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Well I just found out how racist the SOuth is. A judge in Tennessee gave custody of a Chinese girl to a pair of Southern parents because they raised issues about how Chinese culture doesn't treat women right and how the standard of living in China isn't good enough. The lawyers even said: "What kind of quality of life is the child going to have in China?" asked Larry Parrish, a lawyer for the Bakers. "Common sense dictates that to take a child out of an environment where she's firmly attached and settled is the ultimate devastation."

Wow, I didn't know you could take away a baby from her biological parents when the parents didn't commit any crime. Well, perhaps being Chinese is a crime over in the South.

Just see this article in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/national/02CUST.html?ex=1393563600&en=65e8293b8f55a694&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

By Deferreddude (Deferreddude) on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 01:43 am: Edit

This is a damn outrage. Can't anything be done?

I mean seriously, you can take a baby away from her biological parents who love her just because the parents are from China? While the biological parents have been fighting all this time to get THEIR RIGHTLFUL BABY back, a racist judge in Tennessee believes all this crap about how Chinese values are harmful and thus the baby should stay with foster parents in America to learn christian values and •••• like that!?!

I knew Tennesee was in the Bible Belt, but this is going too far. I wish there was something I could do.....

By Calkidd (Calkidd) on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 02:41 am: Edit

I read the article and damn, it's upsetting that this even went to court. Somehow I have this feeling that this organization that the Bakers are involved with is run by Pat Robertson. Anyway I hope it blows up into a big issue (since it might affect the election this november).

On another note, why're you posting this item here and not in the Cafe section?

By Deferreddude (Deferreddude) on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 03:36 am: Edit

"The Bakers' lawyers say that what ultimately matters is the welfare of 5-year-old Anna Mae He, who has seen her biological parents only once in more than three years as a result of a court order."

What kind of Tennessee backwards ass judge gives a court order that prevents a child's biological parents from visiting their daughter? Hey man, is this America or Nazi Germany?

That judge better be fired, censured, and thrown out of court! I can't believe this is actually happening in this day and age. I also hope this blows up into a big issue, and I can't believe I never heard about this until now.

By Deferreddude (Deferreddude) on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 03:39 am: Edit

"To me, if Casey truly loved her daughter, she would leave her with us," Mrs. Baker said. She added that a life in China, where female babies are sometimes deemed inferior to males, would be a hardship.

GRRRR!!!! I want to scream!!!!!!!

By Markm2004 (Markm2004) on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

This is indeed an outrage and a detriment to the United States judicial system.

By Amethyst (Amethyst) on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit

It is not right for Mr. and Mrs. Bakers to be stubborn in this case. I am sure that they love the little girl and want to protect her, however, this is just not the right way to do it. They should consider HER future. The little girl NEEDS her parents. I can understand the situations on BOTH sides, However, I sympathize with the Chinese family more.

By the way, I am Chinese.

By Irock1ce (Irock1ce) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Hey. What a great way to make the rest of the world hate us even more! Lets just keep pushing the Chinese more and more... (remember the bombed chinese embassy in yugoslavia? How about the U.S. plane running into the Chinese plane in China? Or the constant •••••••• that the United States sends out about China which a lot of times ARE NOT True (note: Dalai Lama... a lot of his escape was done through the U.S. Government....). But we all know that the south is still VERY racist. and America overall is still quite racist. Let us learn from this... that if you are not white, there will always be prejudice placed on you one way or another.

By Cornelius (Cornelius) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Consider her future?

I think she would be better off in a rich white family in America than in a normal family in China, biological or not.

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Yes Cornelius, just like you would be better off if Bill Gates had kidnapped you when you were a baby.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Cornelius would make a great judge in Hicksville, Tennessee.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Cornelius: So do you think that Rupert Murdoch should've filed an injunction against your parents and asserted that you would be much better off in a family with hundreds of millions of dollars...as opposed to the family that you were born into?

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:52 pm: Edit

what the bloody hell?!

"To me, if Casey truly loved her daughter, she would leave her with us," Mrs. Baker said. She added that a life in China, where female babies are sometimes deemed inferior to males, would be a hardship.

