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I'm only hearing Duke mentioned in certain circles.....and not the most (what I would consider) talented......son's school might not have a relationship with Duke...who knows.

But, the stats are impressive and the location seems great.

Am I missing somehting? Why not Duke???

By Dke (Dke) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 07:31 pm: Edit

this is where the north/south thing comes in...kids at manhattan private schools might not seriously consider a southern school where someone from the south or midwest would think very differently about Duke, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest or Tulane.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 07:35 pm: Edit

I'm wondering how diverse the mindset is....socially (this is son's new focus...social diversity...which, according to him, has nothing to do with race) Son has some convictions about Duke that came from who knows where. It fits his optimal school profile is so many ways..but he's heard........

Anyway, he's planning on attending the local info session......but he's so convinced..

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 07:48 pm: Edit

S went to one of the most well known (northern) prep schools in the country. He is at Duke, and he couldn't think of a better choice for himself. He was accepted at many fine schools, but in the end Duke was (and is) his top choice. Close to 17,000 students applied this year for a freshman class of around 1600. I guess it may depend on where you live, but Duke certainly receives a lot of applications!

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 07:59 pm: Edit

"Son has some convictions about Duke that came from who knows where."

I have no idea what that means. So far my son has witnessed a tremendous amount of social diversity. Like most campuses, Duke is the kind of place where it can be as "diverse" as you want it to be.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Duke awareness really depends on where you live. In the Boston area, there's not much mention because of a variety of factors: distance, admissions difficulty etc. And for similar reasons, Duke does not recruit too heavily from here. Other good schools, like Northwestern, Wash U. etc., have the same geography problem.

Unless you're concerned about bragging rights, I would not sweat it.

However, what I would sweat, if your kid likes a "locally lesser discussed" school, is the attitude of that school's adcoms to your region. For example, because Duke is not a top choice from kids around here, it seems the bar is higher (the old yield issue, I suspect). So ask questions if you need to.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Duke is a great school, still somewhat regional but working hard to break out of that. It has a pre-professional bent, math, science, econ. It still has some vague flavor of the South, but is not very "Southern" compared to Vandy. Massdad's comment about the yield issue is interesting - that may be true in some instances where a particular adcom has been "burned". THey seemed numbers driven when we visited, but that might be a wrong impression.

I'm not sure what you mean by "social diversity" - frats are still big there, and everyone, regardless of race, creed, etc, goes nuts over the basketball season. Most of the students we met though were "unfratlike", more urban.

By 2dsdad (2dsdad) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 12:09 am: Edit

Don't know about social diversity but geographic diversity is reflected in recent stats:

23% of students come from the South (11% from North Carolina), 21% from the Mid-Atlantic states, 15% from the Northeast. By state of origin I thought the rank was NC #1 then NY or NJ #2. Something like that. It is not as "southern" a school as UNC or Davidson.

Duke grad from so long ago that my personal experience is no longer pertinent to current applicants, but I grew up in CT and went to a boarding school in western MA.

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:53 am: Edit

Son did an internship in cancer research at Duke this summer and really liked the facilities, the professors, the high-end technology and the campus and people. We moved to NC from the west coast last year so the "southern" atmosphere is very prevalent at son's rural high school but son said it was not like that at all at Duke. He said on campus it reminded him very much of campuses in Northern Cali. The groups he was working in were very diverse, and as that he is a URM, it is something he would notice. Again, Duke is in complete contrast to his high school which is located about 30 minutes away. You would not know that they were in close proximity to each other.

He really enjoyed being on campus all summer and Duke is on his college list (he's a junior) when it was not originally. Duke went on, and after our visit to Boston, MIT came off. Go figure.

