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Son of off from school today...

10:00 - Mom: "Get up and put the trash on the curb."
10:15 - son: "ok, and then I'll have breakfast and get down to business" (studying for SATII tomorrow)
11:00 - son seems to be studying bcus all is quiet
1:00 - son: "I'm done!!"
mom: "Ok, take the practice test"
son: "no, I didn't start the SAT studying yet, I was doing an application"
mom: (a little annoyed) "when is the app due?" (knowing the answer, but making a point)
son : "whenever"
mom: "ok, but you have SATs TOMORROW!! That should be your immediate priority."
Son: "Gee mom, way to congratulate me on finishing my application"
mom: "congratulations Now, about the SATII, do you need help?"
son: "no" (disappointed, walks out)
Son: (yelling form hallway) "I finished my essay last night." (mom is impressed - never had to ask about it)
mom: (sensing son's frustration and feeling bad) "good job!"
3:00 - son: "there's a problem"
mom: "what"
son: "I don't know any of this"(holding his SATII Literature practice book)
mom: "I thought you said you learned Lit in school and all of your classmates were taking Lit SATII"
son: "they're taking it in November, you're making me take it too soon"
mom: (thinking "yeah right" this isn't MY fault)
mom: "wanna take history instead?"
son: "no, history is too hard, too much to study, no idea what they'll ask"
mom: (trying not to sound sarcastic) "I guess it would have helped it you had studied before today"
son: "I doubt it"
mom: "how would extra study time not help?" (realizing that son is stressed out and saying anything)
son: "I guess"
mom: "well, look at it this way...it's better that you have a little time to become familiar than going in cold and realizing it's so hard tomorrow"
son: "yeah, like the math was"
mom: "exactly - just do your best"
son: "it's just frustrating because I'm cramming all of this stuff into my brain and I'll never use it again"
mom: "you WILL use it again and agian and again, you'll see....maybe you should have taken the history exam"
son: "maybe I don't want to study history anymore"

mom: (realizing he's just frustrated)"ok, well, take the test and do your best.."

He's soooooo stressed out. I can't wait until this is over.

Tomorrow he's taking Math for the second time and Lit for the first. He's very ready for Math...ahd been studying like crazy and taking lots of practice tests. But, he thought he had been prepared for the Lit in school. Obviously, he doesn't feel ready.

He's taking SATI in Nov, so we can't delay the Lit til then.

I'm worried. What happens if he totally bombs? If all else is good, will the SATII Lit score get him rejected?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit

I started reading the dialogue without noticing who posted. The minute I got to then nagging part, I knew it was you.

My advice is to chill. Your son is taking a tough academic program, has great grades, and he tests well. On top of all of that, he's a highly desired URM.

Please chill before due to your nagging, he bombs the test out of either spite or because your nagging and worrying causes him to doubt himself and he goes in far weaker than he normally would.

My impression, too, is that one really doesn't need to study for literature since it's mainly a test of reading comprehension. My older son didn't study for that test at all, and did fine.

Based on the various things that you've posted about your son, I think that he has so many strong things going for him that even if he does manage to bomb an SAT II, he'll still get top acceptances.

Please, please stop trying to micromanage him.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Momsdream:

I second NSM. Your son has a lot going for him, and a genuine passion that will impress adcoms.
The most important thing now is for him to relax and have a good night's rest. Don't make him study any more today. Maybe you can all watch the presidential debates instead.
Whatever you do, just relax.

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

He could take math tomorrow, SAT I in November, and SAT II Lit in December (as long as he's not doing EA or ED with 3 SAT II's required). My son is taking IIC tomorrow, writing in November, and the final SAT I retake in December. The (hopefully higher) score for his December retake is not critical to his one EA application.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Wow, that's very insulting Northstar.....not only your words but your overall tone.... I think (no, I know) I've done a good job as a parent, thus far. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here talking about such topics.

How is waking a child at 10am nagging? How is asking a child to review a SAT book nagging? Have you seen the Lit SAT2? It's NOT reading comprehension. It's related to very specific literary terms...terms that my son isn't at all familiar with.....and you would just send him in to take a test in such a state without fair warning?

You seem to be very convinced that my son's URM status will breeze him into any school. Well, he doesn't want to breeze in. He wants to compete on his merit and be able to keep up with "everyone" else, wihtout special consideration. If he wasn't a URM, you wouldn't be saying the things you're saying.....you'd be calling his desires to question and scrutinizing his chances. So, while he may "get in" because of his URM status, that's only the beginning. He HAS to enter on the same level as everyone else so that he can keep up and come out with the best education possible. How many URMs get in and fail out (or drop out?). Not that he's anywhere close to anything like that, but maybe you see the point.

I posted the "conversation" thinking that other parents would empathize and chuckle at the similarities....not blatantly insult me the way you have. This isn't the first time, either.

I'm sorry I'm not coming on here with the everyday...."my kid is so great he flew to the moon and back last night on his own science fair experiment". Yes, he's great. But, this site isn't a place for me to show up and brag about yesterday's accomplishments. I'm focused on the future.....and just trying to help my son. And, I think my questions, situtations, etc are more "real life" than most of what I read on here....and I suppose that makes me a target for insult.

If anyone else had talented, normal kid that needs a little prodding her and there, let me know and let's laugh a little.

I don't think I'm the one who needs to chill.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Thanks Ohio. He is applying Ed with three SAT IIs required. That's the problem.

While I was picking my jaw up off the floor from the previous post, son came in and said he's gone through several of the readings and questions and feels good enough about it now. He's going to the gym and will do a practice test later this evening. His mood has dramatically changed since he realizes that it's doable.

By Alwaysamom (Alwaysamom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Momsdream, I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with your S's situation or his desired schools but I'd have to agree with the others that the nagging is probably not productive. I'm sure you probably already know this (we all do but sometimes we nag anyway!) Studying at this point for the literature SATII is not going to make a difference so I'd also recommend watching the debate.

I'm curious about how people decide when to write SATs I & IIs. I seem to see a lot of similar situations where kids are stressing out from writing them in the fall of their senior year, or re-writing, or squeezing SAT II's in. My Ds all wrote SAT I in the spring of their junior year and did just fine only doing them once, then the two who did SAT II did them on the October date. I realize that some kids are not fortunate enough to do well and feel that a re-take will make a difference, and I understand that. However, there seem to be a lot of kids who wait til the last moment almost, which seems to contradict the otherwise obsessed feeling that a lot of kids (and parents) have for starting the college application and search process early. Any thoughts?

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Always,

I'm going to skip the comments on the nagging since I don't know where I nagged.

