Harvard Chances for EXTREMELY active student, both academica





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Discus: What Are My Chances?: December 2002 Archive: Harvard Chances for EXTREMELY active student, both academica
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Archive through November 07, 2002  70   11/07 04:32am

By Daryl Sams on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 03:50 pm: Edit

In regards to what?

I stopped bothering to reply to the posters on this board who write dithering rebuttals without spending the 3 mniutes needed to read all my posts and actually understand what I'm saying about IQ score/SAT scores. I am also sick of reading posts by people with underdeveloped vocabularies. Correlation does not mean that two things are one and the same; it expresses a degree of similiarity, not any kind of absolute sameness.

Having said that, and realizing that you want a response, I'll try.

I agree that a program of self-education can help one realize ones intellectual capabilities. Your brain is essentiall an organic infinite computer-it doesn't have a fixed capacity, in any real sense. The best analogy is that it has a fixed processor speed-and that is a large part of what an IQ test measures; that is why they are timed so stringently. The SAT is also timed; many people who are "learning disabled," as the misnomer goes, get additonal time, and as a result their score goes up.

I agree that the SAT can be studied for, but nowhere do I claim that it actually is an IQ test, merely that it correlates with intelligence.

I agree that IQ is a flawed measuring stick, but all measuring sticks are inherently flawed. It is useful, though, in determining scholastic aptitude, because that is exactly what it was designed to do. Intelligence is indeed a mixture of genes and conditioning, but both play a large role. Intelligent parents produce intelligent children.

omkar, veenapaddy, read all of my posts were attempting to respond. You're wasting both board space and your time by not bothering to coalesce different posts into one opinion. Give it a shot.

By Barry on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Darl Sams,

If the objective of this long draw out argument was to reconcile our clashing points of view on a subject then I can safely say we have succeeded!

(1) You said: "My point was that the SAT and IQ tests correlated"

(2) You said: "I agree that IQ is a flawed measuring stick"

Conclusion drawn from the above: If IQ tests are, as you said, "flawed"[worthless] then there was little point in you bringing up the issue of correlation, in the first place.

(1) You said: "I agree that a program of self-education can help one realize ones intellectual capabilities."

Conclusion drawn from the above: As you said, the SAT can be studied for.


(1) You said: "Intelligence is indeed a mixture of genes and conditioning"

Conclusion drawn from the above: intelligence is not immutable.

On an unrelated note, your posts indicate that you are a mildly arrogant, intelligent person. Thank you and I hope to see a reply soon.

By damn on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Who cares if SAT has a correlation with intelligence. What the hell do any of you know? This debate has been going on for years by top researchers and you two think you're insights are worthwile. The SAT measures intelligence to an extent and the rest of one's achievement is based on effort. Let's get back to 'what are my chances' now please!

By Daryl Sams on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 05:08 am: Edit

damn,

I don't think it is "you're" place to decide whose insights are worth whose time. Noone here is a "top researcher," but at least the rest of us are not hypocrites. You deride our opinions/ideas but shortly afterwards echo them, from some dais-on-high. The substance of debate on this thread has changed; so sorry that you're no longer the center of it.


Barry, again, you misread qualifying adjectives. Flawed by no means means fatally so. A ruler is flawed in its imprecision; nevertheless, it is of great use as a tool of measurement. Likewise both the SAT and an IQ test; at the same time, however, they both have a tendency to measure a kind of intelligence that often emerges in the form of scholastic aptitude. This is, again, what correlation can mean.


For the next, aspects of the SAT may be studied for; likewise, others are more difficult to study for and thus reflect internalized ability.

As for your twisting of my words, occurring yet a third time when my statement of intelligence being a mixture of genes and conditioning is mal-quoted...conditioning is most often used to connote early childhood development, not early adulthood experiences. I do think intelligence becomes more or less immutable at a certain stage of development.

Finally (stepping back from Daryl Sams) All the opinions about ideas/facts I post on this board I stand behind, but the condescendingly arrogant voice? Just trying it out and seeing how well it conveys contrary opinions. Don't talk this way though. Anyway...

By HarvardStudent on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Look-

Your scores suck. The only people that get into Harvard with less than a 1400 got ALL A's in high school including 5 college courses they took their Jr. and Sr. years. Oh, and they also won an olympic gold medal, etc.