Kat

By Idler (Idler) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 09:58 am: Edit

Momsdream: Maybe you need to travel in younger circles: among better students here on the Phila Main Line Duke is held in very high esteem.At a local picnic for Stanford students an older parent expressed disbelief that my son had a hard time choosing between Duke and Stanford, an opinion shared by none of the future Stanford freshmen, who responded to the parent's comment with incredulity. Also, I don't think it's fair to hang the "regional" rap on Duke. There may have been some truth in that 30 years ago, but as is sometimes mentioned here on CC, Southerners think of it as a "Northern" school, and the class profile bears out that it has a national makeup. By all means visit yourself, and you'll see what I mean.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

Momsdream, if your son likes Penn he should also like Duke. I think they are VERY similar schools in terms of social atmosphere. Duke isn't in an urban center (positive or negative??) and has nicer weather. Overall Penn students may be a shade more sophisticated and worldly. My sons attended a fairly small NE public where the top 5% of the class routinely get into top 10 schools and the bottom 5% don't go to college. My son was interested in Duke because of friends who gave a really great tour -- and we all know how great tours impact a young person's college impressions LOL. The Guidance dept tried to discourage him from applying because a couple of years earlier one of their top students had been rejected while being accepted early to Chicago, RD Dartmouth, etc and later taken off the waitlist to Yale. GC had actually written Duke a letter inquiring what in the world was up and was told (hearsay) that student just didn't have the stats. Rumour is Duke is very stat driven and this applicant was not val or sal in a school which ranks. I think Duke is worth the application fee just to take a chance on the scholarships. Who knows how they decide on those but who knows how colleges decide anything?

By Cangel (Cangel) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 10:47 am: Edit

Duke is still somewhat regional in the sense that to the average person down here talk of a child going to Duke is met with "AAAhhhh, a smart kid", i.e. much respect, while news of an acceptance to Penn would be - "Wow, you'll get to see Joe Paterno coach his last games". The school itself, I'm sure, thinks nationally. It's probably harder for a Southerner to get in these days, but I bet the yield from the South is very high.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 01:21 pm: Edit

Duke is very hot here. Has been for quite a while. Was not 20 or so years ago when my B was there. He always says he would not get in these days with the selectivity what it has become.

By Idler (Idler) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Cangel

By Cangel (Cangel) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 03:25 pm: Edit

I think I get from Momsdream's original posts, that her son has a bad impression of Duke, while on paper it seems like a good fit. Speaking as the been there, done that person - Momsdream, don't say a word in the info session! One particular college both DH (who truly never expresses an opinion to our daughter) and I thought would be a good choice for our girl - she of course hated. Now she loves 2 other schools that to me are for all practical purposes the same as school A, so it is not about reality, it's about what goes on in their own minds.
There are thousands of good schools, I guess perception is as good a discriminator as Princeton Review - after all s/he has to happy with his choice!

By Bookworm (Bookworm) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 03:38 pm: Edit

lots of southern kids go to Duke for the TIP program, and fall in love with the Gothic library and beautiful setting. Unless parents were born in NE, Duke is as far north as they want their kids to go (at least, thats what I hear). I've only heard positives

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:57 am: Edit

We visited Duke with my daughter, expecting it to be high on her list. It's supposed to be a great school, but it wasn't my D's cup of tea.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 08:01 am: Edit

That's ok, ID. I'm not sure that one would expect someone who applied ED to a small liberal LAC to be attracted to Duke. That's why we have choices.

And in NC, I think it is a glass of sweet tea, not a "cup of tea". LOL

By Megsdad (Megsdad) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Sokkermom,
"I'm not sure that one would expect someone who applied ED to a small liberal LAC to be attracted to Duke"......

I guess there is an exception to every statement. My daughter actually applied to several liberal LAC's and to Duke, Vandy, William & Mary and UVA. Our family has had the distinct impression that Duke ranks right up there with the best of the best, including the ivys. Our visit to Duke confirmed that impression. It is one of the finest looking campuses in the country, in addition to being academically superior.
I guess we are somewhat biased in our opinion, coming from the south, but you need not make any apologies about being accepted to Duke.

In the end, it came down to a choice of Duke or Wellesley for our daughter. We are big on single gender education, having successfully seen her older brother go that route. But there were several other very good reasons why she ended up going to Wellesley. BTW, she is extremely happy with her choice.

One more thing... one of the things she misses the most about being in Boston is no sweet tea!!

Is your son using "The Facebook"? It started at Harvard and is in most of the northeast schools. I think it has added Duke and other schools to their list. It is a way for college kids to interact and get to know one another. Wellesley girls meet all kinds of MIT and Harvard guys through what seems to be a safe method of interaction.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Megsdad,

Great choice of schools!

