Bye Bye Berkeley

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College Discussion Forums: Individual Schools: US News Top 25: University of California - Berkeley: Bye Bye Berkeley

I got accepted off the waiting list from Cornell today. It was my first choice.

It'll be sad parting ways with Berkeley.

By Itempest (Itempest) on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

I chose Berkeley over Cornell anyway...ah well.

Congrats and I wish you luck.

By Tavilach (Tavilach) on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 06:40 pm: Edit

I chose it over Cornell, too.

Congrats, though !

By Flamingo (Flamingo) on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 09:52 pm: Edit

But, what about Caltech? (I just got off their waiting list.) For the record, I intend to study bioengineering.

By Theworldismine (Theworldismine) on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:19 pm: Edit

WAAAAAAIIIIIT a second! You got a letter from Cornell already saying you're off the waiting list??? They told me late May! When did you get this letter?

By Jon (Jon) on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 02:28 am: Edit

hey congratulations, cornells an awesome school, but of course i dont have to tell you that. hope you dont mind the cold though!

jon

By Thekgb (Thekgb) on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

me too, I chose Berkeley over Cornell.

By Radiosurf (Radiosurf) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:01 pm: Edit

I choose Berkeley over Cornell too!!! WOOO BERKELEY!

By Donotdisturb (Donotdisturb) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 02:01 am: Edit

I chose berkeley over MIT


yeah right

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:02 pm: Edit

MIT=suicide capital of collegiate world

By Edmoney (Edmoney) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Cornell is up there too for suicide. I heard they post guards near the gorge after chemistry midterms.

By Ivyleaguer55 (Ivyleaguer55) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 03:38 am: Edit

Awesome! I choose Cornell over Berkeley, I'll always be loyal to the Westside though

By Xtheonex (Xtheonex) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 09:48 pm: Edit

I just got into Northwestern off the waitlist and I will be going there... Does anyone know how I can cancel my enrollment at Berkeley?

By Icewizard008 (Icewizard008) on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit

I chose Berkeley over Cornell.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:13 pm: Edit

I'm surprised how many of you guys are turning down Ivy League schools to come to Berkeley. Back when I was applying, I would've gladly turned down Berkeley for the Ivies...but I made the mistake of applying to the wrong Ivies. I only applied to HYP, the three most selective Ivy League schools. Looking back on it, I really should've applied to Columbia, Cornell, and Penn instead because I would've stood a much better chance of acceptance. My college counselor pressured me to apply to the other Ivies, but I thought I was applying to enough private schools and didn't want to add more to the list.

By Esun (Esun) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Eliteconnect, it depends on the major. I didn't even apply to Harvard, for example, because IMO their strenghts are not what I'm interested in necessarily. Princeton and MIT, however, I would've been glad to attend (physics and/or computer science are strong there). However, Berkeley is ranked extremely high in EECS (my major), #2 only to MIT, so why would I choose any other Ivy League over it? Besides which, they gave me lots of $$.

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:03 am: Edit

I think Berkeley has more name-brand recognition than all of the lower ivies.

By Irock1ce (Irock1ce) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:41 pm: Edit

eliteconnect- berkeley would crush columbia,cornell and penn in name recognition... aside from HYPSM (C-not really.. caltech is tooo much of a specialized school), Berkeley would probably come in as the next school most recognized and great school.

By Foreignboy (Foreignboy) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:45 pm: Edit

I disagree. Outside California, any Ivy League school is more prestigious than Berkeley, even if the only reason is that they are in the Ivy League.

By Khan (Khan) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:37 am: Edit

I know this is a bit of a controversial subject, but here it goes anyway:

The problem is, many don't even know that some of the lower ivies are even in the ivy league until they stumble across this association on 'accident' while researching / applying to colleges (I think especially true of Dartmouth and to lesser extent Brown, Penn, and Cornell). A common characteristic (not definition) of prestige, is wide-spread recognition of a school's name (prior to any sort of association with a league). In other words, did you know this was a prestigious school before reading that it IS from a brochure? (i.e. brochure from Dartmouth touting their ivy league association. ?)

Berkeley does not need to be associated with a league to have recognition/prestige nationwide. It has done this on its own. Other excellent examples of this are Stanford and MIT.

