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As much as I think of myself, I become angry. I got no EC whatsoever (except the Internship at the Discovery Science Center) I feel very depressed, and as a very mathematical person, I frankly calculated that I cannot make into MIT, even though how perfect I am on othersides. I am a rising Junior and desperately need opportunities for EC. My school sucks and have no math team, robotics team, etc...

Any suggestions for EC that I should try next year?

By Deerhunter (Deerhunter) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Refute Pythagoras' pompous little theorem.

Or restructure it. Why does it have to be a^2 + b^2 = c^2. It should be j^2 + e^2 = w^2

That's letterism and I will not stand for it. The letters at the end of the alphabet have endured those pangs at the soul that can only come from letterism. They have spent years of agony envying that priviledged trio. All letters should have the opportunity to be represented! Stand up to the man!

By Kousuke (Kousuke) on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:33 pm: Edit

start those math and science clubs up, participate in science olympiad get yourself and your school involved. then not only will you have started clubs, you will be president/founder, you will have clubs you enjoy, you will have opportunities to show colleges how you can take initiative and win medals. its a win win situation. if there is a club that you wish existed and would truely enjoy being a part of, start it up. as long as you do stuff for it, colleges wont think its a bullcrap club that you just started to impress them.

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 12:47 am: Edit

Thanks, Kousuke.
And I just don't know what Deerhunter is talking about.

I actually thought of making a math/robotics club with the brightest minds of my school but I could not find a teacher who would supervise the club(s). And there are lots of file work involved (well, I got no problem with that).

So, Ya........... I am trying and college wouldn't know that.

By Thermodude (Thermodude) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:14 am: Edit

Ultimatemath...if possible...since you are a mathematically oriented individual...you should try to take the AMC (First test for the math olympiad...I regret not knowing about it until it was too late). If you score well on that, and the AIME, you could make it to the USAMO..which would significantly increase your chances for MIT. Also...there are other olympiad contests besides math that you could do...they have them in Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Computer Science. If you do well in any of these olympiads, it too, would help with ur app. to MIT/Cal Tech.

By Ubercollegeman (Ubercollegeman) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:50 am: Edit

I often find out that a lot of people who think they're mathematically oriented take the AMC and soon find out just how non-mathematically oriented they are .

The AMC12 is brutal. The AIME is killer. The USAMO will make you feel like a paste-eating second grader .

By Cooldude (Cooldude) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 03:43 am: Edit

how true!

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 09:32 pm: Edit

To Ubercollegeman,


I knew about AMC and my old high school had it(I later transferred to different high school before sophomore year)

So I took AMC as a joke....well, my math teacher told me it was some math test and she would like to see my taking the test, no matter how bad the score is. So I took it and got 98-ish.

I am not bragging, but I thought it was darn easy. Later I realized I just took AMC, not "some math test." I should have never taken that as a joke.


The BAD THING is my current school doesn' sponsor AMC. It suXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

and USAMTS is not better than AMC.

By Midwesterner (Midwesterner) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:55 am: Edit

Ultimatemath, you should keep pushing your HS to offer the AMC. It's cheap and prestigious. Have you sat down with the head of the math department and had a solid discussion about this? Try it, and get background material and registration information from the AMC website to illustrate your points.

If this fails (and, by November, you should know) then try to take the test through another high school. Sometimes a small school will not offer the test, and their students are allowed to register at another HS. Contact the head of the other math department and inquire, well ahead of the date of the test, which is earlier this year than in the past.

Take a look at the ARML website and see if there is a regional math team in your area (kind of a math all-star team). ARML competition is the first week of June, but team tryouts are much earlier, some before Christmas. This is a great group for getting to know the best math students in your region.

Another source for online classes and discussions is artofproblemsolving.com

It's not lack of opportunity that is holding you back from EC's, it's your lack of persistance. You may have to try 10 or 20 ways to get one club or competition going. It sounds daunting, but the truth is that you will learn so much more by trying and failing than you will from easy success. You learn how organize, how to size up people, how to be effective in a short interview, how to maximize your resources, etc. It's the greatest training there is, because it teaches you how the real world works. Good luck.

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

Thanks, Midwesterner.

I actually organized a bunch of people, and I was looking for a teacher supervisor. However, my math teacher already sponsors another club, which is California Scholarship Federation. So I am looking foward to see my next year's math teacher, who would hopefully agree to supervise us.

