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Article from the Daily Princetonian about 2004 yields at Harvard (79) Princeton (68 (down from 72) Yale (similar to Princeton) MIT and Stanford (somewhat lower).

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/10/07/news/10999.shtml

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 09:02 am: Edit

Interesting that Princeton's yield drops five points, when they are admitting close to 1/2 their class ED (so 100% yield for those acceptees). I would love to see the RD yield comparison, although of the schools mentioned, only Princeton has binding ED so perhaps it's a little apples and oranges.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:01 am: Edit

A little math tells us that the RD yield is in the mid 50's.

Princeton's website has an interesting chart that shows the differences in applicant, admitted and enrolled pool by SAT quartiles.

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/04/08.htm

Note that the admitted class stats are a tad higher than the matriculating class. Also note that, in math, for instance, once you hit 800 you are not certain that the boundary does not in fact represent perhaps the 70th %tile rather than the 75th.

Obviously it made a difference in the applicant pool at Prnceton that the Stanford and Yale early acceptees were no longer barred from applying to Princeton.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:07 am: Edit

There had been talks that Princeton would move to SCEA. But Dadx'analysis suggests that if Princeton were to adopt SCEA, it would have an even lower yield. Given Princeton's reputation for providing the best undergraduate experience among HYPSM, it should certainly be interesting to learn what made cross-admits choose other schools over P. It can't possibly be the "because it's Harvard" argument-consider how Harvard gets clobbered in so many college sites, including CC!

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:08 am: Edit

Thanks, Dadx, it's nice to have someone who can do the math on that for me! (I blame law school for driving any math abilities I had completely out of my brain.)

I wonder if that puts Princeton's RD yield lower than the other ED ivies, esp those with almost as low overall acceptance rates like Columbia and Brown.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit

I do think the "because it's Harvard" argument is a factor, because, after all, the majority of kids don't read these college sites (and don't know what they're missing).

But Princeton is in flux, as is the admissions office. The old admissions office went for a very specific type of student, and that student was likely to enroll. The new admissions folks are taking risks, mixing it up a lot more, going out on a limb to attract more minority and very low-income students, seeking out those arts kids, and reaching out to applicants from places like Stuyvesant for the first time, and all of those groups may need a little persuasion to believe that they will be welcome and thrive at Princeton. Happily, my d seems to be meeting huge numbers of kids of all of the above descriptions.

And, as always, the popular myths about the eating clubs are a little scary to students who have no way to learn about what they are really like. They are actually very appealing to and fun for kids who are not particularly elitist or alcohol-obsessed. Unfortunately, instead of giving students accurate information, the university chooses to downplay them as much as possible.

By Idler (Idler) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:48 am: Edit

Do I remember that Princeton also experienced a noticeable decline in number of applications this year? I believe I remember comments by Dean Rapeleye that it was not a cause for concern because the quality of the pool was higher: but lower total apps+ 5% lower yield is not a good sign for them.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:49 am: Edit

Aparent -- I have also heard that Princeton intends to look more broadly for applicants, but I think if they truly wanted to do that, they would minimize their reliance on binding ED, which appears to be a way to prop up their yield to a level that is at least comparable to the other schools mentioned.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit

Princeton is an organization like any other. Last year it hired a new dean of admissions. The applications were shockingly late in being available (I gather they are late again this year). They sent out few pr materials. Even this year, it's taken them until October 7 to come up with a new viewbook. I am sure that affected applications. This year they finally decided to accept the common app.

Rhonda, from things I've read there is a very hot dispute going on between various admins about whether to switch from binding ED. One big factor is the need for more admissions staff if they go to SCEA. I am sure we will hear more about this.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:00 am: Edit

I was able to find Chris Averys deleted webdata in a cache somehwere, and his survey stats showed [top alternatives chosen by students]

Harvard admits(129 students)
76.7% Harvard
3.9 Stanford
3.1 Yale
3.1 MIT

Yale admits(114 students)

75.4% Yale
7.o Harvard
4.4 Stanford
2.6% Brown

Princeton Admits(83 students)

Princeton 62.7%
13.2 Harvard
7.2% Stanford
4.8% Yale


Careful about reading too much into the data though. The group was a select group, so the NOT admitted to PRinceton group(233 Students) looked like this

7.33% Penn
6.47 Cornell
5.6 Dartmouth
5.17 Harvard
5.17 Virginia
4.74 Yale

So in his sample, almost a third of those who were rejected at Princeton went to one of the six schools above, in cluding 10% who attended Harvard or Yale.

