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Recently, we took S, a junior, to Emory for a day-long visit. All of us \think it would be a good match for S.

We would appreciate your suggestions about other colleges that S might want to consider, and where he might have his best chances of getting merit aid.

I have posted before, and have gotten good suggestions. Now, however, I have a better idea of what S wants from his college experience. It also seems that S would prefer to go to college in the SE and possibly Texas, which would rule out some previous suggestions.

S, who is a black male, has strong interests in psychology, creative writing and engineering. He also loves academics has always formed close relationships with teachers, and wants to go to a college that allows that. In addition, he wants a diverse, supportive, academically-focused student body.

What impressed us about Emory was how it seemed student-centered. We liked the fact that all freshmen take a seminar of their choice, and the seminar has only 20 or fewer students. We liked how professors want students to use office hours, and how even top professors will do things with students such as attend movies with them as part of a class.

We also liked how the university supports students' exploring their interests -- from double majoring to offering opportunities for even freshmen to do research with top professors. S liked the fact that Emory lacks a football team.

I think that S has decent chances of being accepted. He probably will have SAT scores in the low 1400s, be National Merit Commended and at least a National Achievement Semi-finalist.

Our county is 1/3 black, and he is the only black male junior who has chosen to stay in the county's most rigorous academic program. He has chosen to take the toughest academic curriculum in that program.

He has a demonstrated, sincere interest in community service and holds countywide and school leadership positions that require active involvement. By his own choice, he spent a summer doing a 7-week out of state select engineering program, where he obtained all As and Bs.

S is carrying, however, only a 3.7 weighted gpa, 3.0 unweighted. He is in the top 25% of his class.

His relatively low gpa is not due to laziness or disinterest but appears to be due to organizational problems, perfectionism, and his approaching English and history reading the same way that he was approaching science and math reading. With tutoring and counseling, he has been improving in those areas, but I still imagine that his unweighted gpa this year will probably be at the max 3.2. He is taking a killer courseload at his h.s. plus is taking an extra course at a community college.

If S also takes out loans, we think that we could fund $20 k a year of S's education. Need-based aid is doubtful, though we might get a thousand or 2 a year.

Would S would have any chance for Emory Scholars? Are there things he could do now to improve his chances? Do schools like Tulane, Rice or Wake Forest seem like possible matches, including for his getting merit aid? Any other school suggestions?

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, based on our experience it may be best to apply to more schools. Yes-- apply to those SE, TX schools but add more geographic diversity. IMHO merit awards are to win students from competing institutions and the student will be disadvantaged by not being accepted by competing or, even better, more highly ranked schools. This also works with FA, again MHO. IMHO applying too many schools allows you to focus on fit after acceptances when the schools let the student know how far they are willing to go to achieve that fit.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

>> Would S would have any chance for Emory Scholars?

Beats me. My daughter applied, but withdrew her application before the first round of decisions. I have looked it up and Emory offers merit-aid to 5% of the student body. That leads me to believe that Emory Scholars are typically very high-stat kids.

Of course, the $160,000 question is trying to define the real boost of URM status. I saw some stats from this year's freshman class at Swat that make me think being a bright African-American males may be the single biggest hook in college admissions. Swarthmore's incoming African-American students are 75% female/25% male -- a ratio that is probably most difficult to overcome for schools that don't have football and big-time athletic programs.

I think that trying to pin down admissions (and aid) odds for your son is impossibly difficult, due to the incredible lack of admissions data. It would be easy to say that your son has no chance at Emory Scholars, but it is equally likely that they would fall all over themselves to recruit your son. Likewise, I could easily see a scenario where he would be a very attractive candidate in even more selective programs. For example, I would not be at all surprised if your son could get an acceptance letter at Swarthmore. I think the applicant pool and yield rates for African-American males may be that dire at elite colleges. I guess that, if I were in your shoes, I would be thinking in terms of casting a wide net, much wider than I would normally recommend.

As for other schools, I think Wake Forest would certainly be a viable school to consider besides Emory. When we visited, we spent an hour talking to a female Af-Am senior who was VERY happy with with her four years at Wake. Wake does have a much more visible big-time athletic program than Emory -- one that probably stretches the school thin trying to compete with large state universites. Also, Winston-Salem is not in the same category as Atlanta in terms of vibrant places to live. Nevertheless, I thought Wake was a good solid modern university.

