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I'm a sophomore at Wash U (love it here). USNews completes their rankings in the summer before they are released... giving them quite some time to write the articles and what not. They then notify the colleges about a month before the official release of the rankings, for publicity purposes so the colleges know in advance what to expect for the next year, etc. Through the grapevine (a friend's father who works for the university), I heard that Wash U is moving up to number SEVEN this year. Could be true, could just be a rumor... we'll know for sure in late August. I hope it moves up more, I believe it deserves another boost.

By Missmolly (Missmolly) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 07:56 am: Edit

As a parent of an incoming freshman I am totally impressed with Wash U...I would not be surprised to see Wash U go up in the ratings. My son picked Wash U because he felt that Wash U would be the Best place for him, and that was his reasoning. I trust him....

By Taxguy (Taxguy) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 10:17 am: Edit

Considering that Wash U has one of the highest endowments in the nation (over 4 billion), I am surprised that it hasn't hit the top 10 before.

Ratings though are questionable. Wash U may be rated in top 10 but be number 30 in Art or English etc. You need to find out about the program(s) that you might be interested in.

However, that said, I always felt that Wash U was a better school in many ways over Emery, Northwestern, NYU and many others.

By Tosg (Tosg) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 08:20 pm: Edit

That'd be pretty cool, but most of the schools that are currently ranked above it seem pretty unlikely to fall. I guess we'll see in a couple of weeks, though!

By Tao (Tao) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit

i agree with ya tosq...the highest i expect would be another #9 ranking, which I have no complaints about.

By Tao (Tao) on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit

i agree with ya tosq...the highest i expect would be another #9 ranking, which I got no complaints about.

By Missmolly (Missmolly) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 08:21 am: Edit

If you look at 2004 U. S. News Best Colleges there are several colleges tied with #5. Maybe
Wash U will be tied with several colleges for #7-
I do believe that Wash U is capable of jumping ahead a spot, possible matching Dartmouth and Duke. Who knows?

By Missmolly (Missmolly) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

Oops, Wash U is already tied with Dartmouth...I guess I could see Wash U and Duke in the same slot, but I am not sure that Wash U could jump ahead of any of the other schools....

By Milemarker7 (Milemarker7) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Potentially, Wash U could jump to first! In Wash U's case (as well as most other colleges), the ratings are a self-fufilling prophecy. The higher we get rated, the more people that apply, the higher our selectivity gets, which means our rating goes higher. As the rating goes higher, selectivity goes higher etc etc etc.

I feel these ratings can only accomplish so much. They're mere advertisements created by US News to sell magazines and online subscription to the 'premiere' part of their website. If I were a college, I would feel obliged to spend as much money as possible to get my rating up. Because if you think about it, the US News is the goldmine of classified ads for colleges. I could actually make the argument that it's one of the most influential lists in this country, maybe even the world.

By Theguac (Theguac) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

I don't think WashU is in the position of matching Duke yet. Duke is most closely associated with Penn and Columbia, two universities that are above WashU in overall academics. You must remember that as WashU is getting better, all the other schools are as well. If WashU does jump to a higher rank, I would say that USNEWS overranked the school. WasU is a great school, but it really cannot compete with Penn, Columbia, and Duke yet.

By Trebleclef829 (Trebleclef829) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Wash U IS higher ranked than Columbia already...

By Missmolly (Missmolly) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Duke has some great attributes, but after reading "Admissions Confidential" (a book about Duke's admissions policies) I think that Wash U could stand next to Duke as equals. No offense, but I like that Wash U sports is Division III. More resourses go towards students, professsors, and the buildings.

By Theguac (Theguac) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 06:28 pm: Edit

No offense taken =). I am talking about academics and not about admissions or the resources given to individuals on campus. It would seem that Duke would win in the academics category, but it is all subjective. One goes to college because he feels comfortable there and that is what I felt, especially when I had other great top 10 schools from which to choose. WashU is good but I would place it a notch lower than Duke in academics, much like how Duke is a notch lower than HYPSM in academics.

