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So..I've been thinking about this for a while

My grandfather has long told me that his father was a Native American. Unfortunately, when assimilation occured, he was forced to relinquish his heritage and thus married a white woman and had children (my grandfather).

Technically, I believe that I am thus Native American. Nevertheless, I have no documentation nor do I have a tribal affiliation. Also, I would feel bad if a school accepted me because they thought I could contribute "Indian" to their diversity figures.

What shall I do? Obviously it would help me out in admissions, but I'm not sure if I can or should put it down.

By Voronwe (Voronwe) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Native Americans are (rightly I think) very touchy about who claims to be a member. You really need the documentation and tribal affiliation to claim this. If it is important to you, round up the facts (birth certificates, etc) and apply to the tribe. Otherwise do not put it down. It will not "count" for the college and their stats if it cannot be proved, and besides, anyone can claim some distant Indian ancestor.

Native American applicants are rare, and the college WILL check it out. Besides the virtual certitude of being caught, I think you know - or you wouldn't have posted as thoughtfully as you did - that there is something extremely unseemly about "using" Native Americans for some kind of perceived advantage when no one in the family was ever willing to stand with them before (by enrolling in the tribe etc).

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit

I doubt that a college is going to check. However, each tribe has a different blood quotient for membership. You would qualify, for example, if you were a Cherokee (1/64th), but not as an Onandaga (1/4th). So unless you could honestly attest to membership qualification as seen by the tribe itself, it would seem rather squirly to me.

The reality check is rather simple: if you went to Indian Health Services today, would they provide you with medical services? If the answer is "no", or you don't know where the Inidan Health Services office is, or what they provide, I think you've likely answered the question.

What do you do for fun?

By Voronwe (Voronwe) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Mini, I almost always agree with everything you say :-) but I beg to differ here. As in "The Gatekeepers" getting a real Native American is a tremendous coup, and all my colleagues say they most emphatically DO check - it's that important. N.A.'s are a really hot commodity as they are so rare in higher ed.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Well can't I just claim that im an unaffiliated Native American?

Like I said, during the periods of assimilation, my great-grandfather relinquished his tribal affiliations and from then on out, no one has really even discussed it in my family.

I guess I'll just stick to caucasian

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit

yes, sensible thing to do. Don't get into trouble over this.

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit

I really wouldn't know. In our state, with 27 federally recognized tribes and the Seattle Urban Indian Project, everyone knows whether they are in or out - there are no gray areas. In some tribes, it is blood quotient only. Some include a living on res requirement. Some have blood quotient and a requirement that you be "voted" in (and you can be kicked out as well.)

I expect that is mostly true on the east coast, too. With casino funds being divided, having a clear list of who's in and who's not has taken on new importance. If you aren't getting a check (in many places), chances are you're not in.

The far-flung nature of the Cherokee nation (and the fact that they are very much a hybrid of many tribes that were marched to Oklahoma) makes theirs the most difficult case. We also have some tribes in Washington State that aren't federally recognized (i.e. the Duwamish) that has played havoc with various funding formulas, etc.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Let me clarify:

I 100% know that I am NOT affiliated with a tribe. I was simply wondering if I could still include the fact that I AM Native American, just not in the college admissions sense (which is perfectly understandable)

By Wjb (Wjb) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Also, don't socioeconomic factors play a role in assessing URM status? It certainly seems to me they should. For instance, assume a student's father is a wealthy banker who emigrated to the US from Panama. For that kid, checking the "Hispanic" box on the application will not help in the admissions game, especially once a college discovers that he has attended a top high school and is not seeking financial aid. Correct?

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Nope. Just the opposite. Harvard reported that approximately 2/3rds of their "African-American" attendees fall into this category - often not requiring any financial aid, and often from Jamaica, Bahamas, etc.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 06:28 pm: Edit

WJB,
When it comes to Hispanics, I have read that there are some colleges that essentially view only Hispanics of Mexican or Puerto Rican ancestry as URMs. That's because Mexican and Puerto Ricans have far higher h.s. drop-out rates and lower test scores than do other categories of Hispanics.