My daughter really liked Emory. I think the fact that it is NOT an athletics school is a big plus. The strong points are huge endowment, tight integration with a wonderfully vibrant city, and unbelievable facilities. Downside: probably a little too rich/preppie/doctor/lawyer, but not oppressively so. Emory blew every other college out of the water with the sophistication of their admissions office, response mailings, computer tracking, etc. I was very impressed.

By Thumper1 (Thumper1) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Our daughter is also very interested in Emory. We are from New England which doesn't have a huge representation there. She is not a URM, but will have solid SATs and grades, we think. The only rub is that she wants to play her oboe in college. Emory has a fine music program and we don't know yet whether there are ensembles and lesson available for nonmajors. We have heard that they are generous with the merit aid they award (this came from an alum).

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 12:41 pm: Edit

S hates competitive sports and rah rah atmospheres, so my guess is that in many ways Swat could be a good match for him. The one major problem, however, is that I highly doubt that he'd qualify for their limited merit aid as his stats are low for admission there.

Does anyone know what LACs offering merit aid also offer fly-ins for URMs? I know that Rice does, but are there others? Amherst does, but, alas, offers no merit aid.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:14 pm: Edit

>> so my guess is that in many ways Swat could be a good match for him. The one major problem, however, is that I highly doubt that he'd qualify for their limited merit aid as his stats are low for admission there.

I wasn't recommending Swat, so much as I was using it as an example of the difficulty in recruiting Af-Am males. They had an historically imbalanced male/female ratio in this year's Af-Am freshmen recruits, so it may indicate an opportunity for next year's class.

I suspect from an article in the JBHE correlating male Af-Am enrollement and varsity sports that your son may have some opportunities at many elite schools that de-emphasis athletics -- opportunities that include both admissions and what can be somewhat liberal interpretations of need-based and merit-based aid!

Just thinking how I would approach it as a parent in your shoes... I would find it so difficult to make a realistic assessment of "odds", that I wouldn't hestitate at all to cast a wide net. For example, if my kid felt an attraction to Swarthmore (or Emory or wherever), I would go for it, even if part of the "stats" package indicated a long shot. Note that this runs counter to my general philosophy; I just don't know any other way to approach it when there is so little hard data to go on.

BTW, my gut hunch is that your son would have a decent shot of admissions at Swat. I have no idea how much they "bend" the definition of need-based aid; however, I do know that 50% of their aid recepients this year have family incomes above $80k per year.

It's hard to judge whether Emory faces the same recruiting challenges. They have a much bigger merit aid program and a large African-American enrollment (9%). However, they also have a strong Af-Am population to pull from in the Atlanta area.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit

"I suspect from an article in the JBHE correlating male Af-Am enrollement and varsity sports that your son may have some opportunities at many elite schools that de-emphasis athletics -- opportunities that include both admissions and what can be somewhat liberal interpretations of need-based and merit-based aid! "

Do you remember what issue that article was in? I have a several-year collection of JBHE, which is a great journal. If you roughly remember when the article was, I can easily look it up.

By Voronwe (Voronwe) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I know you are not interested in the NE, but Bowdoin, which is always in the top ten, is actively recruiting URMS. They also have freshmen seminars chosen by the student with about 15 students in each. My nephew goes there and he said a black male spoke at Admitted Students weekend, and this male said it was the greatest place - yet one which he never in a million years considered until they flew him out.

If you can get ahold of the NY Times magazine section for 6/20/2004, there is a very, very powerful story (it was the cover story) about a black Bowdoin graduate's work in Harlem. Very moving - you rarely see a NY Times story in which ALL the follow up letters are positive.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Bowdoin has a long history of doing very well by black males dating back to the 1800s. I have a close friend who is a black, male Bowdoin alum, and Bowdoin seems to have done well by him. I also know that Bowdoin is the alma mater of, I believe, the black man who heads Newsweek.

I have a friend who used to teach there, and I have heard marvelous things from her about the education it provides.

My concern about Bowdoin is lack of merit aid. Any idea about how flexible they are in determining need-based aid?