By Cloud1234 (Cloud1234) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Overall, I believe Duke is slightly better than Wash U academically. Yet, Wash U is a great school too. Although many argue that Wash U is the most overrated school in the USNEWS ranking, I think it really deserves the spot where it stands.

By Johnkerry (Johnkerry) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Is there any new information on this ranking? I'm sure someone knows the truth if the guides are being handed out to advisors/colleges. I do however find it HIGHLY unlikely that WASHU will move up to #7 just because i don't see what two colleges above it are dropping below it. Certainly, harvard yale princeton mit and cit are cemented in the top 5 area. Will Penn/Duke drop into a tie with WASH U? doubtful. Furthermore, WASHU's overall score in the USNEWS ranking in 2004 was 88. The Penn/duke/stanford/cit conglomerate tied at #5 had a 94. Thats a big gap to bridge in one year. I don't even think WASHU deserves to be ranked higher/is a better school than any of those ranked above it. I would even argue some schools below WASHU in the rankings are supperior colleges (columbia and brown in particular). But thats my opinion on this subject. feel free to respond.

By Stanfordnualum (Stanfordnualum) on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

It's funny how Wash U doesn't really have many top disciplines but somehow overall it's ranked that high. One explanation is that US news undregrad ranking is not really a true measure of academics and it shows in their formula. Endowment is one example; selectivity rank is a bit unfair to minority of schools not using common application because the extra stress and work esp for the essays stop good number of people applying. Anyway, I don't think it matches Duke at this point in terms of academics. But let's look at Northwestern, the school which doesn't use the common application and was ranked lower than Wash U for the very first time last year. Northwestern has a lot more undergrad disciplines (out of their six schools) placed in the top 10 to 20; the whole school of journalism and every department in their school of communication are in top 5 (grad/undergrad ranking); their engineering school has 4 departments in the top 10 and 8 departments in the top 17 (undergrad ranking). Their music school is in the top 10 with couple disciplines being the top in the nation. Their school of education is in top 10 (graduate ranking; undergrad unavailable). Their relatively weaker Arts & Science still has top-20 programs in art history, chemistry, econ, English, history, psychology, sociology, and poli sci (grad ranking; undergrad unavailable).

But if you look at Wash U ranking on their own web site: http://news-info.wustl.edu/rankings/
most top ranked programs are really in the school of medicine, leaving just a few outside medicine in the top 20. I am surprised their engineering school only has biomed in the top-20 (14th). I also notice they make the list longer by listing subdisciplines (cognitive and clinical psychology are under psychology and Wash U lists all three; "American politics" is under poli sci and Wash U lists both; creative writing is under English and Wash U list both). I wonder if that's double/triple counting....

So as far as academics go, I would say Northwestern (and Duke) is a clear winner still.

By Theguac (Theguac) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

I agree with Stanfordnualum. WashU is clearly overranked this year and better schools like Northwestern, Columbia, and Cornell should be ahead of it. I would place WashU nearer to Vanderbilt and Emory than to the top 10.

By Milemarker7 (Milemarker7) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:19 am: Edit

Don't be jealous of Wash U...BE SCURRED!

By Missmolly (Missmolly) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 08:08 am: Edit

My son went to ArtSci weekend and he met several students, including himself, that chose Wash U over Northwestern. I asked my son why he chose Wash U, and he said because Wash U felt like the best place for him. I was shocked because I too believe that Northwestern is better academically. Maybe the college choice,for some kids, is about finding one's self and less about academics. I have a friend who's son is at Northwestern and he is having a difficult time socially speaking. Yes, academics at NU are stellar but he is not happy there. Last I heard, he was contemplating transferring to Wash U. I think there are alot of different things to look at when it comes to choosing a college. Any comments?

By Missmolly (Missmolly) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 08:31 am: Edit

Thequac,

Do you go to Duke or Wash U???