In any case, I think the "its Harvard" thing is a big deal for people. There is also a different demographic, I think, to Princetons applicant pool, based on geography and perhaps other factors as well.

By Justanothermom (Justanothermom) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

Aparent,

"the popular myths about the eating clubs are a little scary to students who have no way to learn about what they are really like."

Absolutely. My D, who was mildly interested in Princeton, does not even want to visit now. Her reason? She wants to "apply to a college not a country club." After giving me the Fiske Guide to read, I have to admit that the apparent importance of the eating clubs does reinforce that perception. We have told her to keep an open mind and talk to a couple of Princeton alums we know. The “country club” perception seems to be so firmly in place, though, that I see little chance of a sudden change of mind.

By Kissy (Kissy) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:19 am: Edit

I think the lower application rate also may have been partly due to confusion in the admissions office. My D was planning to apply after having visited and had been on their mailing list for several years. They had initially said that the apps would be available during the summer of '03 but, due to "problems" with printing, my D didn't receive her app till mid-October. Princeton's application was pretty lengthy and by that point in time, her decision was to "fuggetaboutit".

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:25 am: Edit

My son would have loved to apply in Early Round for Princeton as it offers a good program in physics and math. However ED just does not allow us to compare and thus he has to apply in RD Round.

Harvard has the JFK school with its numerous opportunities which is mouth watering for a kids who love politics. All this opportunities are so much enticing that kids some time have a hard time making choices and they flip flop.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:37 am: Edit

After visiting Princeton (twice) my son never had an interest in applying there. He never really told us precisely why, but we suspected that he was not completely comfortable with the whole (presumed elitist) concept of the eating clubs. He is a pretty down to earth kid. He also had a terrible tour guide and an uninformative information session. He went back for a second visit just to make sure. His mind did not change. His GC (and Dad) thought that he would be a good candidate for Princeton, but for some reason he wasn't interested.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:49 am: Edit

My S is also very attracted to Princeton b/c of math and physics. But he wants to give himself more time to really think through the consequences of his college decision, so ED is too constricting for him.

In saying "It can't just be 'because it's Harvard'" I wanted to suggest that while there are positive reasons (whether right or wrong) why some students may choose Harvard (or Yale, or some other competing college) over Princeton, there are also some reasons why they do not choose Princeton over the other colleges. Some of these may be impossible to alter, such as Princeton's location. Some may be due to stereotypes, which may or may not be correct.

Two stereotypes brought up in posts above are about the eating clubs and binge drinking on Newman's Day and on other occasions. Maybe it is only losers who take part in Newman's Day, but the dean's confiscation of ND tee-shirts last year did not suggest that the practice was confined to a handful of students, losers or otherwise.

>>The new admissions folks are taking risks, mixing it up a lot more, going out on a limb to attract more minority and very low-income students, seeking out those arts kids, and reaching out to applicants from places like Stuyvesant for the first time, and all of those groups may need a little persuasion to believe that they will be welcome and thrive at Princeton>>
This, it seems to me, says a lot about Princeton's problems in competing against peer institutions for the same pool of students. Despite having the most generous financial aid package of all the colleges, it is seen as less welcoming to low-income students. Despite having a stellar faculty and the reputation of providing the best undergraduate experience, it is seen as unwelcoming to the kind of highly intellectual students one finds at Stuyvesant, hence the very public reaching out to Stuy by the new dean.
It will take time to reverse all these negative perceptions.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:06 pm: Edit

What's really sad is that what students discover when they get onto the Princeton campus is that it is an intensely welcoming place where they are immediately swept up in all sorts of EC activities and where EC groups are both very serious and very social (along the lines of what you may have heard if you listened to the NPR segment on Yale's a cappella groups). I do think the admin is trying to publicize this, but reputation often lags behind reality.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Aparent -- I'm not even suggesting a switch to SCEA, but a reduced reliance on ED. Princeton fills almost 1/2 its class ED -- in comparison, Brown fills only about 1/3. As Chinaman says, this shuts out people who need to compare finaid offers, and leaves fewer spots for such people in the RD round.

