IB or AP?





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Discus: What Are My Chances?: September 2003 Archive: IB or AP?
By Rayo (Rayo) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:36 am: Edit

Will it look bad to colleges if you don't take the IB program if it is offered in your school?

I did not take it; instead I am doing APs.

thanx

By Clickspring (Clickspring) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:48 am: Edit

yes because it shows that you chose not to take the hardest curriculum offered, but for most colleges (aka non ivy league, top tier), that won't matter. where are you thinking about applying?

By Rayo (Rayo) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 12:49 pm: Edit

I was thinking of applying to Columbia, Pomona, UCLA, and UCB.

I am instate in CA.

By Rubenizm (Rubenizm) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:05 pm: Edit

IB isn't neccesarily harder than AP

By Seventoedsloth (Seventoedsloth) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

I would recommend IB. That is what I am taking now and the reson I chose it is because you can take 7 IB classes and have significantly less homework than if you were taking 7 AP classes. And it still looks good.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Not taking IB wouldn't hurt. Those schools probably prefer AP anyways.

Seventoedsloth,

It gets harder much later on... when you start to have to do all the IB exams (in your case 7 exams) in the same fricken week where one exam is around 5 hours on it's own, plus the two essays you have to do that's around 4000 words, it gets a bit harder. BUT, it should depend on the school. My IB teachers actually told me most IB teachers around the world don't teach their students correctly according to IB standards. For example, the IB year actually starts in October and ends in May, but most schools start teaching IB material in September till June (junior year), and in senior year from September till May (my teachers actually only teach IB material during the IB year and teaches the regular stuff when it's not). some teachers are also wusses. If you say you're full IB, they might not give you homework (from stories i hear atleast) because they think you're brave and that you're already swamped with homework. And in Florida they dumb down IB just so people stay in IB (for gov't funding), my school tries to kick people out (we don't get funding, and nobody wonders why our IB exam average always beat the world average, we know why).

By Nealp (Nealp) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit

IB is definatly much better than ib. it allows you to focus on all subjects. it is comprehensive and when you leave you feel educated and satisfied as a person. ap, on the otherhand, caters to ability in specific subjects so when you leave highschool with say 6 AP courses you feel satisfied in that you have AP credit, but you do not feel like you learned as much or challenged yourself.

When I graduate in 8 months or so I know that I will have had a complete, thorough, and first class education. I tell everybody to do IB over AP. It is better.

The whole florida thing is baffling though. In Kansas our IB program is the best high school program in Wichita, KS. Last year two to Harvard, one to Princeton, UPENN, Chicago, NYU STERNS, 2XWUSTL, Cornell, JHU, MIT, Caltech. we have a 20-25% national merit rate (as in of the approx 80 seniors each year there are about 15-20 finalist. also about 10-15 commended. Many of our students get accepted to ivys and close-to-ivys but go to KU or University of Tulsa instead b/c they offer 30+ cr hours and full scholarships + stipend to nm finalists.

SO. IB KICKS. YES it will look bad if you did not enter the full IB program if it was available.

By Shebs (Shebs) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:00 pm: Edit

If you want to take the hardest ciriculum around, you should take a balanced ammount of AP's and IB's, in my opinion. At my school, many AP classes are also considered IB classes, for instance English and Psychology. Since we get both AP and IB credit for these classes, and we get to take both tests, it makes us look pretty hardcore..haha. So, yes, you should have done IB...but don't lose sleep over something you can't change.

By Nealp (Nealp) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit

ha yeah don't lose sleep. your eyes will become bloodshot. many of our ib classes are ap also or so close that 2 hours of independent study = 5 on ap test. psych calc ab bc bio chem physics (if you want to for your sciences just learn a little xtra ie microbiology for bio, net ionics in detail for chem, dunno about physics...not a big fan). yes. IB kicks.

By Sailorgirl1985 (Sailorgirl1985) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 04:28 pm: Edit

I'm a full diploma IB senior at a school that also offers some AP's, for college applications you have to have taken a full IB diploma program to mark that you've taken the most rigorous program available. I've taken 2 AP tests, Calculus AB and Statstics and found them to be much easier then the IB equivalent for Calculus (Math Methods). From the admissions counselors I've talked to: Duke, Harvard, Georgetown, Cornell, and a few others, they regard the IB Diploma as the most rigorous program available in the US. My school sends at least a dozen kids a year to ivys/near ivys i.e. Duke, Washington U. So to answer your question if it's an extremely selective school I'd say that wouldn't look as good to have not done IB Diploma but if it's less selective i would imagine that they wouldn't care as much.