By Theguac (Theguac) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:35 pm: Edit

I agree with Missmolly. That is how the college search should be conducted and prestige should only be a small factor.

I go to Duke.

By Tobes (Tobes) on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Well I chose Wash U over Northwestern (and while I was only waitlisted at Duke I decided that I would still choose Wash U even if they eventually accepted me). I think perhaps NU would have been a better choice since I'm considering a career in journalism and communications, but WU offered me the art program that I want as well as a more comfortable environment. I simply felt better on WU's campus than NU's. For one thing, kids at NU tend to live in dorms closest to their academic buildings (humanities tend to be at one end of campus and sciences at the other) and in groups based around academic interests. This means that there's less mingling with kids who have different interests. WU just felt like a more cohesive, diverse, and tight-knit community to me and that was one of the most important factors in my college decision.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:16 am: Edit

Wash U could easily move into #6,7 or 8 without beating out any other school. There are no schools in these number rankings.

It seems to me that people that are critical of Wash U's rise are concerned about it taking over their own favorite school or alma mater. Many of its critics seem to think that the rankings, official and unofficial, of ten, twenty or thirty years ago are somehow more valid. This seems like an elitist attitude to me.

I find it tiring that so many people that bash the rankings are the first ones to agree that HYPSM should all be considered the best schools in the country. I wouldn't dispute that they are-they have a history, generous alumni and locations that Wash U probably couldn't beat if they tried. (Although Mark Wrighton's goal is to be #1) Wash U has done much to warrant its rise in the rankings and more than just manipulation of the data as so many CC'ers like to bring up.

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Liz -- Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the three schools tied for #5 effectively "take up" spots 6,7, and 8? One of those would have to drop below Wash U for it to move up.
And by the way, I totally agree with your post.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

I don't believe that's true but I'm no expert. My guess is that they are assigned a position according to the overall number they receive. That's why there are so many in the #5 spot.

By Cloud1234 (Cloud1234) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:40 pm: Edit

2003: 1,2,3,4,5,5,5,5,9
2004: 1,2,3,4,4,4,7,7,9

since the gap between 4 (MIT) and 5 (Duke, Upenn, CIT, Stanford) is not that big, maybe 3 schools from rank #5 will move up to 4... and 1 will move down...

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Liz, that's my point -- eight schools had higher point totals than Wash U -- it just so happened that some had the same totals and were "tied." So at least one would have to move down for Wash U to move up. Unless of course, Wash U ties with all the schools at #5. But for Wash U to make it to #7, another school's total would have to adjust down since then there would only be six, not eight, schools higher.

By Incollege88 (Incollege88) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit

I'm sorry but I really don't understand the obsession with the US News rankings especially prevalent among Wash U students. I have seen it on this site and among my three friends who are going to the school. In fact it was one of the things that turned me off from an otherwise great school after I was admitted to Wash U. I think Wash U is doing itself a great disservice by being so obsessed with "climbing the rankings" by recruiting students who have no chance of admission and by deluging those who do with so many materials it borders on the ridiculous. I know several less-than-stellar kids who were led on to believe they could get into Wash U by the admissions office who were then wait-listed, along with thousands of other kids. Getting kids’ hopes up by actively recruiting them to apply to a school that becomes their dream school and then wait-listing them (does Wash U reject anyone?) seems pretty cruel to me. I am all for Wash U and I have a lot of respect for the school but I really don’t understand the kind of mentality among current students of which this discussion is illustrative.

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Incollege -- Speaking just for myself, I am not obsessed with either rankings or with Wash U. I was simply trying to puzzle out Liz's comment that the "no. 6,7, and 8 slots were open." But since you put the point the way you do, why not decry the fact that Harvard, Yale, and every other selective university in the country continue to recruit when they have no need to? And to continually claim that Wash U recruits simply to inflate its ranking ignores the fact that selectivity is only one of the factors used in this (as we all agree) far-from-perfect ranking system. I can't help but agree with Liz that there is a real "old money" trashing the "nouveau riche" feel to some of these comments -- probably some Midwest-bashing, as well. Why shouldn't Wash U students be proud of their great school and the recognition it seems to be getting?