I agree the eating clubs are definitely a problem, even if only a perception problem. I understand they are a tradition at Princeton and the school probably does not want to eliminate them, but there are a LOT of smart kids who are going to be put off by them. You're right, Princeton should address the issue directly rather than trying to downplay and ignore it.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 01:04 pm: Edit

The school has no affiliation with the eating clubs. The university is instituting four-year residential colleges by 2007 so that students will not have to get involved with the eating clubs at all, should they so choose.

However, many students find that what they like about the eating clubs, ironically enough, is that "the Street" becomes a place where the whole campus congregates on Thursday and Saturday nights, moving from one club to another and connecting with friends. This is the opposite of the impression one gets when hearing about them.

However, while the alumni and students tend to be in favor of the eating clubs, the admin is pretty negative about them because they don't like the negative perception. As I've said, I think they ought to try to change the perception.

The university has done two things this year that look promising to me: they are holding some academic seminars in various eating clubs, and they are giving every first-year student a free meal in a randomly selected club (attempting to demystify the clubs).

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 01:11 pm: Edit

"The university has done two things this year that look promising to me: they are holding some academic seminars in various eating clubs, and they are giving every first-year student a free meal in a randomly selected club (attempting to demystify the clubs)."

What a nice opportunity to learn and eat at the same time. Any free lunches for outside people like me. I love the soultion. hahaha

By 1moremom (1moremom) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 01:27 pm: Edit

My son is another math/physics kid who didn't like the vibe at Princeton. He and his father had a hotel reservation, but he decided to come home after one day and there was nothing we could say to get him to consider it further. It is the only school we've looked at that he had such a strong feeling about.

By Keats (Keats) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 01:35 pm: Edit

The eating clubs were probably the one aspect of Princeton that my daughter was unsure about, but it does seem that the buzz is worse than the reality. I am pleasantly surprised at how very much the social scene is a mix and an interchange of all sorts of groups. One day my daughter is doing things with hall people, the next there is a get together of pre-orientation friends, or meeting friends for meals at other dining halls (seems quite common) and there are also invites to meals with friends in eating clubs. It is still early, but from what I hear, the clubs are very welcoming to all, non-members often go to parties and eat there as guests, and there are always more options of things to do than my child can fit in. Yes there seem to be a lot of parties at the street, but she goes to arts events and movies and athletic events, is very involved in some extracurriculars, and especially likes getting together with all of her new friends who are so varied in talents and interests, and are from all over the world. "Going independent" (not being in an eating club) seems totally acceptable and new four-year residential colleges are in the works as an additional choice. It seems people are varied and accepting, and there are lots of options. I am thrilled that my child is at such a place.

I do think there are misconceptions and PR glitches. I think that Princeton heretofore did not have post-PSAT mailings, and there does seem to be a good feeling generated from, "look what I got in the mail from this school..." albeit perhaps initially before it becomes a deluge. Maybe Princeton has been quiter than other colleges.

Also, my child never got the paper app in the mail, whether a post office glitch or not I have no way of knowing, but kids do look for those paper apps even when apps are online, and even online Princeton was very late last year. I do often wonder how many other kids didn't even get applications. I also wonder how many found the Princeton app, when it did finally come out last year, to be a lot to do(or to do well) in a shorter amount of time than they had for other apps, especially since some of these kids are so very busy. (I do like the Princton app,however. I think it does serve to reveal a lot about the applicant.) Of course, there was a new Dean of Admission last year, the turnover time may have been hectic.

There seem to be so many kids just applying across the board to all top colleges because acceptance is such a longshot and is so unpredictable. I wonder how much cross-admittance has grown in recent years. It must make it very difficult for admission offices.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 01:46 pm: Edit

My D was not thrilled by the eating clubs, at least what she knew of them, but actually did like Princeton better than Yale and particularly Harvard(although not as much as Brown!). This may have had more to do with the academics than anything else, though, since she had a very good discussion with the head of the Classics dept there.

IMO, the "street value" of a Princeton degree is worth any negative social aspects created by the eating clubs. But if Princeton is trying to broaden its appeal to bright students who are going to be put off by the clubs, encouraging "going independent" as a real option is a good idea.

