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Okay, I'm really confused on how much being a urm (african-american) helps (i'm a junior), my stats are basically like everyone else's (3.87gpa uw, avg. ECs, old sat-1400, sophomore year) and i hear how having a 3.2uw gpa for blacks can get you into really great schools, and though it doesn't apply to me, what are the benefits of being a recruited athlete? Is it almost like you're automatically in? Sorry if this subject has been up before, but I want it answered for that will determine if i'll go for top schools or just stick in state

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:23 pm: Edit

First, those are great stats for any student. You should be thrilled. I'm thrilled for you!

Second, a nationally/internationally recognized athlete has admission advantages from the bottom tier to the Ivy League. I know an athlete who is currently being recruited by Stanford. They want her SAT scores before they ink a deal, but I don't imagine she will score anywhere near a 1400.

However, the reality of being an college athlete is hard, hard, hard. There is no reason to envy that life.

Third, not sure what you mean by "top school". Can you clarify?

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

With 1400 SAT and 3.87 GPA in your sophomore year, you stand a very good chance of getting in on your own steam, anyway. But I'll try to answer in a very general way, but quoting from a Stanford adcom's response to a question about legacy. She said: Legacy won't get you to the fence [dividing admits from non-admits]; it won't even get you closer to the fence. But if you happen to sit on the fence, it will tip you over. Using the same analogy, I would say that being a URM or a recruited athlete or a star artist will get you closer to the fence. Depending on your profile (stats, essay, geographical location) and the needs of the college, it may even get you over the fence.
The long and the short is that you should aim for the best, which means the best for you (in state can be excellent, too).

By Celebrian23 (Celebrian23) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:30 pm: Edit

I would never envy a college athlete, and by top schools, i mean at/near top 25 level, specifically unc-ch and columbia, the thing is, I only go to an average public school, and though I'm in the top 10%, i'm not in the top 5%, I'll be starting college visits soon, and I don't want to get my hopes up!

By Celebrian23 (Celebrian23) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Oh yes, and to clarify, I will be taking both the new sat and act (ohio state schools lean towards the act, out of state seems to like the sat, so that's why i'm taking both)

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:35 pm: Edit

That's a great pearl, Marite--but I don't hink it's true for athletes. I know too many that get full rides BEFORE the EA apps are due--at Harvard, Stanford etc. They are at the fence before the others even know where the bloody fence is!

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Celebrian, if you are looking for good financial packages, you might want to research some of the old threads--and align your 'hopes' accordingly.

The top 25 schools have varying degrees of generosity--a fact I've learned on CC.

By Celebrian23 (Celebrian23) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Well my parents have told me, I'll apply to state schools that are generous, and apply to reaches, that maybe aren't so generous, they'll send me anywhere I want to go, but my dad especially loves unc, so if i was accepted, he would be willing to pay, I'm trying to be academically realistic at this point, and my parents and I decided the time to be financially realistic is after i apply to a range of schools

By Coureur (Coureur) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 08:22 pm: Edit

>>I know too many that get full rides BEFORE the EA apps are due--at Harvard, Stanford etc.<<

At Stanford perhaps, but not at Harvard. None of the Ivy League schools offer any athletic scholarships, and Harvard doesn't offer any merit scholarshps. If an athlete gets a full-ride from Harvard it's need-based financial aid.

Now whether being a talented football player makes someone look a little "needier" in Harvard's eyes, I don't know, but I'd like to think not.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:53 pm: Edit

Sorry, but I know a recruited athlete who was accepted at Harvard in October. (not this year, but not long ago).

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Cheers,
You may know a recruited athlete who lied about being accepted at Harvard in Oct. What the person said is impossible. There would be all sorts of recruiting violations, too. Harvard just doesn't operate like that.

Celebrian,
Your gpa and soph SAT are not "average." They are extremely high regardless of race.

You don't need to be in the top 5% of a high school to go to a top 25 school.

When it comes to top schools, particularly the top dozen or so, no one is automatically in. Your chances, however, of getting into a top school appear to be better than those of most applicants.

