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Sybbie-

We went up to Dartmouth today. This was our third time visiting the campus. My D loves it so much that she is going forward with applying there ED. How is your daughter liking it? It was alumni weekend up there so there was an energy about the place. It's beautiful- I can see what my D loves about it. I have been trying to convince her to apply there RD to keep her options open,but today I could honestly see her there. Any thoughts?

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Hi Burllinz,

I am glad that your daughter had a good time. It was love at first sight for my daughter even though she was not committed enough to apply ED.She applied RD, but once she went for Dimensions (for admitted students) she called home to say this is the place.

My daughter is still having a wonderful time, loving it and says that she KNOWS that Dartmouth is the place for her. She is amazed by how nice people are here, the way they smile and just talk to me out of the blue introducing themselves and trying to get to know her. She has a great group of friends, she lives in East Wheelock, loves her roomates and the people on her floor. From what I see is that there is a sense of cohesiveness amongst the 08s (maybe it a result of those 5 days in the woods). My daughter is not a drinker and does not feel the pressure to drink on campus. In fact she is a "slow lane kid" who has found herself some "slow lane friends".

The 12 day orientation (which I thought was long, gave them the opportunity to:

Take placement test
Speak with professors from different departments
This year they instituted peer counseling
Meet with advisors as a group (by D living in East wheelock they had their own advising sesson)
Meet with advisors indivually in order to have their schedules approved.

It seems that there is a lot of support there for the students.


On the classroom front:

Because they operate on the quarter system they take 3 classes per quarter. This quarter she is taking:

Math 3 (link to syllabus)
http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~m3f04/

Calculus -she opted not to use her AP Calc BC credit and says she is glad she made the choice. Upon reading the syllabus she said that class began on Wednesday and tutorials started on thursday. She said the class is very fast paced while Prof. Williams is very smart but it does not come through in the lectures. The hope work is submitted via Webwork and cannot be submitted after the next class date. While the class meets on M/W/F tutorials (which are run by grad students) meet on tues, thurs, & I think sunday at 7 p.m. so if you have a homework question or if there is something you don't understand, you can get help. She is taking this course with her roomate which is helpful as their class meets at 8:45.

BIO 2 Human Biology with Dr. Witters (who is also the Pre-med faculty advisor) She absolutely loves this class. It is big, about 150 students but he keeps the lectures so engaging and is so organized.
The course use the Blackboard program to organize course materials, and are generally accessible only to students already enrolled in them. In black board are the lecture notes, diagrams, sample quizzes and test. They did not have to purchase a book because everything for quizzes and exams are in his lectures.

ClST 14-Greek History: Archaic and Classical
Greece. There are about 25 students and she feels that Christensen is a great lecturer and keeps the discussion intering. He assigns about 100 pages of reading per night, gives questions, in additional to them having to write a brief critical analysis and gives a quiz in the next class. She says that most of her time is spent doing his work. She feels that she has never done so much work but it is work that she loves.


Omadre & Casey, I hope that you check in and let us know how it is going for your kids at Dartmouth.

By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Well, as usual, Sybbie, you have the "facts." My S is not nearly as communicative, so I can't say as much. I know his Chem 10 course (Honors Chemistry for freshmen only based on placement test score) is a "character builder," as he describes it. He does like this course quite a bit, but it is very difficult. The first lab took him 5 1/2 hours to complete, and he finished first (probably not good.) He marvels at how smart the other students are, and how good the professor is. One of the "dads" from the "dad cabal" who posts on CC said that it was easier to "coast" at Dartmouth than at some other places. I would not know, but with S's athletic responsibilities and his courses, there is no coasting so far that I can see.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:27 am: Edit

Chem, Physics, Bio, and Math are not "coasting" subjects.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 06:55 am: Edit

Hi Casey,

Daughter likes to get her vent off, which I told her feel free to call at any time when she needs to vent, which sometimes she takes literally meaning a call at 1:30 a.m because was having writers block.

I think that she could say this semester is character building. She has friends in the Chem 10 and told me about the course so I feel your son's pain. She is also so impressed by how smart her classmates are but they also make themselves available to you.

I am really not hearing about a lot of coasting going on. D thought that the Greek History class was going to be her "coasting" course, but but was she wrong. It seems as if they just got started but she is having exams in all 3 of her classes next week (she just told me this last night after I posted). I know that she said one of her exams is in the evening which I was suprised that it did not happen during the class period.

