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Is the college application process generally a fair one? I felt relieved when I read awhile ago that "having connections" does not help in the college admissions process. However, recently I have been hearing about students that are planning to use their connections to assist them in the process. Was I being naive?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Burlinz, you and me both. My eyes have been widened as to the behind the scenes stuff. My kids certainly had nobody pulling
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By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Yikes, my post got messed up above as I must have leaned on the keyboard!


Here you go again,
Burlinz, you and me both. My eyes have been widened as to the behind the scenes stuff. My kids certainly had nobody pulling for them, nor any connections, nor even came from a known HS. However, I am aware of a lot of this kind of thing going on and I cannot say that it helped with the kids' admissions or not but only that I am seeing more and more of such instances. I will add that I am quite disillusioned by it all.
Susan

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Is there anything in life that connections don't help in some fashion? Maybe I'm too cynical.

Think though, at a given college in a given class, how many people can possibly have "connections" vs how many freshmen applicants must be admitted. And by connections I don't mean just a student at a prestigious prep school, I mean serious money, or relatives in the admission office. I don't think getting your congressman to intervene helps much, unless there are other circumstances, but if bachelor Uncle Joe donated 50 million dollars, yes, niece Sally gets some help. I also think that if your sister has a friend (boyfriend?)or acquaintance that works in admissions at Snooty College and you are interested in Snooty, she makes a call, puts in a good word, and it may help. But overall are there enough cases like this to make the process unfair - no, but if you add up all the people that get extra consideration - legacies, athletes, development,URM, profs kids, etc., the number of places for the common herd is fewer than the stated number.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

I think there are two main types of connections. One is family connections -- knowing someone who can get you in (usually a big donor). This doesn't mean that knowing a prof at the university is going to help you, it has to be a significant connection with someone who has the clout to get you in.

The other type is counselors who are connected -- often counselors from elite private high schools have connections with certain colleges, and can make phone calls that will help you.

I have no idea how widespread this is, i.e., how many kids get in through connections who would not have otherwise (probably no way to know this).

Of course there is the athletic recruitment process, but I think that is distinct from using connections, because the colleges want you based on some ability you have.

I have to echo what Soozie says -- my kid had no connections, and my guess is that most admits at top schools don't either.

By Nedad (Nedad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

I think it is a terrible shock to many people (not talking about any of the posters here) that much of the world is run by connections. It is human nature to go with what/whom you know. When I was once (years ago) working for a municipality, I often saw that people we hired through connections (connections being trusted people who could truly vouch for their proteges) were superior to the civil servants who merely scored a passing grade on the test. And the ones we knew through connections had an added incentive to work hard so they would humiliate their contact. Of course this system could also be rife with corruption - the flip side are the gov. offices full of people's no-'count relatives sitting on the payroll.

In business nowadays, many, many, MANY contracts are awarded or written with someone in mind, then "posted" or "advertised" so that the letter of the law is met. Same is true in education, where sometimes the advertisements are so tailored that only the person one has in mind will fit them.

I just think it is a pipe dream to imagine a world where EVERYONE gets EVERYTHING based on "fairness" (defined very differently by very different people) or "merit" (ditto). When we try to hire someone for our business and are faced with a huge stack of resumes spewing out of the fax machine, and then someone I know and trust says, "You ought to take a look at so-and-so - I've known him for years and he is really responsible, smart, etc." then I am relieved.

Yes, I do know people who got pulled out of the pile of 10,000 apps and got a closer look because of "connections." Happens all the time. And I know people that got a closer look because of their skin color, ethnicity, a last name with a Z in it, whatever (read "The Gatekeepers" - some kids with C's and D's with barometer reading SATS were fought for.....). I also know legacies whose parents donated money, but who were rejected because they weren't qualified for the school.

Whether it is "fair" or not is irrelevant, I think, though people will scream that "it's not what you know, it's who you know." I just think this is the world we all live in, and it's not a hill I want to die on ---- especially when much of my business (like 95%) is based on contacts.

To forestall criticism - I DO know that education isn't "business" and so should be dealt with differently......though others will argue that it is INDEED a business!

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Every year some family tells me of connections they have that they are going to use to try to get their student into some highly selective college. Unless the student was already well qualified, with the exception of two cases, I've yet to see it happen. Now I am talking about an uncle on the trustee board or a cousin who is a big time donor; that sort of thing. The one time I saw it happen was when a young lady who really was not in the running for a school was admitted as her uncle was the commencement speaker for that school, an alum and was an honored guest that year of the college. He was also an "A" list alum. Some kids in S's schools are grandchildren of some known names who have donated to top universities and most of them go to a variety of colleges; those who go to the top colleges have the profile to back them up and are well in the midstream of accepted students. As a "tip" factor, it could have well helped, but it certainly has not been a case where the student was well below the norm. The college notebook at S's school's counseling office shows more of break given to athletes and URMs than kids I know in the connected group.