By Jenskate1 (Jenskate1) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:44 pm: Edit

I think that Emory and Rice are fairly similar schools in many ways. There have actually been several threads comparing them. Rice is quite a bit cheaper than Emory, and like Emory, gives merit aid.

I'd definitely encourage you to consider it.

Have you looked at U. of Richmond?

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:57 pm: Edit

>> Do you remember what issue that article was in?

Here's one link on Rice:

http://www.jbhe.com/latest/052004_athletics_at_Rice.html

No. I can't find it, now. The JBHE's online search engine doesn't appear to be very comprehensive. I recall a more comprehensive article covering the role varstity athletics plays in Af-Am enrollment. If I recall, the JBHE viewed that as a mixed blessing...glad to see the enrollment, but not really comfortable with the degree that it is driven by athletics

I know that Swarthmore got hammered in this year's JBHE liberal arts survey for their declines in Af-Am freshmen enrollment from very high levels in the past. It's a bit unfair numerically because change in freshman enrollment counts as much in the JBHE methodology than total Af-Am enrollment. So, even though Swat has had (and continues to have) one of the highest percentages of black students and black faculty, they moved down to the seventh slot on the JBHE's rankings behind some schools with far less diversity, but larger percentage increases. This kind of data underscores that the all the recruiting hasn't really changed the underlying problems. Swarthmore, for example, hit their target of 10% Af-Am enrollment in 1980 and now, 25 years later, can't get back up to that high-water mark.

From looking at the historical data, Swat's Af-Am freshmen enrollment showed an immediate decline following the decision to drop football in 2000, although it has started to rebound a bit. I would guess that the low number of Af-Am males in this year's freshman class is a sore subject in the admissions office.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 04:22 pm: Edit

What about Rice's reputation for being conservative? Son also considered Rice because, statistically, it looked like a great match. But, the constant references to conservatism were a turnoff. I think one of the guide books even said (paraphrase) that Rice students don't bother with being political correct or liberal.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Gosh, it sounds like Emory is the perfect fit. Atlanta would be more dynamic than small town Maine...

1. Why is the GPA so low? Is there an explanation/story that could help sell him as a bonafide scholar? Without the GPA, he's a shoo-in...

2. Emory is bananas about their ED/EA (I forget which one)--because they like to get kids who really want to be there. Can he apply EA as a scholar?

Keep talking to Emory. I think he has a real shot at the scholars program--depending on the layout of that GPA, (low scores in sophomore year etc). He sounds like their ideal candidate.

By Jenskate1 (Jenskate1) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Momsdream -
As a New York dem who's a freshman at rice, I admit I was nervous about the conservatism. However, contrary to the rep, rice is mostly democrats! Sure there are some republicans, but you wouldn't want to go to a school where everyone had the same beliefs, would you? I was thrilled to find that there are active chapters of young democrats, rice for peace, and rice for choice. These clubs are matched by Young Republicans and Rice for life. There are plently of christian organizations, but also a secular students group and hillel and (i believe) an agnostics/athiests group. I have found a HUGE diversity of opinions here, and am thrilled by that. And even the people that I disagree with are more than willing to respectfully debate the issues.

You might also want to check on rice's undergrad student website - the current poll is "which party do you affilliate with?" At last check (10 min ago) it was mostly dems, with about 1/3 republicans and the rest apathtic or independent.

Not exactly what you might expect. Unless you live here, that is.

If rice's conservative rep is the only thing that discouaged your son from applying, I'd really urge him to reconsider.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 07:59 pm: Edit

NSmom, I don't have time to read all the posts. The val at one of the larger public high schools in my town (African-American female) turned down her acceptance to Harvard for a full ride plus travel stipend from Emory. Her story was picked up by a national newspaper, as well as being featured locally last spring because her graduation coincided with the anniversary of Brown vs BOE and her school was the defendant in one of the longest running deseg cases in the state.
Having said that, her aid was merit aid (parents made 6 figures, the article also discussed merit aid and the cost of college), and I have to assume her stats are higher than your son's to be Val, and IB, Ithink. However, that doesn't mean he won't be eligible for some generous aid from Emory. I would look at Rice too, Trinity in Tx, Ole Miss Honors College, and Richmond. Wake, Furman and UVa and Vandy too. His best bet will probably be to apply to as many schools as he likes in order to maximize merit aid chances, because the money may be something of a crapshoot, although he will probably be admitted to all these schools.
This may be a time to express interest to the adcom at Emory - this is first choice but he needs dollars to attend - what's the consensus?