As you know E. Wheelock is considered one of the "quiet dorms" so the drinking is pretty much nil. She says she can alwayas find someone in the study lounge.

Most of her core group of friends are also going through the pre-med track or prospective engineering majors (she says that misery likes company). Next term she will be taking Chem 5 and Bio 14 together, so I guess sleep will be over rated.

Even with the math class, she said a large number of students show up to the tutorials because of the huge number of problem sets given for home work. There are approximately 8 people on her floor alone who are in the math class so they all trek over together.

Our kids are definitely working hard, but it is good to know that they like their classes vs. working hard and being miserable in class.

Just think, they come home for Thanksgiving and go back for finals.

By Bluejay (Bluejay) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 07:38 am: Edit

Sybbie,
Is your daughter the one who was checking out the crew team? Any updates on that?

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 10:07 am: Edit

She gave it up because of practice is 2 to 3 hours per day 6 days a week.

On M/W/F she would finsh class at 2 go to her room change, do a little readign go to practice from 3:30 to 5:30 come home shower, go to tutorial at 7, come home and finish the rest of home work and wasn't getting to bed until 2 am. Her History / Bio professors holds class during their X hours on tuesday (the history professor uses his every week) adds new work, so she now has 2 assignments due the following day to his class.

She was very upset over making the decision to give up crew, but she felt that she had no time to herself, and since she is planning on doing the Pre-med courses, she did not want to sacrifice her grades. She said she would think aboutr doing it once things got settled. I told her that it was very mature on her part to realize that she wasn't balancing it all out and was willing to give up something before she got worn out.

I have a new repect for those like Csasey's son who are balancing the course work with their sports commitment.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit

Sybbie, you are right...it is a huge commitment and my daughter is doing such a one now. Your daughter was wise to assess what she felt was doable for her or not.

Susan

By Jrpar (Jrpar) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 10:55 am: Edit

I have a friend whose child is being recruited by Dartmouth to play a sport. The parents are concerned about their child's ability to keep up with the pack at Dartmouth: the child's stats are below Dartmouth norms. This child would not be taking math/science courses - how would the workload be?

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

Child will probably take at least one math / science as part of the distribution requirement.

Each student must take and pass ten courses, as follows:

one in the Arts;

one in Literature;

one in Philosophical or Historical Analysis or Religion;

one in International or Comparative Study;

two in Social Analysis;

one in Quantitative and Deductive Sciences;

two in the Natural Sciences;

one in Technology or Applied Science.

The following is required by all students:

English: English 5 or English 2-3; or a proficiency equivalent to that achieved by English 5. Students must complete the requirement by the end of the second term of the first year. They can be exempted from this with based on SAT scores and a 5 on the AP Lit or Lang. exam. If they are exempted then they must take 1st year seminar.

B. First-Year Seminar: One seminar chosen from an approved list which changes each term. These semi-nars, which have English 5 (or 2-3) as prerequisite, are designed both to further the student’s proficiency in writing and to provide an opportunity for participation in small group study and discussions with an instructor on a subject of mutual interest. This requirement must be completed during the first year. A First-Year Seminar may satisfy a distributive or world culture requirement if so indicated in the seminar book.

C. Language: Foreign language courses numbered 1, 2, and 3; or proficiency equivalent to three terms of study in one foreign language at the college level, or fluency in some language other than English. A student must demonstrate the abil-ity (1) to read with understanding representative texts in a foreign language; and in the case of a modern foreign language, (2) to understand and use the spoken lan-guage in a variety of situations. Every student will take qualifying tests upon entrance. If the student passes these examinations, he or she will have fulfilled the Foreign Language Requirement.

Unless exempted, as above, a student must normally complete the requirement before the end of the seventh term, either in a language offered for admission or in another language begun at Dartmouth. There are two options: (1) study on the Dartmouth campus in any of the languages offered, or (2) participation in one of Dartmouth’s Language Study Abroad (D.L.S.A.) programs offered in several of these languages

World Culture Requirement. Each student must take and pass one course in each of three areas: European, North American, and Non-Western.


I think it is going to depend on what they intend to take. I am really not in a position to say that some majors may be easier than others. In addition, what may be hard for my child may be easy for this student (one size does not fit all). D has a friend who is an engineering major who switched one of his math classes because he felt it was a little over his head.