I also think it's a little disingenuous to point to the fact that the clubs are unaffiliated w/Princeton as a reason the school can't do anything about how they are perceived, btw.

By Garland (Garland) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Chalk us up as another family which got an elitist vibe about Princeton, largely because of the eating clubs, but also general perception. I'm glad to hear that the clubs do not really function in the closed society way I had envisioned, but just the fact that one must join one or "go independent" seems stratifying. Like saying, "well, ninety percent of the campus is in a frat, but it's really ok to be independent, too." I fully understand that perception may be mistaken, but it's hard to shake.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Garland -- I agree with you about the value of going independent as an option if it is indeed not used by many students. And why not just open all the dining clubs up to anyone, rather than having the selection process that some continue to have? Obviously there is limited space in each, but it could easily be a lottery or a first come first serve kind of thing, rather than some sort of "vetting" of each applicant. That's what strikes me as the most elitist aspect.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

A different take on eating, this one at Yale:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/10/07/food_for_thought/

By Keats (Keats) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 02:41 pm: Edit

I can only say that my child was put off by colleges with big frat scenes and was disinterested in others that she felt didn't have enough social and extracurricular options. She is very strong and very independent, is not a drinker, and had no pre-conceived notion of Princeton whatsoever, other than that it was academically regarded as a top university like Yale and Harvard. No one she knew had ever gone there. (I hadn't even found CC til after she'd applied! But for my next one I'll be more informed...) She wanted to visit because the Princeton people responded kindly to her queries about certain programs. We were fortunate to have a wonderful tour guide, and not only that, but students stopped and pointed us in the right direction when we had maps in hands, people stopped and chatted with me when my child was sitting in on classes, and the profs and students were very welcoming to her. Of all of the many colleges we visited, really Princeton was just unsurpassed in nice and helpful people, even though academics were the overriding concern.

I don't in any way get the impression of stratification, things seem such a mix. And this from my daughter who balks at stratification and division and elitism, and other such things. If things were as the myths purport, there is no way this kid would be so happy there. But I wish that everyone could have college visits like ours to Princeton--such a visit can't help but make you look twice at a school.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Rhonda, I would appreciate not being called disingenuous when I seek to offer a simple factual response to your statement. You said, "I understand they are a tradition at Princeton and the school probably does not want to eliminate them." The reality is that the university has no right to close them down. They are private clubs with massive support from alumni and members. In fact, there are certainly people in the admin who, if they could wave a magic wand and do so, would happily close down the eating clubs.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Sorry, Aparent, didn't mean to offend you.

My point was simply that I expect Princeton could do something about the eating clubs if they really wanted to -- for example, are the buildings owned by the university or the clubs? I'd be surprised if the university doesn't have quite a bit of control over the clubs -- as another example, couldn't they ban them as some schools have banned frats?

Again, I apologize for using a term that offended you, I should have thought before I "spoke."

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Marite, thanks for posting that piece about Yale. The NY Times ran a story about the Berkeley dining hall's gourmet organic food, and I had not realized until then that Yale's residential colleges' activities are supported by their alumni, which means that food and fun vary from one to another.

Re why not eliminite the selection process for the eating clubs, oddly enough, that does not seem to be what the students want. One nonselective club (they work by a lottery) actually chose to become selective this year because evidently that is a way to attract members. Just as first-year students at Harvard choose a group of seven friends with whom they will live in a house from sophomore year on, Princeton students like to eat with a group of friends at a club where their friends go.

Garland, re the independents, these students tend to cook together in nice apartments, or to join food coops together. The way they live and eat is the norm at many schools. At Brown, for example, many students choose to live off campus and cook for themselves senior year. Princeton has an intense social "scene" that doesn't necessarily appeal to everybody, which is why some go independent, but from all I have seen, that scene is certainly open to anyone who chooses to participate.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Thanks, Rhonda. Actually, the buildings are owned by the clubs themselves, which is a reflection of their history. The clubs started 150 years ago when the university stopped serving food on campus and groups of students got together in local boardinghouses and set up their own corporations. These houses were eventually replaced as the students brought in architects such as Charles McKim and built mansions for themselves.

And the university did shut down the fraternity houses, but the fraternities and sororities still exist.