By Screwed4life (Screwed4life) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I am kinda sick of people always acting like us AP kids are not doing the most rigourous courseload. And people always bragging about how IB is more comprehensive. Hello! If someone took 6 APs they will also feel as educated and satisfied as a IB person. Especially if those 6 APs were in different subject areas!

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 05:59 pm: Edit

At less selective schools, they actually still look at the IB diploma with suspicion. So unless you're planning on applying to the top 20 or so schools, take AP instead. It's not as rigorous, but it guarantees you credit and recognition. IB is still a bit iffy in USA. It's a much more accepted program everywhere else in the world though, but for some reason it's not as wide-spread in USA.

If you're not taking the Diploma, and are only taking the program for the credits. AP is a MUCH better way to go.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 09:36 am: Edit

And in Florida they dumb down IB just so people stay in IB

Sorry, how do they manage this? The IB is independently assessed by the non-governmental company that administers it (the IBO). I doubt very much that the state government in Florida can have forced the IB assessment centre (in Cardiff!) to lower their standards. And if they have dumbed down the IB in Florida, and are still calling it the IB, then I think the IBO has grounds for legal action.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

See this discussion in the high school section.

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?/

By Jamminredheaded (Jamminredheaded) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Take IB. At my former high school, the program allowed for one (if one completed all courses and exams successfully) to complete nearly an entire year's worth of college classes. The costs of the exams I'm sure don't necessarily save you money but timewise, it'll save ya a bunch. There're some people that have had it entered it into their heads to take the high school equivalency test or pass the test for their GED and then from there go straight to a community college. I've never done it myself, but given the opportunity, I might have. Sure, I wouldn't have had the high school experience but I'd have saved myself the agony of high school drama, busy-work, substitute teachers that waste one's time, etc. I like the pace of college, especially in the summer -6 weeks, class, 3hrs. everyday. You're done and over with it. I kind of wish it were that way now but either way I slice it, I'd still end up with the same amount of class work. Eh...whatever...I went off on a tangent...sorry.

By Seventoedsloth (Seventoedsloth) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 04:18 pm: Edit

At my school, they just created a new "certificates" program which as I understand it is in no way supported by IB, but allows people to take a few IB classes instead of all of them. And AP is a joke at my school but I am not sure about others. I took an AP class my sophomire year and it was my easiest class for the year.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Arealtexan,

Trust me, they wouldn't pull legal actions. The exams and homework arn't all the same. All the extra stuff teachers give to pull up your mark depends on the teacher. Why would it matter if the teachers give out easy marks? IB can't and won't pull legal action, because the schools did nothing wrong. IB does not set specific guidelines for accepting students, nor do they give specific homework assignments for every student around the world. They only give you the guideline for what to learn, force you to do orals (which teachers can mark easy on), a bunch of huge essays etc... those will be done, but all the on the side stuff can be given at any difficulty level as wished by the teacher. No where on the guideline does it say "torture the students with questions which require analytical thought and memorization". The thing is that, the classes themselves are dumbed down. The standards are way more laxed. Students get into IB much easier (where anywhere else in the world, the student wouldn't even be considered).

You're logic is so skewed. How can IBO sue? There's no set of exams everybody has to do (except for the IB exam at the end). The teachers can give easy marks if they want to. And the entrance standards of each school is determined by the school itself because of inflation and deflational differences between schools thoughout the US and the world.

It's not a national policy which states "IB schools from now on in the florida region will dumb down IB so that schools will have more IB students", but it is an encouraged thing. IB schools in Florida get gov't funding for every IB student they have, and that's the reason why school's in floridy make their requirement so laxed compared to everybody, else, and the exams the schools and teachers give out are also much easier so that students can stay in IB.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Also, IB only marks a few selected students porfolio when it comes to Labs. If the student does poor, too bad for him. His school mark (which keeps him in IB) don't change. The IB exam, the essays, the CAS, and all other requirements are marked by the IBO after the student had already graduated. Many florida schools do not care if the student do well on those or not, they just make the requirements to get in ridiculously easy just so students can stay in IB, thus increasing school funding, and keep their school based mark high (by giving out easy homework and school exams which DON'T prepare the student well enough for the REAL IB exam) which keeps them in the class (but in no way guarantees a high IB mark). It happens all the time when the gov't give out gov't funding for either IB or AP, the pool gets dumber.

For example, my school doesn't get funding for IB. So nearly everything that is given out can be described as actually being hard. What are the average scores for our IB Diploma students? 6.2 All the dumb kids are weeded out, not kept in for seek of funding.