As a parent, I know that I can't hold her hand through the process, all I could do is listen to her reason for wanting or needing to do something and to just hope that she isn't running away from a challenge. Hopefully she will do what is best for her. Right now she has 3 classes, each with a heavy work load (lots of reading in the bio also, but she expected that). She has told me that she has friends whose entire course loads are not as heavy as the course load she has for this 1 history class, but hey its only their first term and their day may be coming.

As you have read, Casey's so was a recruited athlete in Baseball is taking honors Chem (after I believe getting a 5 in AP chem ) and it is a lot of work i don't know his prospective major is so I could not tell you if this is just the beginning.

I think no matter what the student majors in there is going to be a lot of reading and writing going on because it is just the norm at college. I know tha in D's history class they are reading 3 books and he gives out additional reading in class. As I stated earlier there is a written critical analyis due with each class. Just Friday she had a short paper due based on a 250 page reading that he gave out on Wednesday. (yep, she was home plugging at it). But from what she has found out from other students is that this particular professor assigns a lot of work.

While sports are important and are a major time commitment, no coach is going to allow you to stay on a team at the risk of flunking out. In that respect there is a very good support system at Dartmouth, the professors are and do make themselves available. It is still a 2 way street but most of the accountabilty and responsbility falls on the student.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:02 pm: Edit

This is a big adjust for all of our kids who are just starting freshman year as they come to the realiziation that this is not H.S. many of them now see that they are now 'running with the big dogs" and can't do the things that they used to. In the beginning d balked a little about not having a TV, now she says she doesn't have time to watch it if she had one.

I also think that D is having a time management thing, and once she works it out, everything will be ok. Some if it is also just growing pains.

Don't let what I say deter you, because in spite of it all she feels that she made the right choice and is very happy with that choice.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Sybbie, do you think the time compression of the quarter system at Dartmouth has anything to do with it? They've been on quarters for years, I'd think they would have worked it out by now.
I worry about this with my daughter and any of the selective schools she's considering.
She does her homework (much less of a procrastinator than I am or was) very diligently, but is not much of a studier ?studyer?. She's never settled for a B, but sees no reason to work for a 98 when she can make a 95. She's never hit the wall. Actually, I think that this is mentally, spiritually and emotionally a healthy attitude, but I wonder how she will rise to the challenge when "lick and a promise" studying doesn't earn an A.

My H and I were talking about this - we were both science majors who longed to be humanities majors. The type of studying you do in math and science classes (except biology) is so different from the writing/reading intensive work of most humanities classes, it was hard to switch mental gears to that different method of learning, and to budget time wisely because the time is used differently. I think freshmen have a learning curve with that as well.

By Ohmadre (Ohmadre) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Hi. Just saw this post. Sybbie's first entry pretty much described exactly the experience my daughter is having/had. She fell in love at once during her Junior summer visit, doubted her strong reaction and worried about what financial package might be offered, so applied RD. She had overnights at the three schools she had narrowed her choice to in the end, and as soon as she stepped on campus again (not the Dimensions weekend by the way, which means the extra effort wasn't being made to persuade) she fell in love again. That overnight clinched it.

She is in an entirely different set of dorms than Sybbie's daughter but has the identitical reaction - she loves her roommate and all of her dormmates. She loves the friendliness of everyone.

I have heard so many superlatives out of her (about so many different things) since she returned from her outing club trip that I wish I had been keeping track. The 12 day orientation was a bit long (although fun, and bonding) and she is happy to be finally taking classes, attending incredible outside lectures, pursuing outside interests (music ensembles, political groups, canoe club).

She really loves it - I get hurried emails that say that in so many words. But they are hurried - she doesn't have too much spare time for conversations.

I think that, because she is taking two intro courses, its not as difficult as Chem 10. But nor is she coasting - she is definitely up late into the night for the sheer volume of reading. Only one of her courses has problem sets and she is not taking a lab course this term. I did once hear "I can't do all this!" 10 weeks are very few to cover an entire course, even though they only take three courses.


As an aside, I read in an online parent's newletter that very likely no students will be able to exempt English 5 in the future. I am not sure when they will institute that, but there seems to be committment is to having every freshman take first and expository writing class (English 2/3 or 5) and only after that the freshman seminar.