With regard to your questions on when to sit for the exams (which is a good topic)...here is what happened with us....(again, real life scenario from real life mom)

My son took his SAT Is twice last Spring...I think March and June. He tool his SATIIs (math and writing) in May, I think. His first set of SATI scores were mediocre. He had no prep....and went in cold. He was shocked because his SAT score was below his PSAT equivalent....well below. He started tutoring for SAT I and took his SAT IIs on the next date open...great on writing, horrible on Math (his final grade for honors calc last year was an A, go figure). Then he re-took his SATI and his score jumped 230 points. But, his score is lopsided.....his verbal is way higher than math. So, his math SAT I and math SAT II need help He took a class during the summer to boost his math skills. So, now he's going back in for SATII math and his new SAT II, Lit. And, in Nov, he'll re-take his SAT for the purpose of improving Math. This was all based on the recommendation of his GC and his feelings about what he was capable of.

So, to answer you question, he didin't wait til now to take the tests...

Now, I guess you might surmise that my son might not be a great test taker. He's in a Nationally recognized prep school and ended last year with mostly As...in all honors classes. But, if this is the case, it's new. He was a JHU Talent Search kid and has always been in the 98% or above on standardized tests. The SATs just stumped him.....LOL.

It really makes me wonder what's up. I mean, you take a star performer....best schools...always at the top...nationally recognized test taker...

and give him an SAT and he's "mediocre" without tutoring.

Is the SAT really a good measure of ability?

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

OKAY! LOL...

Son just came in to say goodbye (going to gym)...

rubbing his hands saying he's excited to "bust out" his math (his term)....

I said "you're ready, eh?"

He said'"yeah, and I have my calculator".

I said' you had it last time, didn't you".

He said "no, I took it without a calculator...but will use one this time"

HOLY COW!!!

More conversations from my home....

go on...laugh. it's ok, really.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Momsdream- I did laugh. The conversation could take place at our house on any varied day of the week. Their moods and confidence level changes with the drop of a hat. And with my D it can change dramatically for the better after she has had something to eat. I think alot of times it is there way of saying they are scared yet can't express it so they make you out to be the bad guy.

Or you end up stressing all day and he has forgotten he was even stressed 2 hours ago.

D is retaking the Sat tomorrow and hasn't opened a prep book all week. Sometimes you have to wonder how hard to push. Do you push or just leave it up to them?
They can be so frustrating!
Good luck to him tomorrow.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:00 pm: Edit

"Is the SAT really a good measure of ability?"

MHO - NO! It's a good measure of SAT prep and/or the sort of educational background for which SAT tests. But, like class rank, it sort of identifies (again MHO) which students are really focused on this college process. Clearly there are many many students with mediocre SAT's and average class ranks who would thrive at top colleges if given the opportunity. Given that the SAT is so important in college admission I understand parents being very concerned with their kids adequately preparing but I frequently wonder at what point this isn't our responsibility any more. Some time back I read a book by an ivy student saying he thought he was only at that college because of his parents' pushing and how grateful he was-- can't recall the title. It was a big issue in our house how much to push. To some the original post might seem nagging. To others it probably is inconceivable that the mom hadn't seen a practice test score prior to this. Absolutely no judgement on my part!! Just wonder a lot about when and how parents decide it is up to the student to be responsible for these issues.

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

OK, I'll bite. I do nag; hard to be a mother of teens and not nag a bit!! I have reminded my daughter every day the last week or two to remember to go over her vocab (this is her weak area). She started to get frustrated the other day, but knowing my child who likes to procrastinate, I continued to remind her that she needed to review some. After she was upset with me for "nagging", she decided that she and a few friends were going to a movie tonight. Due to EC activities, the girls have to see a 9:20 show. I made a comment on the late evening, but let it drop as I was losing. D comes home today from school and informs me that she and one of the other girls feel guilty about going out tonight so they have decided to stay home. Does that mean she will review tonight, my guess is very little. I think she will be watching TV as usual, maybe with her flashcards by her side. At this point, either she knows it or she doesn't. Cramming isn't going to help.

BTW, just got a phone call from her tutoring service wishing her good luck on the test tomorrow. They suggested that she relax tonight and watch a movie!! The service also said for her to do a bit of light reading in the AM so that the SAT isn't the first thing she reads tomorrow. Somehow I believe this is what she will do.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Mom60-
Thanks "Or you end up stressing all day and he has forgotten he was even stressed 2 hours ago" you feel my pain!!

Empty, you are right. Kids transition to adulthood at various phases. My son is one of the late bloomers. He's a very talented, smart, funny kid. He's also immature. I have begun to let him "slip" on the consequences of his actions. If I know something is due the following day, and I know he knows it too, I remain silent. Sure enough, I get the call the next day "mom, guess what...". Hmmmmm....

But, the SATs are not a time for "life's lessons" in responsibility, especially for a kid who has the talent to perform.

Maturity and responsibility come with time and experience. And, we parents have to ensure that our kids get the right level of exposure...and fail where they may. But, if you KNOW you child is bright, talented, accomplished..do you let him/her fail in front of the world on such at such a pivotal time as the SATs, just because you think the time has come to teach him/her a lesson in maturity? I don't think so. Others may disagree.

Son got his C last spring because I let him do his thing. He wasn't studying as much as he used to. I said "you need to study more". He said all was well. His history glade slipped...badly. He was SHOCKED! But, he learned....fool around and you'll see the result in black and white.

I agree that they need to experience the slips....see the results of their actions. But, SAT is not the time for experiments.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Pokey
I was just thinking about the friday evening plans. The crazy thing that at D high school it is the homecoming game tonight and tomorrow the dance. She is not going to either but most of her friends are. So most of her friends will be getting their hair done while she is taking the SAT.
I know she wants to go to a movie tonight. I am going to suggest an early evening but I know I will get some complaints from her.
Last June against my better judgement she did not study at all for the SAT in history and was going to retake the math. She went to hear a friends band play the night before. Those are 2 scores that she is not to proud of. So in Nov she will have to retake the History. The math she had a strong score the first time so she will have to go with that. But she will have to live with the 2nd math score being almost 100 points lower then the one 6 months earlier.
Momsdream- from your various posts your son and my D have similar personalities. My D also in some ways is very mature and in others very immature.
I can tell you that Monday we will make up a new calendar and map out some time to prep for the Sats in writing and history. I found that that was the best way to get it done. She complains but I know with the Sat she was thrilled when her scores on the 10 real Sat's began to jump. And I know she would not have done half the ammount on her own.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Mom60-

Best of luck to your D on her upcoming SATs. I guess the kids who are a little more "idealistic" about their testing are in for a rude awakening. I firmly believe that "our kids" will eventuually realize that they, too, have hurdles for which they have to prepare. Like your D, my S is mature in many ways, but immature in others. Though, he's totally ok with himself, which is most important. Isn't it thrilling when they "release" the pressure and begin to "jump" over their accomplishments? Maybe, just maybe, these are the kids who aren't quite confident in their own abilities and need a little prodding to say "yes, you CAN do this"...and they're thrilled when they realize that they can.