Many schools in florida don't even get students with individual scores that high, nevermind a group of students with an average that high. It's because they don't carefully weed out the weak students like every other IB school around the world does. At my school, if you suck, you get kicked out of the IB class. Some teachers actually give out exams much harder than even the IB exam (i heard this from people who got 7s on the IB exams). That's true IB. Florida is iffy (not all schools are like that, but enough for me, someone who don't even live in florida, to know about). Cousins of mine who took IB here, and who moved to an IB school in Florida say the homework and exams are so easy, they're basically the top of the class over there without doing much at all.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 06:09 pm: Edit

That also brings up another thought.

Choose the school you go to wisely. Like, just because a school offers IB does not mean they keep to the integrity of IB. This scenario can also be applied to AP. It's not just the program that defines your education, it's also the teachers and standards set in the class.

IB is the better program. But even the best program can be ripped off when bad teachers are involved.

A 5 on the AP is better than a 3 on the IB anytime.

By Geniusash (Geniusash) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I don't know much about the IB program (it isn't offered at my school) but I can tell you the AP program at my school is definately NOT a joke. The homework load is tough, and the tests require studying. As for college credit, I should have a full year done by the time I graduate as well. I know people who have done PSEO, and say that AP classes are harder. I look at the AP progem as a way for me to finish with some of the classes I don't want to focus on in college in high school, like freshman comp.

By Nealp (Nealp) on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 07:29 pm: Edit

IB is better. When I asked the yale regional rep, he said that IB is considered more rigorous than AP. He said that if a student does AP where IB is available, they will be frowned upon. Also, IB is so interconnected and whole. My favorites: Extended essay, cas requirement, theory of knowledge, world lit, hl calculus, and the fact that i am able to take three science classes (hl bio, hl chem, and pre-ib physics) my senior year show me that ib is better.

for ap, most students take just that one class ie AP bio. one year of bio in 4 yrs of high school. in ib, i've had three by the time i graduate: pre-ib bio (ie honors), SL (80% ap equivalent if taken with the right teach), HL (140% AP)). So, i will have 8 science full year credits. thats not possible with ap unless you take all your schools boring classes like field science, cat phys and anatomy, geology, astronomy (ie the weaker science courses) etc.

IB kicks

By Manowar (Manowar) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 01:58 am: Edit

Personally I feel that someone who recieved a 7 in an IB exam proves to understand more of the subject than someone who got a 5 on an AP exam. AP exams concentrate mostly on multiple choice and not of your holistic understanding of the material. IB exams focus on essays and allow one to reveal their knowledge of the subject.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 02:32 am: Edit

(where anywhere else in the world, the student wouldn't even be considered).

Don't kid yourself. There are many schools around the world that only offer the IB diploma for senior students. You aren't a special flower because you're on an IB program, no matter what mummy says.

The IB exam, the essays, the CAS, and all other requirements are marked by the IBO after the student had already graduated.

Then they aren't really lowering the standards or dumbing anything down, are they? If the students don't get high grades on their diploma - which is the whole point of the IB - then they haven't dumbed down anything. They've just allowed less able students to sit the IB.

You're logic is so skewed. How can IBO sue?

No, my logic isn't skewed. What is lacking here is your ability to communicate. You said that schools in Florida had "dumbed down" the IB, and then when you elaborated it seemed that "dumbed down" to you meant they had let in some students who weren't predicted to get straight 7s. That's not dumbing down, because those students don't get the top grades in the IB (by your own admission).

The IBO wouldn't have grounds to sue in the scenario you described - however, if the state of Florida had somehow managed to inflate their grades, or had set a separate exam that they were calling the "IB Diploma" which was easier to get high grades on, then they would. This is because the IB has built up a brand identity over the years as an exam that is free of government interference and "dumbing down". If Florida had done that, then they would have seriously damaged that brand identity. Not to mention that they would be falsely trading under the name "IB".

By Polly (Polly) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:40 am: Edit

Yes, AP Calculus AB is very easy. If you take Calculus BC, I gess you won't say "it's SO easy."

What if our school doesn't offer IB and only AP?
I'm taking only APs.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 06:38 am: Edit

"Don't kid yourself. There are many schools around the world that only offer the IB diploma for senior students. You aren't a special flower because you're on an IB program, no matter what mummy says."

Yes, "mummy". If a few words of mine can even make you consider insulting me, fine. The truth is that the IB diploma is a 2 year program. And that whatever is taught within the 1st year is not regulated, or carefully enough to be tracked down by IBO. The stuff they teach in the IB program in some Florida schools are "dumbed down". So how did i not communicate myself well enough? IB was meant to be a program where you can have similar educational standards no matter where you go. So if i moved right now to florida, i should be similarly challenged. But i wouldn't be, and thus, i consider this a dumbed down version of IB.