Now for those who have kids who are in that group where they are well qualified but have no strong shining hook to get into a school; yes, it certainly could help to have connections. That could certainly be a nudge to get in. How much, is just not measurable, as it depends on how connected the connection is to the adcoms. The adcoms resent this sort of intervention and could well did their heels in when given pressure by someone they do not know and do not owe any consideration. There are many anecdotes where applicants endorsed by the president of the university are rejected.

That said, having a professor, coach or someone who is at the university daily really want a student because that student would contribute something needed or wanted in that community is a powerful hook. And one that if your child has, is difficult to match up with someone at a college. We don't really know which college is aggresively seeking economics majors that year, or is starting an elite choral group that is going on a special tour and invited to sing for the president of the US or the queen of England. When something like that happens there is suddenly a need for kids with a particular talent and whoever discovers that kid becomes a valuable connection. A year when the hocky team could win it all but they need a strong wing suddenly makes the hocky hook stronger and the hocky coach a valuable connection. If a prof wins a Nobel Prize and is interested in a kid who writes a paper on a subject and that prof proposes entry, that is a valuable connection. Especially if the kid is already with admittable parameters.

The admissions offices I know are configured so that any pull from within the office other than directly with the head of admissions is difficult to use unless the kid is a one read admit, and then he is probably going to be admitted anyways. If you read "The Gatekeepers", you can see the convoluted process that occurs even if an adcom has a favored student in the stack, and personally knowing the kids as a friend or relative often requires you to sequester yourself from considering the app. Even if Uncle Joe works in the admissions office of Harvard, getting your 3.0 student with the 1300 SAT is not going to happen. And if if you up that gpa to a 4.0 and the SAT toa 1500, it still is not a slamdunk.

I hear a lot of this talk because here and to even a greater degree when I lived in NY, everyone seems to be connect to someone at HYP. That's why I don't put a lot into the connection end. I did not see that much in equity except in special consideration categories that we all know about.

I have heard, however, that if you are waitlisted, contacts can tip you over. But then if your kid is waitlisted, he is one of those kids who was a strong consideration anyways. Many college admissions books strongly hint about this and have specific strategies in dealing with being on a waitlist, and they are more aggressive and heavy handed than when you initially apply.

By Concerneddad (Concerneddad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Connections work. I know of at least one kid who got into Stanford with a sub-1300 score, and no hooks. But, his dad is the president of a University.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 02:45 pm: Edit

The connections bogeyman is so small as to be not worth the trouble.

I recall the Gatekeepers had one candidate who had an inquiry made on his behalf by the President of Weslyan. If we are to believe the book (and IIRC) they rejected him without even phoning the President to inquire about him.

One thing I do think is a possible issue, is that those younger kids working in the admissions office sometimes wind up at private schools as counselors. It doesn't pay to aggravate people who might offer you a job. Whether this results in an instiutionalized favoritism for the private school kids, or whether its just another factor in the big picture is up for debate.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Why worry about other people's connections? Or other people's URM status? Or other people's SATs, GPA, or college applications? Let's face it, even if someone's connections, etc. DO get them a spot somewhere, the chances of it being "YOUR" spot are going to be close to zero if you don't have what it takes in the first place.

Concentrate on your own application, your own chances, and your own future. Worrying about some advantage another candidate may or may not have doesn't get YOU anywhere.

Just my two cents.

By Tokenadult (Tokenadult) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Soozievt, you wrote, "My eyes have been widened as to the behind the scenes stuff. . . . I will add that I am quite disillusioned by it all."

I know you post a lot here on CC, and probably have seen threads that I have never seen. Are you referring to threads here when you write what I quote above? Could you (or someone else) kindly provide me with links or thread titles so I could look it up myself?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

TOKENADULT:

"Soozievt, you wrote, "My eyes have been widened as to the behind the scenes stuff. . . . I will add that I am quite disillusioned by it all."

I know you post a lot here on CC, and probably have seen threads that I have never seen. Are you referring to threads here when you write what I quote above? Could you (or someone else) kindly provide me with links or thread titles so I could look it up myself?"

Actually Tokenadult, my comments based on observations are not from any threads on CC really so I don't have any links for you. It is more just observations I have made here and there. And I know the conventional wisdom regarding VIP recommendations and all the various issues with "connections" and whether or not they truly help or not. Even so, I just have been more aware through my own observations being engaged in this process a couple of years now of how prevalent this stuff goes on (again, not saying it is unfair or that it got someone in, merely that it is going on).