By Voronwe (Voronwe) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, in answer to your question, my family can't say enough good things about Bowdoin, but my nephew did not apply for aid so I don't know THAT much. I do know, however, that the new pres. is deeply, DEEPLY committed to diversity - it's a main priority of his - and I think it DOES translate into generous aid.

By Wobudong (Wobudong) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:22 pm: Edit

As a previous post noted, the Trustees at Rice have expressed a concern that too much of the racial diversity is the result of athletic scholarships, although Rice is the smallest Division 1 university. This public recognition certainly suggests that the university intends to increase its efforts to attract minority students who are highly qualified academically. In addition to having far lower tuition that its peer institutions, Rice offers several merit scholarships, including the Barbara Jordan Scholars program.

As far as the guidebook that said that Rice students don't bother being politically correct or liberal, that it hardly a statement that Rice is conservative. It simply means that there is no political bias and all views are respected. The one trait that is institutionally excluded from the culture is elitism. Rice has one of two residential college systems in the country. The other is Yale's. There are no frats or sororities, no special dorms for athletes, and assignment to a residential college is random.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, Your son might want to check out Trinity University in San Antonio as a potential financial safety. They are VERY generous with merit aid and have excellent psychology and engineering programs (I know they have a good English department but you'll have to check on the availability of creative writing classes). They are actively recruiting outside of Texas, have excellent academics, a friendly campus, very interested in URMs. www.trinity.edu

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:27 am: Edit

Wobudong-

From the book "The Hidden Ivies" on Rice..

"Due to the university's outstanding science and engineering departments and the professional goals of a majority of undergraduates, the overriding tone of the community is conservative to moderate, and one that does not take much time to consider the politically correct issues and activist behavior that define many of the other top colleges and universities."

and later...

"Traditional" is the operative word to describe the attitudes and lifestyle of the majority of Rice students."

Just repeating what I read...

By Jenskate1 (Jenskate1) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:41 am: Edit

Well, that's an interesting statement. But not one that I've found at all true. I mean, how long could the author of that book have possibly spent on the Rice campus? I am pretty confident that it was less than the 2 months that we've been here now. I would advise you to try to speak to more students and gauge their opinions, rather than relying purely on the guidebooks.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:45 am: Edit

Jenskate-

What year are you in?

By Iska (Iska) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:48 am: Edit

I think the low-URM Northeastern, Mid-Atlantic, and Midwestern schools that are seeking black males will be his best bet for merit aid. Emory Scholars, I think, is out of reach on account of GPA and class rank. Emory is a numbers school. For a rich school, Emory, like Duke, is not that liberal with its funds. If he wants to get into Emory in the first place, make sure he visits, maybe stay overnight, and order the free Emory video. They may otherwise deny him. Emory has the Emory-Tufts-URochester syndrome. Richmond might work. It's just that GPA. He may need an explanatory letter from the senior counselor or someone.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:52 am: Edit

What does a 3.0 equate to in terms of letter grades?

By Jenskate1 (Jenskate1) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit

momsdream - I'm a freshman, and 3.0 is generally a B. Feel free to e-mail me...I feel kind of bad for hijacking this thread.

Northstarmom - I too have heard great things about Trinity from a friend of mine who's a freshman there.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

A 3.0 is a "B" average. I know it probably is hard to believe, but when it comes to black males, it is extremely hard to find them with unweighted 3.0 averages.

There even was an article last spring about an overwhelmingly black Mississippi school that couldn't find a homecoming king because not one senior had an unweighted 2.5.

The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, has stats showing that very few black students are doing things like taking AP courses.

Even fewer are passing them. When it comes to taking the rigorous courses required for math or science college majors, there are even fewer black students who do these things. Also, the overwhelming majority of the black students with excellent grades, good scores and tough math/science courses are female

About 4 years ago, I met an adcom for a top 10, nonIVY school, and I also met a person who a year previously had been an adcom for an Ivy (not Harvard or Penn., but I won't be more specific). Both told me that it is very difficult for them to find black males who qualify for admission -- meaning that the students have had the curriculum and have test scores (minimum 1200 SAT) indicating they can be successful at the college.