Oh really... I must have suffered a HELL OF A LOT of "hardship" and "inferiority" then. Learn a little about the culture before you make ignorant blanket statements like that.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:55 am: Edit

You know, if this verdict had even an ounce of truth, there would be no kids left in China.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:53 am: Edit

I'm not defending this argument in any way-shape-or-form, but you guys *are* aware that female children are still killed in many parts of China, right? With the one-child policy, a lot of parents want male children. Females infants are being murdered, especially in some of the more rural provinces, in alarming numbers.

http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/femaleinfanticide.html

http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=13983&repository=0001_article

(etc, etc, etc)

The above verdict is clearly racist, but don't stick your head in the sand over the very real abuses and problems that exist in China with women's (and human) rights. If they survive birth, women are still subjected to second-class status. They have decent opportunities professionally (at least at lower levels), but at home they are still expected to defer to their husband. How many women do you see in leading positions in the Party? Although I'm a vehemant anti-smoker, just take a look at smoking in China. Something like 95% of the smokers are men, because society doesn't even allow the women to smoke. Not considered feminine, and only the 'bad girls' do it. How many female college professors do you see? Having traveled and studied China a fair bit, I could go on for quite a bit longer, but most of these things are well known and easy to find online. We're far from perfect here, but that doesn't mean that these issues still shouldn't be fixed and pointed out. The more you live in denial over things like this, the longer society is able to get away with these injustices.

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:19 pm: Edit

The one-child law was enacted around 1980. I was born in China in the 1980s. I'm a girl.

Having lived in China for eight years of my life, I'd like to respectfully disagree with krypic's statements. What you learn in books through capitalist propaganda is very different from the truth in 21st century china. YES, A CERTAIN MINORITY of chinese mothers DID used to abandon female babies, because they could not do the manual labor needed of children. This is an INCREDIBLE rarity, and have only occured in the poorest of farming regions. I actually grew up in one such region, as did my mother, my cousins (all of whom except one ARE girls), aunts, and every other female member of my family. China has experienced hard times but has moved distinctly away from the agricultural industry it used to be as it is experiencing INCREDIBLE technological growth. Many members of my family, including the women, work in the field of technology.

It's funny that more foreigners see the law as an injustice than people who are actually affected by the law. Perhaps first-hand experience is most valuable. The population in China is tremendous, and it's only because of the law that we have been able to stem the incredible boom. Personally, I believe it's better to have one healthy kid than three or four dying from starvation. China has enough trouble providing people with jobs as it is (we are sending a lot of money back to china each month b/c of the unemployment troubling much of my family). In fact, 1.2 billion people (or maybe 1.3 now...) is a LOT of mouths to feed. If the population were to, say, DOUBLE, which it was bound to do if left alone, the level of human misery from starvation and unemployment would be unimaginable. You, a human rights advocate, surely would not want to see that.

Are you sure you're not getting Japan confused with china in terms of roles of women? Most chinese women ARE in the work force, I hardly know of ANY who are forced to stay at home to "defer to their husbands". Japan is the country that considers women "less" than men, NOT China. My chinese aunt was SHOCKED to be treated with such degradation when she worked in Japan for three years, and had many fights with her male boss. My mother has a college education... in fact a degree from medical school, as does my father. And, though this is NOT at all good thing, women DO smoke, and are very much "allowed" to smoke (like it's a privilege?). It's just extremely popular with men and not as popular with women. Most women think it's disgusting, and men think it's macho... (like it doesn't happen here?) My aunt on my dad's side smokes... we hate it, but what are we gonna do.

I'm not questioning you in your knowledge of China on the surface since you've traveled there and studied it and all, but coming from someone who has experienced first hand the life in china (and visit often) as well as someone whose family still lives in the country, I just wanted to clear up some of your misconceptions. Most Americans think China is a lot more "old-fashioned" and backwards than it actually is. Truth is, the Chinese culture is actually a lot like the American one (or at least they try to be): teenage girls in short skirts strutting on the streets uttering phrases like "coo" and "o.k."; extreme competition between females AND males for college and graduate degrees; famous singers/actors/newscasters etc etc of both genders.

For some additional perspective: Beijing University (arguably the most prestigious university in the country and one of the best in the world) opened its doors to women in the early 1900s, where as here in the United States, coed studies did not begin at most colleges (including ivies like yale and princeton) until the 1970s. By the way, my mom was talking to one of her college friends a few days ago who happens to be a professor at a well-known university in China.

