columbia there even though the actual stat is that 70% of Columbia clases have fewer than 20 students. I mentioned that later in the post.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:08 pm: Edit

Even if CA had grade inflation, that wouldn't affect school ranking. That's why colleges care about that metric. I doubt that the "top 10%" students here in CA are much different than the "top 10%" elsewhere, certain inner city schools excluded. I've also never heard anyone brag about how great, for example, the NY Public School system is, or the Boston Public school system, etc. They have many of the same problems we do.

Also, don't confuse selectivity with intellectual/academic strength. Some schools, perhaps UCR is an example, may be easier to get into - but that doesn't mean that the students are less intelligent, less rigorous, or less able. There may be a correlation between selectivity and ability, but there is no causation. We have one of the best university systems in the world, with a natural bifurcation in student's and their abilities between the CSU and UC systems, and it's not that inconceivable that UCR may have a host of very smart people attending.

By Esun (Esun) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:19 pm: Edit

Eliteconnect, I'll admit my anecdotal evidence is weak, but what's even weaker is the complete lack of evidence tying SAT scores to intelligence, but more specifically demonstrating that a 100-point difference in SAT score means a noticeable intelligence difference. The examples I've seen in my life are more substantial than any study, simply because there are no studies! At least you cite none, meaning I have absolutely no reason to defend my case.

The stats released by the schools are similarly not enlightening because those stats are based on tests that, again, are not tied to intelligence.

"He obviously cares about being around other motivated, bright students that have also worked very hard throughout high school."

So do I. I also care about being around other human beings, not socially inept geeks. There are plenty of motivated, bright students that have worked very hard throughout high school here (I'm one of them), but likewise there are other people that diversify the atmosphere. I don't need to bond with 10,000 other students, just a niche that I fit into, and there is a niche for everyone here. I'm not commenting on Columbia, mind you (I didn't even apply there), but just on Berkeley. I want to emphasize that while you may find "smarter" people at other schools, the "smart" people at Columbia are NOT going to be significantly different from those at Berkeley. And for the stupid people at both schools? WHO CARES? There are enough people like me, who scored 1400+ on their SATs, at Berkeley such that I don't have to worry about those that bombed the SATs and brought down the average. Besides which, the SATs have proved their irrelevance in the past, and they do so again here because they do NOT indicate anything related to intelligence (and I actually did well on them).

To be fair I don't have a good perspective on the severity of the housing issue because I have guaranteed housing for four years.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Some quotes from the following article...

http://www.dailycal.org/article.php?id=15803

"SAT scores are not an indicator of academic performance at UC campuses"

"After surveying more than 30,000 students across nine UC campuses in the spring of 2002 and 2003, the study finds a correlation between higher family income and higher SAT scores, associating both factors with a greater likelihood of academic irresponsibility."

So, the key take away - higher SATs are more likeley to mean that you come from a richer family (duh, in the case of Columbia) and that you're more likely to be academically irresponsible. Perhaps you're so used to doing well that you slack off once you get to college? Who knows. But I think this clearly explains why SATs are higher for schools like Columbia, since the student body comes from a more affluent background. It may also explain why the performance on the SATs doesn't tie in with their performance in school itself (hence the abyssmal GPA and student selectivity rankings for Columbia).

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

*I'm a "she"

And housing is definitely a MAJOR concern of mine, how did you get guaranteed housing for 4 years when everyone else only has it for one year?

And I'd like to comment on the fact that "[you] doubt that the "top 10%" students here in CA are much different than the "top 10%" elsewhere"... I don't know much about california but there's DEFINITELY a disparity between states. Here in New England as well as Mid-Atlantic, there are PUBLIC schools taht are as competitive (if not more so) than many other states' private schools (i.e. places like mississippi or alabama, that are underrepresented in ivies). My school likes to DEFLATE grades and gpas. I have a straight A average yet a 3.5 uw gpa. My cousin's high school in Maryland has an average SAT score of 1350, I highly doubt the top 10% from that class is comparable to the top 10% from most other public high schools in the country.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit

CA is the most populated state in the union, we certainly have our share of great schools. Lowell High in SF, for example, shares much in common with the schools you mentioned. I'm sure there are a ton of others. However, when looking at school admissions criteria, you can't assume that every applicant and admit is coming from these top schools. With the #s they see, it averages out.