As an aside, I do realize that there is a difference between name-recognition and prestige. However, I think these are somewhat related. In my opinion, once a university has established a high degree of academic reputation (I'm including selectivity, faculty, honors, etc. as part of this), the degree of prestige in large part is determined by name recognition. Name recognition helps increase the prestige of a university. I will not be bringing up schools like Ohio State, Nebraska, etc. in this discussion because although they may have high name recognition, they don't have the academic reputation piece (I don't mean to sleight OSU and Nebraska - sorry!).

What about Cal Tech then you ask? CalTech doesn't necessarily have wide-spread recognition but is prestigious you say? CalTech is a bit of an extreme/anomalous case - it has become prestigious primarily on academic reputation (the first requirement). It really hasn't garnered much from general name-recognition. It has gotten what I call white-collar prestige- known to people "in the know." They are listed with HYPSM which is a great testament to their strong academics. However, notice how they are always listed after HYPSM or altogether forgotten .

Anyway, back to the original point. We are comparing Berkeley to the lower ivies. Many of the lower ivies garner much of their prestige through their association with Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (being in the same athletic league) thereby implying they are in the same league prestige-wise as HYP. (Don't get me wrong - these schools are great schools in their own right.)

The ivy league is prestigious, but some of the schools in the ivy league aren't as prestigious as the name 'ivy league.' In other words, someone in the general populace will instantly recognize the term 'ivy league' but will not instantly recognize (on average) schools like Dartmouth, Brown, and Cornell. Even once a lower ivy league school's association with the ivy league is known, I still don't think many of the lower ivies are as recognized/prestigious as much as Berkeley.

For what it's worth, even a recent gallup poll supports this (I know, I know). In this poll, people across the nation were asked which university they thought was the best. The most common university names that came across people's minds are: Harvard, Stanford, Yale, MIT, and Cal-Berkeley. http://www.gallup.com/content/login.aspx?ci=9109
Click on 'The Nation's Top Colleges.'

Yup. Mind you, these were the most common answers across the nation (not just in certain regions). There were, as expected, some regional differences which implies Cal is not as prestigious on the east coast as on the west coast, but Cal still pops up more often than any other school outside of HYSM across the nation. Conspicuously missing is Princeton - which provides even more fodder to support the idea that Cal is more prestigious than the lower ivies.

Anyway, my point is: At worst, I think Cal is just as prestigious as any of the lower ivies. At best, I think it's more prestigious than the lower ivies but not as prestigious as HYPSMC. Granted, as a Cal Alum, I am obviously a bit biased...

**Oh boy, I could see some nasty posts coming**

By Stanfordman99 (Stanfordman99) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:42 am: Edit

I may have a biased opinion because I live in California, but I agree with the above post completely.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Unfortunately, much of that 2003 Gallup article that is referred to by the link is open only to subscribers, so I can't read it.

However, the 1999 Gallup information is available and indicates that according to the perceptions of the general public of what is the "best" school, Penn State is one of the "best" schools in the country, UCLA is also mentioned, and Berkeley is nowhere to be found.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/archives/intercom_1999/Sept16/gallup.html

By Sh1rley (Sh1rley) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Sakky, just click on the above link and you will see the Berkeley name in the same sentence as Harvard, Yale and MIT. You do not have to subscribe to read the intro paragraph.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 02:21 am: Edit

If Sakky would read or listen to the video he would find:
August 26, 2003

Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public
Stanford and Yale in second place

by Frank Newport

When asked to name the best college or university in the nation, one out of four Americans name Harvard as their first or second choice, more than twice as many as name any other college. Stanford and Yale are next most frequently mentioned, followed by MIT, the University of California at Berkeley, Notre Dame, and Princeton. These top-of-mind rankings from the general public contrast somewhat with those published by U.S. News and World Report over the weekend. The U.S. News rankings, based on a complex set of quantitative criteria, show Harvard and Princeton tied as the top national universities.

Nation wide for poll conducted July 18-20, 2003
Question: What is the best U.S. College or University?

Nationwide:
Harvard 24%
Yale 24%
Stanford 24%
MIT 6%
Cal Berkeley 4%

East:
Harvard
Yale/Princeton
Stanford/MIT
Penn State
UPenn

Midwest:
Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame

South:
Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Duke
Texas A&M

West:
Harvard
Stanford
Cal Berkeley
Yale/MIT
UCLA

Dr. Newport in the video concludes the best name brand recognition is Harvard, Yale, Stanford.

This poll of course speaks to the question of prestige or name recognition (name brand) in the minds of the public.

By Twojaw (Twojaw) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 02:24 am: Edit

oops.

I missed typed the nationwide poll.