By Willywonka (Willywonka) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Wow, the Cherokee quotient is low. My 1/4th certainly qualifies me for that, but I don't intend to "use" it in the admissions game. I only met my grandfather once, and I have no attachment to the culture that I could contribute to a campus. As noble as that sounds, I really just don't want to get "in trouble" over it.

Also, I know how disgusted I am with an acquaintance whose only chance of gaining admission is that he is a detached 1/4th Puerto Rican, just as I am Native America. It's fully within both of our rights to use "it," but it's left a bad taste in my mouth, so I'll opt out.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

willywonka-

i agree with everything you just said. i'll do the same.

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Yes, the Cherokee quotient is low, but consider what happened to them that made it low. Given that so many unrelated tribes were bundled off to this section of Oklahoma, it became almost impossible for the Cherokee to maintain their tribal culture in any other way. It's not like they went out of their way to take in everyone they could. They just had no choice if there was any hope for their maintaining a viable culture. (And, again, given their location, they certainly don't make any money at it!)

By Coureur (Coureur) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:48 am: Edit

The largest American Indian tribe --> The Wannabees - white folk claiming to be part Native American based on family tales of some remote ancestor who was a chief, usually a Cherokee. For some reason the Cherokees keep coming out on top of the USN&WR annual ranking of The Hottest Native American Tribes.

I applaud Willywonka and Ilcapo for taking the high road. If in your heart you know you are a URM and self-identify as such, go ahead and put it down. But if in your heart you know that, despite that one great grandparent who may have had black hair, you are really a white guy, be an honest white guy.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:21 am: Edit

I'm going to disagree. If I am reading the posts correctly, both of these boys are 1/4 Native American.

Frankly, I think this moment is the ideal one to explore the connection to their family tribes. I think their tribes would be proud--no thrilled--to acknowledge them. Raising their understanding with a little research might bring all sorts of unseen benefits--the very very least of which might be a slight advantage in admissions to elite colleges.

I and W; Start talking to your parents and grandparents and discover your ancestry! That's an essay in itself...

By Glowingamy (Glowingamy) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:22 am: Edit

Also it's impossible to take the suffering of parents (caused by race/circumstance, the reasons for AA) seriously for the applicant. I'm half chippewa (northern minnesota) on my dad's side, and he went through godknowswhat to get himself out of of a school system that he'd finished with a 4.0 BY EIGHTH GRADE, no foreign language offered, math up to algebra II, based on a bankrupt oil company in the middle of nowhere, the nearest SAT center 80 miles away, but he graduated from harvard magna cum laude for chemistry. THAT is what many native americans have to deal with, and it's the reason they are given a (just, imo) admissions advantage. And here I am, the daughter in a rich Massachusetts suburb at this top school with a denim bookbag taking harvard extension school courses to which his car drives me. There are thousands of cases like his, but also thousands like mine in the US and thank god they investigate it or things would get really crazy.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 09:21 am: Edit

Mini -- I have a close friend who is a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I don't know if you are referring to the Eastern Band of Cherokees (in NC, I think), but the OK tribe does not have a blood quantum requirement as far as I know. I recall my friend had to document her Cherokee heritage to a direct descendent on a list of people who were given land in OK after the Trail of Tears, through birth certifications, etc. If she could do that (which wasn't an issue for her because all of her direct descendents were members anyway and that documentation was readily available), the blood quantum was not even asked for (and it's not on her tribal membership card, which I have seen).

So Icalpo, if you're going to claim to be Cherokee, it's not an easy task to get membership. And my friend did have a son who WAS asked for membership documentation when he applied to colleges, probably about 6 years ago. If you're not a tribal member (or have other documentation like letters from tribal elders), they won't consider you Native American for admissions purposes, and IMO it just looks like you're reaching to try to hang anything on it.

If you're not a member or not heavily involved in Native American issues/culture/etc (there are some people who actually live on reservations and are likely full blood Indians, but don't have the documentation to prove it), I think you would be hurting your app to mention it (you don't want to be the kid the adcoms say "oh yes, the one who is trying to claim he's Indian!"). And if you mention it in your app, the chances are actually quite good that someone will ask for documentation, and you will look particularly foolish when you have none, nor any sort of connection or relationship w/a tribe.