*since when did i say i was "special"? All i said was that the IB program in Florida was dumbed down, note: program. I didn't say exam. THe IB program is about the experience, the teachers, the schools etc... They are interconnected, but still very much separated. If you insist on continuing your insults, FINE, it's not like i'm a totally nice guy either (especially if the other guy's trying to be jack@ss).

IB is more than the tests. The IB exams at the end are only a means of measuring the quality of your education through those schools, as well as your own talent. Both factors have a say in your overall achievement. If i'm not taught the required material in the depth required, or the labs are basically done for me by the teacher (for example, if it's all basically in the notes, so all you do is copy the notes and don't have to think), don't you consider this dumbing down? By dumbing, i mean making it less of an intellectual challenge.

"They've just allowed less able students to sit the IB."

Can be answered with the same response as the above. IB is suppose to be challenging, or atleast as challenging as it is suppose to be. When teachers begin to give you in total only 1 hours worth of homework everyday (which is not very much at all, that's like 10 minutes a course), it just becomes childs play. At this point, what would be the reason for taking IB in the first place? You'll only end up failing the exam anyways.

They inflate the grades and give out easy homework as opposed to the more difficult homework just so students can get higher grades. That's what dumbing down is. What you're refering to is not dumbing down of IB. IB is an overall program, not just the exam. The exam only measures your progress, as does the CAS, labs etc... IB is about the overall experience, if the overall experience is taken away, you might as well just stay home all year and just go and take the test. Since it's not like you're being taught anything.

"This is because the IB has built up a brand identity over the years as an exam that is free of government interference and "dumbing down". If Florida had done that, then they would have seriously damaged that brand identity. Not to mention that they would be falsely trading under the name "IB"."

Once again. IB is not only the exam. I don't know what system you go by, probably the A-level or AP. But IB is more about th experience, that's why it has more than just stupid multiple choice questions for the exams, there's the CAS, the extended essay etc... The tests are prepared to measure your progress, you're not the one who should be slaving over the tests. If you are taught well enough, you shouldn't even have to study. But when the teachers don't do everything possible in their power to challenge you intellectually (atleast to "suggested" standards), and teach you everything you need to know, that is dumbing down. Especially when you end up having to self-teach yourself a quarter of the material which should've been taught in class, or given summer reading (which should be done during the school year).

And since when did "dumb down" mean the same thing as "rip off"? If you don't or can't understand N. American lingo (for lack of better word) that's not my problem. I don't expect myself to fully understand a Brit or Aussie either. So don't blame me for your difficulties in understanding N. American "lingo". You said i had problems with communicating. I can say the exact same thing to you. Ripping someone off could and would lead to the courts. But dumbing down, who can track that?

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 07:19 am: Edit

I'll begin my rebuttal of your argument with an explanation of what dumbing down actually means. Letting less able students sit an exam, or not preparing them as rigorously for that exam (what by your own account the Florida school system does) is not dumbing down. The reason it is not dumbing down, is because those students who aren't as bright and aren't prepared as well don't get the same results on the diploma as those clever kids who have been thoroughly prepared. If, somehow, the dumb kids (the "dumb" part of "dumbing down") were able to get the same grades as those kids who worked hard for their diploma, that would be dumbing down.

Does the fact that some schools in Florida don't push their IB students as hard as you are pushed cheapen your achievement if you get a 7 and they a 3? No. So has it been dumbed down? No. Dumbing down is when the standards required to achieve the top grades are lowered, so the achievements of the genuinely bright students are cheapened.

If you think that letting "dumb" students onto courses which they don't perform well on is "dumbing down" - which is at odds with how educational debates of the last few decades have used the term - then you shouldn't attack people for not understanding your own personal definition of a colloquialism.

IB is more than the tests.

True, IB is a curriculum which prepares you for the tests. If you have been well prepared according to the guidelines of the curriculum then you will do well on the test. If you haven't been, you won't. This is part of the differences in quality of instruction that exist between every single school in the world. What you seem to be saying is that every school should have the resources and the skilled teachers to impart a perfectly standardised "experience" of the IB. Isn't that a little bit naive?

more than just stupid multiple choice questions for the exams,

I suggest you look up a little bit more about the A-level curriculum before you start throwing this kind of accusation around. The A-level consists of 6 'modules' per subject, and each module can either be assessed by an exam (in arts subjects this is usually a single essay written in 2-3 hours) or by an 'extended essay' (called coursework). Typically, an arts student will sit four 2 to 3 hour exams and write two extended essays per A-level subject.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 08:19 am: Edit

"Does the fact that some schools in Florida don't push their IB students as hard as you are pushed cheapen your achievement if you get a 7 and they a 3? No."

What does that have to do with anything?

How does that connect with "So has it been dumbed down?"...

"Dumbing down is when the standards required to achieve the top grades are lowered, so the achievements of the genuinely bright students are cheapened."