People in NE and the MA often have a certain provincialism that causes them to think that they have the best education in the country, because of the rich academic history, but it's not entirely true. I think the HYP crowd is still having a hard time admitting that Stanford, a blasphemous west coast institution, is now one of the top schools in the country. =)

Housing isn't much of an issue. It's gotten a lot better in recent years, and right now there have been articles in the local newspaper about how prices are coming down because supply is so high. As I said earlier, if you're flexible on where you live (e.g. 1 mile away from campus instead of 1 block), you won't have any difficulty finding a room for ~$500/mo. It's one of the most bike friendly cities in the country and, god knows, you're not able to drive to school anyways - so it's not much of an impedance. Very few people choose to live in the dorms past their freshman year, not because they're forced out, but because dorm life sucks and gets old quickly.

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

I'm really looking forward to living in dorms b/c of the close-knit feeling. I like schools taht center around residential life, at which you see students lying around on the grass studying reading etc just oustide their dorms. I'm thinkin a semi-commuting school would then have a majority of students who like to study in their apartments instead of on campus during their upperclassmen years. They'll come to classes, eat a bit, wander around, and then go "home"...

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:32 am: Edit

btw, MA is a PART of NE :P and I dont live in massachussetts. but there are a LOT of private schools up here, and most of the public schools are competitive as well... it's just a general characteristic of the place. of COURSE stanford is a great school, no one can deny that; It's just that harvard, yale, princeton, mit, columbia, etc etc come within a 200 mi radius of each other.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:52 am: Edit

Then you are probably should look at schools that are in a rural setting where there is no place to go. Like Dartmouth or Cornell. Or schools whose surrounding areas are not ameniable like Yale(don't they tout their residential dorm system?). You might as well forget about schools that have interesting surroundings like Berkeley or Columbia. Columbia should have a large number of "commuter students" because of the ease of rapid transit in NYC. And I don't recall very many lawns at Columbia's urban campus. And I would think when the weather gets cold at Columbia that also would be less of an attraction. Most serious study is done deep in the stacks of a dark, musty library not on a lawn with millions of distractions. Sorry to burst your bubble. Maybe a small LAC might be more your style like Amherst or Swathmore or Reed not a bustling large university like Berkeley or even Columnbia or Stanford.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit

"I highly doubt the top 10% from that class is comparable to the top 10% from most other public high schools in the country."

You're absolutely right. There is a HUGE disparity between the quality of high schools between the states. CA is definitely grade inflated as compared to the east coast.

UCR:
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023545<ID=1

UMass: http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023840<ID=1

Isn't it kind of weird how UC Riverside gets a selectivity rating of 97...with an AVERAGE SAT OF 1057?? Berkeley, Columbia, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and many other top schools have selectivity ratings of 99. Doesn't this meant that 90% of the incoming class at UCR is coming from the top 10% of their high school class, but the average SAT I among those students is a dismal 1057? The other link is for the University of Massachusetts, a typical east coast public school. Isn't the average SAT I at that school an 1137? But why is its selectivity rank only an 81 when UC Riverside gets a selectivity rank of 97? Doesn't this mean that the average GPA of the freshman pool at the University of Massachusetts is MUCH lower than the average GPA of the freshman pool at UC Riverside? Doesn't this clearly point to rampant grade inflation because that freshman class easily rose to the top 10% of their high schools and had average GPAs well over 4.0, but couldn't manage to break a dismal 1100 on their SAT I?