Yes, I have a lot of connections, it's only natural when you're so closely linked to a country. Of course, I rambled, but I think I've made my point. China still has a long way to go in terms of equality of women and men, and I do agree, they should definitely press for more. However, I found your view of status of Chinese women (being one myself) offensive and presumptuous: "If they survive birth, women are still..." Yes, we often survive birth, and we go on to do great things as well.

By Pebbles (Pebbles) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:30 pm: Edit

By the way, the one-child law should have absolutely NOTHING to do with the decision of TN court. The parents are OBVIOUSLY not going to abandon the child after fighting so bitterly for her. It's absolutely irrelevant and therefore shows the racist tendencies of those involved in the trial.

By Esun (Esun) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit

The saddest thing is that this isn't even surprising. The South is just as much behind the rest of the states as it was 150 years ago. I don't think the gap will ever be fully bridged in some areas.

By Cornelius (Cornelius) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:47 am: Edit

China is a horrible country with a horrible human rights record. Why on earth would you want anyone to live in a communist country where you can be arrested for speaking your mind? Why on earth would you want a little girl to live in a country where foreign reporters are jailed at will? Why would you want anyone to live in a country where the government has the mandate and the power to do anything it wants, including jail and kill its citizens?

Injustice is injustice whether or not it happens often.

You people are crazy.

If given the choice whether to be adopted by Bill Gates or live with my biological mother, who is a Chinese immigrant coincidentally, I would choose Bill Gates and I think my mother would fully support me in that decision.

It would be a better life with Bill Gates and his not being my biological father should not be a significant roadblock to building a parent-child relationship.

By Sixsixty (Sixsixty) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:10 am: Edit

I shall assume you are aware of the concepts of jurispudence and the way the law develops. Such a ruling says that China is unfit for a female child to grow up in. If this precedence is indeed ratified, it would mean that in the eyes of the laws of Tenessee, all chinese girls should be wrapped up and bundled off to the USA. If you see any sense in such a ruling you must be blind.

"Why would you want anyone to live in a country where the government has the mandate and the power to do anything it wants, including jail and kill its citizens?"

Well right now this ruling is in effect empowering the USA to rob another country of her citizens. Is that any more right? I hardly think so.

By Kryptic (Kryptic) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit

From my time in China, one thing I know for certain - the people in China have a very limited, distorted view of their country. It's not their fault, though, the government HEAVILY controls the media, the education, and all forms of knowledge transfer. You can't even get to CNN, BBC News, or other sites (they may filter by content now rather than entire site) - there's a COUNTRY WIDE filter on news. In almost every circumstance that I brought up that related to something negative about China, I knew far more about what was going on there than my local friends. They didn't know about the Falung Gong murders, the murders in Tibet, the political prisoners being taken over the SARS issue (the doctor who warned the country is in jail, since it ultimately cast China in a bad light), or female infanticide. If they knew anything about it, all they knew was some horribly inaccurate twisted propaganda line.

Although I respect your view, Pebbles, having grown up there - you've certainly seen more than I have, I'm sure, and know the country from a perspective that my limited experience working and living there cannot afford - unfortunately, I'm not convinced that that gives you knowledge to what life is like in China, when we're concerned with the darker side of that culture. Female infanticide is happening TODAY, and not in rare numbers. There have been a million discussions over this, a million studies, and they all cry out for reform. And yes, China is not as bad as Japan for subjugation of women's rights - and it boasts many 'firsts' that the West cannot claim - but carefully sit down and talk to men and women about their roles, about how decisions are made, about what opportunities are open to them, and you'll see a dichotomy. If you're Chinese yourself, it may be a bit tougher filtering out what you just take for granted being part of the culture, but there are tangible differences. Women there just are not as independant and free as they are here. That's not a big "Yay, USA!" claim - any advancement we've made here has only been within the past 20-30 years - but it's a difference.

Anyways, I bring these issues up because I do like China, I do like the Chinese culture (it's certainly one of the richest on the planet), and I do want things to improve there. It's hard to see the problems in your own culture (how many people in the South really think racism is a problem?), but that doesn't mean that the problems don't exist. If we want to move towards a better global society, we need to have a better respect for human rights and gender equality. God that sounds PC, but given some of the extreme circumstances in the world (e.g. women in Japan not even really able to report being molested on the subway, female circumcision in africa, female infanticide in china/india, etc.), I don't think we can call ourselves a 'civilized race' until we all fight to rectify these bigger issues.