By Midwesterner (Midwesterner) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Ultimate-
Also look for teachers in related disciplines (physics, chem, econ) who might think math competitions are a good idea. You don't necessarily need the greatest teacher to be a sponsor. My son did almost all the coaching for his junior class team this year because the school-appointed teacher wasn't well versed in the type of problems posed in math league. To her credit, she was very willing to work with a student and let him take charge. So, look around for the top math guy or girl (which may be just you!) and get going on those problem sets!

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Hi, Ultimatemath
It is possible that someone other than a teacher may be able to coach a team. In my son's middle school, the Science Olympiad coach was a dentist - and the mom of one of the other members. She has taken the team to Nationals twice - so it is possible. If you know a mathie or science type professional (or your folks do), you might be able work something out.

NASA Glenn is doing a Dime Science competition - you need four kids plus a supervisor for that.

Good luck with your projects. Remember that MIT has a new admissions director; the legendary admissions grid may be shaken up a bit. You shouldn't count on MIT. But, neither should you give up.

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Thanks, everyone.

I am not really worried about coaching. I can coach as well as (probably better) than most math/science in school. (the contest problems does not require high math like Chaos theory) However, the school *requires* a supervisor, who should be a teacher/faculty memeber at the school. This is the part that I am having a problem.

By Ubercollegeman (Ubercollegeman) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

A 98 is definitely a good score, but it won't help you with admission to MIT. If you want to be an MIT math major, I'm guessing at least 80% of them qualified for the AIME (100+ score) and a few qualified for USAMO. 150 is a perfect score on the AMC12, and a few people get it nationally every year (although they're nuts).

Take Tiankai Liu this year. 150 on BOTH the AMC12A and AMC12B, 15/15 on the AIME, and a perfect paper on the USAMO (only perfect paper this year). Talk about a hat trick.

Very few math competitions for high schoolers have calculus problems. Everything is pre-calculus but hard pre-calculus.

Try to join your local ARML team if there is one.

Also, I don't know how you can call the AMC12 "darn easy" when you didn't even get 2/3 of the points available.

By Albertfermat (Albertfermat) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 07:01 pm: Edit

heed the words of Uber, he is a very smart man

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Ultimatemath,
Right - but does the supervisor absolutely *have* to be a teacher? Would a retired teacher be interested, or an emeritus faculty from a local collage or university? You may have to beat the bushes for the right person, but I think you should be able to manage. Especially if you have your club organized and everything in place except the responsible adult. Surely you can guilt someone into it.

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 11:12 pm: Edit

To Ubercollegeman.

Well, I don't think 98 is not a good score. I take a personal shame in that. There are lots of excuses explaining why I got such a low score on AMC, including the fact that I was in physical problem, but I won't say any thing about that since every person can make up his/her excuse.

I was exaggerating when I said "darn easy" but I still remain with my point that the some problems could (or should) have been much more challenging than they actually were.

Really, too bad AMC is not in my school. Is there any individual national contest that I can participate besides USAMTS?

BTW "Ubercollegeman" sounds like German, as in Sigmund Freud's Uberman

By 1212 (1212) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit

AMC isnt that hard (atleast the first 15 problems, which should be your 100+ points), but when it comes to AIME, it gets to be a b*tch and thats where ppl fall, its a 3 hour test, and after that theres a 6 hour test i believe, crazy stuff. u should note that most ppl that enter MIT pretty much go over 100 on the AMC atleast.

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

1212

Yeah, I think most people going to MIT have the ability to score over 100. I took AMC during my freshman year. As I said, 98 is not a terrific score.

By Ubercollegeman (Ubercollegeman) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

For me, the first ten questions are cake, the next five are easy, the next five vary from fairly easy to fairly difficult, and the last five range from fairly medium/hard to extremely difficult.

By Ejpowers87 (Ejpowers87) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 12:31 am: Edit

for me they go from cake to... pie

im sorry that was terrible i dont even know what you guys are talking about

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 11:02 am: Edit

Correction: "Well, I don't think 98 is not a good score."

What I meant to say: Well, I don't think 98 is a good score.

I confused myself with double negatives

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 11:08 am: Edit

Again, as I said, some of the questions should have been harder.

I am going for 130+ if I can take it next year.
Of course, I want 150 if I can, but even though that is possible, I don't want to give myself pressure.

By Iboycottoxygen (Iboycottoxygen) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Ultimatemath -- I will be attending MIT as a freshman this fall, and I had essentially no EC's at the same stage as you. This is what I did:

Community Service, as much and as often as possible. I have played soccer since I was little, so little kids soccer camps were perfect.