My observations are over time from several realms. First, there is just the behind the scenes "connections" some private high schools have with adcoms at schools, for which they are "feeder" schools. An idea of what I mean on that one vein is read The Gatekeepers, which really opened my eyes on that aspect. As well, there was a three part article in the NYTIMEs a few years ago chronically three students in the city from very diverse backgrounds going through the college admissions process and one student (who we coincidentally know) who went to a prestigious prep school...and his college advisor at his prep school was "dealing" with adcoms, as best as I can paraphrase that. But that is just the school "connection" aspect. Not saying this is unfair by any means, only that it exists and it is not within my kids' realm of experience here in a rural town at a public high school.

But leaving that one aspect, I also know of out of state friends of my youngest child (whom she knows from summer programs) who have had WELL known people in their field of interest (theater) write recs on their behalf, even if they have never worked directly with the student but their family knew this famous person. I know a very worthy student at Yale who had the governor (eventually presidential candidate, as well as alum of Yale) write on her behalf , though not knocking that case because the girl had instances where her work/involvement DID connect with him so that was very fair instance. I know a student with very low stats trying to get into some schools beyond his qualifications whose family will be having family friends who are director of alum relations at that college, as well as other friends, calling admissions on the child's behalf. I know a student who got on the waitlist at a presitgious college, after not getting into various Ivies on his list, and his dad told me he knew some people there who he would be able to call and help out and I have no idea if that helped but he got off the waitlist and is going there. I know of a parent whose child is applying to a school that I would evaluate as a FAR reach where I do not think admission is likely and the parent has mentioned having a family friend call on his behalf who donated 20 million to the school. If the child were already qualified that may be one thing and IF this adult had worked with the child in some capacity (has not), that might be another. Nonetheless, while these actions may not be effective and in fact, COULD hurt a candidate's chances, I am now becoming aware of how prevalent this sort of "connections" thing is being attempted at the least. How effective it is, who knows. I just know that I had no idea so much of this goes on with college admissions and I know more now and it is nothing like my own kids' college process, is all I can say. I am not calling it unfair. I realize one poster here mentioned how the real world works with "who you know" and connections in the hiring or business world, all true. But my personal viewpoint is that a student should be admitted to college on his/her own merits and this is not a place where "pull" via connections should come into play but apparently it does. I shared some stories that I recently heard (first hand) of families doing this sort of thing with my current college freshman and told her that it just makes me realize how she got in without any of this and there is a whole lot of it going on. It put it all in perspective for me, is all I can say.

So, I guess I hit on two types of "connections" and one was the school one as chronicled in The Gatekeepers and the other was having famous people, alum, donors, etc. use influence with admissions on behalf of kids they barely knew. I am not passing judgement on this stuff but merely saying that I have become much more aware of things that I was naive about before when it comes to this aspect of college admissions.

Susan

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Tolken - Just a word to the wise: Some of the posters on CC who claim to have "connections" have been proven to be lying. Recently, for instance, a poster named Annieivy claimed she had a double legacy at Harvard - the moderators discovered that she was the same person as another poster who had already been banned (Mom101). But she had members of this board believing her "Connections story" for a while. Others claimming connections are no doubt exaggerating at best.

In short, I wouldn't put much store in any claims made here of people getting into any college because of connections. As Susan notes, the situation might be different if you hear of "real world" stories in your local community that you can personally confirm. But we've had enough posters posing as someone they're not here on CC to make any such claims made here dubious at best.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Soozievt,
As an Ivy alumni interviewer, I have heard of no cases in which a recommendation from a celebrity, alum or high government official got a student into a school.

The recommendations that act as tip factors are recommendations that provide important details about a student's character or talents that indicate that the recommender knows the student very well and knows the student would be an extraordinary addition to a campus.

Recommendations from friends of parents or from celebrities/officials who happened to have a vague acquaintance with the student will not carry weight.

Very honestly, a recommendation from a school janitor stating how a student had gone out of their way to, for instance, raise funds to help the janitor's family in a poor foreing country would hold far, far more weight than would a vague reference letter from a celebrity.

As for "connections," lots of GCs, including at public schools know adcoms. That doesn't mean, however, that a particular student at a school has an automatic in.

Many parents also know adcoms and admissions officials. That doesn't mean their students have automatic acceptances. I also think that when parents try to pull strings at very competitive schools, that might count against students because adcoms might wonder why the parents think the students aren't good enough to get in on their own efforts.