You are not an extremely active student. Your extra-curriculars do not suggest any achievement on a national scale.

Harvard only has 1200 slots. There are more than 1200 high schools. They can not even accept all of the vald. that scored near perfect SATI.

Honestly, you are about 65% of the caliber of student that gets into Harvard. Sorry to be so blunt, but you will be well served by aligning your expectations with your achievement.

In short, you don't have a chance in hell. Sorry.

By Barry on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 07:16 pm: Edit

This is with respect to your statement concerning the development of intelligence ("I do think intelligence becomes more or less immutable at a certain stage of development").

I've done some reading in the period during which I have been away from this board, and, in view of what I now know, I can fairly and confidently refute your argument. Note: The following argument is based on fact and does not, as you would put it, "proceed from my intuitive assumptions".

Many EARLY childhood literature suggests that the first three years of life is the critical period for brain development, It's a time when the young brains learning power is limitless. After this period, as child psychiatrist Felton Earis remarked DECADES AGO, "a kind of irreversibility sets in, there is this shaping process that goes on early, and then at the end of this process, you have essentially designed a brain that probably is not going to change".

Modern day Neuroscientists, Charles Nelson and Floyd bloom among them, see things differently. Contemporary Neuroscientists have now ascertained that the brain retains its ability to reorganize itself, and increase its intellectual capacity, in response to experience throughout life. Although clearly much of brain development occurs through the first years of life, the brain is far from set in its trajectory, even at the completion of adolescence. It may be useful, Daryl, to question the simplistic view that the human brain becomes unbendable and increasingly difficult to modify beyond the first few years of life. By implication, you said that people have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity -- till the age of 6 or so -- to build better brains, a notion which is quite absurd because it runs contrary to modern day Neuroscience.

Arrogant ? Well I tried my very best =)

By Barry on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 07:18 pm: Edit

yawn, where you at?

By Samma on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Yawn

By Barry on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 07:20 pm: Edit

i dont see my messages comming up, i think theres something wrong...

By barry on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 07:21 pm: Edit

wel....oh welll

By firedup17 on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Update: I got my SATII scores back, and got a 660 on Writing, 540 on MathIIC, 490 on French w Listening.

And I was accepted to the University of Tampa last week, if it's worth mentioning.

By dude on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 06:51 pm: Edit

You do realize that your M2C score is 9th percentile, correct?

By Kristy on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 11:25 pm: Edit

No offense,
colleges will take you less seriously for being from FL. I have gone to school both in MA and in FL, and schools in Florida are a joke compared to up north.

By Humbleman on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 03:44 am: Edit

Daryl Sams:
Or should I say "Kant?" You and I are such college admissions addicts that when Princeton Review Board closes down for their checkup, we come here. Well, collegeconfidential, unlike PR, is a very helpful and polite message board. Stop disgracing this board with your bs. (I wouldn't be surprised if you were writing as both Daryl Sams and Firedup, as you've done this kind of thing on PR many times) Best of luck to you with Columbia, but if I were an admissions officer, I wouldn't accept you no matter how smart you are (which is something that I can't deny)

By Daryl Sams on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Humbleman...

I really have no way to prove that I am not who you say I am. Probably you best way to do it is to click on the link to the left and search the messages for all of the posts I've written...all come under the name "Daryl Sams."

If I were an admissions officer, I'd be wowed and dismayed to read my postings. It's just a game I'm playing with writing style, though. I'm definitely not firedup. Nor am I kant. Do a thorough job of researching all of my posts before trying to undermine me. In any case, Columbia? I'm already at a very good college, I didn't even apply there; 18 years of NYC made me want to be someplace a little different.

By Barry on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Employ that new writing style ans respond to this,then, Daryl.

By the way, my NOV verbal score is 790 !=)

This is with respect to your statement concerning the development of intelligence ("I do think intelligence becomes more or less immutable at a certain stage of development").

I've done some reading in the period during which I have been away from this board, and, in view of what I now know, I can fairly and confidently refute your argument. Note: The following argument is based on fact and does not, as you would put it, "proceed from my intuitive assumptions".