(The LAC comment was directed at ID somewhat in jest, because he has posted many many many times about the virtues of a particular LAC and his negative view of a particular school on tobacco road.)

I am not really sure if my son has used the "Facebook". I do know that Duke sent us a copy of a nice yearbook type publication with information and pictures of all the entering freshmen at Duke. It's a nice way for the students to get to know a bit about their classmates.

I'm not quite sure what your comment about making apologies about being accepted to Duke meant. If anything, my son probably invokes (somewhat humble, I hope) bragging rights when talking about his school. He is so proud and excited to be at Duke. Every time he calls home he seems more enamored with it. (He chose Duke over many wonderful programs, including the UVA Echols program). I ran in to his seventh grade teacher at my daughter's open house recently. The teacher's jaw dropped when we told him where our son had matriculated. His response was, "I must have done something right." Duke is very highly thought of up here in the north, not too far from Boston.

BTW, so is your daughter's choice! (Unfortunately, my son would not have been accepted there.)

By Parentofteen (Parentofteen) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Sokkermom,

Glad to hear that your son loves Duke as much as my freshman daughter does! She, also, is so happy and excited every time we talk to her on the phone. Her professors are so personable and actually strive to make their courses very interesting. My daughter has found so many extra-curriculars to fill her hours that she has actually had to drop a few since the first weeks.

Will your son be going home for fall break? We will go to pick up our daughter on Friday and look so forward to having her home for a long weekend. Although she is only two hours from home, she chooses to stay at Duke - definitely a sign of someone enamored with her college choice!

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Cangel: I'll bet that Penn would be delighted to have Joe Paterno coach his last games there -
if he ever retires from coaching at Penn State.

By Garland (Garland) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:34 pm: Edit

D of S: I think he was being ironic about people's perceptions of Penn.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 07:16 am: Edit

Hi Parentofteen.

Son is actually flying home on Friday night for fall break. It was a last minute decision, and we found cheap airfare. Columbus day weekend is always a big soccer tournament weekend, and he will get to watch little sister play in a game or two. She is very excited that he is coming home and misses him a lot. (She has not seen him in about eight weeks.) It worked out well, becaues he flies out Tuesday and I have to go to the airport that day anyway for a business trip. He also gets to vote (absentee) on Tuesday morning, something he really wanted to do.

We are actually planning on going to Parent's weekend in a few weeks, so we'll get to see him again!

By Binx (Binx) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 03:26 am: Edit

For what it's worth, Duke is the only school my S applied to that did not offer him admission. (He was waitlisted). He was accepted by several Ivies, and given full or partial rides everywhere else he applied. He is a senior now at Penn, and has loved every minute. (BTW, has a t-shirt with the Univ. logo, and the words "Not Penn State" across the top. ) Graduated 4th of 750, 7 APs - all 5s. SAT 1550. Lots of ECs, but no athletics. We did notice that, apart from the main scholarship, there were none available at Duke for white males, so they obviously are not needing white male applicants. Of course we try to analyze "what went wrong" but it is pointless -- He was just one of many outstanding applicants, and his number didn't get picked. Penn, however, was his first choice, so he's never looked back. I was more impressed by Duke than he was, I think.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit

"I think I get from Momsdream's original posts, that her son has a bad impression of Duke, while on paper it seems like a good fit. Speaking as the been there, done that person - Momsdream, don't say a word in the info session! "

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Duke seems to match his desires on location and size. But, my concern was that he came home from the info session ready to write it off. We know a few people who have attended Duke and all of them went for science....and wound up in med school. Son isn't looking to take this route. We haven't found anyone who attended and wound up in a field non-science/engineering related. Also, son said he was turned off by the continued reference to the sports teams during the info session. I think he came home with the impression that maybe the sports were too much of a focus.

Anyway, after paying careful attention to son's likes and dislikes I've come to the conclusion that what he really wants is a strong LAC (focus on humanities), with the size of a mid-sized University (5-8k students)...located in a large, relatively urban environment and in a warm climate.

Does one exist?