In fact, when it comes to my alma mater, I have seen parents who keep very low profiles when their kids are applying. The parents don't want to wish to look like they are trying to force admissions into admitting their kids.

For instance, a friend who heads a committe for alumni interviewers in her area has taken a leave of absence this year because her son is applying. Her son has wonderful credentials also is a URM. The mom has known one of the adcoms since the mom was a freshman, yet the mom is keeping a low profile -- and is making darned sure that her son has good safeties!

I think that parents bragging about how connections will get their kids in may be parents who are very naive about the process.

By Iska (Iska) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Counselor connections

http://www.http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-042102college.story

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, I am well aware of whether or not such "connections" hold weight. I know that a VIP rec is not going to hold water if the kid is not up to par in his qualifications otherwise. As well, if the VIP has not worked with the child in some significant capacity, it also won't work. Sometimes VIP recs work at a tip factor when the VIP has a significant connection to the college, or is someone with clout/fame, and knows the student very well and the student is otherwise qualified. I know of one such case where that likely did happen but that was more justifiable as the famous person (also an alum) did work with this student. As far as the prep schools that are well connected to selective colleges, of course that does not necessarily get a kid in (though there is an element there of very close discussions, a la Gatekeepers)....again, not saying it makes a difference or gets a kid in who otherwise would not be admitted, only that it happens. I am also not saying that any parental connections of the sort I know about work at all. In fact, I totally agree that it may hurt a candidate as appearing to be trying to pull strings to get in.

I simply am saying that that sort of effort is one that I am hearing about first hand with people, as well as reading about in published materials. I am not saying it works. I am just disillusioned by the instances I am hearing about, that's all. I have never thought to do any of that, not that I have any connections. I do not even understand the recs and phone calls that those we know are having done on their kids' behalf due to either "name" or connection. I am personally not into that. Again, it very well may not work and even hurt the candidate. But I am hearing about it pretty often first hand, that's all.

I agree that the janitor letter would hold more for me as an adcom than a letter from someone who headed the alum committee who is acquainted with a son of a friend, or a phone call from a rich donor who is also an acquaintance of the parents, or from a famous person who the family was able to get to write on the kid's behalf, all of which I have first hand knowledge of.

Susan

By Editrix (Editrix) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:22 pm: Edit

I believe Jamimom, Dadx, and Northstarmom are making a valid and important point: There's a considerable gap between the perceived and the actual value of connections in admission to prestigious colleges. Obviously, many people try to pull strings of various kinds, but both my reading and own experience (as an Ivy alumn who has watched many people talk confidently about connections that ultimately don't get the results they expect) suggest that adcoms are not that easily influenced.

So where do the widely held notions about the importance of "pull" come from? I have a few theories:

1. There are the rare "development" cases in which a student gets priority treatment because his family has been a major donor to the university. But I do mean major--involving huge donations, new buildings and/or endowments--especially at the more prestigious universities. I know a family that gave approximately $1 million to found a pilot program at one of Ivies; even though the parents were both alums, their child, whose stats would have put him at the low end of the norms for that school, was not admitted.

As Michele Hernandez, who worked at Dartmouth, puts it in A is For Admissions: "I was surprised to find that the real development list includes only big donors--of the almost 11,400 applications Dartmouth received in a recent year, only about thirty people were on the full development list, and of those roughly one-third were accepted....I am convinced that most people think development or VIP cases ["celebrity applicants, such as the son or daughter of the President or the Vice President of the United States or Arnold Scharzenegger's offspring"] make up a much greater percentage than they actually do."

2. The top private schools do have top college counselors and do seem to get an exceptional number of their kids into the top colleges. But the admitted students also have exceptional stats, ECs, etc., to back up their applications. And even these connections, as pointed out in The Gatekeepers and elsewhere, don't always help. Indeed, some kids would be better served in the applications process by being the top applicant from a relatively unknown public school than by being one of dozens of similarly qualified students from their prep school.

3. I believe that recommendations from famous people can help if they're based on actual work that the student has done with that person. As Jamimom put it, "If a prof wins a Nobel Prize and is interested in a kid who writes a paper on a subject and that prof proposes entry, that is a valuable connection. Especially if the kid is already with admittable parameters."

Again, in A Is For Admission Michele Hernardez says that those kinds of connections can mean something but that others can actually backfire. "If your parent's law partner is on the board of trustees but doesn't know you at all, the letter will in all likelihood rub admissions officers the wrong way. It just shows money and privilege, not talent on your part....A letter from the President of the United States that he met you or your parents or knows you does not reveal anything about you that was not already known....These kinds of letters make officers wonder why you feel so insecure in your own abilities that you have to try to get someone to go to bat for you."