Both said very clearly, that black males with unweighted gpas of 3.0 are considered for admission if those students have very strong curriculum and test scores. That doesn't mean that the students are guaranteed admission, but depending on the rest of the application, such students have a chance.

This year, I also heard from an Ivy adcom (not Harvard of Penn) that it is very hard to find black males, and those with "B" averages are considered.

This adcom said that the males most likely to be considered with 3.0 averages are those who are first generation college or have other mitigating factors such as growing up in a neighborhood in which few people go to college. This adcom said specifically that lazy kids of well educated professionals are not wanted, and that's very understandable!

As you can see, for a variety of reasons, your S will be highly desired by the very top colleges.

In the case of my S, the fact that he is the county's only black male in the toughest academic program is a big plus. Our county has been very concerned that despite blacks being 30% of the population, black males won't stay in the top academic program.

Black male drop-outs from the progam even included a kid with parents who each graduated from Ivies. Many black males have dropped out of S's program because of the pressure they got from black males who are not in that academic magnet program.

S also has chosen the toughest academic sequence in that already tough program. This includes an academic area elective that he hadn't done since elementary school. When he began h.s. in that elective, he was far behind the other students. The class was tough, and many of the other students, including more experienced ones, switched electives second semester.

S prevailed, and over the years went from Cs in that to As in that subject while also getting excellent grades in the toughest math and science classes, classes that most students in his program avoid taking even if they are planning on math/science careers, something S hasn't decided whether to do.

Anyway, I think that S will be able to get recommendations that put his academic performance into perspective and that also highlight how remarkable he has been in also taking on leadership roles in the school and the community.

I am hoping this will help him gain entrance to a LAC with good academics and a supportive faculty and nice merit aid.

I really appreciate the suggestions that so many people have made, and I am looking into those colleges.

By Sillystring7 (Sillystring7) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:24 pm: Edit

While I think Northstarmom's son will definitely be admitted to Emory with his stats, I agree with the earlier poster who did not think he would be a candidate for the Emory Scholar program. It is true that they are very stats-oriented. My daughter was a finalist last year, and actually received the full-tuition scholarship. While she was impressed with Emory's facilities and liked the professors very much, she was not wowed by the other scholars. They had excellent grades, EC's and test scores, but she said they were not particularly intellectually driven. Also, she described them as homogenous and somewhat cliqueish. I believe there were some minority students, but not an overwhelming number. She was very interested in Emory prior to scholar weekend, but much less interested afterward. But remember, that is only her opinion. She ended up at UChicago and is very happy there.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:17 pm: Edit

I know a young man (white) who found Emory not to be academically challenging and the student body not intellectually stimulating. He transferred to Duke after one year and will graduate this spring. Just one story and there are probably many that go the other way.

Sounds like your son will be a desirable candidate at many places. Evil Robot is very happy at Vanderbilt. Does this school offer what your son is looking for?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Vandy has many excellent things going for it that could make it, I think, a good match for S.

I am concerned, though, about merit aid even though Vandy has some earmarked for URMs. Older S was accepted there and got no merit aid despite even applying for a non URM-related merit scholarship, for which S had very strong credentials.

Perhaps my husband and I made a mistake by not applying for need-based aid for that son, but Vandy's web site indicated its merit aid truly was based only on merit.

Vandy also seemed to really want older S because after he turned them down, they sent him a letter asking him to tell them immediately if he changed his mind.

This is why I haven't encouraged my younger S to look at Vandy.

By Iska (Iska) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

For merit aid, Vandy gives the best financial awards to people who score high on stats and community service. Without community service, high stats lose their potency as far as merit money is concerned.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

S had a documented track record of for years providing a service that was of great use to our local black community. He did this completely as a volunteer, and also had a very strong recommendation letter attesting to this. The service he was providing also directly related to one of Vandy's merit scholarships.

His SATs were very strong, and he was National Merit commended with a tough curriculum. Grades were not impressive.