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Well Momsdream, don't we all want that school, I know my daughter does, but she wants out of the warm climat! Duke is becoming an investment banking recruitment site, and has always produced a number of lawyers, so although you are right, science and doctors is its prestige in the South as well, that's not the entire story.

(My experience with DD is that once they get something in their head, you may as well hang it up - he may change his mind, he may not, but anything you say will only make it worse.)

Also (and I'm putting on my flameproof vest now), the other thing Duke is known for in the South, (particularly in the medical community), besides its excellence, is Duke's awareness of its own excellence. Honestly, based on a lot of prior experience, I was prepared to not like Duke when we toured it as an undergraduate institution, because of "attitude". But, I was pleasantly surprised, I got a feeling of great energy on campus, and while the students seemed definitely the goal oriented, pre-professional types, they seemed more down to earth than I had expected (sorry, all you great Duke grads, just one person's small opinion).

Sooo, I have three words for you - Wake Forest and William & Mary and Rice - LACish, mid-sized (well not Rice, but it "feels" bigger), relatively urban (well maybe not W&M), warm climate.
Other choices that may fit better, when his criteria become clearer -
Emory (less LACish, more pre-pro), Vandy (less LACish, sports in perspective), Davidson (true LAC, suburban, ?too small), Univ of Richmond (bigger than Davidson, really a LAC), Rhodes College (LAC, urban)
I say clearer criteria, because to me a LAC means small/smaller, not necessarily completely humanities focused - perhaps less of a pre-professional bent? The Southern LACs (and maybe really the NE, too, I don't know) are heavily populated by the D&L (MD and JD) offspring, with a good number of minister and professor/teacher kids as well. They tend to be more interested in education and learning than their peers (and often high school classmates) at SEC unis, although most ARE pre-professional and there is a healthy contingent of legacies who have a family business to go into, and who have time to have a good time.

I know nothing except what I have read, but what about Pomona? Too far from home? Anyone else want to chime in?

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:10 pm: Edit

My first reaction to Momsdream is that it will be tough to find an LAC with a student population graeter than 2000 students.

The non-LAC schools that came to mind (meeting most of the other criteria) were William and Mary, and Vanderbilt.

Wake Forest is also another impressive (non-LAC) school that meets many of the criteria. It is possible that they may have too big of a sports culture for her son. My H and son visited the campus and thought it was beautiful.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 04:22 pm: Edit

"Momsdream: Maybe you need to travel in younger circles: among better students here on the Phila Main Line Duke is held in very high esteem.At a local picnic for Stanford students an older parent expressed disbelief that my son had a hard time choosing between Duke and Stanford, "

Idler-

I'm rather young for the parent of a HS senior....so I doubt that I'm out of touch (yet! lol). I guess your refernce to the mail line is in line with what I've realized about various "circles" in Philadelphia......and perhaps why I (in my area) am not hearing a peep about Duke. I have no doubts that Duke is a fine school. I never questioned that. I questioned why I never hear it mentioned. But, I live in a very artsy, liberal, progressive area in Phila(sometimes refererred to as the "PhD ghetto"). I hear about top schools all the time.....but not Duke. I was just wondering why. I think it may just be the "culture" of my community. Though, strangely, son's school is sending lots of kids to Chicago, MIT, Cornell...which I also fall into the "science" crowd.

Now that I've typed all of this, I realize something......

I don't hear much about the Southern schools...period.

Ok, maybe this is it....
Kids who are from this area, but are talented enough to get into Duke are also getting into the top New England/NY schools; and are more prone to go for Northern schools.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

>> Kids who are from this area, but are talented enough to get into Duke are also getting into the top New England/NY schools; and are more prone to go for Northern schools.

There is a strong strain of northeast elitist snobbery in college selection. This is one factor that makes many of the southern and midwest schools such good "admissions values" -- although Duke is not a particularly good admissions value.

We visted many of the southern schools being mentioned in this thread. Emory (and Atlanta) really appealed to my daughter...to the point that it may have been her second choice after Swarthmore, although her criteria were somewhat skewed by the fact that she did not want to go to college 2 hours from home in New England.