And why do ONLY the grades for the exam matter? The inclass grades also matter. And when universities around the world look at your transcripts, they see these marks. Why does an exceptional student have to get a 100% on their test, and have another student, who's significantly more challenged, get nearly the same mark? Isn't this considered dumbing down? The setting of lower standards inside the classroom simply for the attempts of contracting funds?

Once again. IB is more than just the exams. INSIDE the classroom counts much more than the dumb exam at the end.

When a teacher cheapens the level of difficulty for homework and school tests, why isn't that considered dumbing down? They know what IB wants, but just because they know that the students admitted aren't particularly as bright as they are thought to be, they make the tests much easier than what the IB diploma exams would be like. Why isn't this considered dumbing down? Smarts students INSIDE the classroom are being ripped off. They aren't challenged, AND their marks aren't distributed fairly. Why does the class average have to be 90 when it should be 80? Why, when i do a lab, do the teachers have to answer the questions before they are even asked? Why do the teachers have to ask the questions for the students? When the intellectual atmosphere which is attributed to IB is taken away, why isn't it considered dumbing down of the atmosphere? When students get higher grades than they are suppose to, using those high grades to get into Harvard, why isn't that considered dumbing down? Why do the truly gifted students have to self study a quarter of the curriculum when they should've already learned it in class? In junior year even? Why? Isn't it considered dumbing down? Catering to the needs of the challenged, and not the challenger? IB is suppose to be challenging, reserved for those who are ready for it, not a babysitting service designed to suck funds from the gov't. IB is not an exam, it's an education. When the education is taken away, IB's intregrity has truly been violated.

Not all schools are like Oxford or Cambridge where admission is given out on condition. People in north america get accepted way in advanced, even before the IBO truly determine how prepared you really are.

"Isn't that a little bit naive?"

And isn't it pathetic that schools can't stick to standards? I'm not asking every school to have average IB exam marks of 6.2, and if they have a 3.0, atleast have it reflect the student's own abilities, not the teacher's own disregard for their education.

And i already added that i meant the dumbing down of the IB PROGRAM. The program, which is in the classroom. NOT the exam. They are interconnected, but still separated and different.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 08:40 am: Edit

What does that have to do with anything?

The next piece you quote from me explains what it has to do with anything.

And when universities around the world look at your transcripts, they see these marks.

Why do you keep saying "around the world"? Students in the UK, RoI, Continental Europe, Southern Africa and parts of Asia don't even have transcripts for universities to look at. Stop trying to back up your arguments with a sprinkling of false internationalisation.

INSIDE the classroom counts much more than the dumb exam at the end.

The application of a little bit of basic mathematics will show you that this statement is wrong. Internal assessment counts for between 20-30% of the overall eventual mark, with the Higher Level subjects having less of an internal assessment component.

When a teacher cheapens the level of difficulty for homework and school tests, why isn't that considered dumbing down?

It is considered dumbing down, but the fundamental flaw in your argument is that it isn't considered dumbing down for the IB. The importance of the final diploma is lessened by the system of admissions in American universities. The accusation of "dumbing down" you are making is valid, but it isn't valid when accusing them of "dumbing down" the IB. The students are having their in-class grades inflated, but not their IB diploma.

Not all schools are like Oxford or Cambridge where admission is given out on condition.

It's not just Oxbridge that does this. Just from the countries which I have experience of the entire UK, RoI and RSA do this - university places given conditionally.

And isn't it pathetic that schools can't stick to standards?

Of course it is. But the reality is that they don't.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 08:56 am: Edit

"THE IB" once again, is not only about the exam. There's a reason why internal assessments are required. IB itself considers classroom performance. So by cheapening the classroom quality, you ARE cheapening IB. If not to a great degree, atleast to a lesser degree.

"Dumbing down is when the standards required to achieve the top grades are lowered, so the achievements of the genuinely bright students are cheapened."

Lets follow this definition. I don't really care which definition we go by, since whatever we provided so far aren't really from the dictionary.

"It is considered dumbing down, but the fundamental flaw in your argument is that it isn't considered dumbing down for the IB. The importance of the final diploma is lessened by the system of admissions in American universities. The accusation of "dumbing down" you are making is valid, but it isn't valid when accusing them of "dumbing down" the IB."

Once again. You generalize IB as the exam. If you want to specify what you truly mean when you said IB, you would've put IB Exam. And if you did that, we would be talking about different things.

IB is a generalized term including the classroom and exam.