By John_Updike (John_Updike) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Harvard has a relatively poor football team, so many athletes, even at the regional level, can get in. My friend is getting recruited from Harvard and, as much as I admire his talent, the farthest he has made it into football competition is All Districts. Another one of my friends got into Yale and he did not even make All Districts. Both are ranked at the lower half of the 20% mark, and their SAT scores are 1300 and 1170 respectively.

Now, I understand that Stanford is extremely competitive in terms of football (look at their team! Ranked highly nationally among 5A). So, they might be an exception. But, for most top Ivy League schools (Harvard is 2A and Princeton is, I think, 1A), football is underrepresented enough to give you a significant advantage.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:11 pm: Edit

>>Sorry, but I know a recruited athlete who was accepted at Harvard in October<<

I'm not questioning when the Harvard athlete was accepted. I don't know enough about their recruitment of athletes to say for sure one way or the other. What I was pointing out is that the athlete did not get a full-ride athletic scholarship or any other athletic scholarship from Harvard, since they don't give any.

In a reform measure, the Ivy League abolished athletic scholarships back in the 1940s. And they've stuck to it too, which is why they are not competitive with other Div. 1 conferences in nearly all sports (rowing is one exception that comes to mind).

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:12 pm: Edit

NSM:

Could it be possible that a coach made a pitch to the applicant and the applicant subsequently was admitted? Since athletes tend to apply ED/EA, I suspect communications between the coach and the prospective applicant would take place in October. However, an offer of admission would only be made at the same time as to everybody else, i.e., in December.
I doubt that a coach could categorically commit to an athlete, and conversely, an applicant would be unwise to read too much into the recruiting noises a coach makes.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Yes, it's possible that a coach talked to an athlete in Oct. It is, though, impossible that the athlete was admitted then. Admissions is really strict about things like that and also would want to make sure to avoid NCAA violations.

I can imagine, however, things becoming distorted through the rumor mill or even that the applicant misperceived the initial approach.

By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:56 am: Edit

"Yes, it's possible that a coach talked to an athlete in Oct. It is, though, impossible that the athlete was admitted then. Admissions is really strict about things like that and also would want to make sure to avoid NCAA violations."

NSM et alia: The Ivy League schools issue Likely Letters (you can read about how they work for D-1 athletes on another recent CC thread)to prospective student-athletes who are considering non-Ivy League D-1 options. For baseball and some other sports, the D-1 signing period is November of the senior year. In order for the Ivy League candidate to forgo signing a D-1 scholarship with a school in November, the Ivy League school, including Harvard, will issue a Likey Letter to the athlete in October or November,declaring to the effect that that student- athlete is highly likely to be admitted in the December Early Admissions period; in effect, you can count on a letter of admissions. I heard from the Harvard baseball coach specifically on this point. My S was a very attractive candidate because of GPA and test scores that would have been more than competitive at any Ivy League school, notwithstanding the baseball hook.

As most know, my own S was issued such a Likely Letter from an Ivy School after submitting his complete application to the Assistant Dean of Admissions in October, because he had to verbally commit/decline one way or another to several other D-1 coaches, who were pressuring him for commitments in OCTOBER.

As far as the financial aid package goes for the student-athlete--I don't believe they learn any sooner than the typical ED candidate, and I can't say how the "package" might be affected because the candidate is a sought after athlete, because we did not request any financial aid.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:03 am: Edit

Thanks for the clarification Casey. I was beginning to think I'd imagined it because never for one second did I think these kids--and their parents and GCs btw--LIED ???!!! Whoa Northstarmom!!

Also, please note that I only told Celebrian that nationally/internatioanlly recognized athletes have admissions advantages--I didn't say that all the schools gave full rides. But some do.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:24 am: Edit

The NCAA regulates the number of scholarships that teams are allowed to give, and it usually isn't enough for each person on the team to get a full ride. Often the amount is quite small (such as a few thousand dollars, or books, etc.)(Some, like my S a recruited walkon, get none). Different sports have different numbers of scholarships permitted. E.g., there are more for football per school than there are for other sports.