I suppose this is part of helping children realize their fullest potential!

By Kinshasa (Kinshasa) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Momsdream, has your S tried the ACT? My S scored above average but not spectacularly well on the SAT; he took it twice. He also took the ACT and his score was comparable to the SAT. His SATIIs were good but also not over-the-moon.
Because you can request that ACT send one specific testing date only, he retook the ACT and scored much higher than his comparable SAT scores. His ED school will see only that one excellent ACT.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Kinshasa-

I've never really considered the ACT as an alternative. Son never mentioned it and school never emphasized it. UGH....I'm nervous about adding another test date for him..as he's going to start Nov at SAT #5 (I and II). Enough is enough, KWIM? Can he have a little fun in second semester??

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:01 pm: Edit

{{Momsdream}}

I agree with you that the SAT is not the greatest indicator of success in college. I also think it is very possible for very bright high achieving kids not do that great on the SAT or not as great as you might think they would.

As far as your son doing the app and not the prep for tomorrow's SAT2...I do understand your point that you were making to him that the priority this week was the upcoming test. Unfortunately he came out of his room pepped up that he had done an application and of course that is great but not the order you would have suggested he did things. It can be frustrating. But I can see the scenario that here he was proud he got something done but it was not what you expected. But forget that now (and hey, he has an app done!).


As far as the SAT2 LIT test....first of all, the fact that his school did not prepare him does not mean much to me because welcome to the world of lots of kids, as our school does not address any of these tests in school. So, he is on equal footing there. I would not worry too much in regard to this specific SATII because it is not something you truly "study", but more based on years of literature study and comprehension and so forth. You don't learn that by studying in one week. It is different than the math test in that way. This is a test that I think he would do similarly on whether or not had had studied a real lot first. What he ideally should do is take a few practice tests to get the idea of what it is like, plus read any hints in the practice book. The concepts themselves are learned over years of English, however. My older one did not take that test but my younger one did last May. The only prep she did was to browse the SATII book and took two practice tests. I'd say about three hours of prep total was spent, more for familiarity with the test. I realize all kids are different but she did very well on this test. I think your son will be fine. He eventually took this one practice test later today and HE said he felt ok with it so just relax for now on this one. His admissions is not riding on one single SAT2. I have a feeling he will do well because his verbal is his strength on the testing to date.

I also think he sounds like a very qualified candidate for college and that is without his URM status.

And yes, of course, in this situation, it is not one of those times you let the kid fail and learn his lesson ("see, what did I tell you, you should have done X or Y to get ready")...so you are not going to do the sink or swim lesson. It is reasonable that you meet with your child and set up a plan and not leave the kid to chance on such an important matter.

It sounds like things overall in your house are on target and it just is a stressful time and just know that you have done ok and at this point, just tell him good luck. It is the 11th hour, nothing more to do. I think he is going to be fine.

Susan

By Dadx (Dadx) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit

I'm glad I'm finished for another six years.

The OP is too close to home.

By Sac (Sac) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 12:43 am: Edit

Good luck to your son! He's done what he's done. He'll have lots of great choices.

My daughter, by the way, went into SAT IIs thinking she'd take one in chemistry. During the break, she talked to friends who were in AP Chemistry (she was not) and who told her how hard the test was. So, she went back in and asked for English Lit., never having seen it let alone studied for it. She did ok. In fact, all her tests were ok, not spectacular. Yet, she did really well in college (UCLA), right from the start. She's one of those kids whose test scores just didn't correlate with her performance in school. My son was a natural born test taker. They are both bright kids, like your son. I know how smart they are, and the difference in their test scores means absolutely nothing except that one is a confident test taker and the other is not. Your son, whatever he scores,will get into wonderful schools based on his course load, grades, and interests. Once in college, whatever he scored, he'll do just fine.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 01:01 am: Edit

My conversation with one of my sons:

ME "Did you put the garbage cans out--it's garbage day?"

KID "I will, I will. Always nagging me."

ME "Just get those garbage cans out."

Several hours later:

ME "The garbage truck has come and gone, and you did not put the garbage out to the curb. When I tell you to put the garbage out, you put it out immediately. (more raving and ranting)

KID "ok, ok, ok"

An hour or so later:

ME: Why are the garbage cans out when the garbage has been picked up hours ago?"

KID "You said you wanted the garbage out immediately--you are driving me crazy. (raving and ranting)

We never did get to the SAT studying.

Seriously, the night before the SAT is really too late to be studying it. If you have a recalitrant student as I do with my boys, you will get more results if you schedule study time, and then sit down with him and work with him. If you don't have a tutor for this type of a kid, you have to be the tutor. You need to go over the test book and decide what he is going to study for each session. Otherwise, you risk having him sit there and flip pages or just randomly study in a scattered matter. What you need to do is make him take the test. Then correct the test, and go over the incorrect answers with him. Then in another session give him the same test again. It has taken me 5 sessions with the same test before it sinks through my knuckleheads. After the first couple of test, though, it gets a lot easier even for the most disinterested kid, as they realize that it is more boring taking the same test repeatedly. Nagging and arguing with some type of kids is not going to get them to study or focus on studying. If it is important and they are too scattered to focus on a test, you may have to step in. I have had to do this many times. That is why many people hire tutors. But if you cannot find one or cannot afford one, you have to roll up your own sleeves and start shoveling. Good luck!

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 01:03 am: Edit

Did you at least get your garbage picked up that day?