*and can you try to stick to rebutting my points? Why focus on what i do with my sentences? Is it not true that Canada and USA admit students before the IB results come true? It's not like i said "all schools around the world". So, me wording that sentence in that way did no harm, and was not false in any way.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 09:16 am: Edit

Also, IB is an education. Even if classroom performance is only 20-30%, what does this really mean? Classroom performance is considered. The classroom is what IB is all about, the fundamentals, the education, the learning experience. Take it away, and IB is not IB anymore.

When you cheapen the classroom, you are screwing over IB. Even the Exam is designed only to test what went on in the classroom. It's only weighted more because it is the only valid way of tracking your end performance.

So when i said IB was cheapened, my points were valid. You only considered the exam. An IB student shouldn't walk away from IB with only a mark, it's an education. If you don't realize that, that's your problem. But trying to defend a stance which itself is not sturdy is not wise, not because it's not strong, but because you're probably not in IB, and you would not know what an IB education is. You only hear what people tell you about it, or what is written. You hear people praise it, you hear people cuss at it. You only hear about it, not experience it. From your description of A-levels, i assume you took the exams. Studies have shown that, even though A-levels are more indepth than IB is, the overall educational value of IB is still worthit. That's why there are still many schools who prefer IB over A-Levels. It prepares you on the overall level, and IB students actually perform just as well, if not better, than their A-level counterparts (this is either for Cambridge or Oxford, i can't remember). That's why the classroom is so important, it defines what IB is. Students don't just walk away with an evaluation, they walk away with an education. If the educational value is taken away, you might as well take AP or some other program which give very little consideration for classroom performance.

By Arealtexan (Arealtexan) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:15 am: Edit

Actually, the IB is, at its core, an attempt to create a standardised international curriculum and method of assessment that can be taken by children in any country in the world, and that can be accepted as proof of a certain level of study in any part of the world. It was founded initially to help students who attend 'international schools' around the world.

It's true that the IBO has a lot of high-minded rhetoric about students growing and learning and happily strolling through the gardens of the mind in their promotional literature. It is just that - rhetoric. If the IB Diploma was about the "learning experience" then there would be no need for assessments.

You enter into a lot of pedantry about how I should and shouldn't refer to the IB, calling it a program of study that leads to exams at the end. So is the A-level. So is the AP Exam, the Abitur, the Maturita, the Matric, the School Certificate, and countless others. You are relying on a nebulous definition of the IB, couched in fuzzy thinking about it being an "education". How are you going to quantify whether or not a student has had this magical classroom experience? By your own admission you can't, when you state that the exams are "the only valid way of tracking your end performance".

For all your insistence that "the classroom... defines what IB is," it isn't the classroom that defines it. It is the exam at the end, and the diploma you get. As I have said before, if the classroom really did define the IB, then there wouldn't be any assessment. Employers and universities would have no need to differentiate between candidates.

And how is this happy classroom of fun and learning going to be reproduced in classrooms across the world? The fact is that different classes in the same school have different experiences of the classroom, even before you consider the different classroom experiences in other schools, and in other countries. Your definition of the IB is not only intellectually lazy, it is an impossibility!

and can you try to stick to rebutting my points? Why focus on what i do with my sentences?

Your argument consists of the sentences you write - to refute them I have to focus on what you do with your sentences.

Studies have shown that,

I'm going to call you on this. Which studies? Produced by whom? And how do they measure university success? If such a study existed (and it was scientifically valid) then the entire UK system would have abandonded the A-level by now.

That's why there are still many schools who prefer IB over A-Levels.

In the UK? In Singapore? In other countries where the A-level is sat? Don't count on it.

And to answer your question, yes I did take A-levels. How does that invalidate my opinion? You aren't taking A-levels or the AP, and yet you have continually passed comment on "what they are like".

By Dkm (Dkm) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:42 pm: Edit

yo ppl...i live in geneva...where the IB comes from...i live 5 min away from the IBO. i pratically know everyting u need to know about the IB...caz in my skool(international skool of geneva) the whole skool is based on the IB..starts from kindergarten and through 13th grade. i am in my first year of my IB and it is quite a lot of fun..caz u learn a lot of intersting things..however IB is designed for ppl like me who r children of diplomats and if u live in U.S.A i think it would be better if u take the APs and in britain its is better to take the A-levels..u really have to b in an fully international skool to get the full benefit of the IB...my cousins live in florida and also did the IB..from wat they told me...their ib program is nothing like mine. the program is really geared for international skools who move around a lot..like me..i was in india, hong kong, singapore and now in geneva, switzerland.. i was always in IB based skools and so it never really mattered..anyway my skool lets anybody do the IB..becaz that is the only course they offer and if do bad u just do bad...nobody really cares...i guess my skool is a lot diffrent from the skools in america..IB is for ppl u want to travel and go to other countries..if ur gonna stay and go to univesity it is better tat u do the program offered in the country..i would however advise ppl to do the IB caz it is an experience and although u have a lot of homework..in the end u will look back at it and think wat a great time u had..all my friends who did it thought do anyway

By Nealp (Nealp) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 05:54 pm: Edit

okay...IB can't be dumbed down. If the teach gives good grades on shizzitful internal assessments, IB knocks them down and fewer people from the school get their diploma. Its like one of those positive/negative feedback mechanisms from bio

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 06:30 pm: Edit

" if the classroom really did define the IB, then there wouldn't be any assessment."