By Keats (Keats) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 05:12 pm: Edit

I think it does help that students usually don't live in the eating clubs (unless maybe club officers?), unlike at frat or sorority houses, so there is residential mixing, too.
I like that Princeton students stay on campus all four years (very few exceptions). There seems to be a lot of cohesiveness and school spirit that you don't always see when a large percentage lives off campus.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Keats -- I also think it is definitely a good thing if most students live on campus all four years. I don't know if a factor for Princeton is that there may not be much housing off campus suitable for students and still convenient, since it is located in a fairly wealthy suburb.

Also, I think in frats and sororities, only some of the members live in the houses (definitely not my area of expertise though!).

By Keats (Keats) on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Rhonda, oh I think you're right, housing in town may be pricey. We were down some cute little streets, very narrow with houses right next to one another, that wouldn't be expensive everywhere but of course Princeton is fairly close to NYC and there is the train for commuting...
But it's nice having the students on campus.

You know, for all the debate that the eating clubs cause, I applaud Princeton for taking the lead with such generous financial aid that does anything But encourage elitism. Having no loans as part of the package is incredible. To graduate debt free these days, if you're middle class, is incredible. All grants and work study. The financial aid really makes it possible for kids who get in to go there, and maybe that is one reason why there seems to be such a mix of people there, all sorts of backgrounds. It seems other schools are following suit: Brown just announced a limited no loan policy (for lower income students) and Harvard this year instituted a new financial aid policy. I am always amazed that so few people seem to know about the generous aid. So many people think Princeton is out of reach financially, and of course it is not.
Anyway,I'm watching the eating clubs and the new residential colleges with interest. Good luck to your daughter!

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 09:03 am: Edit

Keats -- my D is not applying to Princeton (she is a soph at Brown). I agree with you about Princeton's finaid policies, I think they were the first among the ivies to be so generous with need-based aid and to limit (or eliminate) the heavy loan burden, and the fact that they've done a very good job of advertising it should help attract applicants from a wider socio-economic demographic.

And I should say, in spite of the eating clubs, the ED emphasis, and the heavy legacy preference (the last two are issues at other schools, too, of course), I think Princeton is a fantastic school and I would have been very, very happy had my D applied there, been accepted, and decided to attend (if nothing else, the drive from DC to Princeton is much easier than DC to Providence!!).

She actually DID like Princeton, and had a very good talk with the head of the Classics dept. He told her they have only 15 Classical language majors (as opposed to "Classics" majors who often don't take advanced Greek or Latin, more ancient history) and asked her about her Latin background and told her that based on it she could start with an advanced Latin seminar as a freshman. He was very encouraging, although obviously he didn't know her overall profile, and followed up with her, asking her to tell him when she sent in an app so he could keep an eye out for it (since she got into Brown ED, she never applied). I think that Princeton would probably have been her #2 choice, right after Brown.

I also think that Princeton's "preppy" reputation is probably overstated. My D is extremely NOT preppy, and liked Princeton better than Yale based on visits to both, and she was someone who visited these schools w/o some preconceived notion of what they would be like. So I don't want you and Aparent, or anyone else, to think I'm anti-Princeton -- definitely not the case!! (I have my issues w/Brown, too, BTW!)

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 09:38 am: Edit

Rhonda, I think all the schools have their good points and their flaws. I also think sometimes a few of the kids on these boards take seriously a myth about a school that really overtakes reality...Brown students are all pot-smoking whackos, Harvard students are all arrogant, Princetonians are obnoxious preppies, etc. So it's great we have these discussions, where hard questions get asked and we share our personal observations.

It is nice having the students on campus, and if there is one thing I think of aside from academics when I think of Princeton, it's what you noted, Keats, about the cohesiveness and school spirit.

Off to Parents' Weekend...

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 09:43 am: Edit

Have a great time! Brown's is not until late October, so I have a couple of weeks to wait -- am dying to see D, so counting the days!

I agree about the stereotypes, particularly w/mid-size and larger schools -- interestingly, I noticed this year when I dropped D off that many of the Brown students looked very all-American (some might even say preppy!), certainly not the image people have of Brown. I don't think I paid as much attention last year, because we were so caught up in the "dropping off the freshman" thing. From what I see and hear, they also study extremely hard (again, not the Brown reputation).

So I hope kids and parents won't write off a school because of a stereotype about the students there -- visit, and you may find that it's not reality.