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 04:44 am: Edit

LOL Jami...yes, he took the garbage out on time. But, we've also been in the situation you describe....garbage truck passing our home while the cans rest on the side of the house. ON the last occasion of that happening, I told son that any missed garbage would have to be taken to the city dump...in HIS car. That ended that

On the topic of tutors, I would have never considered hiring a tutor for Lit.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:27 am: Edit

This has nothing to do with the sats or college but is just a sample of how I am losing my memory( and my mind).
I have both girls at home this year, which I am still getting used to ( 14 and 22) The 14 yr old is and has been even touchier than most.
I had been washing her clothes but had to add a pair of her sisters jeans to make a full load.
D-14 requested a pair of jeans before the rest were dry so I pulled one pair out of wash and threw them in with her tee/shirts. Upon bringing them upstairs for her, she insisted that the jeans were not hers. They were identical to teh ones she had on and I insisted that they had to be, who elses would they be? ( she is a size one and I am like a 10 if I suck my stomach in)
She replied there not hers again and threw them at me. I threw them back and said I didn't want to hear anything else so ridiculous!
She threw them back out and slammed her door.
I remembered that her sister was downstairs and I went down to complain with the jeans in my hand.
She says "oh there they are"! Of all the jeans that were in the wash I just happened to grab her sisters, and while they certainly werent size 1s were still small enough that I assumed they were the 14 yr old.
How embarrasing. I felt ghastly and this was right after I had made yet another pledge to be more positive.
( I hope I made up for it though, I took her and her best friend shopping at the mall in which there are zero bookstores that you can access from the inside- must be 30 shoe stores however)

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

Shopping will always cure a 14 year old girl!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

Jamimom, loved reading your vignette. While I do not have that problem regarding SATs or college applications with my 16 year old, she is like your son in those other ways described in the vignette about the garbage. If asked to do something, she says she will "later" and almost 100% of the time forgets, just like in your anecdote. I have to be tough and say you have to do whatever it is while it is on our minds because otherwise it will never happen. (Or else it is on my mind to not forget). She also is disorganized with her "stuff" and loses things daily and all that kind of thing. I sometimes think of you because I have to "train" her to use strategies to not have these things happen each day and I have to make her do things when told plus learn how to deal with "stuff" so you know where it is and so forth, because next year she will be on her own. About a week ago, she lost a brand new jacket four times in a row in one week, though it has been located. If that were the only thing, we would be in good shape but it isn't. But the "do this now instead of later because it will never happen otherwise" is a daily thing with her like your son!

Susan

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:29 am: Edit

I "reminded" my senior multiple times to sign up for her last SAT II only to be "reminded" to butt out, it will get it done. So today she is still in bed because it did not get done.

By Anxiousmom (Anxiousmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:31 am: Edit

It might be time to have the 14-year-old and 22-year-old do their own laundry? (LOL) I got tired of trying to figure out whose socks were whose when my kids were about 12 yrs and 8yrs, and taught them how to do their own laundry. (How hard is it? Check the pockets, throw them in, add detergent, push button.) It sure made my life easier - no Mom to blame if the shirt shrinks. My son, now 15, washes all clothes, all colors together. Daughter sorts by color. I have one less thing to do!

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:42 am: Edit

the 22 actually does her own laundry and mostly the 14 year old does but when I notice that my husbands pile is growing out of the closet door he is going to take over the washing for a while so I want to get the 14 yr old clothes washed as a precaution
what we need is a schedule but hard to get this family on any schedule. We are still getting used to school and soccer starting!

I agree that it is good for everyone to do own laundry, I thought it was wierd that when my nieces were in high school they weren't trusted to know to seperate colors but they could drive a sports car. It would have saved her a lot of stress if she had her four kids ( now almost 5) do thier own laundry.

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Emeraldkity4, What a great story lol. You are a great mom, any mom that can laugh at herself and share such a funny story is setting a wonderful example for her kids!

By Momof2inca (Momof2inca) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Momsdream,
I laughed! Our sons are similar. What needs to happen for one child to be a success is not what needs to happen for another. Some might call this nagging, some might call it setting expectations and priorities. My son is incredibly smart but not good with details and paperwork. He would postpone that kind of stuff forever if he could. He's the classic absent-minded professor kid in desperate need of a personal assistant. I eased myself out of that position years ago, but now he needs help and doesn't really even know it.

You also said, "But, the SATs are not a time for "life's lessons" in responsibility, especially for a kid who has the talent to perform."

I agree. These are high-stakes tests with significant consequences, including financial. It's a tough situation because for parents this senior year is simultaneously about backing off and managing our kids. I know that my son has worked a long time, and overcome many obstacles, to get to a point where he can apply to the top colleges. It's like a sports team that has worked for years to reach an elite level of play, you don't want little slip-ups or a loss of focus to blow the game. A coach wouldn't let the team stay out late or miss practice before the big game, as much as the players might think they could handle it. The coach knows better and sets limits. Some parents need to be like that with SOME kids. Others are just fine doing their own thing.

But at least your son is working on applications! My S just finished with his last SAT (USHistory) today, but has only done one essay for his 8 schools. I just sat down with him and added up all the essays he will need to write. I think there's 11 (and this does account for the duplicates on the Common App and the UC app). Sigh.

We are running out of weekends. Next weekend we fly back east for a week of college touring, returning home late the following Saturday. If he wants to apply EA anywhere (is waiting to decide after he visits) he will have no more weekends to work on the application!

He is heading into the busiest time of the year, with debate tournaments, political ECs and a hard senior load. Fall Quarter ends this week with lots of tests and projects due. Add in the college apps, a reluctance to be introspective and an aversion to marketing himself... and I'm getting anxious.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Momsdream and others.

Didn't you love Jamimom's term: 'recalcitrant student'? So elegant, isn't it? But the reality of recalcitrant students--(and lucky you if you don't have one of these Northstarmom)--is that they REQUIRE some nagging. After eighteen years of sheparding two recalcitrant students, I find 'nagging' comments jumping out of my mouth.

My winner was (delivered after S returned from GAP year doing things I NEVER could have done at 17/18): "Don't hit the brick pier on the way out of the carport!"

His response: "Have I EVER hit the brick pier?"

Whoops. No. But H did climb over the fence at elementary school dozens of times to retrieve forgotten essentials etc etc. Oh yeah, we were best friends with the cleaning crew.

You all are sure to disagree, but I think the best cure for this situation is sending the recalcitrant student to a college that is far enough away from home that weekend visits are unlikely.

Why? Because they must bump into the walls and learn without us and we don't want to watch all the details of that movie. I don't anyway.

SEcondly, our effectiveness as parents drops significantly by the time the child turns 18. If we haven't gotten it in there by 18....well, rotsa ruck. Parents need the distance to re-program their brains, IMHO.

By Momof2inca (Momof2inca) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 05:36 pm: Edit

"You all are sure to disagree, but I think the best cure for this situation is sending the recalcitrant student to a college that is far enough away from home that weekend visits are unlikely. Why? Because they must bump into the walls and learn without us and we don't want to watch all the details of that movie. I don't anyway."