By Incollege88 (Incollege88) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

I'm sorry I wasn't bashing the school at all, I do believe Wash U is great, that's why I applied to the school (not because it was ranked #9)...I just don't think rankings are something to be proud of. As someone going to a school "ranked #5" I acknowledge how silly and flawed these rankings are and I would never think of citing them as an indicator of how good my school is, wasting time predicting next year's rankings, or believing my school to be superior to those below it. That is all I was trying to say.

By Johnkerry (Johnkerry) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:06 pm: Edit

... but you did elect to attend the school ranked #5 over the one ranked #9. thats curious.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:08 pm: Edit

I would agree with all of those comments by Kiddielit and add that I think the reason Wash U is so "obsessed" with the rankings is that they are not well known. I understand they are known in pockets around the country, but we live in Minnesota and it is a very rare person I run into that knows about Wash U.

I don't think getting deluges of mail should qualilfy as being led on. I do think Wash U needs to rethink their marketing campaign and find different ways to get their name out there. They truly have to be the least known school in the top 10.

Kiddielit, I just realized what you were saying about the rankings. I was assuming there could be 10 # 5's as long as they all have the same overall ranking-Kind of like almost everyone having A's at Harvard. I don't know what the actual overall scores because I don't have last year's copy.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Let's get real here-it's nice to be recognized. I don't think that many people on this board are obsessed with rankings as the be all and end all for determining which college to attend. It's a starting point, a guide, information and it's interesting conversation.

When you are a little recognized underdog, you will take all the publicity and limelight you can get. Duke was there at one time except that it had better nationwide name recognition without the rankings.(probably had something to do with sports) I hope Wash U stays in ninth so everyone would quit talking about how over rated they are. It's crap!

By Incollege88 (Incollege88) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:19 pm: Edit

johnkerry: In the end I was choosing between schools ranked 5, 11, 17, and 21, and I would have chosen #21 over the other schools I got into, ranked 9, 14 and 16...What is your point? I chose the school I will be attending because I loved it, and I would have made the same decision had it been ranked #30.

By Johnkerry (Johnkerry) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit

*cough* bu11shit *cough*

By Incollege88 (Incollege88) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Alright man I'm sorry for ever saying anything. I guess I didn't think that Wash U was "a little-recognized underdog" and I just thought the whole post was kind of silly. My bad. You all go to an awesome school...whether it's ranked 9, 7, 30, or 1, alright?

By Johnkerry (Johnkerry) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

We're not saying that you can't have an opinion. But when you make a generalization about the washu student body's obseesion with a ranking guide and subsequently mention that your school is ranked #5, your argument looses all integrity.

The reason many washington university students may seem intrigued by the USNEWS Ranking is that it presents the school brilliantly in the national media. It can be a bit on the frustrating side to work your butt off at a school that has a workload as challenging/heavy as any other school in the nation and getting no acclaim for it. The "How do you like Seattle/D.C. questions get really annoying really fast. And no, acclaim/prestige should not be why studfents select a college but it is always nice to get a pat on the back once in a while, or at least once.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Yes incollege88 it is "a little recognized underdog" compared to its peers. It may be name brand on CC and in parts of the country but it is not in the same way its peers are. CC is a very small sampling of college applicants and parents. It is not truly representative of the country. When I consistently get blank looks when mentioning Wash U to well traveled educated adults around here, then yes I think they are somewhat unrecognized.

By Trebleclef829 (Trebleclef829) on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 09:37 pm: Edit

I won't testify to other schools being good or bad. I can only say that I truly love my schools, and many students who frequent the Wash U message board would naturally love it as well. This kind of stuff is always biased because the only people who can truly know a school is the person who is actually attending. No one can attend all of the "top 10" schools, so it's impossible to 100% judge. The truth is that Wash U is a great school, and those of us who are attending it probably think it deserves its status or a higher one. While I and many others believe that rankings are kind of silly when you get to these very top schools, an increased ranking might allow Wash U's name recognition to match its value as such a great school. My experiences with Wash U have been extremely positive, and that is why I am so extremely impressed with the university. The Wash U promoters know they have a great product, but it would be a lot nicer if more people new its name.