Much EARLY childhood literature suggests that the first three years of life is the critical period for brain development, It's a time when the young brains learning power is limitless. After this period, as child psychiatrist Felton Earis remarked DECADES AGO, "a kind of irreversibility sets in, there is this shaping process that goes on early, and then at the end of this process, you have essentially designed a brain that probably is not going to change".

Modern day Neuroscientists, Charles Nelson and Floyd bloom among them, see things differently. Contemporary Neuroscientists have now ascertained that the brain retains its ability to reorganize itself, and increase its intellectual capacity, in response to experience throughout life. Although clearly much of brain development occurs through the first years of life, the brain is far from set in its trajectory, even at the completion of adolescence. It may be useful, Daryl, to question the simplistic view that the human brain becomes unbendable and increasingly difficult to modify beyond the first few years of life. By implication, you said that people have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity -- till the age of 6 or so -- to build better brains, a notion which is quite absurd because it runs contrary to modern day Neuroscience.

Arrogant ? Well I tried my very best =)

By Daryl Sams on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Barry, Barry...you fish so hard for a response here, don't you? This is the second time you've posted that same morass. Anyway, in the absence of actually doing the research necessary to refute what you've written here, I think it can be done, because we're not playing logic here, we're playing semantics.

I Said "more or less" immutable; that does not mean immutable in any absolute sense; it means the preponderance of intellectual development has taken place by a certain age.

YOU state something to the effect of the brain continuing to reorganize itself. This is not something which I've directly or indirectly contradicted. You yourself give me the line with which to undercut your argument: "Although clearly much of brain development occurs through the first years of life, the brain is far from set in its trajectory, even at the completion of adolescence. "

This is similiar to what I wrote repeatedly. "Much" and "far," though? You simply can't use adjectives of extent like that in the same sentence; they by implication contradict each other (and if not precisely contradict, at least create such an obfuscatory overall argument as to mean very little to nothing).

You finally hit the right stroke on the verbal score (although not an 800; come on now, nearly there!).

By Richard from FL on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Firedup, do you go to Tampa Jefferson? I go to PHS. All you really need to do is to get those scores up. BTW I have a 5.22 and am not in the top decile in the same system as you, goddamn my school.

By firedup17 on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 06:14 pm: Edit

yes i go to jefferson.

and im taking the jan sat to have a last chance to make it go up, i dont really care for making up the sat ii scores since there's no time. I'm also taking the ACT in Dec.

About the gpa, yea its true, goddamn it lol. my school's valedictorian has a 5.96, the salutatorian has a 5.47, the 3rd place has 5.00, and me (# 4), I have a 4.5. Also, I've noticed before that a lot of PHS people go to private colleges outside of Florida, why?

-firedup17

By Richard from FL on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Well, most kids parents can afford to send them off to top schools. And most kids are pressured into applying to top schools and studying their asses off to get that many more points on the SAT. We have 7 kids applying to Harvard this year. I am applying to Duke and Rice, but i probably wont get in (low UW gpa and rank) even though I have a 1520. But I will most likely end up at UF or at Tulane on scholarship. Do you know Eli S from Tampa Plant? He's my good friend and is the tennis captain. I swim, just got back from FHSAA this weekend.

By firedup17 on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 11:36 pm: Edit

What's your uw gpa?

No I don't know the phs tennis captain. I'm my school's tennis team captain but its official this year because Jefferson has never had a team before until last year when my and my friend showed interest, and we will have a team this year. I hear Plant has a very good tennis program.

And I'm the only person at JHS to apply to Harvard.

And how did you know I was from JHS.

*go dragons* hehehe...

-firedup17

By Richard from FL on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 06:19 am: Edit

I had a hunch based on your GPA System (i think its unique to hillsborough county) and because you said you were a nominee for the JHS homecoming court. My UW is 3.50 and my academic (what they see) is 3.43 with no C's. I will have taken 11 AP tests by the time I graduate (10 classes) I think you could try for H, but be cautious, a school will judge you based on your academic record compared to your peers, but your testing is what lets adcoms know that you education is comparable to other schools. My advice, do RD for all your schools. Take the ACT, take your SAT 1 again.