As widespread as they are, both prospective boasts ("I can definitely get into Brown because my uncle works in the admissions office") and retrospective conclusions ("so-and-so only got into Harvard because his father's old college roommate is a big professor there") about the value of connections should be taken with a large dash of salt.

By Hoo_29 (Hoo_29) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Having to do with this discussion, I am wondering if my rec. letter will help me much. I know a state politician that is very highly regarded in the state and is pretty prominent. Will my rec. letter from her help a lot? I am pretty borderline.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Hoo:

That letter will help only if the politician can be very specific about you. We are passing up offers of recs from two summer programs my S has attended because we think the letter will be rather generic, and will describe the program more than it will describe our S: "The student performed well in a very demanding program that consisted of... blah, blah, blah." If the politician cannot write about some anecdote that speaks to your qualities, don't bother.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Soozie,

Out of curiosity, are you sensing that more families from your younger daughter's peer group are pulling out the stops and seemingly using the whole "connection" thing than those with children like your older daughter, who had a more traditional academic app? I only ask because the impression that I have gotten is that the theater industry is one based on talent but it can also have a certain type of networking that isn't always pretty. It would be interesting if you had noticed all of this developing even during the admission process to performance programs.

By Editrix (Editrix) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Hoo--

From A is for Admission again: "I would seriously caution applicants from trying to get letters from 'big name' people.

"Most of the time, the letters are brief and say such things as, 'I've known Bobby's family for years and they are wonderful people. I'm sure Bobby would love Dartmouth.'...It is always better to trust your own academic achievements and let them speak for themselves. Name-dropping in most cases works against you, and the last thing you need when applying to highly selective colleges is a strike against you."

By Songman (Songman) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Marite is correct or at least in my case what she said above regarding recommendations is true. I was very naive and asked for recommendations assuming the adcom would be impressed.I had very impressive recommendations to the Harvard Business School. Let's say I was close to the Harvard community so several prominent people of the day (1981) were more than happy to write a recommendation. Also they were all Harvard alums. Yet the letters were generic in style and bland and I believe the admissions staff could tell that I was not personally connected somehow to my references. Just a guess on my part. Also a lower GMAT score than the average Harvard accepted didn't help either, HA!

It appears to me that (not a scientific study) at least 1/4 of the cases in college admissions and obtaining a job in the workplace are due to connections. In our firm 10 of the 20 summer interns we hired were from the same college that the two top managers attended. In addition, there clearly is a bias against public colleges (IMHO) as only one of the 20 interns attended a public college/university. Then again I work in New England and the college name game is very much alive still.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Editrix, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you posted, as I did with Northstarmom. I know the conventional wisdom on the affects of such "efforts". My post originally was that I just have observed many of these attempts, whether or not they worked, I have no idea and in fact, believe they can possibly backfire if not appropriate or if the rec writer or caller does not know the applicant in a significant capacity as well as the applicant being qualified in the first place. It is just that I had no idea how much people engaged in this, or their parents found those who would, etc. Just foreign from my own experiences, that's all. The part about what prep schools are able to do "behind the scenes" to advocate for specific students is also something I learned more about through reading accounts, again something I was naive about in my own little world on my dirt road in VT, lol. I surely am not advocating for people to do this or even saying it works because I know the experts' take on this. I just had no idea how much it is done. And it just so happens that lately it has come up in a few conversations with people who are looking to do these very things.

to Hoo....I pretty much would not have this politician write on your behalf UNLESS you worked with him/her in a significant capacity and he/she would be writing about you in specific ways (not a form rec letter) just like a coach or teacher might have who knew you very well. Otherwise, it is just using the "name" to help your app....not a good thing to do....as others have posted.

Elleneast...to your question about whether my observations stemmed primarily from friends of my younger D who is in the performing arts going for the professional training programs in theater...actually not really. Most of my observations were outside that but there were a few from there. The only ones I know of along this vein among friends in her field...one, a girl currently at NYU/Tisch who is very talented and I am sure got in on her own merits but I recall when she applied that her family had a friend or distant relative who was a name in the field who wrote a rec on her behalf and I thought at the time how odd to me that was as I would have had recs from those the child worked with over a "name" but she did have that rec. Again, I am not at all saying it made a difference in the outcome, only that I had no idea people were doing this with college admissions. My D's best friend from out of state, also in this field, applying to the very same programs as my daughter, has a rec from a well known Broadway composer, whom her family knows. This person may know my D's friend well enough but again, I am sure the reason for asking him as opposed to a director of a show she has done or someone she worked with closely is I am sure due to his name, how can it not be. And come to think of it, another close friend in this field, again from out of state (none of her local friends remotely have this sort of thing going), has a famous dad (NOT in a field remotely related to the arts but just the opposite) and through his dad's connections, I suppose, he flew by private jet for a one on one meeting with the person for whom the program is named after. He is a current applicant, again extremely talented and good enough to get in on his own. Then there is my daughter, lol....who does not know anyone. I am just kidding. I don't mean any of that as a sense of not being fair or even a complaint, merely that I keep hearing little vignettes like this.