By Patsfan (Patsfan) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Wow, Washington U may rise in the ranks. Big deal.
There are too many individuals who are hung upo on college rankings. Essentially, there are the big five (not by U.S. News) but in terms of reputation, name recognition, etc. These are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT.

After that you have Penn, Duke, Dartmouth, Cal Tech, Chicago, Northwestern and several liberal arts schools including Amherst and Williams.

Washington U is probably somewhere in the mix after that maybe following Emory and Vanderbilt.

Washington U is definitely first in Hype. All a high school student has to do is check the mailbox to confirm this. They market the school like a fourth tier institution in dire need of students to increase their enrollment stats.

They have given a new name to rejections called the waiting list.

So all of you posters can wait for the new ratings to be announced because that is what education is all about.

By Washu07 (Washu07) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:15 am: Edit

this is hilarious, this is all due to the one and only andrew who has been telling everyone about no 7... i hope he's right!

By Ghhizzmo (Ghhizzmo) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 01:53 am: Edit

US News changes its criteria for ranking each year, which is how school's positions change so radically from year to year. Since US News removed yield this year, it would be likely that there is a large shift in rankings among schools.

By Slipper2002 (Slipper2002) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:16 pm: Edit

The thing with Wash. U is that they seduce top students with generous scholarships, so most of the top students essentially go there for monetary reasons, not because it is their first choice. Not a huge issue, but another reason why it might be overrated. The rankings fluctuate tremendously based on criteria. In 1998 Emory was #9 and Hopkins #7. Now both have fallen significantly. The schools that are consistently in the top are the ones making moves. Also, there is no way Wash U. is a better school than half the Ivies.

By Taxguy (Taxguy) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Skipper notes,"Also, there is no way Wash U. is a better school than half the Ivies. "

I just read your post. Although I never attended Wash U, what makes you make this statement?

I have always believe that one of the critical factors in determining how good a school can be and whether it will rise in the rankings is its endowment. Wash U has over 5 billion in endowed assets. This is more than half of the Ivys!

Having a large endowment allows for more scholarships, better pay for professors, better equipment etc. Admittedly, this is just one factor,but it is a major factor.

By Slipper2002 (Slipper2002) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 01:35 pm: Edit

1) Selectivity
2) Prestige/ Credibility
3) Graduate placement

http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php
http://www.yale.edu/bulletin/html2002/law/students.html

4) Alumni Support (look at compared to Ivies)

By Milemarker7 (Milemarker7) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 01:36 pm: Edit

"Also, there is no way Wash U. is a better school than half the Ivies. "


Biased, perhaps?

By Trebleclef829 (Trebleclef829) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Personally, Wash U was my first choice, but I know many people who are going to Ivys. I didn't apply to any because I didn't feel at home at the ones that I visit. I have been very impressed with Wash U every time that I've visited, and I know many people for whom Wash U was there first choice (and not for monetary reasons). There are many great liberal arts colleges and universities in the country, and people decide on them for a variety of reasons. Because of its midwestern location, many people haven't visited Wash U and seen what it is like there. I visited many schools, and I liked Wash U the best, while others many like Columbia, Emory, Swarthmore, etc. better. To each his (or her) own. A lot of people on this message board (obviously) will be attending or are interested in attending Wash U.

By Johnkerry (Johnkerry) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Looks like Wash U actually dropped a couple spots in this years rankings... Personally, I think the #9 ranking was too high anyway. Not like any of this actually matters though...

By Acdbx (Acdbx) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 02:52 pm: Edit

HP
Y
upenn
duke/mit/stanford
caltech
columbia/dartmouth
northwestern/WASHU