It's quite clear that CA high schools are prone to grade inflation because there is regional bias in applications. Obviously, MANY more kids from the east coast will apply to the Ivies (as a percentage) when compared to kids from California. However, the average GPA at the Ivies are lower and the average SATs are higher. This is because CA high schools are notorious for grade inflation and the top 10% of CA high school students will have GPAs WELL over 4.0. The average GPA of a Berkeley admit my freshman year was hovering around a 4.2. At most east coast high schools, this GPA is IMPOSSIBLE to earn because no extra points are given to AP classes or IB classes. And even if you adjusted the data to eliminate this factor, the average GPAs at the east coast schools would still be lower than the average GPAs at CA schools. However, the east coast students will have HIGHER average SATs. This does not mean that these students are "academically irresponsible" and are simply too lazy to do their work. This just means that their high schools are just more RIGOROUS and that grade inflation is kept to a minimum at these schools.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

I meant MA as Mid-Atlantic, not Mass, sorry. =) And, despite the fact that it seems hard for you to believe, just come and check out Berkeley - you'll find people playing frisbee in the fields at all hours, people studying under trees, people camped out in the library, etc. Sheesh! It's.. not.. a.. commuter.. school! Not even semi. Yes, some people do commute, no they are not the majority. Just visit it...

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:41 am: Edit

I absolutely agree with eliteconnect. my high school has a strange weighted gpa system - out of 7.0, however the same still goes: honors courses and aps carry the same weight (i have 5 aps this year, but may be beaten out in class rank by someone with 5 honors courses but slightly better grades). If you ask me there's something wrong with that... Even then, only an A+ is = 7... my weighted gpa is about a 6.5

You can only earn a 4.0 uw through straight A+, As bring you down to a 3.7, A- are a 3.3, B+ are 2.9... therefore my gpa, though straight A's... hover around a 3.5 I'm also quite bitter about that.

My hardest class last year (junior year) of 35 people handed out 2-3 A's... it's pretty crazy.

But Berkeley does sound like a great place to be, I'm very glad for the new perspectives on the school. sorry kryptic, I press the issue of "commuter school" a lot because that's a big deal for me. It was only after I made sure columbia guaranteed 4 year housing that I decided to apply. I will definitely weigh my options now and see if Berkeley is worth the battle of trying to get in for an out-of-state applicant

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:47 am: Edit

And in response to twojaw -

I don't believe you have to sacrifice a feeling of community completely just to be in a great location and be surrounded by great people. the people attracted me to berkeley and columbia much more so than the location. I'm tired of suburban white people that all look and act the same, been surrounded by them nearly everywhere I go. I've heard about the vibrance of berkeley students and the intensity of columbia students and realized that's the kind of student body i'd like to be a part of.

And I live in New Haven... so... I would certainly like to refute any insults you might have toward yale's surroundings.

By Vigilante (Vigilante) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:02 am: Edit

damn Eliteconnect, why don't you transfer if you hate Berkeley so goddamn much?
holy ••••, where do you get off insulting the school you actually go to? what does that say about your choices?

seriously you are just sounding like a jackass

clearly peebles doesn't want to go to berkeley, so why don't you guys just drop it

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:35 am: Edit

"seriously you are just sounding like a jackass"

The only person that even remotely sounds like a "jackass" here is you. Seriously, why did you even comment in this thread? All you've added to this thread is just a personal insult. Didn't I post links to all the evidence that support my arguments? Didn't I strictly stay focused on other people's arguments as opposed to just calling them names and hurling insults? Where in this thread do I say that I "hate" Berkeley? Jesus, it's like you didn't even bother to read my posts and just came here to hurl an insult and leave. Well, good job at constructing a post that did absolutely nothing for the original poster at all.

As for my "choices"...I admit that Berkeley was probably not the perfect fit for me in terms of lifestyle. I, like the original poster, was also choosing between Berkeley and an elite private school. However, I didn't have enough information about what it was REALLY like to be a Berkeley student. Back when I was comparing the schools, I thought my everyday life at Duke and Berkeley would be comparable. The reason for this is because schools never paint an objective picture of the life of their undergraduates. The campus tours, brochures, and anything else they give to prospective students will only paint the school in the most positive light. Obviously, this is just a ploy to get you to apply/enroll. I went on the campus tour for Berkeley and thought I would have a great time here. Honestly, I didn't think there was going to be any significant difference in my quality of life at either school.