Harvard 24%
Stanford 11%
Yale 11%
MIT 6%
Cal Berkeley 4%

By Alexandre (Alexandre) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 02:38 am: Edit

I don't how it is in the US, but in Europe and the Middle East, Cal-Berkeley blows away most Ivy League schools. Only Harvard, MIT, Stanford, wharton (not Penn mind you) and maybe Johns Hopkins, Columbia, Cornell and Yale are as (not more mind you) repected. You guys have to understand. Internationally, people only care about three fields of study:

Business
Engineering
Medicine

Everything else simply isn't worth studying in the eyes of most international parents.

That is why schools like Cal-Berkeley and Michigan are better known than schools like Brown or Dartmouth or even Princeton.

The only exception to the rule is Georgetown, which is very highly respected despite its not having top ranked departments in Engineering, Business or Medicine.

But back to the original point, Cornell vs Cal-Berkeley. Is there a difference? You cannot lose either way. We are talking about two of the top 10 universities in the country.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Alexandre, I don't want to call you on this one, because it is rather cheesy. But if you say that international people care only about business, engineering, and medicine, then how is it exactly that international people can care about Berkeley so much, given that Berkeley doesn't have a medical school?

And to twojaw, how exactly am I supposed to read or listen to the video, if it's a subscriber-only feed? Do you want to give me your subscriber ID? Or do you want to direct me to a link that provides the video for free?

To Sh1rley, I can read the paragraph just as well as you can. But that's not the point. The point is that I want to read the entire article so that I can understand it in depth, but I cannot, because, like I said, it's open only to subscribers. What I do know is that Gallup ran a similar poll in 1999 and somehow concluded that Penn State was great. I don't dispute the poll itself in that I have no doubt that Gallup really did find what they found, I just question how much value a particular poll can be if one year, it ranked Penn State to be one of the best schools in the country. Even Twojaw's post indicates that in 2003, Gallup found that people in the East still considered Penn State to be a top school. So what does that tell you about the validity of the poll?

And please don't come back by saying that the 1999 Gallup poll, which apparently rated Penn State over Berkeley, is a bad one, but the 2003 Gallup poll is a good one. You can't pick and choose like that. You can't choose to like a poll just because one year it presents results that you like, but reject the poll if in another year, it presents results you don't like. You either have to accept the poll in its entirety, or reject it in its entirety. If you honestly believe that the Gallup poll is a useful one to use, then if in some year in the future, Gallup finds that once again, Berkeley is somehow ranked as not being as good as Penn State, then you have to accept those results.

By Khan (Khan) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Sakky, you don't need a subscription to watch the video. Go to the link again, and you'll see a link on the right under 'The Nation's Top Colleges.' It's listed a bit misleadingly under "related items." I don't have a subscription either and so don't have access to the written article, but the video sums it up well.

http://www.gallup.com/content/login.aspx?ci=9109

By Khan (Khan) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Also, Sakky- I don't think Alexandre was saying that a school needs to be well known for all 3 areas (business, engineering, medicine), but rather that a school is well known for at least 1 or more of these areas to be popular/prestigious internationally. Why else would Harvard, Yale, and Johns Hopkins come up? Certainly not for their engineering programs? And why would MIT come up? Certainly not for their med school?!

By Alexandre (Alexandre) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Sakky, why do international people respect Johns Hopkins so much? They do not have a Business School. Why does do international people love MIT? They do not have a medical school. The point is, Berkeley, like MIT, is one of the meccas of Engineering. Johns Hopkins is the ultimate Medical school. As such, the international community value Cal, MIT and Johns Hopkins a great deal.

As for how true the statement about international people only caring about Business, Engineering anf Medicine is, just look at the number %age of internationals who major in a field other than CS/Engineering, Business/Economics or Biology or Chemistry (Premed)/Medicine. I would say that over 90% of international major in those fields.

By Sakky (Sakky) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Um, first of all, Johns Hopkins does indeed have a business school.

http://business.jhu.edu/

But that's all a matter of quibbling. My point is that I do not agree that as far as international prestige is concerned, that it's all a simple matter of only looking at business, engineering, and medicine. It's not that simple. While I agree with you that international students do tend to study technical fields or engineering, whether that translates into general international prestige is a different story. I think a better way to ascertain such prestige is to figure out which school would a given international student really want to go to if given the chance? For example, I'd find it difficult indeed for an international student, especially an undergraduate, to turn down Yale or Princeton to go to Michigan instead. Be honest - do you think that the majority (over 50%) of international students would choose Michigan over Yale/Princeton? I think if you're being honest, you would have to agree probably not. But why not, if Michigan truly were more prestigious?