You should know that everybody and their brother claims to have some Native American ancestor, btw (usually a "Cherokee princess" lol).

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:16 am: Edit

My neighbor is LaGrande, but her mother is Modoc and something else but they are very picky about who they allow to affliate, she is only one married to a white man, but they live on a reservation in Oregon.
I don't think it is kosher to try and argue ethnicity on basis of ancedotal information.
The fact that your great grandfather had indigenous blood has not affected your life at all.
Minority preference is to get the campus more diverse, can you argue that your presence is going to accomplish that?
http://www.native-languages.org/genealogy.htm
If you are interested in finding out more about your ancestors this may be a good place to start

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit

Ilcapo, you need some kind of documentation. Do you have your great-grandfather's birth certificate or passport, anything that would prove him to be a native American?

I was at a Yale info session when a very affluent-looking, very white-looking parent asked whether it would help his child that he had a great-grandparent who was a native American. The Yale adcom said it could. Like Veronwe, I had steam coming out of my ears when I heard that, but what are you going to do? All's fair...

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit

Aparent -- The friend's son I mentioned before did apply to Yale, and Yale was one of the schools that sent him a letter asking for a copy of his tribal membership card. Stanford and Princeton did, too, and Stanford also wanted his BIA card (apparently all tribal members have a separate card issued by the BIA, don't know much more than that).

My guess is this adcom was giving an off the cuff answer (yes it "could help," he couldn't really say "no it won't help"). I wouldn't assume that Yale is going to give a boost in admissions to someone based on anecdotal, undocumented information.

I think it is interesting that Native Americans are the only minority group that the colleges require to have documentation, btw.

By Xdad (Xdad) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:45 am: Edit

Bad, bad idea!

I am sure that it has been said before but it is worth repeating. There are different yardsticks for URM consideration. In spite that the URM are classified by ethnicity/race, the Native American Indians have to be able to provide additional proof of tribal affiliation AND tribal participation.

Unless someone discovers that there is a Mafiosi tribe, Ilcapo would fail both requirements. It is not very hard for colleges to separate the authentic applicants from people who try to claim heritage in the specious way Ilcapo does. This pretense would cast extreme doubt on his entire application. Why would he take the risk to jeopardize an otherwise stellar application?

By Achat (Achat) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

I completely agree. I don't think it is a good idea to say you are American Indian when you have no connection - emotional or otherwise to them. In my view, it's not worth it.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:48 am: Edit

I would guess that if you were not identified as a minority by your high school, you would not be able to change that identification for college.
My daughters best friend who is 1/2 white 1/2 black was indentified as white when she started kindergarten as the district assigned for desegregation purposes. The school that was closest and where her parents wanted her to attend was mostly black. However, now that she wants it to reflect a more accurate picture of where she lives and is being raised she wants to switch but district won't allow .

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:04 pm: Edit

EK:

I don't think how a district labels a local child has any bearing on colleges. It's entirely self-reported and even optional in most cases. As well, it is increasingly accepted that most people are not one thing or the other, and that they are more people who fit Tiger Woods' made-up label.
My S has a friend who is part African-American and part Asian-American, and who is a member of two different ethnic themed clubs at school ( He also happens to have dual legacy at two Ivies).

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Xdad -

"claim heritage in the specious way Ilcapo does"

The point of this post was to ASK what I should do, and I am the one who said that I do not want to misrepresent the fact that I am going to be coming to college with a headdress and tribal chants.

I never declared mysel a minority, I simply wondered whether it would be appropriate or not. I have found my answer.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:32 pm: Edit

I know that how colleges determine if you need a waiver for application is determined by whether you are considered lowincome/free reduced lunch by your district.
Since schools do send reports to colleges, why would how you are indentified in the district not be part of that information?

By Dcmom3 (Dcmom3) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:53 pm: Edit

This raises an interesting question: are Native Americans required to provide more stringent proof of the URM status than other URMs? A girl from our h.s. got into Duke--blond hair, blue eyes, and also African American (which many of us never knew until AFTER she got accepted.) She might have gotten in to Duke anyway, and perhaps she did not list her ethnicity on her ap as African American--I have no way of knowing. This is kind of a delicate area to discuss but doesn't it seem that requiring proof of ethnicity from some groups but not from others is discrimination?