However, I was CLEARLY wrong. My friends at Duke were telling me how effective their career center is in connecting them with jobs. Their alumni network is very tightly knit and they really care about helping their undergraduates land the job of their choice. Berkeley could NOT possibly care less. The career center at Berkeley will just point you to the computers in the office that have access to "CalJobs." However, practically ALL schools register with MonsterTrak and have job listings through MonsterTrak. There is no real "alumni network" for Berkeley graduates. Did I know this when I signed my Statement of Intent to Register for Berkeley? Absolutely not. Again, I'm just trying to make sure the original poster KNOWS what she's getting herself into. You came here to bash me simply because I'm telling the TRUTH about my school? Didn't I post links to evidence for all the major arguments I made? Just because one attends school X means they cannot criticize school X or make any comments about the school that the administration of the school would object to? Isn't that a little...um...fascist? I'm just trying to make sure that the original poster has enough accurate info to make an INFORMED decision. And just because someone attends a particular school doesn't mean they're not allowed to criticize it. Isn't that what the whole free speech movement was designed to protect?

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:06 pm: Edit

"clearly peebles doesn't want to go to berkeley, so why don't you guys just drop it "

peebles...?

If I didn't want to go to berkeley I would not have bothered to post this board and ask about whether it's possible or worth it out of state. I have to thank both eliteconnect and kryptic for providing two opposing viewpoints of the school, it has given me a MUCH better perspective of what undergrad life at berkeley would be like. Living in CT and probably unable to EVER visit before applying/enrolling at a west coast school, honest discussions/comments on these schools is very important to me and will probably help determine where I do or do not apply.

By Twinkl (Twinkl) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Just wanted to point out that the UC's recalculate every applicant's GPA, giving equal weight to AP classes and so on. So the only difference in GPA would come from the individual teachers at each school... whether they hand out their A's to anyone who shows up to class or if it's nearly impossible to get an A at all.

Anyways, the academic experience you'll have at Berkeley is also determined by your major and which school/college you apply to. If you're going to apply undeclared to the College of Letters and Science... good luck getting yourself distinguished. But I'm majoring in architecture at the College of Environmental Design. Since it's so specialized and relatively few people choose this major, the usual student's problem of getting lost in the crowd concerns me much less. Even one of my introductory/foundation courses (ED1-introduction to environmental design) is being co-taught by the Chairman of Landscape Architecture.

I think the bottom line is though, if you're determined enough, you'll find all the opportunities at Berkeley or any other large public instution as you would at any ivy. Of course, it'd be MUCH harder... but certainly not impossible.

Of course that's just my subjective opinion... you can disregard it since I don't have links to websites or quotations from who knows where. I don't like statistics because I've always felt that what the general population experiences doesn't determine what my own experiences will be. Maybe it's the naivety/elitism in me, but so what if most students can't get what they would at a smaller school? If 99% of people don't graduate from Berkeley in 4 years, then I'll be among the 1% who do. If you're "qualified" enough to be accepted to any ivy league school, the fact that you attend Berkeley doesn't take anything away from your potential. It just takes more work and effort on your part... If that bothers you--if you want to be handed your research opportunities and so forth--then I guess a smaller school would be a better fit.

Just my 2 cents...

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Well pebbles, then I suppose it depends upon what you want for college. Certainly a West Coast experience will be vastly different than your current East Coast sensibilities and you are right...those schools you mentioned are all of that sensibility. Berkeley has much to offer and it will not have the trappings of Ivy League / East Coast hoopla. Sense of community will be present. Just because a school offers guaranteed housing for 4 years doesn't mean the students will avail themselves of all four years and I am sure you will have upper classman that prefer to just "go home" rather than hassle with underclassman hijinks and growing pains. Berkeley does offer university sponsored apartments for upperclassman and much of the dormitory life is left to freshman and sophomores. But that certainly doesn't mean there is no community. This vision of students lounging on lawns is a Norman Rockwell painting. But I suppose your model is Yale, where they tout their residential college/house system like Gyphendoor and Ravenclaw. Whatever. But you should look West if you wish to outgrow this provincialism. Look West if you wish to avoid this elitism. Look West if you wish to achieve and find new outlooks.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:01 am: Edit

"This vision of students lounging on lawns is a Norman Rockwell painting. But I suppose your model is Yale, where they tout their residential college/house system like Gyphendoor and Ravenclaw. Whatever. But you should look West if you wish to outgrow this provincialism. Look West if you wish to avoid this elitism. Look West if you wish to achieve and find new outlooks."