Completely agree! S is applying to schools on the East Coast with our enthusiastic blessing! And you can bet that I will not be helping him get organized with grad school applications in four years. This year is all about working myself out of a coaching job and becoming more of his fan... like Momsdream, we're just not quite there yet.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 05:52 pm: Edit

" But the reality of recalcitrant students--(and lucky you if you don't have one of these Northstarmom)--is that they REQUIRE some nagging. After eighteen years of sheparding two recalcitrant students,"

My sons both had high test scores and low grades compared to their test scores. Momsdreams' son appears to have the whole package: good test scores, good grades and amazing ECs.

That's why I don't think her nagging is necessary. I think her kid really does have the full package, and she tends to focus on things that to me are nit picky.

Her son is unlikely to bomb a test like the SAT II. His doing an application so far in advance of the deadline is admirable. I understand that's not where his mom would have preferred that he put his efforts this week, but I think it's fabulous that he finished an application.

Considering that the test was the Eng. Literature test, and he seems to be a well read kid, I also don't think he needed to put lots of effort into studying for that test. In the long run, my belief is it's probably far better than he got his application done early, leaving lots of time for editing, than that he put extra time into a test that in his case, I don't think will matter that much anyway.

Adding to all of this, Momsdream has posted previously that her son will not need aid to go to the college of his choice, including to very expensive colleges.He is in a wonderful situation when it comes to colleges. My thoughts are that come spring, his problem will be deciding among a variety of wonderful colleges.

The only thing that would prevent this would be if he doesn't complete his applications or if he does them in an extremely sloppy way such as sending in essays that are dashed off 5 minutes before mailing and are filled with typos and profanity.

Meanwhile, in my case, since I learned long ago that my S will not study on his own for standardized testing, I am paying for tutoring for his upcoming PSAT. The only reason I am bothering is that this will help him optimize his standardized testing strengths, something that might help him a great deal particularly since his gpa isn't that great.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Northstarmom--there is the possibility that Momsdream is a better nagger than us?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:18 pm: Edit

LOL. Buying a plane ticket for S to visit Momsdream.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:21 pm: Edit

"Why? Because they must bump into the walls and learn without us and we don't want to watch all the details of that movie. I don't anyway."

Amen. It's not so much I don't want to but just really no longer have the energy and consider myself, hopefully, semi-retired from child rearing. Are we ever completely retired? Of course we are still here and always will be if they actually express a desire for advice or help. Like those lost credit cards, etc. LOL

By Garland (Garland) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:29 pm: Edit

I agree with the point that high stakes testing is not the place to teach a life lesson. Actually, I did they actual signing up for tests (they picked the dates) to make sure they happened.

OTOH, both my kids were not about to study for these standardized tests. They felt that the point of them was to show what you've learned, and did not feel that much real learning would come out of this kind of "studying". I did get my son a few test books for the SAT 2s, but I was not going to over-stress him about cramming or not; he could live with the scores he got. He felt that his schoolwork, his extra-curricular stuff, and yes, his free time, were more important. The things I nagged him on during senior year was getting the applications done in a timely fashion, and keeping his grades up.

The result was his SAT 2s were uneven--and this did not affect his acceptances. I suspect their importance is over-rated.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:45 pm: Edit

I think it I hadn't signed her up for the test dates she would have probably gone with her first test scores or done what several kids we know of who waited to the last minute to sign up and had to drive 2 hours to a test site.
What annoys my D is that this score will probably be higher but in reality she is no smarter then she was back in April. She is just better at taking the test.
I will have to nag her on her apps. Or her essays will get done at the last minute. She is a good writer and fairly quick and sees no reason that she needs to get started. In her words No one else has started any apps yet. But most of them are applying only to the UC's.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Momsdream, are you taking any more recalcitrant students?

LOL, just kidding. I'll stick to semi-decent emotional health and second and third tier universities in great cities. Mind you, that scenario includes a fair amount of nagging.

By Ella05 (Ella05) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 07:24 pm: Edit

On the subject of "nagging"...

Momsdream, you sound a lot like my mom. I'm about in your son's boat (aren't we all?) and as much as I rail against earlier curfews, required studying and the general vacuum of fun I'm currently living in, I know that come April I will thank my mom. And probably keep thanking her for years to come. The support and encouragment and even the "nagging" of our parents is truly invaluable. It reminds us where our priorities lie, that we have support and sometimes even shames us recalcitrant students into working that much harder. I don't know what my scores would be like without my mom's reminders. Perhaps they would be the same, but even so, I wouldn't like to chance it. Thanks to the moms and dads of all us college seniors- you'll be hearing that personally in just a few more months.

By Momof2inca (Momof2inca) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Awww, thanks Ella05! That was nice of you to post.

By Musicmom (Musicmom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Ahhhhh, such memories!

One year ago, last night, at our house, 10 pm...

Senior son on way out the door:
I'm going out for a bit, shouldn't be late.
Me:
SAT is 8 am tomorrow.....sleep would be good.
SS:
No problem, home by 12, OK?
Me:
Do you at least have all your stuff, admission
card, pencils, calculator?
SS:
I'll have plenty of time in the morning to get
that stuff together, Mom.
Me:
Will you at least FIND your calculator and put
new batteries in it? For dear old Mom?
SS:
Sure, Mom. (After futile frantic 15 min
search) Uhhhh, I remember now. I loaned my
calculator to Jeff yesterday in the library
at school.
Me:
He still has it?
SS:
No problem, Mom. I'll call him and have him
bring it to the SAT test center in the
morning.
Me:
You mean, find Jeff in the sea of kids at 8 am?
SS:
Trust me, Mom, it will NOT be a problem.

Well, fortunately, Son aspirations for college admission did not require sterling math SAT scores since he of course did not locate Jeff and the vacationing calculator.
Result: lopsided SAT scores with verbal winning
by a mile.

Sigh. It is very hard for me as a parent to let go and let them make their own mistakes. But the wonderful part is that, once in college, that difficulty mostly resolves itself.

Miraculously, our Son now seems to revel in his freedom and responsibilities. Papers are written, a campus job found, laundry managed.
It is wonderful to see!

So, hang in there parents! The application process can be very stressful (it was for us). But you might enjoy your newly matured 'child' come next year.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Remember the post of the Mom who lost her marbles because S lent his calculator to a friend on the day of SAT? We all congratulated her on producing a S with such a big heart (but no sense--or so we thought).

Turned out he got an 800 anyway.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Thanks Ella. Best of luck to you!

No, not taking any recalcitrant teens...lol. I don't think I have one myself.....just one that's still in the "goofy and distracted" phase.