But I don't think that only nationally recognized athletes get an admissions advantage. There are actually lots of D1 and D2 schools in the country, with lots of sports per school. Generally you have to be quite good to be recruited and thus have an admissions advantage, but you do not need to nationally recognized--except at Stanford, where they really do go after the very top-notch athletes. They don't have to score 1400s, but they do have to score pretty high. And, believe it or not, there are athletes on all of the teams at Stanford that have scores in the 1500-1600 range AND are nationally ranked athletes!

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

>>NSM et alia: The Ivy League schools issue Likely Letters (you can read about how they work for D-1 athletes on another recent CC thread)to prospective student-athletes who are considering non-Ivy League D-1 options. For baseball and some other sports, the D-1 signing period is November of the senior year. In order for the Ivy League candidate to forgo signing a D-1 scholarship with a school in November, the Ivy League school, including Harvard, will issue a Likey Letter to the athlete in October or November,declaring to the effect that that student- athlete is highly likely to be admitted in the December Early Admissions period; in effect, you can count on a letter of admissions. I heard from the Harvard baseball coach specifically on this point. My S was a very attractive candidate because of GPA and test scores that would have been more than competitive at any Ivy League school, notwithstanding the baseball hook. >>

Thanks for the concrete example, Casey.

Two comments:
How binding on the college is a likely letter?
2. It's important to note here that Casey's S had the scores and GPA that would have gotten him into an IVY without the baseball hook. Baseball, in other words, was not a substitute for academic excellence.

By Alwaysamom (Alwaysamom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:15 am: Edit

Here to confirm what caseyatthebat and cheers have already said about Ivys and athletes. My Ds best friend was recruited by Princeton in her junior year for tennis. Stanford was also 'after' her. She chose Princeton and knew in October of her senior year because she'd received one of these 'likely' letters which was obviously a guaranteed admission. While the Ivys say that they don't give athletic scholarships, they obviously cloak them in supposed need-based aid, for this friend got a full ride at Princeton. I would also tell kids not to envy the recruited athlete. They work incredibly hard, especially the ones at the Ivys, and carry a full academic load with very few exceptions made in their workload, assignments, exams, etc.

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

Excerpt for May 13 article of the Darmouth.. regarding Admissions

http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004051301040&sheadline=admissions&sauthor=&stext=

40 percent of applicants are given some sort of extra attention -- minorities, legacies or athletes. This year, 24 percent of applicants were students of color, 3 percent legacies, and roughly 13 to 17 percent were athletes, based on estimates. This 40 percent of the applicants has a combined admit rate nearly double the overall level.

Athletic admissions statistics are not released by the admissions office. Some speculate that athletes -- particularly those for big sports -- are given the highest preference of all. This does not appear to be the case at Dartmouth, although athletes do benefit from having a lobbyist in their coach. Coaches submit ranked lists of their recruited athletes to the admissions office. The admissions office then reviews the applications, taking into account the applicant's athletic talent and coach's recommendation.

"Athletic talent works in the same way other kinds of talent do. The only difference is it's a much more organized and structured recruiting process and that's a function of the NCAA and the Ivy League rules," Furstenberg said. "They tell us who they want, but there are no guaranteed number of slots."

But even with the ability to submit a list, some coaches expressed frustration with how little say they really have.

"How much clout do I have? Minimal," men's swimming coach Jim Wilson said. "If you look at my SAT scores and compare to the average SAT scores, my kids may be getting in with a 1450 instead of a 1460."

Wilson did, however, speculate that some of the "higher-profile sports like football may be getting a little more help."

Coaches are given little feedback from the admissions office before submitting their lists, according to Wilson. "I'm shooting blind," he said, adding that other schools, even in the Ivy League, are actually more lenient with athletic admissions.

"Some schools will say 'if he has this GPA and this SAT score were going to let him in.' Our admissions doesn't do that," Wilson said.

Michele Hernandez '89, who worked in the Dartmouth admissions office in the mid-1990s and is currently a private college counselor, concurred.