Twojaw claimed you should try to avoid this "provincialism." Yet, she exhibits this same provincialism by constantly referring to the Berkeley/west coast schools as more egalitarian (not "elitist" like east coast schools...as if there are no elitist students at Stanford, Pomona, Claremont McKenna, and USC) and she said you could achieve and find new outlooks if you just "look West." I'm positive you could also expand your horizons/"achieve and find new outlooks" by going to Columbia or a slew of other east coast private universities that are actually WORTH the $23,000+ pricetag. If you come here as an out-of-state student, you'll be paying $23,200/year and a Berkeley education is simply NOT worth that much. Not even the LAW STUDENTS at Berkeley are charged that much. The tuition for out-of-state law students is about $12,246. The tuition for out-of-state UNDERGRADS is $22,438.

Out-of-state law student tuition: http://www.princetonreview.com/law/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1035795<ID=5


Out-of-state undergraduate tuition:
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023370<ID=1

Quite frankly, I'd rather pay $23,000+ to be 1/~4,000 students at Columbia University as opposed to paying $23,000+/year to be 1/23,000 undergraduates at Berkeley.

P.S.: The image of students lounging on lawns is definitely not just a Norman Rockwell painting. You'll find students studying and lounging on lawns at Penn, Cornell, Berkeley, Harvard, Stanford, and many other schools. When I visited Columbia, it didn't really seem like it had that many open lawns on the campus outside of the main quad in front of the library.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit

But surely Eliteconnect you can rectify your "mistake" by transferring can you not? Afterall you were accepted by Duke in the first place...shouldn't it therefore be easier to transfer there now?(I do not mean this in a denigrating tone either). I don't believe enrolling at a school makes it written in stone. And many students do find that the choice they make is not correct and do transfer. I am sure you should be able to get to Duke if that is what you want. My point to pebbles is that one should not make such a important choice based on an idyllic view. And yes...I didn't seem many open lawns at the very urban Columbia either which also speaks to my point.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Given that peebles lives in CT, I'm sure it will MUCH easier for her to visit the Columbia campus as opposed to flying out here to visit the Berkeley campus. Secondly, I don't think the lack of lawns at the urban Columbia campus is any reason for her to spend $23,000+/year to come to Berkeley and become 1/23,000 undergraduates. Thirdly, it's too late for me to transfer because I'm already in my 3rd year. However, transferring is an option that is usually reserved for students that are downright miserable at the school they attend. I'm really not miserable at Berkeley and I'm doing very well in terms of academics and extracurricular activities. There is no reason for me to transfer because I'm doing quite well here. In addition, Berkeley is a GREAT value for IN-STATE students because it's only about $6,000/year and you receive a top tier education. For an out-of-state student, Berkeley is not nearly as good of a value.

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:56 am: Edit

Well, actually yale IS my top choice and I'm going to be applying there early. But of all the schools i've visited (at least on the east coast), I was able to find students studying outside, classes held on the lawns, and students playing soccer, throwing around frisbees and such. Yale especially gave me a great community feeling, and the residential college system deserves every bit of hoopla it receives.

And, Berkeley out-of-state IS a lot mroe expensive than most state colleges. I believe uconn out of state is only $13,000. Of course, uconn doesn't even compare to berkeley in terms of... anything... but for in-state it'll most likely be free for me.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit

I never understood the cost advantage of going to Berkeley. If you are like most people and you are middle class and your EFC is 22,000 (like mine is), then going to Berkeley costs just as much as going to the most expensive private schools. Because of financial aid, I'm only expected to pay 22,040 a year for Stanford and that includes room and board, books, travel expenses, and personal expenses. If I went to Berkeley I'd have to pay about 22,000 a year (room and board included). My total savings would be a whopping 160 dollars for four years.