Pokey and Emerald, my 6 year old is losing her two front, top teeth....and she's oh so excited. So, today she wanted to go shopping for an outfit because of the tooth situation. I have never been a shopper, so this is new to me. But, seems like I, too, have a daughter who is cured by a trip to the mall....and LOVES Oilily....

Momof2, I'm with you on the sports situation......yikes, hadn't thought about that! I'm not sure when basketball season begins. But, I think son starts practicing mid Nov. After that, forget it.... And, you're right, there are only a finite number of weekends in the fall available for testing, sports, meetings, patying, studying, homework, visiting, etc

Cheers, I agree that sending them far away sounds like a good idea. Obviously, we're not following that rule over here....as son has applied ED to a school 15 minutes away. But, I don't believe he factored distance from home into the decision model.....as his #2 choice is 14 hours away by car.

NSM, though I feel that I don't want money to drive son's choices, I also WOULD qualify for aid....I think. I've worked the figures based on various calculators and have gotten responses everywhere from $3k to $25k in aid. I called one school's fin aid office and asked for their recommendation because I needed a realistic ballpark. They sent me to the collegeboard calculator as being the closest to theirs. I was satisfied with the results...but I got what I would consider to be a fair amount aid. Son is also trying for outside scholarships...you know the emails that circulate "black scholarships aren't being claimed!".....we'll see.

Garland, your kids sound bright and assured. The decision to not study for the SAT is a personal one. Last April, my son came to me to ask for tutor. He said "everyone has one", as though it was trendy to hire SAT help. In the long run, it helped quite a bit. You should have seen him when his second set of scores arrived, reflecting the huge leap. He was in a state of euphoria for a couple of days. Ask him today and he can't quote the score. He'll say "my scores are good"...as he did when one Adcom asked him about his scores when meeting him. I could see the adcom grinning nervously, probably thinking that son didn't want to disclose a mediocre score. Would he have considered that son had no idea what he scored and really thought that " they're good" was enough to say?

Mom60, about the "nobody started yet" comment from your D, that sounds sooo common! My son pulled the "everyone does their essay over Christmas break"....and thought he had a foolproof plan to not start the process until Dec 17. HA!!

I guess this is all about the rhythm for them....getting things moving and finding a comfortable pace.

Son picked out his pictures today (the ones that go on the apps)...a different picture for each school, just about. We scanned them into the computer and edited them down to size. While I favored the pics where he's dressed in a nice tux, smiling gently and looking angelic...he favors more "risky" shots....of him dressed in a "wife-beater" tank and basketball shorts, flexing muscles and making that horrible grunt face....lol...his choice.....

Did everyone else's student select the pics yet? If so, what sort of pics are they? Do they try to convey personality?

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:11 am: Edit

Musicmom-

Didn't it just amaze you that he hadn't even thought to secure his calculator before the test?...same here.

How about this:
test starts at 8:15
son calls at 8 from car - wrong turn...needing directions
I get him back on track and remind him that the test starts at 8:15
He says "what!! they changed it?"
I was said "no, it was 8:15 before"
He thought it started at 8:30....never checked.
Luckliy, he was early and had enough time....time to go find pencils once he arrived, because he had none.

As The Seniors Turn....

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:12 am: Edit

Several of us have children at college "down the street" so to speak. I'd be interested in hearing from others whether they think this is an issue. So far for us it hasn't really been (he has seemed to melt right into the campus and, LOL, says the laundry machines in the dorms are "awesome"--free, and bigger and easier to use than ours at home!--so that the one incentive I thought would bring him home, hasn't at all!). Interestingly enough, my son has just signed to play summer ball on the other side of the country, so he will get a bit of the advantages of being far away in just a few months from now.

The thing that I find disconcerting is that half the people/parents you talk to say "Don't let them come home until Thanksgiving!" and the other half say "Have your student and all their buddies over for Sunday dinner!"--I'd be interested to hear the voices of experience here on this issue. Not that I think my son would ever get around to inviting anyone even if we offered....

By Musicmom (Musicmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:36 am: Edit

Patient-

Your post applies to our family, I guess.
Our son is about 75 minutes away, 'down the street' compared to many of his friends.

We thought the distance was just fine. Far enough so he felt the need to step up and handle his own life but not too far for parental intervention in serious situations.

Of course, I THOUGHT perhaps we'd see him stop in some weekends here and there. He's our first away and it's been a transition for us.

Happily, he loves the whole 'living away' thing and his school in general. He's not come home since the long Labor Day WE and won't till Thanksgiving I bet.
We miss him but are thrilled he is so immersed in stuff at school and happy with the WE campus scene also. He also has a campus job on WE's playing in pep band for football games so that's another excuse for him not to come visit!

Yes, our S's school also has those FREE large washers and dryers!
I'll be interested to hear others' thoughts on this.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:40 am: Edit

Something that concerns me a little is how son will feel if and when he moves into a dorm 15 minutes away, while his friends all pack up and fan out across the country.

Is there any sense of being "left behind" for the kids who remain local?

By Sybbie719 (Sybbie719) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 09:09 am: Edit

Momsdream,


Everyone in your house can take a collective sigh of relief now that the test is behind you. Now you will just wear out shows pacing until the early scores are available from the college board.

During senior year I cut my hair really short, while I liked the outcome, some of my friends could not believe that I would give up my hair on one fell swoop. My answer- now there is less hair to pull out.

Some of the same conversations happened in my house and I equated it to taching a pig to dance -Waste of time and upsets the pig.

Your son is more on top of things than you think. My hat is off to him for getting the applications finished, because we were one of those people who had the computer crash on December 29 and after hours on the phone with technical support, I went to work to pick up my laptop to send the application (D-emailed copies of everthing to my work e-mail as a back up). I think they take great joy in talking about how much we are bugging (nagging, nudging)them during the process. I can attest to the fact that you will be thanked profusely once the acceptance letters come in and like childbirth, you will forget the pain as this too will pass. When your son is at the top of his game, you will laugh about all of this because you knew he had it in him. You will have a new found respect for your sense of humor or you will really learn to develop one. Don't worry the dance of joy is coming

Reagarding them not coming home until Thanksgiving. Daughter just started classes on the 23rd so she really hasn't been in school that long. They do not have a break until thanksgiving. She is okay with it. However she is the original friend of the friendless and beleives that she must bring people home for Thanksgiving, so it will be one big sleepover and Ilook forward to having plenty of people to walk the dog.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

Sybbie, I love the analogy of forgetting the pain it took to get to the joy...with childbirth!! lol...