By Nceph (Nceph) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 05:01 pm: Edit

I think anyone considering Duke may want to check out the following link

http://www.duke.edu/~stuart/intellectuallife.html

I don't know too much about this professor, but he's written some other interesting pieces, including some op-ed pieces that are of general interest that can be accessed from his webpage

http://www.duke.edu/~stuart/

Certainly he's less of a cheerleader for Duke than your average admissions officer or student tour guide.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

I am not too sure that I would take the article above too seriously. It was written three years ago by a Geology professor. Is it possible that Geology does not attract the motivated kids, and he is miffed by that fact? I doubt it is a required class. LOL

Keep in mind that Duke has a new President with a great vision. I am not at all worried about the academic climate there!

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:16 pm: Edit

It would be interesting to see the 20 or so schools on Prof. Stuart's list of rigorously intellectual undergrad institutions.

I think he is absolutely right. Rigorous academic interest is optional at the vast majority of colleges and universities and the percentage of students who avail themselves of the opportunity does probably fail to reach critical mass.

I don't think his op-ed piece is intended to apply exclusively to Duke.

By Lfill (Lfill) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

There is a great deal of truth to what Stuart says. The correlation between strenght of the Greek system and intellectual rigor (or lack there of) is very real. The drinking culture at Duke, Dartmouth and many other schools has a major effect on academics. In the academic community, such schools are widely recognized for being popular among students for less than academic reasons. How brave of this man to write so honestly.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:03 pm: Edit

This raises a good question...

How are colleges really measured?

Selectivity coming in doesn't necessarily equate to the education of an outgoing college senior.

We're so focused on selectivity of HS seniors...but, hey, they have been educated by their respective high schools. They get into these selective colleges...and then what??? I see all of these colleges being ranked based on how they select their incoming class. I see nothing about what happends to their outgoing seniors....except what % of them graduate within 5 years. So?

I mean, ok, your admcoms do a good job of selecting HS kids with certain SAT scores, GPAs, ranks, backgrounds etc.....so your admissions staff is good. Then what?

How is this measured?

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

"Selectivity coming in doesn't necessarily equate to the education of an outgoing college senior."

Based on what I see among the undergrads I know, it is possible for students at the most selective schools to graduate with a decent gpa and very little knowledge but this is a choice. Any student who desires an education at Duke or any comparable school will be given all the opportunities and attention s/he could wish.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:26 pm: Edit

>> How is this measured?

Ah, the $160,000 question!

There are so many different factors that make up the college experience that it is nearly impossible to rank schools. For example, I was quite honest with my daughter that "academics" are just a small part of the college experience and that there is nothing wrong with a school that lets you choose to be fully engaged academically or not. That's really the difference. Some schools provide ways to coast; a few don't don't.

The best measure of pure academics would probably be per capita PhD or doctoral production among a school's grads. That is certainly going to be a good indicator of students who are heavily engaged in their academic interests because getting a PhD is a major pain in the butt.

Here's a link to per capita PhD production (the right hand column is for the most recent decade):

http://web.centre.edu/ir/student/OverallBaccOrigins.pdf

Taking a non-scientific look down the list (and allowing for some music/art colleges where the only terminal degree is a doctoral program), I would say that this list does a pretty good job of ranking the academic intensity of undergrad colleges and universities.

For example, there is little doubt that U Chicago is, on average, a more demanding school than Dartmouth or Duke. Doesn't mean that there are very serious students at Dartmouth and Duke, but on average, it's harder to "coast" at U Chicago.

The list heavily favors small undergrad colleges...for good reason. These schools tend to self-select academic types to start with AND the small-size, close faculty/student interaction makes it very difficult to hide. The average students are academically engaged because they stand out like a sore thumb if they are not. But, even among the small colleges, places that are notorious for serious academics, like Reed and Earlham, show up higher than some better known competitors.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

>> Based on what I see among the undergrads I know, it is possible for students at the most selective schools to graduate with a decent gpa and very little knowledge but this is a choice. Any student who desires an education at Duke or any comparable school will be given all the opportunities and attention s/he could wish.