By the way, my definition of middle class is a household income from 100,000 to 150,000 for a family of four.

By Steveruleworld (Steveruleworld) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 05:57 pm: Edit

I'm middle class, household income of 100,000, family of 6(4 kids, i'm the oldest). And somehow our EFC was $44000 for the FAFSA, while the CSS was 20000. So even though i was out of state, it didn't matter. I'm still waiting on the waiver that i submitted for instate tuition based on military dependency, and it should go through, but until then...i wish they'd go faster.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Do you have a crapload of savings? We are paying off our house and all our savings are going into that, so that's why our FAFSA is probably lower. Either that.....or I'm damn lucky

By Mysticwistful (Mysticwistful) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Dude, you're making me jealous. Going to Stanford costs the same as going to Berkeley in-state for you? I hate you!

By Ryry (Ryry) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

To: Eliteconnect

Seriously though, and I'm not trying to personally insult anyone, why didn't you just transfer out of Berkeley if you don't like it that much? Just curious.

You have so many negative things to say about this place. It almost seems that you've been so fixed on Berkeley as being such a bad place that you refuse to see any good in it at all.

As for Pebbles, go where your heart tells you to go? I chose Berkeley because it felt right, in fact I chose it over Stanford and Columbia (and no, I don't regret my decision at all). I chose Berkeley because the people, place, everything just felt right.

And to everyone, GO BEARS!!!

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 04:30 am: Edit

"You have so many negative things to say about this place. It almost seems that you've been so fixed on Berkeley as being such a bad place that you refuse to see any good in it at all."

In respone to this statement, I will just copy and paste a comment I made above in one of my previous posts.

"Those are costs of coming to this institution. The benefits include the great education you can receive here, access to one of the greatest faculties in the world, and the prestige associated with the Berkeley degree."

To address your point, I did laude Berkeley for its superb faculty and high level of prestige. I'll admit, most of my comments were negative simply because I do not think Berkeley is a good value for the original poster since she is an out-of-state applicant. As a result, she would have to spend $23,000+ to come here. If she was an in-stater choosing between Berkeley and Columbia, I could definitely understand her choice to come to Berkeley because she will save tons of money by doing so. In addition, I really do not think that a Berkeley undergraduate education is equivalent to a Columbia undergraduate education. I'm positive that a Berkeley GRADUATE education is just as good as a Columbia graduate education. However, we're only talking about undergraduate work here.

I also mentioned my reason for not transferring above. Transferring is generally an option for students that are very miserable at their current school and I really do not see myself in that position. I have plenty of friends here and I've had the opportunity to work with many premier faculty members. Overall, my experience here has been positive and my parents are saving lots of money in the process.

I'm glad you liked the atmosphere of Berkeley so much, you decided to choose Berkeley over Columbia and Stanford. I wish you the best of luck in the remainder of your time here at Cal.

By Mysticwistful (Mysticwistful) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

Berkeley over Stanford?! What are you crazy? Or maybe just a liar......

I have a hard enough time believing somebody would pick Berkeley over Columbia. But Stanford? Nah.

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Stanford IS a good school O_o

By Irock1ce (Irock1ce) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

top 10% of cali public h.s. = top 10% of MA or east coast. We have our fair share of very competitive public schools and SATs mean jacksh!t. Dont make assumptions that we are just much less competitive here in Cali. I go to the high school down the street from UCB and i can tell you that the top 10% of my class can easily compete against the top 10% of any high school, private or not.

By Steveruleworld (Steveruleworld) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 11:32 pm: Edit

And as an east coaster going to Cal, i'd have to say that the west coast is a lot nicer than the east coast. I turned down all my east coast schools for Cal. The only way you can understand is if you live in the weather out here. Much nicer. Much more friendly. Much happier, which in turns makes people happy.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Pebbles...A school's worth to you is only as good as their offer of admission to you. And Stanford looks beyond academic performance for the oddest and profanest. Hope your language inventing is coming along.

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2004/march31/letters-331.html

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2003/april2/admission-42.html

Good luck to you.