But the other examples I know of are people (again not in my own community) whom I have met UNrelated to performing arts kids, who are using such calls/recs with their college admissions. Two I have spoken to in the past week or so were talking of such calls that would be made for their children, kids who in my view, were not in the ballpark for those particular colleges (liberal arts kids this time around). I don't think it will help them but I am just wondering just how much this is going on.

The other observations I cited were of the more "dealing" behind the scenes with prep school college counselors and adcoms...again all fair game but simply activities that go on that I had no clue about in my own little world in a small rural town with a public school which rarely deals with elite admissions, not until I read The Gatekeepers and then other accounts. I'm not knocking that kind of advocating and wheeling and dealing, but it is not across the board. That is why I am starting to think that wow, it is something that some of our kids got in just with the regular "stuff" and excelled at this or that, but it was all on paper only.

I really am not passing judgement on it as much as just saying I am not as naive as I used to be!

Susan

PS.....Ellen, there is networking in the theater business but not so much on the admissions to college programs (at least I do not think so). Most of the admissions to these programs is talent based and it is highly competitive and selective, worse than the Ivy League, if you can believe it.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Soozie, in my experience this is just talk. I think parents are very defensive and justifiably anxious about the process, so any "rabbits feet" or good luck charm they can talk about helps diffuse the up-front anxiety, and helps make the post-admissions angst go away faster.

Which is harder... to admit that your child, as fabulous and special as s/he is, didn't get admitted to Dartmouth, or to grouse that someone else's "connections" were better than yours???? Elite schools are filled with non-connected, oridnary kids, who are the children of people with ordinary jobs and are not sophisticated about the world of phone calls etc. Given how much some people want their kids at elite schools, it's actually amazing how few "famous people" there really are at these places. I have a neighbor (neither rich nor famous) who was furious a few years ago when her kid wasn't accepted to Yale... double legacy, very high scores and Val, but nothing special beyond the academic. Her beef at the time was that since Yale's admit rate then was 12%, and the Legacy admit rate was 17%, why was it HER KID who couldn't get the committee to budge???? there must have been some "filthy rich" legacy who stole her kids spot. I thought the rant was hilarious... your hook is better than my hook???


My niece has a funny story to tell about all these connections.... a boy in her class a few years ago who everyone felt was a shoe-in at Harvard. Multi-generational legacy, and a named chair in one of the professional schools, as well as extreme generosity to Harvard College. His own parents were pretty modest people, but the earlier generations had done pretty well and returned the favor to Harvard way back when, and he was lucky enough to have the family name. Well, the kids in his class were all aggravated.... although he was a phenomenal student in his own right, his peers seemed to feel that he was born on third base, so to speak, while the other phenomenal kids in the class had got there on their own.

Well, Mr. Harvard applied to Princeton early, was accepted, and didn't bother explaining to his classmates that he didn't want to spend four years feeling like his connections and great-grandpa's money had bought his seat. So I think for every story you hear about someone asking a business associate or vague acquaintance to "pull some strings" you've got kids who have real connections, and real influence, who choose to apply somewhere the old-fashioned way and let the chips fall where they may.

I can't imagine being an Adcom and making my five figure income and seeing letters from CEO's and influential people on behalf of a kid they barely know trying to buy their way onto campus. Must breed huge amounts of cynicism at even the slightest whiff of influence-peddling.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:56 pm: Edit

"I can't imagine being an Adcom and making my five figure income and seeing letters from CEO's and influential people on behalf of a kid they barely know trying to buy their way onto campus. Must breed huge amounts of cynicism at even the slightest whiff of influence-peddling."

I agree with that sentiment. I just can't believe how many are doing it nonetheless. I guess I thought everyone was doing it the old fashioned way but I guess not. The "stories" I told were true and not all "talk". They were very direct. I just did not realize that people were really seeking out such pull of who wrote the recs and people calling on their behalf and all this stuff. I feel like I live in an insular world (which living a rural area can be like) where it is just us normal folk where the kids sent in their apps with their various merits and let the chips fall. I assumed everyone did that. I guess I am a bit disillusioned with how many people I have met who try to use "influence" when in fact, in some cases, their kids do NOT need it and then in a few I know of recently, their kids needed it too much and could not get in on their own and I really do not think these calls are going to do it for them. I think as YOU do as to how Adcoms would view these calls or letters.