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Dcmom -- as far as I know, Native Americans are the only group asked to provide proof. Of course, as far as I know, they are the only minority group which has official "membership requirements" and "membership cards."

And for some of the points above -- I hope that as this generation grows up, some of the ridiculous categorization will go away, since there are many, many more mixed race kids than there used to be, and asking them to check "one box only" can be incredibly offensive (I'm not talking about college apps here, but things like school district enrollments, drivers' licenses, etc).

My D was asked to fill out a form in 5th grade, as part of placement testing for middle school. The form said "one box only" and she didn't know what to check (she is Asian and white). So she asked the teacher, who said, "just put down what your mother is."

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:15 pm: Edit

TV has led us to believe that all Indians have long black hair, dark skin and high cheekbones. This isn't always accurate and many Indians have blond hair, blue eyes and fair skin. Mohegans are bound together not only by race, but also by lineage, heritage, nationhood and an oral tradition. The 1994 Tribal Constitution conferred membership upon those who traced their ancestry to the 1861 Tribal Roll and who have remained involved in Tribal activities.


According to this - I am a Mohegan Indian. Nevertheless, I won't include it on the app.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Ilcapo, who didn't say that you were involved with the Mohegan tribe
If you have self indentified as a Mohegan, I don't see why you wouldn't put it down on the application, if your grandfather is an active member
( The only additions to their closed list are children of members)
http://www.mohegan.nsn.us/pressroom/faq.aspx

By Xdad (Xdad) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:59 pm: Edit

The 1994 Tribal Constitution conferred membership upon those who traced their ancestry to the 1861 Tribal Roll and who have remained involved in Tribal activities.

According to this - I am a Mohegan Indian

Ilcapo, have you remained involved in tribal activities?

From your original post, one could assume that, expect for your grandfather telling you that his father was an Indian who was forced to abandon the tradition, you have had no contacts with the tribe. It is pretty clear that the word AND in this sentence "and who have remained involved in Tribal activities." is not an afterthought.

I noticed your objection to my earlier characterization; your last post reinforced my original belief! Just ask yourself if this would matter to you, if college admissions were not involved.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:04 pm: Edit

My grandfather has confirmed that he is on the list...the only way for me to have gotten in is through "lineage documentation". I just didn't realize that I had to do this earlier....

Actually Xdad, I could be making a nice chunk off of the Mohegan Casino profits - but I think its too late. I think the reason they closed new membership is because they didn't want anyone coming out of the woodwork (like me)

Oh well!

(and no, I haven't been involved in tribal activities, cause this was just revealed to me about a year ago!)

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:28 pm: Edit

So..I've been thinking about this for a while

My grandfather has long told me that his father....

Well I am sure the other parents can see where I was coonfused, when you get on the other side of 30, or 40, a long time is generally over a year period.
I am having trouble assimilating that the 70's were over 30 years ago, and the fact that summer is over and Halloween and all the rest of the holidays are just around the corner.
My youngest in high school/ no way!

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

lol sorry for the confusion!

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Rhonda, going a few posts back, I didn't mean to imply that Yale would accept a student's undocumented claim that he had native American ancestry. I do not advocate dishonest applications. I was making the point that evidently one doesn't need to be involved in tribal activities in order to claim native American status, and apparently colleges take seriously applications from students who have very little link to the tribe.

Ilcapo, do you have any information at all in writing? Is this a question you might like to pose to the adcoms?

In any case, you do have a story to tell about the loss of your grandfather's identity and what it has meant to discover your roots. A possible essay?

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 08:59 am: Edit

Aparent -- I think it differs from tribe to tribe. I think the colleges' view, and to me it is a reasonable one, is that if a particular tribe believes you satisfy the membership criteria, that is good enough. Some tribes may have "tribal involvement" as a criterion, others won't. Some have blood quantum requirements, others have lineage documentation requirements, etc.