By . on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 02:34 pm: Edit

bump

By green destiny on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 05:38 pm: Edit

You can't be serious, read some of the other posters here.
There's this guy mrboya, he's some where on the board, I think that's his name check out his stats.
like 1580 sat, almost all 800s on sat IIs like all 5 s like 8 ap classes and like a page of EC.

and he's wondering if he can get into harvard.
I just had my interview with rice university today and guess what the guy told me? He told me that if Harvard wanted, it can probably fill 1-2 classes with people that has perfect 1600s on their SAT. I am sure not everybody with 1600s are nerds or geeks who never steps out of the house.

I myself is an average student with 1410 on SAT, sat II scores are 740 on math IIC and biology and 660 on writing. Personally I think I will have about as much chance of getting into harvard as I can squeeze blood out of a rock.

Also just because you are one of the best student in YOUR high school doesn't mean anything. The whole entire state of florida can be in smokes and ashes before Harvard gives a darn.

Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's the truth

By Joe Peanuts on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Yes i agree with many of the negative posts here. It really doesn't matter whether you're in 15 clubs and treasurer of all of them (all you really do is count money anyway right?). It's much harder in my opinion to take the hardest classes/ get str8 A's (maybe some b's)/ and get a good sat score than be in 15 clubs. To be in a club/hold psition pretty much means "be at the once a month meeting" and "ask the teacher if you can hold some sort of 'position.'" Getting good grades requires every minute of your academic life (at least 3 out of 4 seasons of the year.)

I don't deny the difficlty of your schedule. Im sure you run around the school attending meetings and what not, but that is little work compared to doing well academically.

Kudos on taking such hard classes. But to be "elite" you have to do well in them too. I'm assuming Harvard style grades do not include C's in ANY classes. Don't expect sympathy for such a hard schedule because none of it is required; your academics come first. It was your decision to stack on activities. And if you can't handle your job/ap's/clubs than quit some of them, and raise the 1160 for PETE's sake.

I'm pretty sure no school will blindly accept a student based on the difficulty of his extracurricular life.

By Mamma on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 05:25 pm: Edit

I have gone to school both in MA and in FL, and schools in Florida are a joke compared to up north.

By jeliot@harvard.edu on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 06:20 pm: Edit

hahaha firedup17 kills me, so does this ridiculous Hillsborough county GPA system in which this average student with 30% B's, and some C's has a GPA over 5.0. Your SATI & SAT II's are extremely low and come on, lets be serious, you didnt spend "25+ hours" counting money for the National Honors Society. Plus your from FL

By MUCHBETTERTHAN YOU on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 07:02 pm: Edit

If he gets in and I don't...I'm jumping off the nearest bridge...I personally don't expect to make it but if the OP does...that's just not fair.

By Richard from FL on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Jeliot, come on, it's not because he goes to a Hillsborough County School, its because he goes to Jefferson, the worst Hillsborough County School. I go to HB Plant, where I have 0 C's and a 5.22 (which makes me a whopping 47th) and I have a 3790. Just because our GPA's go above 6 doesn't mean we have grade inflation. Especially since our school report shows how we rank grades. (i.e a 4.0 on some systems is better than a 5.7 in SDHC) I strongly doubt you are qualifed for Harvard given the idiocy of your last remark.

By firedup17 on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Thanks for the backup Richard. And JHS is the worst school in HC? I had never realized that, but given that 90% of the seniors got 1100 SAT or less, and I'm the only one that took the SATII. 90% of 220 students....

-firedup17

"Well if you jump off the bridge, you might not die because your head is too thick."

By firedup17 on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Scratch that, it was 95%.

-firedup17

By david on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:53 am: Edit

i think you should get that 1160 up...first time i took the sat i got 1260 freshman year...studied and took it again junior year got a 1450.

By jeeeeeez on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 07:06 am: Edit

SHEESH SOME OF U GUYS......get a life....or just go to some debating competition...i swear u guys would win!!!!!!!!!

By Bumper on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 06:26 pm: Edit

B u m p

By Heartwork (Heartwork) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 06:01 pm: Edit

<Post deleted for language and abusiveness. Poster banned. -- Moderator Obiwan>

By Greghornphs (Greghornphs) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:37 am: Edit

<Spammed message deleted. Moderator thinking about sending poster someplace with no Internet connection within 500 miles. --Moderator Obiwan>


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