Yet I think the best counterexample is Ox-bridge. Think about how prominent Ox-bridge is within the international community, especially in in the Commonwealth. Think about how many prominent politicians and businessmen in India, Australia, Pakistan, South Africa, Pakistan, Singapore, etc. that are Ox-bridge graduates. I think we can all agree that Ox-bridge are 2 schools that are tremendously prominent when it comes to international prestige. For example, I think we can all agree that not too many international students are going to turn down Oxford to go to Michigan.

But if it's all about engineering, business, and medicine, then why would Ox-bridge be so prominent? Ox-bridge isn't exactly known for superstar engineering, business, and medicine (Cambridge is very well known for the sciences, but not necessarily for engineering). Don't get me wrong, they're pretty good at engineering, business, and medicine. But they're not exactly huge. As far as Harvard is concerned, you can say that Harvard has the top-ranked medical and business school. MIT does indeed have the top ranked engineering school. Ox-bridge have business,medical, and engineering schools that are good, but not exactly top-ranked. Yet Ox-bridge is tremendously coveted by the international community anyway. Ask yourself, why is that?


And to khan, I think I saw that video awhile back and I'm familiar with the contents. My point is not to quibble about the poll itself but rather to demonstrate its problems. I don't think anybody here would seriously argue that Penn State is a "better" school than Cal, yet that's precisely what Gallup found in 1999. After all, is anybody seriously going to turn down Cal to go to Penn State, unless it's a matter of cost? What that goes to show is that perhaps the way Gallup measures what is 'better' is not a good way to truly measure quality.

But hey, if you honestly believe that the Gallup poll is valid, then by all means, feel free to use it. Just make sure that you stick to your convictions. For example, in the future, if Gallup finds out once again that Penn State or the College of Xanadu is better than Cal, then you have to accept that as true. If you accept the Gallup poll as valid in one particular year, then you have to accept it in every year. You can't just pick and choose whichever one you like. You either have to take all of them, or none of them.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 06:03 pm: Edit

That Gallup poll is CLEARLY a huge crock of nonsense. No one in academia would ever place Penn State higher than Berkeley on the academic totem pole. For graduate study, Berkeley is generally regarded as one of the top 3 overall graduate schools in the nation. The other 2 schools that join Berkeley in this category are Stanford and Harvard. For undergraduate study, Berkeley is generally thought of as a classic backup for Ivy League schools and Stanford. In this category, we find schools like University of Chicago (40%+ acceptance rate), Johns Hopkins University, Northwestern University, Georgetown (classic backup for Penn), and Emory University. In the past, Duke was considered a backup for the Ivies but that is definitely no longer true today given its huge increase in selectivity and subsequent leap in the US News ranking. I'm a Berkeley student and even I'll admit that Berkeley is a GREAT backup for the Ivy League schools (only if you're in-state and not applying to the College of Engineering). Had I been accepted to the Ivies I applied to back in senior year, I would've gladly gone.

By Ilikenietzsche (Ilikenietzsche) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 07:02 pm: Edit

I hate to quibble about acceptance rates, but it's a myth that Chicago accepts 40% of its applicants. According to the 2003 Fiske Guide to colleges, Chicago's acceptance rate the previous year was 33%. I'm sure it's dropped even further by now.

By Apacolypse (Apacolypse) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Twojaw, actually NYU = suicide capital of the collegiate world. 7 in the past year. 2 in the past week.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/07/nyregion/07jump.html

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 08:38 pm: Edit

"I hate to quibble about acceptance rates, but it's a myth that Chicago accepts 40% of its applicants. According to the 2003 Fiske Guide to colleges, Chicago's acceptance rate the previous year was 33%. I'm sure it's dropped even further by now."

Back when I was applying, I'm pretty sure the acceptance rate was around 44%. Although I'm not very surprised that last year's acceptance rate was down to 33%...all schools are becoming incrementally more selective as the # of applications to top schools soars. However, acceptancer rate is a poor metric of selectivity because even UCLA has a lower acceptance rate than the University of Chicago and Northwestern. However, I think UCLA is more selective because the average SATs for U of Chicago and Northwestern are much higher than the average SAT among the freshman pool at UCLA.

By Eliteconnect (Eliteconnect) on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 12:20 am: Edit

Edit: I meant to say...I think UCLA is less*** selective (as compared to Chicago and Northwestern).