What didn't make sense to us was that after Vandy admitted him without offering merit money, and after S turned down Vandy, the university sent him a personal letter asking him to reconsider his decision. Why bother doing that unless they really wanted him?

Another university also tried to get S after S turned them down, but at least that university had offered S merit money.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, the above re your son is very interesting. Wouldn't it be great to know what was going on? We had odd experiences also. Because of FAFSA each college had a list of schools to which my sons were applying, or at least a partial list.. Maybe only 6 fit on the form? My high stat son received some amazing (to us) FA offers and wonderful merit award offers. I have already written that FA awards from comparable need-blind schools varied considerably. Additionally one need-blind school contacted me several times requesting more in depth financial records and challenging me on several points. Only this one school questioned anything I sent for this applicant. Then the school wait-listed my son and when we didn't return the card (I was already pretty clear even beyond the fact he had really wonderful offers in hand, this was going to be a very difficult FA office to deal with the next 4 years) they began emailing repeatedly wondering why he hadn't signed up for the waitlist. My interpretation, which may well be completely wrong, is that though they were interested in my son they weren't interested enough to come up with the $$ needed to compete with their peer institutions. Also, I think merit awards and great FA awards were an effort to win him away from other schools to which they knew he was applying. My good enough stat son had similar experiences. One ivy, which waitlisted him, called requesting additional financial info, kind of nitpicky stuff. They sent a letter wondering where that waitlist postcard was and letting him know it wasn't too late.. though past their posted deadline. Other ivys gave him better than expected FA packages and he attends one of them. Again major merit award offers from excellent schools which knew he had other offers. Emory on the other hand waitlisted him and then sent about a dozen emails saying he could be in their community college and maybe transfer to Emory later. In retrospect I think those calls, and they were personal phone calls from FA counselors - not letters, were an effort to understand how serious my sons were about the school and how much the parents might be willing to pay for tuition... MHO which may be totally wrong. Now my sons had good profiles but no different than most of the other students described here. I think that applying to an outrageous number of colleges- 15 in one case- is really what triggered a completely unexpected response in terms of FA/merit awards. That son just applied to so many because after an unexpected early deferral we were not clear what was going to be possible and just added to the original list anything that sounded good. I would be very interested if other parents had similar experiences?

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Northstarmom - As you know, selective LAC/merit money/engineering/the South/diverse is a combination that is almost a non-starter. (If S would consider a 3+2 engineering program that might open up one or two possiblities, like Furman or Davidson, though neither is very diverse.) You also know that your son's URM status does make him a very attractive candidate at eastern and midwestern LACs/mid-size unis, some of whom have specific merit scholarships for URMs. But again, diversity might be a problem.

If he doesn't loosen his criteria, Tulane and Vanderbilt do strike me as his best bets.

By Wjb (Wjb) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 07:49 pm: Edit

One more piece of information about Emory. It has a reputation (in our high school, anyway) for lacking a sense of cohesive community. Apparently, a huge number of kids move off campus after freshman year, many into gated condomiunium complexes. The result is a fractured campus, both literally and figuratively. Close community is not a priority for every kid, of course. But for kids who are also seriously considering LACs, it might be worthwhile to investigate this aspect of Emory. I caution that my info is anecdotal only, not derived from a controlled double-blind study!

By Sillystring7 (Sillystring7) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:19 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, my daughter loved Tulane -- if she had not gone to UChicago, she might very well have chosen Tulane over Emory. Tulane offers more merit scholarships than does Emory (at least it seemed that way). Their top scholarship, the Dean's Honor Scholarship, requires a special project.

By Iflyjets (Iflyjets) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, I would second the advice about URM status helping out at Emory. My D (with a 1550 SAT, 4.0 UW GPA, 4.65 GPA) did not make it to the final cut for Emory Scholar. She was accepted for admission, but declined for another school. Does your son have any interest in some of the LACs in the south, such as Davdison or Furman? Davidson (another school where she was accepted, but without any merit money) has numerous scholarship programs available and a rigorous academic reputation. My D is attending Furman, which also has many scholarships available, and is finding the academics very challenging, the students far more diverse (especially in their personalities and interests) than most commentaries suggest, and the atmoshpere very supportive. You might also look into Tulane, which many people this year are reporting wonderful experiences with. We also know studetnts who received very nice merit money (in the mid-1400s) at both Bucknell and Grinnell. Good luck.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 09:01 am: Edit

Hmmmm...Tulane is an interesting consideration. We haven't considered it here. I'm curious about NSM's feelings about it, if any. It's mid-sized, southern, urban.......very interesting.