I agree that the whole stressful mess of the college application process is difficult but there is a great light at the end of the tunnel and for those of us with kids in their freshman year who are very happy now, it was all worth it.Ya just gotta hang in there and know that this is something that will be over pretty soon and it does end with a lot of delight. I'm in the throes of it again with my second child and I do wonder how she will ever get it all done but I know it will happen and hopefully next spring will involve a lot of happy moments. At least with this stress, there IS an end to it.

Susan

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit

Momsdream to answer your question, I am sure the answer is "it depends"--on the kid, on the school, on whether others are also staying relatively close. I haven't noticed anything one way or the other (what is harder is that the schools all start at such different times and the ones who haven't left, whether near or far, did begin to feel a bit at loose ends). I would bet that it also depends on whether the school was the first choice--if it was, then they have probably pretty much resolved the issue of whether they will feel left behind.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:29 am: Edit

For my son, it'll probably depend a lot on where the GF ends up...if they're still together then. She's currently evaluating an ED decision between two schools....of of which is Wharton. On one hand, I hope they both get in and can continue their relationship. On the other hand, I worry that the relationship will hinder his social growth in college if they're both at the same school.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:38 am: Edit

I would WAY worry about that. On the other hand, I wouldn't interfere one way or the other--being a firm believer that with relationships, whatever is meant to be, will be....

By Pattykk (Pattykk) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

My daughter took the Writing and Literature SAT II's yesterday and was surprised at how difficult the Literature test was. 90% of the passages were from the 1600's; the one modern selection was a fairly avantgarde poem. She thinks she did all right, but she said it was a workout.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Momsdream,
I am curious about why you're hoping your S's relationship with his GF will continue in college.

From what I have seen, most people change so much during the years from 14-22, including discovering new interests and capabilities, that they rarely are compatible as adults with their high school loves. I also have seen instances in which college students, in a quest to remain compatible with their high school loves, avoid trying new things or meeting new people, and therefore don't obtain from college the growth that they might have.

From what you have posted, seems like you have similar concerns. Have you considered not allowing him to apply ED so he can have more options?

Also, it's not unusual for high school romances to end spring of senior year. Students who then are stuck going to a college that their ex will attend then can feel very upset. This particularly may be true if they see their peers flying off to options that seem more exciting than going to college down the street (even though that college is an Ivy).

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:41 pm: Edit

All you say is true, NSM. But these are big schools and in fact kids who end relationships for the most part manage to stay civil at the least, and friends at best. That is certainly what I have seen in my children's lives. The same issues have to be resolved in high school when breakups occur, and in college when romances that begin in college, end there too. You deal with it.

I cannot IMAGINE telling my child where they are or are not allowed to apply ED, other than for financial reasons. Discussing your concerns with them, yes. But legislating the next 4 years of their lives? No.

By Elizabeth22 (Elizabeth22) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Momsdream-

I'm echoing everyone else on this one. Leave the poor kid alone. I never cracked a book for Literature and I came out of it with a 750. Granted, the retake I took yesterday was much tougher than the June test, but still doable. You've got to let your son have some control over his own study habits, or he won't be able to do it when he goes off to college. Were you the one who posted because he lent his calculator to a friend for SATs this spring, or was that someone else?

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:57 pm: Edit

NSM-

That's the "indulgent" mom in me...not wanting to see him go through a breakup. I'm only talking about personal feelings, not how I conduct the business of helping him evaluate options for college. There are pros and cons to each side...staying together or breaking up. I don't think about it much, really. But, when I allow myself to think about it, I realize that there are probably many, many other parents worrying about the exact same thing....and it'll work itself out.

No, I haven't considered not allowing him to apply ED. I don't think I would want to insert myself that much....she very well may end up on the West Coast via another ED option. I trust that both kids are making their decisions independent of the relationship. Aside from Penn, they have no other common schools on their respective radars.....not even one of son's top choices where his GF is a double legacy, but won't apply.

In this case, these chips will fall where they may.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

That wasn't me Elizabeth. Another poster had the son with the loaned out calculator.

I'm not encouraged when students post their scores and act as though everyone will score well because they did. It's helpful to realize that ALL kids are different, and in need of various types of support. Congrats on your achievement.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Patient,

I agree in (with the exception of reasons because of financial concerns) not legislating where a kid can go to school.

However, when it comes to a decision like ED, I think that a parent really should step in because an ED acceptance means that the student has to go there. If a parent has any concerns about a student's possibly changing their mind or about a student's not yet fully thinking through the consequences of their decision, I think a parent should step in.

There's lots of emotional growth that occurs between fall and spring of senior year, not to mention the various changes that can occur in things like romantic relationships.

To me, unless a student is rock solid committed to their ED school, and has shown the emotional ability to make a thoughtful commitment, and unless the parent has no doubts about the ED school's suitability (including financially), then the parent should not allow the student to apply ED.

It is a huge commitment that would keep the student from having other options. Should spring come and the student change their mind, the student will be stuck. That's a lot different from having the student have several options to consider in April.

From what I have seen, too, students learn a lot about their own preferences from seeing how their peers choose among options. Students with ED commitments miss out on that opportunity.

In the case of Momsdream's son, too, he has so much going for him, that he probably doesn't need any perceived advantage of an ED tip.

BTW, there was an infamous case on CC about a year ago of a Philadelphia-area student who got an ED accept to, I think, Haverford and then wanted to change his mind.

When he saw where his peers were getting accepted to, he decided that he probably could do better than Haverford, and he wanted to try to do so. He was not happy to learn that with the exception of real emergency situations (unlikely if one has gotten a local ED), he would have to go to his ED college.

By Elizabeth22 (Elizabeth22) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:17 pm: Edit

My intent was not to imply that all kids can pull a 750 without prep, nor to imply that it's an easy test. I was just trying to say that studying isn't always neccessary. I was just saying that what he knows may well be enough, and that pushing him to study more will probably accomplish very little. Call me stubborn, but the more my parents nag, the less likely I am to do what they ask. I assumed that since he chose Literature over another test, his powers of explication are fairly well developed. Literature isn't really a test you can study for anyway- you either know what the poem or prose is talking about, or you don't. There are very, very few difficult terms on it- yesterday's had more terminology than June's, but still only extended as far as alliteration, hyperbole, etc. They're not throwing in chiasmus, metonymy, or even anaphora.

Good Luck to your son.

By Helicoptermom (Helicoptermom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Momsdream--

It sounds as if you have done an absolutely wonderful job with your son, and I'm sure that your worrying and staying on top of things has been a big factor in why he's turning out so well. But I agree with other posters that it's time to start turning much more of the responsibility for his work over to him, even if he makes the occasional mistake.