Start clubs. I had no science/math related clubs: I started a philosophy club and joined art club. I also became an officer in National Honor Society.

Take the hardest possible schedule at your school. I took three sciences Junior year and that helped me tremendously.

Leadership camps over next summer as well as a Science internship if you can arrange one.

Try out for at least one sports team.

And importantly -- show them personality on the application, give other interests besides math/science. They like well rounded kids.

You are busy, but it will be worth it in the end. This is what worked for me anyway. Remember to keep your grades up as well (especially in English/History)!

I hope that helps.

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

Thank you very much, Iboycottoxygen. It helped a lot!!

I am getting 150 hours of com. service this summer as an intern at the Discovery Science Center.

I am taking two sciences and two math classes next year.

I tried out for a tennis team but failed. I know I can make it now, but I don't want to drop out one of my math classes.

And about being well rounded...hmm, let me think about that.

I will see you at MIT within two years!

By Iboycottoxygen (Iboycottoxygen) on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Hope to see you =)

By Eightpinbowling (Eightpinbowling) on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Though doing well on the AMC is not the most important thing, it's quite important to understand that good AMC scores are a good thing when you apply to colleges.

But what's more important is to do REALLY well on the AIME contest that follows after AMC.

By REALLY well, you should score sufficiently high so that when you add your AMC score divided by 10 with your AIME score, you should get over 200 or 210. Then you'll get invited to write the USAMO. And more importantly, the score you get in your Junior year (gr. 11) is probably the one you can write on the AMC.

By Eightpinbowling (Eightpinbowling) on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:38 pm: Edit

* correction: 200 or 210: sdhould be 20 or 21

By Ultimatemath (Ultimatemath) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 12:25 am: Edit

Thanks Eightpinbowling.

First of all I am still trying to think of a way to participate AMC next year.

Also, I am still considered as an international student in legal terms, so I don't think I can participate the USAMO thing. I really want to, though.

Hopefully, every thing will work perfectly

By Cooldude (Cooldude) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 04:39 am: Edit

i know that paul ryu aka memememe, got invited for the USAMO camp thing and yes he is international

By Eightpinbowling (Eightpinbowling) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 01:07 pm: Edit

I'm not sure about that. Have you checked whether s/he has american citizenship?

2 people from my school last year killed the AMC and the AIME; both scored two digits on the AIME, and 130+ on the AMC, but never wrote the USAMO officially. Btw, they're internationals. They wrote it unofficially for the Canadian Olympiad selection tho.

By Mruncleramos (Mruncleramos) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Pshhh... competition math is lame, it doesn't really measure how talented a student is ... I challenge anybody to name a celebrated mathematician who did really well in competitions. If you do, I will stand corrected.

By Ubercollegeman (Ubercollegeman) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 06:34 pm: Edit

"As one might expect, the list of Putnam winners since 1938 includes many famous mathematicians and scientists. Early winners also included Andrew M. Gleason, Harvey Cohn, and Felix Browder. Winners who have later achieved fame in physics include Richard Feynman, Tai Tsun Wu, James Bjorken, Robert L. Mills, Kenneth G. Wilson, and Barry Simon. Three Putman Fellows (J. W. Milnor, David Mumford, Daniel Quillen) have gone on to win the Fields Medal and two (Feynman and Wilson) later won the Nobel Prize in Physics. In Genius, the biography of Feynman by James Gleick, it is related that Feynman finished the exam early, and the graders were astonished by the gap between Feynman's score and that of his closest competitor."

You stand corrected.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 08:17 am: Edit

Here is a recent article specifically discussing MIT admissions. According to this article, you need to demonstrate to the admissions committee that you really enjoy the activities that you participate in and present as your EC's.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2004/03/11/whats_your_pleasure/

By Mruncleramos (Mruncleramos) on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

i stand corrected, but then again putnam is an excellent competition... but my point was that if one is good at competition math does not necessarily mean that one will be a talented mathematician.

By Eightpinbowling (Eightpinbowling) on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 04:27 pm: Edit

that's true. Some people may have significant talent in solving very difficult problems over a fairly long time, as opposed to being an excellent problem solver who can solve very difficult problems such as those in putnam within the 3 or so hours.

I think your point is more along the line of excellent researchers don't necessarily have to have the fast and efficient problem-solving skills that needed for success on Putnam. Though good, it's not the most important thing.