Wow, i already answered that. There has to be a way of regulating the classroom activities.

"And to answer your question, yes I did take A-levels. How does that invalidate my opinion? You aren't taking A-levels or the AP, and yet you have continually passed comment on "what they are like"."

I only referred to the A-levels. I never specifically said what they were like. The only time i said anything specific was about AP and it's multiple choice exam. Was i wrong when i said that? That was a fact. And my own school offers both AP and IB. So yes, i probably do have a wider knowledge on those programs than you do, not on what they are defined as, but what they are as an education and experience. YOU are the one who are speaking, or trying to represent a program you know very little about, other than what is written on paper, or what is told to you. I'm not the one here, today, arguing with you about what A-Levels are about. I don't expect myself to know much about hte A-levels, but why would you know so much more about the IB than me? Someone who's in it?

"Your definition of the IB is not only intellectually lazy, it is an impossibility!"

IB is an idealistic system. But so is communism and democracy. Nearly every strong system today is a mixture of both systems, whether they themselves believe it or not. USA do interfere with their own market when things turn back, and China do practice some forms of capitalism. Although it is idealistic to wish for a good education, especially when IB is meant to do so (you said so yourself, with the first sentence). Although IB is an education, it uses an exam at the end to measure and keep track of the progress and program they have set up. They change what they go wrong on, on occasion. A good education can't go on without exams, but exams only don't define a good education. Not every school can be exactly the same, but you should atleast keep to the standards. If they say you need an 80 to stay in, then the kids who have less should be kicked out. If they say you should teach them how to do labs on their own, you shouldn't do the lab for them. That's all i ask. I'm not asking for anything impossible. Have you even read what i said? How am i intelletually lazy?

Just wait and see who's lazy...

"Your argument consists of the sentences you write - to refute them I have to focus on what you do with your sentences."

You replied with that after i said that you shouldn't focus on my specific style of wording my sentences. You make it sound like i told you not to read my sentences at all. I said that as a nice way for "stop being a jack@ss" after you said that i was internationalising what i believed when all i said was "around the world". If there ARE schools around the world who take transcripts for admission, then when i said "around the world" it was an appropriate way to state it. You misinterpreted what i said as "all schools around the world" and jumped on ONE of my sentences, which just showed that you had very little more to say or debate. And even, without logic, attacked me. You even brought in my "mummy". When you jumped on one of my sentences without even thinking about it, who was the one who was intellectually lazy?

Why is the HIGHLY achieveable standard of keeping to standards an impossibility? IB schools should stick to the BASIC standards set out for them. Many schools don't even do this. Giving students 10 extra marks just so they can stay in, or just admitting students who don't even have the marks. Why is keeping these students out an impossibility? Are they bacteria, invisible to the human eye? Or atleast if you let them in, you should not lower the educational value to cater those students, but instead keep to standards so the other students aren't held back. Why is that an impossibility?

If keeping to standards is an impossibility, then i suggest to you to test your own food products and prescriptions before you use them. Because keeping to safety standards must also be an impossibility.

Who's mentally lazy?

Anyways, i'm just going to give you the last word. I'm too tired of this, hoping for a good debate, but ending up with an "intellectually lazy" whinner from who knows where. Oh, and since you like to jump on how people sentence their word, and grammar and vocab and spelling, i made a few mistakes just for you. Have fun pikcing htme uot... Someone who decides himself that he knows what an IB education is, when he probably never even sat in on an IB class, obviously wouldn't know much about what goes on, or is encouraged in the class in the first place. FYI, my own school offer both IB and AP. IB is considered the more vigorous. I sat in on some AP classes before i transferred out.

Sticking to standards is kind of hard, but not an impossibility. For if it was, there would be no standards at all, for safety or law.

Nealp,

Eh, the classes themselves are dumbed down. Like i said. If the class is not important at all, then there would be no internal assessment at all. IB would ONLY be an exam, like the AP. That's the difference between IB and AP, IB tries to regulate the quality of it's classes across the world, which is possible, but still kind of hard when you're a non-profit organization. It's ture that the less-intellectual students at the end, end up not getting their diploma, but that's not what i'm complaining about. I was complaining about the QUALIFIED and TALENTED students who end up not getting a diploma, even though they went through the classes, because the classroom standards of education has been lowered to cater to the unqualified students. The qualified fail the IB exams at the end, not because they are stupid, but because of their schools disregard for their education.