I have a freshman in college now, and as you can see from my screen name, I've been pretty involved in her life, worrying and hovering over her. But from the moment students get to college (unless they're commuting from home), they're completely responsible for their own workload: no curfews, no phone calls home from the school if kids cut class or miss a deadline, no one watching to see how they're managing their time. This is on top of more distractions--more fascinating people to meet and things to do--than they've ever encountered in their lives.

The culture shock is huge, and it's better to prepare them for it gradually by letting them set at least some of their own priorities while they're still under your roof.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:18 pm: Edit

NSM, I understand and agree with what you're saying but I just stop short of not letting a kid apply ED. Explaining the cautions, including the stories about kids who regretted their decision, etc., yes. But again, I think there is the possibility of a really harmful result: the kid really wants to apply ED, the parent "persuades" him/her not to, the kid applies RD, still unwavering in his choice, doesn't get in. He/she and parent too might be forever haunted by the "what if". That was just my thinking.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 03:05 pm: Edit

In my son's case, he is/was a well informed ED applicant, in terms of the down-side to making an early committment. He thought long and hard about the choice and reached a decision that felt right for him...after attednign 3 differently geared info sessions, completing an overnight, hanging out on campus, attending classes and communicating with professors....over a 14 month period. He didn't apply ED for the purposes of a tip. I don't think he's aware that ED is a tip, as his school tends to focus on helping students figure out where to go, not how to get in. His ED choice was based on the fact that he isn't nearly as committed to the other schools on his list....and his #2 choice has fluctuated across 3 different schools in the last month...while his ED choice remained the clear winner.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Momsdream- my D also assumed the test started at 8:30. She didn't see why she needed to get everything together the night before when she had plenty of time in the morning. She did layout her pencils and calculator before going to bed. But she wasn't going to bring a extra set of batteries. She didn't need them. I told her just humor me and bring them just in case.
She also felt no need to give herself plenty of time to get to the testsite. These things just don't stress her out. We fortunately live in a town where except for Friday and Sunday afternoon it is pretty much 15 minutes to anywhere.
I didn't know that you included a picture with your apps. Shows how much we have looked at the applications.
Her counselors have no idea where any of their students are applying. So they are totally on there own unless the parents hire an outside counselor. So it is the Mom who has to do all the nagging. A friend of mine this time around(it's her third) hired a counselor just to preserve the family harmony.
What did your son think of the test? My d felt pretty confident and thrilled that it will be her last SAT. I think she is forgetting those 2 SAT 2's she is taking next month. She is not going to be happy with me when I pull out the next study calendar.
What does the Lit. test consist of? I am thinking that it might be easier then studying for the history. Does it require having read certain literature. She skipped American Lit. last year and took a combo mythology and philosophy course instead.

By Momofonly (Momofonly) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:50 pm: Edit

My daughter set her alarm for 6:30 yesterday to take the SAT, showered, got dressed, ate breakfast, walked out the door and said "bye." Luckily I was able to run out and catch her to give her the admission ticket, her calculator and her pencils.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Momofonly-
That's funny....in a "typical senior behavior" sort of way.

Mom60-I am not sure that most schools request pictures. But, the few son has worked on have asked for one.

Son said that Lit was "okay" and he felt very good about the Math. But, a curvey of his peers suggests that this Lit SAT was harder than those in months past (for those re-taking it) He's got one test date left, in Nov, like your D....for a final SATI...with a hope of improving math. But, that was his choice...as the suggestion of his GC. The Lit test, from what he told me, consisted of reading passages, poems, etc and answering questions about how you interpret them. It's harder to master "the test" on the Lit test than the others because you can't use some of the SAT strategy...such as asnwering all of the easier questions in all sctions before returning to do the hard questions in all sections....You have to go section by section, working all questions in that section, or else you'll forget the passage. But, at least you know there are only but so many terms to undersatnd.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Momofonly...love your daughter.

By Momofonly (Momofonly) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Momsdream and Patient,

It's so nice to have this forum to share our frustrations! A friend of mine told me the other day that she thinks her daughter puts more thought into buying a pair of jeans than into which colleges she will be applying! I'm starting to wonder if that old saying is right...that college is wasted on the young. By the way, my daughter applied to 7 colleges and didn't have to send any pictures to any of them.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

MomofOnly wrote:
"A friend of mine told me the other day that she thinks her daughter puts more thought into buying a pair of jeans than into which colleges she will be applying!"

And on the flip side of that, although my D has put alot of thought into where she is applying....yesterday, she spent a full hour in a store trying to select a new watch that she was getting as a birthday present from a relative and she could not make up her mind and she commented "if I can't decide on a watch, how will I ever decide which college to attend?"

Also your vignette about your daughter leaving without the requisite items for the SATS....last June, my 15 year old went to take three SAT2s at the nearest testing site which is 25 miles away. I made her get it all ready the night before (or so I thought) and her dad drove to drop her off. As soon as he had dropped her off and left, she calls me on her cell from the test site that her driver's permit (photo ID) was not in her wallet where she is supposed to keep it (typical of her) and she did not have it with her and it was at home. She asked if I could bring it. I mean we live 30 minutes from that school! She led me to believe that they would not let her in without the photo ID. I never drove so fast....I got there and not a kid was in sight. They had all entered the test rooms I guess and I did not see my daughter in the lobby. I ran into an adult and said I had my D's photo ID which she called to say she had to show to get in and I was told that all the kids had entered into the testing and that they had let her in anyway. So, I drove there for nothing...had to drive home and come back later to get her at the end. It really was a typical thing with her. I had made she sure had the admissions ticket, pencils, calculator and batteries but assumed her driving permit was in her wallet but that was naive on my part (if you knew this kid).

Susan

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Carrying the analogy a bit further-- in fact, if they can't buy their favorite pair of jeans because they're too expensive or don't fit, they'll end up having just as much fun in another pair...get it?

By Momof2inca (Momof2inca) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit

Ah, yes... the son that loaned the calculator on the day of the SAT. That was mine. Sigh. Seems like just yesterday that I was stressing out over that one. It worked out fine though. I learned a lesson, too. Guess I need to remember that and keep the faith during all this trip preparation and application anxiety. This too shall pass!

By Momofonly (Momofonly) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit

Susan-

That is so funny and I can definitely imagine that happening...I would have assumed like you did that she had the driver's permit in her wallet. Maybe the moral should be "assume nothing?"

Patient-

GREAT analogy...I will pass it on to my friend to make her feel better the next time her daughter says to her "this school looks fine."