Susan

By Angstridden (Angstridden) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit

I think a lot of celebrities kids get into certain schools based on connections..no doubt in my mind. Thats how it goes. I think of John Kennedy as an example.

By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

The following anecdotal (but based on iron-clad information) "Connections/Legacy" story might best be placed in the file, "You think you know, but you really don't, and you never will."

My friend's S was a triple legacy at Stanford, father, mother and older brother(who had an outstanding career at Stanford)were all alums. His mother was a pretty involved Stanford alum, serving on boards and committees. I know she knew some Stanford Admissions people personally and spoke with them fairly regularly. This young man applies ED for the class of '06 (I believe it was ED at that time, and not EA). He is an African-American URM, National Merit Semi-Finalist (later a NMF), very good scores and GPA from one of the best prep schools in San Francisco, and he had pretty good athletic credentials too, although probably not good enough to be considered "recruited by Stanford." He had substantial community service work.

Deferred ED. Who could have predicted that? The family experienced such grief...garment-rending grief...over that outcome. He applies RD to Harvard and Cal-Berkley, gets admitted RD to Harvard, REJECTED from CAL, and accepted RD to Stanford. Attends Stanford. All's well that ends well.

By Tokenadult (Tokenadult) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

"He applies RD to Harvard and Cal-Berkley, gets admitted RD to Harvard, REJECTED from CAL, and accepted RD to Stanford."

As you wrote, Caseyatthebat, all's well that ends well. I'm curious about how someone with Harvard credentials gets rejected at Cal. I think the state university in my state is enough "by the numbers" that I can count it as a true "safety" school for any of my children. What makes Cal's admission policy different, such that a national merit semifinalist with a good GPA wouldn't get in by the numbers alone?

By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Token, I haven't a clue. That's why this episode is filed in the, "You think you know, but you really don't, and you never will" file. I have read on this site, however, about how difficult admission has become to Cal and the other CA state universities.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:07 am: Edit

"Most of the admissions to these programs is talent based and it is highly competitive and selective, worse than the Ivy League, if you can believe it."

Soozie, I absolutely believe it. One of my daughter's high school classmates is at Tisch and I found it remarkable that so much rode on what I think was a four minute presentation. She was someone who had felt the passion for acting from her early childhood. It just came out of nowhere. Her parents did not have an arts backround. She pursued acting from an early age and had worked so hard that everyone who knew her was excited when she was accepted.

Definitely the road not taken in this non-artsy household but it is very nice to know that those kids are out there. Inspiring really.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:31 am: Edit

Elleneast, yes, that is really what it is like. For my daughter, none of the schools are what most think of as safety schools. Each one's musical theater BFA program has an admit rate anywhere between 6-10%. While the student must do the entire regular application process like all the kids on here, essays and all that jazz, they also have to audition and in the case of musical theater, must excel at three disciplines in the audition....singing, dance, and acting. A LOT is riding on five to ten minutes of their life. Right now, my daughter is immersed in the college applications like everyone else, plus is preparing for auditions...selecting material and working on it, along with coaching/lessons for it. Meanwhile she also has the essays and all that part, as well as having to have variations of her resume (three so far), and then some additional essays needed for this department, along with additional recs. Then she must travel to every school on set dates over a two month period this winter.

Meanwhile, due to her passion for her craft, as well as the importance of staying immersed in it, she has training/lessons/classes outside of school, and is constantly rehearsing a show, which right now is an adult production 50 miles from our house. It is very nutty as she is involved every single night, often home at 11 PM and then all Sat. and Sunday, and so fitting all this in while also taking the most demanding course load in school is really quite the experience. As your friend's daughter, this all began at a very young age and with parents without an arts background. The kids were exposed to a variety of activities and in fact, both had a love for the performing arts and have been involved since preschool, but this child got deeper and deeper into this passion very young. Who knew? Her nursery school narrative report card even mentioned about seeing her on Broadway some day. She has been very driven in this field (I meant figuratively but I could say literally as I am a taximom). She has known what she has wanted to pursue right along and is on her mission to reach those goals. Now, she is even getting out of high school a year early to take it to the next level. If anyone asks what she is going to college for around here, it is not a shocker when I tell 'em. The "names" of the schools may not be ones they may have thought of necessarily when it comes to the fact that she is a "gifted student" kind of kid, but the programs within these schools are like "Ivies" in this field, not that anyone outside the field would know that, not that it matters. People would have no clue how hard it is to get in. It boggles my mind. Personally, I could never go in some room and perform and know that so much is riding on that short segment of time and all the training that led up to it comes to that moment. Thankfully, the experience of auditioning itself, is not one that is new for her, and she is not the nervous type, but is more the confident type. I could never do this. But even with talent or experience, just like with Ivy League schools, there are more qualified kids than spots in the class. Some of these programs take a mere 6-10 females!! It is hard to even understand this whole deal until you have a kid in it and also the depth of the passion that they are not happy unless they are working hard and engage in performing. And it takes a lot of family support to do what it takes to do all this stuff. The daily travel I am doing lately is intense and to all hours and I wonder if she realizes how lucky she is that we are so willing to do all this to allow her these opportunities and my hubby says, "she will thank you at the Tonys!", ha ha ha. Did you ever see when Kristen Chenowith won a Tony a few years ago and in her acceptance speech she really did thank her parents for all those year of ballet lessons, etc. That moved me.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:40 am: Edit