Also looks like they might need a few URMs NSM (3% black/hispanic)...so maybe the merit aid will be more generous. That's the good news. The bad news is, well, they appear to need URMs. Bucknell's position is worse....only 2% black/hispanic...which is pathetic.
We skipped Bucknell because of the location and URM community (or lack thereof).

By Cangel (Cangel) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

The big selling point, and the big drawback to Tulane is that it is in New Orleans.
Tulane is working hard to upgrade facilities and attract serious students via merit $s. It still has a significant size, well-heeled population that may be less academic, and a growing group of kids recruited, often from out of state, for academics.

I think a number of kids may go to Tulane, drink themselves into oblivion for a few weeks - then either wake up and realize that this is not going to cut it and forgo Bourbon Street, or flunk out, or perhaps disappear into an alcoholic fog! My point is that New Orleans would be a wonderful place to go to college - and that's scary, too. This is a know your child thing, because N'Awlins takes "distraction" to a whole new level.
But, the restaurants you would get visit on your parents vistis are fabulous!

By Cangel (Cangel) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

I re-read my post - I sound like a total Tulane basher again, I'm not.
Tulane is a great school with excellent science and engineering programs.
New orleans is one of the most fascinating and culturally distinct cities in the US. It is also Party Central (along with Gulf Coast beaches) for most of the colleges in the SE. Several of these are close enough for weekend trips (day trips if you're at LSU), not just MG and Sugar Bowl. Not to mention one of the convention capitals of the country.
The kids at Tulane, Loyola and Xavier have to work it out of their systems somehow. My guess is that like a lot of people around here, by soph year they use Mardi Gras as an early spring break and get as far away from NO as possible.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, it is definitely worth your son's while to check out Emory, Vanderbilt (despite your previous experience with them) and Tulane. Those schools have been very aggressive with merit aid for the kids that they really want. Many times the adcoms are not as well connected with some of the aid programs as they should be and I have seen issues where they beg the child to come to the school when the family has made it clear to admissions that merit aid is going to be a big factor in the decision and the kid hardly got any. A close friend who is African American with a daughter with high stats, did not get any school money at all though she was accepted everywhere she applied. The family did not qualify for financial aid, though they did apply, but had some family issues that made it problematic to pay a full private tuition bill. She did not choose her colleges carefully for merit programs, thinking that she would get something, and her counselors at school reinforced this thinking. Did not work out that way.

Also CMU and Case Western are schools that would be of interest. Wake Forest, another one with merit aid, and more in the geographic area your son likes.

Also the Emory Scholars program has a variety of factors that are considered for awards. Some are reserved for purely academic pursuits and high test score kids. Others do consider B students and kids not as high up on the SAT rack, but have attributes and talents that the school is seeking. I remember some performing arts types getting awards without having the academic numbers that usually warrent such awards. So a lot of what is awarded is dependent on what the school feels it needs that particular year and what the competition is like in his pool of applicants.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Northstarmom; What major is your S considering?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Thanks, again, everyone, for the great help!

S is considering majoring in engineering, psychology, English or creative writing. His career interests include engineer, psychologist or secondary school teacher.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Nothstarmom:

All you loose is $$ fee for application and few hours of your son time. So apply and see what happenss. I think your SOn's stat are not bad at all as very difficult to get a URM interested in scince. Good luck to him

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 05:05 pm: Edit

"S hates competitive sports and rah rah atmospheres"

My son also hates these and is looking at a range of majors. The schools that are are still on his list after visiting are Bowdoin, Brandeis (said they were looking for diversity), Allegheny (I know its in the middle of nowhere, but its very nice). I am not sure if Case would be a good merit prospect, but their on-line app is free, so why not - and their EA date is November 15th.

My son will be visiting Macalester and Carleton, so I can tell you if they get wiped due to the above factors in about a week and a half.