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 06:53 pm: Edit

Nealp,

I know we don't have much to complain about. Assuming from what you posted about IB, you are getting atleast the most basic standard of education laid out by IB, or probably even better. But what happens to those who are cheated out of a good education? They give up their time to go into IB, then only finding out, no matter how bright they are, not prepared for the exam and end up getting no recognition (diploma and even worse, sometimes not even certificates) for what they have done. Sometimes, what they went through is not even considered an education. Why be cheated like that, when you could've went to another school with better academics which will TRULY prepare you for university or college?

Those who aren't talented WILL be naturally denied the diploma. But sometimes, when the education is bad enough, even the most worthy can't get it.

It's not just florida, and in florida, it's probably not even that bad (as in, in 10 schools probably only a couple would be like that), but at th schools which are like that. People are being cheated of an education. If IB can't provide you the correct education, then seek out AP, or A-Levels. I'm an IB student, and i stand stand by IB; but even i can admit that not all IB schools are the same, and even some schools don't stick to BASIC standards. This is not just screwing over the underqualified, but it is also cheating the qualified.

*i'm not isolating this problem around IB. I only refer to the IB because i know more about it than any other program. But i have NO doubt that this problem exists in other programs as well. I only bring up this scenario, only to show you that you should seek out more than a program. Sometimes IB is better, sometimes AP, sometimes A-levels. You have to seek out the better one in YOUR area.

By Nealp (Nealp) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 07:21 pm: Edit

true. but if an ib school w/ 100 seniors a year is getting cheated out of their actual diplomas and their educations...and say if they have 0-2 nm finalists /year, word gets around pretty darn quick. ib schools allow you to shadow b4 you choose to attend. moreover, we have the INTERNET. if you really care, you can research the school and its graduates. its not all that hard. yeah, sure, ib programs differ in quality. i had a very, very bad teacher for my sl psychology class. i got a score of 7. sure he was a great guy though. a good education take initiative on the learner's part. i got a 5 on ap psych too. just 5 more hrs of studying. ib doesn't baby feed. you have to rape ib for the real benefit

By Tuannguyen (Tuannguyen) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:53 pm: Edit

No, i'm not talking about that. It's not "bad teaching" per se. I had many terrible teachers before, but they do their job. The teachers were boring as hell, but they made us do notes all by ourselves, made us do notes all ourselves, rejected others opinions (but it was fun arguing), encouraged discussion through controversy etc... We actually got the required amount of information for taking the IB exam at the end. All of the material is covered. Some schools just say "oh, we don't need to know that" simply because most of the underqualified students wouldn't understand, but in turn this, screws over the best students. Independence when studying is a good thing, IB is not suppose to be baby feeding. But when teh teacher goes really slow just to help out 75% of the class, who shouldn't be there in the first place, and thus holding back the smarter kids, it starts to make a big problem. And when time comes to the exam, these students most likely wouldn't even know that they are missing any knowledge, how easy is it now to get that 7 on the IB?

And the Internet can do jack when it comes to specific schools. Most of those IB students don't even know that they are being jacked of a good education, because they never really did sit in on another IB class, they just think it's all the same. They just think that they weren't smart enough, because simply, all the stuff they should've known, it was probably stuff that was obvious, or wasn't covered because it was stuff we should've learned on our own (my cousin was screwed over in Florida, i said that he moved to florida and became one of the top, he actually had higher grades than the valedictorian, but he wasn't there all 4 years of High school, so he didn't count), but how do you know when the teacher don't even give time to even tell you what you're missing out on?

There aren't as many IB preparation books as there are AP. So it's not like they will beable to find out what they should know through self-study or help unless they went to another IB school and asked the teachers there for 2 years worth of notes. Which the student won't do, because he doesn't even know he was missing out in the first place! My cousin, when he first went to Florida, just thought that my school was pushing more than usual, because all IB are supposedly set to a standard, and the reason why my school is harder is probably because my school just likes to push students more. He finally found out that he was wrong.

By Dkm (Dkm) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

my god who cares...y r u aguring and y r posts so long....u get bored after reading the first line.

By Nealp (Nealp) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit

ok, compromise reached:

ib involves indepentent studying. bright students will come out victorious.

some ib schools, i guess in fl, are catering TO THE NEEDS of the DUMB kids. this is bad b/c ib should be catering to the top or at least the above average (b) kids. that way C feels challenged, B is adequately prepared, and A is kinda bored but able to learn it on their own!!!

yeah, end forum.


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