By Webhappy2 (Webhappy2) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:36 am: Edit

My belief is that at the moment, females are more likely to make money than males -- eg. factory work, retail sales, etc. Admittedly, there might be some limitations compared to males, but those jobs surely beat the agricultural jobs!

Kryptic, you bring good points, but you fail to mention that economic progress will tend to bring other benefits as well. I think China will continue to improve socially as its economy does.

BTW, I think this specific ruling is tough to judge because of the unique circumstance regarding the child's last 2 years--when she did not even see her biological parents! There also needs to be a premise that the foster parents would somehow teach the child Chinese and the Chinese culture... (put another way, it kind of sucks for the foster parents to put all this effort to raise a child)

By Bluebaron1616 (Bluebaron1616) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Why do you have to be so rude Cornelius, do u have any respect what so ever, for youself?

If you have disagreements, state them, but don't try to inflame emotions.

China isn't a horrible place to live, what you said was inconsiderate and immature, plain and simple.

I love China, thought I don't believe in everything that China has to offer right now. I don't turn my back on my country.

It is like how terrorists say America is a "horrible" place to live because their views are inconsistent, and we all know that isn't true.

By Bellevueteen (Bellevueteen) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

You can't simply state that being Chinese is a crime in the South..

By Mitodnaman (Mitodnaman) on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Belle...being anything other than white is a crime in the South.

Students and teachers alike make unjustifiable remarks about my accent, the way I pronounce things....and quite often they just say "I can't understand you" and start laughing.

I was very vocal in India, used to debate quite eloquently. But, a week or two in the debate team, I have realized that it wasn't worth the mental torture.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:07 am: Edit

I am not from the South, but I think it's very foolish and inconsiderate to say that "being anything other than white is a crime in the South" or to generalize all Tennesseans. There are many respectable, decent people in the South and many ignorant and intolerant people in the North. Enough with this.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Then how do you explain that racist Tennessee judge?

By Stanfordnualum (Stanfordnualum) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

Did the judge smoke pot or something? What the hell was he thinking?

Advice to all Chinese graduate students in TN: if you have a child/baby, you'd better not to return to China after graduation or your child/baby would be taken away!

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

"Then how do you explain that racist Tennessee judge?"

Are you serious? There are racist people everywhere.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 01:41 pm: Edit

In judge positions? Not where I live. I suppose racist KKK-type judges are common in the South though. Thank god I didn't choose to go to college there.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 02:10 pm: Edit

What no fullride at Vanderbilt or Duke? Hey Stanfordman...racism against Asian Americans is not just in the South. Look at the persecution of Wen Ho Lee by the US government and that was just at the Livermore Labs...or look at the trumped up case against Major Yee (muslim army chaplain previously at Gitmo) who is a Chinese American graduate of West Point. Hey...what is nuts is the xenophobia against your own citizens who are hard working contributors to American Society(across the fabric of America, from 1847 to now.) Aww...well.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

I know all of that is horrendous. But the case of this daughter being taken away really angers me beyond belief.....even more so than the other cases. This goes far beyond harassment and wrongful prosecution. This is the case where a judge in Tennessee can take away one of the most important fundamental human rights, the right to raise your own kid, from a group of people based on race. Does that mean that if I move to Tennessee some white person can take away my son or my daughter forever? Jesus Christ!

By Bellevueteen (Bellevueteen) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:03 am: Edit

So you've met all of the Southern judges and concluded that they are racist? I am an Asian at Duke and I haven't gotten any harassment. Therefore, Asians in the South face no harassment.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:11 pm: Edit

I went to Wal-Mart today and bought a twinkie. Some bannanas were on sale too.

By Bellevueteen (Bellevueteen) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Ad hominem attacks with racial overtones? Isn't that the kind of thing you were arguing against in the first place? Desperate and not worthy of someone going to Stanford.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

No I was just surprised that you could shrug off such a blood boiling case like this one and say "I am an Asian at Duke and I haven't gotten any harassment. Therefore, Asians in the South face no harassment." That's tantamount to saying, "Well I am Asian and I go to Duke and nobody bothered me...so who cares about any of the other Asian Americans or Asian immigrants who are suffering racism in the South. If I'm not affected, I don't give a crap." It's just that type of selfish, complacent attitude that is hurting Asian Americans across the nation. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, and we as a group never ever make a peep. That saddens me.