It's certainly possible to get into an Ivy League or other top college without any special connections. My D certainly had none. But help from connections certainly does exist. Does anyone actually believe that George W. Bush got into Yale strictly on his own merits?

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:00 am: Edit

That was during a different time before Yale and college admissions in general were fundamentally meritocracies. George W. Bush would have a much harder time getting admitted today (unless in our hypthetical construct we allow his dad to still be former President of the United States and then he would definitely be admitted). There are connections that people have, but they don't help that much unless the applicant is a student the college could justify admitting anyways (except maybe for the very best football recruits and a few URMs) but even then, they have to meet a fairly high standard compared to the rest of the country. Private school connections just make sure that the adcoms take a good long look at the stronger applicants (which I admit is a big boost) but in the end, they don't guarantee acceptance.

By Mom2003 (Mom2003) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 05:48 am: Edit

We seem to forget the connections that matter the most. Parents who are educated and interested and work hard on their child's behalf be it driving them to visit that 14th school 1500 miles away or editing an essay at the last moment. Do we really imagine that most kids are able to do these high demand ECs without any family support? Those who have family support end up taking part in ballet or drama for 20 hours/week while others work, babysit younger siblings and cook family dinner. Frankly, if I had to decide what proportion of kids get into college based on their own intrinsic merit and those who are boosted by connections, I would plance a much higher value on connections provided by the accident of birth into our educated families than being related to a university president.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 08:19 am: Edit

Mom2003, excellent point. While I would not use the term "connections" in that case, the kids who are fortunate in their family's support have a clear advantage in education. Many kids do not have that for whatever reason, and it is not always about the financial part either. But clearly it is easier for a kid to succeed in these endeavors and often even in the college admissions process when they have opportunities provided by parents, support (not just finanical) to do these opportunities and even guidance with the college admissions process. A lot of our children are very fortunate in this regard and it is an advantage by "default" so to speak.

Susan

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 08:20 am: Edit

Hear, hear!

By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:21 pm: Edit

I really don't have the foggiest to what extent connections play in to the process. But, to me, connections = money - as in big supporters of the school. I get a good chuckle thinking of an acquaintance many years ago who flunked typing at the local community college "because it was so boring and so much trouble to go to class, and you have to PRACTICE!!! Next semester, she was enrolled in a fairly prestigious private college in town. Seems Daddy endowed a chair.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Alongfortheride, my daddy didn't endow a chair but I flunked typing too. Lots of capable people don't do well in subjects involving lots of repetition of essentially mindless tasks.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Mom 2003

"Those who have family support end up taking part in ballet or drama for 20 hours/week while others work, babysit younger siblings and cook family dinner."

I do not agree with that statement. There are kids who have even less money than most you can barely imagine. For first 5 years in life in USA, we barely provide food on the table with just $10,000 earing per year. We were living dirt poor. But my kid did study as I was a immigrant who knew very liitle English and a student here. My five year old and two year old were in labs and library reading for three to five hours. Our family probably just barely buy food, pay rent and rest we spent on education buying books on sale in garage sale. Most kid like to have fun and then in adulthood they face problems when thry grow old and become adult. But there are few who tries to break this cycle and come out with flying colors. Now I do not think school will ignore these things.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Chinaman, I can't speak for Mom2003, but in my post, my point was that kids who often succeed in these endeavors, including the college admissions process, are those whose parents were very supportive and I emphasized that such support was not always financial, but more about providing opportunities, as well as supporting endeavors, and guiding them through these things (college admissions process being just ONE example). You are a parent who has done EXACTLY that, and are an excellent example of what I meant that it was not all about financial support or "means".

Susan