I think the same statement would be equally true for relatively non-selective state universities. The education is there for the taking, but as the size of the school (among other factors) increases, the onus is placed more squarely on the individual student's shoulders.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:37 pm: Edit

I would think one would have to look at entrance in to select graduate schools as an important measurement. The Wall Street Journal list has been posted many times on different threads. Schools like Duke do very well. Another extremely valuable "measurement" is overall employment potential. Duke grads have a very high rate of employment upon graduation. To be honest, in today's world, that is just as important as doctoral production in my opinion!

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 08:03 pm: Edit

The problem with surveying admission into the five top med, five top law, and five top Biz schools is that you are looking only at the very top of Duke class -- the students who are going to be academically engaged no matter where they attend undergrad college.

Although we all think our kids are 'special', what is really more important is academic climate for the 'average' kid at these colleges.

I think that what the Duke professor was arguing is that he feels it's not enough to simply offer a superb "finishing" school for certain types of students on certain pre-determined career paths. He would prefer (perhaps wrongly) a more intensive academic/intellectual teaching environment. It could certainly be argued that he probably made a bad career choice choosing a major research university if that's what he was looking for.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit

According to his bio, the guy has been teaching at Duke since 1990, and worked in a governmental agency prior to that. How can he possibly know how students at other institutions compare intellectually? Maybe his teaching and or subject material does not intellectually motivate students. That may have nothing to do with what institution he teaches at, or how much beer the students drink. If he is that disappointed at Duke, why doesn't he get another job wher he might find students that are more intellectually engaged?

By Lfill (Lfill) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Sokkermom, are you a Blue Devil? Don't shoot the messenger! Stuart brings forward important thought that tells the truth not only about Duke, but about several selective schools. Dartmouth's last pres went public, too, in an effort to change the culture. Williams is tackling these issues. The party culture we send out kids into, many without knowing, needs to be discussed. I applaud Stuart for saying what many in academe would like too.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Lfill,
I'm not a blue devil, just a better cheerleader than Mr. Rojstaczer I guess. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Should he be applauded for discrediting the university that he has taught at for 14 years? (I don't applaud that.) The fact that he teaches hydrology gives him no more credibility than anyone else in my opinion.

I wasn't shooting the messenger, just pointing out the the "messenger" is only a single voice with a somewhat biased opinion, that's all.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Sokkermom, I really applaud your support of your son's college and Duke is an excellent school but imho there is something of an anti-intellectual atmosphere among SOME students; it is the overall school culture imho. It is very different, imho, for the focus students and other students who choose special programs and one reason they do so is to be with other obviously engaged students. This is not unique to Duke. I could say the same about many (maybe most?) other top 10 universities and several top LAC's based on what I hear from current undergrads and from profs at the schools. IMHO it is not the fault of the university or the college if students fail to take advantage of opportunities. I do think it is depressing for profs to have students who appear to not be engaged. MHO- at many schools this is just an appearance because showing enthusiasm about studies is just not the accepted thing. The appearance of indifference and being too cool for school rules imho... that doesn't mean the students aren't working themselves silly but they will never let on. It does sometimes do them a disservice with their profs I believe.

By Lfill (Lfill) on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

The last thing I meant to do was offend a proud mom! I know the feeling as a mother of a Dartmouth son. I take it on the chin from my fellow professors often. My son loves Dartmouth. We are less in love with the school's values. I wish I had paid more attention to 'reputation" when we were guiding him, our oldest. Princeton son is getting a very different experience. Where there is smoke there is fire. There are schools, Dartmouth and Duke included, that are widely known to be party schools, less intellectual environments with cultures that seem to have endured the test of time and diversity. It's my opinion that parents should be aware of what a school's culture is in guiding their children to a good fit. I'll be the first to admit that I failed with my oldest. 2 more to go and I hope to do better!

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:34 am: Edit

"Though, strangely, son's school is sending lots of kids to Chicago, MIT, Cornell...which I also fall into the "science" crowd."
Getting back to the OP -- Momsdream, Chicago is AMAZING in most of the humanities. Strengths in science and in the humanities are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . .

And to add to the discussion directly above -- I agree with Lfill and ID. No offense to Sokkermom -- Duke is one of the most prestigious schools in the country with abundant opportunities and resources. But the larger question of true academic rigor and true love of learning is an important one. I work with third, fourth, and fifth graders and have daily, intensive contact with TAG (talented and gifted) students. The student who really delves into his or her subject, getting lost to the world, following what he or she learns and going above and beyond the assignment is so RARE. These very bright kids are instead learning to carefully look at the assignment and to ask a lot of questions so that they can do exactly what is expected with the least amount of work. Who needs to read a whole book anymore -- they want Internet hits that give them information in the first paragraph or two.
This is where I would hope a really great LAC or great introductory class in a larger school would take a bright kid and really set them on fire to think out of the box and delve deeper.

By Kiddielit (Kiddielit) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:38 am: Edit

By "introductory" above, I meant a freshman colloquium or some such, not necessarily Psych or Bio 101!

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:19 am: Edit

Kiddielit, love your post-- wish my kids could have been in your class!

"The student who really delves into his or her subject, getting lost to the world, following what he or she learns and going above and beyond the assignment is so RARE." IMHO these students, who sometimes will want access to grad courses, will be fine in less than intellectually rigorous campus cultures if they can find a like minded group, however small, at the school. And I think they do. Some of them don't want LAC's because of a perception of limited course offerings and research opportunities... though imho this is not always a valid view. The others "bright kids ..instead learning to carefully look at the assignment and to ask a lot of questions so that they can do exactly what is expected with the least amount of work" --- if they attend one of these preprofessional schools will be accepted to law school, med school, b school. Students will be happy. Parents will be happy. I am not sure how many more professors we need LOL Duke has wonderful introductory courses of the type you describe, taught by world class professors, but like at many universities students will only get out of the course what they put into it.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:35 am: Edit

Duke & Dartmouth as anti-intellectual; Princeton as elitist; Yale & grade inflation: maybe we are getting a bit nitpicky??? After the student arrives on campus in the fall most schools are just perfect. And we are talking about some of the most highly regarded colleges in the country.

By Par72 (Par72) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

Duke and Stanford offer so much more than the Ivies and if a student wants a well-rounded education, those 2 are tough to beat.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

Thanks for the follow-up Lfill. I have never discredited another college or university in defense of the one that my son happened to choose. I have always contended that fit is important, and will continue to do so. What I do find incredulous (not really offensive) is that many comments that some of the posters on cc make are based on hearsay and perception.

Here's my version to date, based on one kid's experience. (and for the benefit of some, this is not meant to be bragging, but rather presenting some very up to date facts). After not seeing my son for two months, we picked him up last night at the airport around midnight as he is home for a couple of days on spring break. I swear the kid was so energized.(still in bed now, however.) We were all up until 2:00am talking about his expereiences thus far, and then he and Dad were up for another hour. I could hear lots of laughter. What a happy sound.

Again not to brag, but share, here are some of the things I learned. Readers can decide if this is a good environment. For him it seems to be.

He is required to read the Wall Street Journal Daily and be prepared to discuss it in his Econ class. He has actually joined an economics club were they discuss investment strategies, the economy, and world issues.
His writing seminar has 12 students.
He was required to sign a document adhering to the school's Honor Code.
He was asked to be a frshman representative on a Student Committee that works with the Dean of Students focusing on campus issues.
He is a finalist for a scholarship sponsored by a community service oriented fraternity that promotes the Balanced Man Program for select freshmen. This program is a national leadership development program.
He is a member of a varsity athletic team and trains about 20 hours per week. He has met many wonderful kids on the team.
His dorm interacts with other dorms by having "neighborhood" cookouts. His best friends are from California, New Mexico, Indiana, and Massachusetts.
His dorm won the ultimate frisbee competition in the "Dorm Wars". Friendly intramural competition.
He has attended several concerts on the quad.(non-alcoholic)
He attended a lecture where the guest speaker was the subject of a book all the freshmen were required to read over the summer.
He inadvertently attended a career fair held on campus for seniors. He has already spoken with a few companies about possible summer internships.
He actually does find time to study, and the classes are challenging and engaging.
I can't wait to hear more. We have a busy weekend watching little sis play soccer. The brownies are baking as we speak!