Burllinz - Dartmouth is distinct in many ways, and it seems that so many of its students had your daughter's reaction. If it does appeal, it appeals strongly. My daughter fought her own attraction to it in the interest of making the best choice and because it did not meet certain of her original criteria, but once I saw the strength of her response to Dartmouth, I was silently routing for it to win. I was not in favor of her applying anywhere ED, again, mainly because of financial concerns (which in her case were well as well met as anywhere, by the way) and partially because I thought that what she was looking for in a school might change a little from autumn to spring. That being said, her gut reaction at the beginning of the process has never changed, so, if your daughter has honestly evaluated a number of schools and feels this strongly right now, maybe ED is a sound move for her. I am personally delighted that the fit seems so right and that what seemed to be upon visiting has, so far, evolved to be in reality. Best of luck to your daughter with all her decision-making.

By Ohmadre (Ohmadre) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:46 pm: Edit

"I also think that D is having a time management thing, and once she works it out, everything will be ok. Some if it is also just growing pains.

Don't let what I say deter you, because in spite of it all she feels that she made the right choice and is very happy with that choice. "

Ditto. No more concern about tv. But still, there are other distractions (friends and outside interests). Time management needs to be more than a concept. But I see signs of development. And, despite the harried times, my daughter also remains very happy.


Cangel - I do think the compression of courses is an issue, but they do have only three courses to concentrate on. I had the same system in college and I recall the pace. You are right that the nature of the workload in humanities courses vs. hard science/math are distinct - but I think equally time consuming. I think you rightly conclude that there is a freshman learning curve. I think at this point in their brief college experience, freshman are just starting to embrace that which they intellectually know - that they have to change some of their study habits and earnestly re-evaluate how they manage their time. I am not sure, but it seems to me that when most of your fellow students are in that same boat, you just rise to demands along with everyone else, and that likely your daughter will ramp it up by whatever degree is required.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Cangel,

They cover a lot of work over the course of 10 weeks. D did have to shift gears once she got here. Because she was the type of kid who did not have to break a real sweat to get good grades. What gets her over is that she is a great writer and easily retains a lot of informaiton. Yes, there is a bit of a culture shock because she is now seeing her study habits change. All in fairness they are just finishing up week 3.

Think of it as the peace corps, the toughest job they'll ever love and the student do love being at Dartmouth.

Ohmadre, I am glad that everything is working out for your daughter. Sometimes I think that they are pod people because through it all they find happiness being there and won't have it any other way. I just read the article about the writing program and I can understand the school wanting to have a core compentency in writing. I don't get e-mail just snippets of phone calls.

Regarding D's mini crashing into the wall:

She called about 12:20 thursday night having a brain freeze, crying because she just couldn't seem to get the paper started. I told her to go to bed and get some sleep because she had been caught up in this way too long and things would look different in the morning (as I was on the phone with her some one popped into her room and she was telling them 'You have to go home because my mom is on phone and just told me to go to bed and get some sleep").

She missed her math class friday morning which she didn't say anything about until last night(her room mate and some of her friends on the floor got her up to speed) took a deep breath and when she least expected it , about 1:30 something kicked in and she was able to write. She called again about 3:30 saying that she was not finished, and it wasn't going ot be ready by 4. I told her again, clam down, take what you have written to the professor, ask if you can get another hour. If he says no, take the ding for a late paper. She went , spoke to him and he gave her the hour with out penalty. When she called saturday (after getting some much needed sleep), she was happy as a lark and you would have never thought she lived through the previous 24 hours.


No matter what happens, the kids remember the bigger picture as to why they chose to come, and everything passes

By Burllinz (Burllinz) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Thanks everyone! My D was very interested in your responses. The support on this site has been invaluable. I appreciate how willing everyone is to share their experience with others.
We are still at the point of hoping to get accepted. Is there anything you can point to that helped your kids get accepted? What do you think is most important to Dartmouth? Thanks again for all your help.

By Ohmadre (Ohmadre) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Burlinz -

I would say its the whole package that matters, really. I searched previous posts and found that your daughter has the stats, quite obviously. I think that Dartmouth places a lot of importance on doing well in challenging courses, as evidenced by class rank among other things - perhaps even more than test scores. Of course your daughter has both. So to round out the package, its important that something of who she is really shines through the essay. That (as they no doubt told you at an admissions session), it show them, and does not simply tell them, something new about her that is not obviously apparent from the transcript and other parts of the application. And the peer recommendation should also, perhaps by anecdote, add something new to the picture. So, again, I wish her luck.

Sybbie - as to that wall - I guess it is a very familiar one. I think friends in other schools that started so much earlier probably hit it already as well. Lets hope they come away from it with a better ability (determination) to avoid the wall in the first place - (possibly coming back to the whole time-management thing?) I am glad they bounce back so easily!