"Dartmouth actually has higher standards for athletes than most schools," she said. "Many athletes that are walking straight into Harvard couldn't get into Dartmouth."

While athletic talent can bolster an application, it does not replace other criteria for admission, according to Furstenberg. If coaches do not find well qualified applicants to put on their list, they risk not getting enough players that year.

"If the coaches say we need nine soccer players this year, but we only think six of them are qualified, that's what they get," he said. "All of the decisions are made here; the only person at the institution who can admit someone is me."

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit

As a Harvard alum, I do think that there was a bit of hyperbole on the Dartmouth admissions side. I actually do know an athlete who was eagerly accepted by Dartmouth, and to my disappointment, rejected by Harvard despite the student's having good scores, an excellent curriculum and being national ranked in an academic EC.

A likely letter is not binding on the college at all. Understandably, however, colleges send those letters only to students whom they plan to admit. Should the student, however, do something stupid like get expelled or start flunking, then, of course, the student would not be getting an official admission.

A likely letter is not an admission letter, even though, of course, if one gets a likely letter, admissions is very probable. To me, it seems that if a person is smart enough to get in to an Ivy, they should be smart enough to be able to tell the difference between a likely letter and an admissions letter, and to describe a likely letter accurately to friends.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:29 am: Edit

OTOH, can you imagine the uproar if a recruited athlete got a likely letter from an Ivy, turned down attractive D1 scholarship offers from other schools in reliance on it, and then DIDN'T get in? Let's get real here. Those likely letters had better be worth their weight in gold.

As far as not envying the life of an athlete...try telling that to the committed athletes! My S is up every morning at 6:30 for conditioning, and practices all afternoon, taking classes all morning and studies in the evening. He firmly believes that he is in heaven.

By Whatella (Whatella) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Definitely apply to UNC-CH. The school has a relatively low percentage of African-Americans given the state population. Many of the state's top URMs are wooed away by smaller schools that can offer a more personal environment. UNC is also 60% female so male URMs are especially coveted.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit

haha Patient! That's amazing!

No, you won't catch me envying elite athletes or their special admissions privileges. That level of committment is so far out of my realm of understanding.

It is interesting to note how twitchy CC parents can get if admission results are not the SOLE realm of academic merit. At first I thought it was just the topic of wealth and potential giving...

Interesting...

Celebrian, Are you follwoing Northstarmom's thread on Emory?

By Celebrian23 (Celebrian23) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Yes I am, that's why I was wondering becuase I thought the student's gpa was a bit low, even for a urm, and I see that all around this site, and I don't want to be pulled into believing something that is pretty improbable

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Cheers--my son was a recruited athlete, but not at the school he ended up--he was admitted early action, and then waited the entire time between December 15th and May 1 to decide between that school and the others. At the end, he was admitted to several top LACs and was also offered an athletic scholarship, but when Stanford invited him to walk on, he chose that instead.

Since he had top scores and grades and the enthusiastic blessing of his school (and is generally just a thoroughly generous and loyal kid), I think that he would have gotten into all his schools regardless, but of course we shall never know!

I am actually a critic of giving too much leeway to athletes, but perhaps that is because my son really didn't need any. I might feel differently if my child had chosen to excel at his or her sport at a level that made extensive academic prep impossible.

I think it is hard to know, when academic standards are loosened a bit for athletes, whether the student is actually just as bright but just hasn't had the time to do everything such as SAT prep. I assume the adcoms at academically strong schools spend some time trying to determine exactly that.

By Celebrian23 (Celebrian23) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit

also would applying early be helpful? showing interest that unc-ch is my #1 pick? I love their journalism program, and even more than that, I love the fact that it's only for juniors and seniors since i'm not completely sure what i want to do (i'm also interested in political science), the only other "reach" school i've liked is columbia, which i love,

By Justice (Justice) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit

i think recruiting for sports other than the major ones is kinda pointless from a practical standpoint...i mean at least the school can watch the big football/basketball game and get some school spirit. who watches the other games?