By Bellevueteen (Bellevueteen) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

No, what I was doing is paralleling your argument along the other extreme (I don't seriously believe that...) to show you how the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Of course there is racism in the South, and of course I feel that it should be stopped. I suppose this case is a bit more significant than I first made it out to be, the statements made by the Bakers are extremely racist, and if there was a conscious effort to keep the Hes from learning the law, then this is quite outrageous. (Is there some sort of fund going around for them?)
Still though, I dont agree with such extreme arguments as, "being Asian is a crime in the South". I fear that if we keep making those, people might not take our opinions seriously (yes I know, they really don't right now), and we might be viewed with the same ridicule as the African-American movement is viewed with now ("race card" is an unfair charge labeled on many discriminated blacks). In essence I agree with you, but not to the extent that you have stated.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

I don't view the African American movement with any ridicule, and I full-heartedly agree with them that there is so much injustice in this country against blacks. Racial profiling, job discrimination, police brutality, and the plethora of other issues that the Black American movement is concerned about is not ridiculous at all. Well, at least not to me.

As with any movement for change, there will be conservatives trying to stop it. People thought the Civil Rights movement was going too far and that the blacks were playing the race card then too. The fight to legalize gay marriage is also taking ridicule. Yet 50 or perhaps a 100 years down the road people will look back and see how narrow-minded and discriminatory we all were for not letting gays get married, just as how we think it was racist for the conservative southern whites to oppose civil rights. "Playing the race card" is just a misguided label people use because they are afraid of change, afraid of true racial equality.

By Bellevueteen (Bellevueteen) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Agreed, and I feel that 100 years is far too long to wait for any equality.

By Cornelius (Cornelius) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 02:52 am: Edit

What world do you live in Stanfordman?

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Cornelius didn't you write this:

"If given the choice whether to be adopted by Bill Gates or live with my biological mother, who is a Chinese immigrant coincidentally, I would choose Bill Gates and I think my mother would fully support me in that decision."

"I think she would be better off in a rich white family in America than in a normal family in China, biological or not."

"China is a horrible country with a horrible human rights record. Why on earth would you want anyone to live in a communist country where you can be arrested for speaking your mind? Why on earth would you want a little girl to live in a country where foreign reporters are jailed at will? Why would you want anyone to live in a country where the government has the mandate and the power to do anything it wants, including jail and kill its citizens?"

I can't believe you're that racist, and I feel sorry for you. If your mother truly is Chinese, which I highly doubt, then you must have a ton of self-hatred.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Stanforman...don't be so harsh. Cornelius is just pointing out material quality of life issues here. (Afterall we are Asian-AMERICANS...China was obviously sufficiently FU'd to cause migration of what ever generation...in my case I am 4th generation...Amy Tan's "Joy Luck Club" was a classic example why Chinese emigrate). Obviously however there are reasons to grow up with one's biological parents in their cultural setting. However the case that you cite seems to be very complex. From reading the article I understand that the child never grew up with her biological parents and for the 5 years of her life has only known the white couple as her parents. What would be the psychological implications of removing the child from her environment , the only one she has ever known and thrust her into a completely different environment. Which would be more detrimental to the child? What would be more devastating? Obviously the child is presently in a loving and well cared for and stable environment. The biologic parents are in an unstable environment (the father having lost his position at University of Memphis for legal problems and apparently not reinstated) and have an uncertain future no matter what country they live in. I do understand that when they gave up the child they thought it was temporary...but they still had to give up the child. Is there a better safety net in China with their extended families? And if that was the case why didn't they return to China to take advantage of that instead of giving up the child? I think there are issues here that run deeper than just knee jerk racism. So...I think you ought not to be so harsh to Cornelius.

By Cornelius (Cornelius) on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

I don't think stanfordman understands what racism is. Racism is being prejudiced against one or a number of races. It is believing that one or a number of races are superior and the others are inferior.

I think that anything that goes against any Asian would be considered "injustice" by stanfordman. Your Chinese uncle got laid off? Injustice! Racism! Those damn hicks! You lost a court case to a white person? The judge was obviously racist.

Stanfordman, you are the only racist in this discussion. To you blood and race is everything, environment, wealth, quality of life, and actual parenthood is nothing.

If you want to go on thinking that America is a fundamentally racist country and there is some kind of racial war going on, fine, I'm not going to speak any more on this.