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We're in a sort of quandary here. My D (--she's applying ED to Swarthmore) is scheduled to retake the SAT I next weekend, and is now considering not taking it, which would be fine with me. Her SAT score last year was 1490; her SAT IIs are high; her combined ACT score was 34. Is there any reason she should go and take the SAT test? (She has been studying for it but doesn't mind if the hours she put in now won't have had any point.) If not, should she be sending out the ACT score along with the SAT scores?

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Ooooh, good question, I say send both, that ACT score (depending on the conversion chart one uses)is slightly higher than the SAT - nothing lost sending that. My gut is don't worry, but...

THere is something, though, about that psychological 1500 barrier. Are her scores lopsided? If yes, maybe retake (800 verbal, 690 math, for example, getting that math up is probably realistic, and if the verbal dropped to say 780, it wouldn't be that big a deal). How many times has she taken it? If more than once already, maybe don't retake. Also, if she's only taken it one time, and she needs to break 1500 for merit money at another school (don't forget the safeties!), definitely a reason to retake.

It's a hard choice, but luckily, probably little downside to a decision either way. Time for more knowledgeable folks to weigh in.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Last year I'd have answered differently, but this year after some reflection and experience, I'd say take it again. It all depends on whether she thinks she could improve her score based on practice tests and PSAT indications, SAT II scores, or whatever else you have to go by. A 1560 is regarded dirrerently than a 1490.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

If her application gives Swarthmore a reason to want her, a 1490 is plenty high enough to not be a problem. If her application does not give them a reason to want her, then it won't matter what her SATs are. Historically, Swat has turned down just over half of their Verbal 800 scorers and just under half of their Math 800 scorers.

If she's only taken the SATs once, I would probably go ahead and take them again. It won't matter for Swarthmore, but if she doesn't get accepted to Swat, it could make a difference elsewhere. Some schools are SAT-happy in their admissions. Also, I believe that cracking the 1500 barrier is key to merit-aid considerations at many schools.

By Searchingavalon (Searchingavalon) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Thanks for the responses! To answer some of the questions--She's only taken the SAT once. She has a 50 point difference between the English and the math (higher in verbal). Her SAT scores are nearly the same as her PSAT scores. It's conceivable that she could do a little better the second time around. What I can't figure out is--to be eligible for merit-aid consideration, does she need to get the 1500 in one SAT sitting, or can it be the combination of the highest English and highest math scores?

By Perry (Perry) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Most colleges will take the best verbal and math scores from each test to combine them in one composite score. Thus, your daughter has nothing to lose by re-taking the test, and possibly could significantly increase her score above 1500.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 07:51 pm: Edit

One exception to the composite score practice are the UCs. They take only the best sitting.

Last year my D had a 1480 after her first sitting. She retook it with the goal of raising her math score above 750, which would have made her eligible for a scholarship at a certain school (to which she ended up not applying). On the retake she succeeded in raising both math and verbal to a new score of 1560 (800V), which had the happy effect of removing all SAT I doubts no matter where she chose to apply.

Based on D's experience, I'd say retake it.

By Jrpar (Jrpar) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Since your daughter has already put in the time prepping for the test, I agree, why not just go ahead and take it again? And definitely send in the ACT - that's a great score. My son had a similar score on the SAT I, but has decided not to take it again. His practice test scores were all pretty much around the score he received, so he just didn't think it was worth it. An admissions counselor at my alma mater (a top LAC), however, encouraged him to take it again, so clearly the top colleges would love to see 1500+.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 09:29 pm: Edit

If she sends all current scores to colleges she intends to apply to (if ED doesn't come thru), she doesn't need to list Swat on next test. If she does improve SAT, then could pay to have newest scores sent to them.
anyway, I think this could be an option, and may help her relax during test

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:07 pm: Edit

I agree with others...go for the 1500. Since you have another chanace, why not? It's so much easier to think that all you have to do is raise on side (math vs. verbal).....not sure which to focus on...strong side weaker side?

By Patsmom (Patsmom) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 07:28 am: Edit

My S had the same dilemma in junior year. He had scored a 1420 but decided to study "10 Real SATs" with hopes of breaking the 1500 barrier. After taking several of the book's tests and scoring in the 1530 range, he retook the SAT and hit 1600! You just never know! I say she should retake it. She has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Good luck!

By Wjb (Wjb) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 08:52 am: Edit

I am going to weigh in with a different opinion. According to the conversion tables, an ACT score of 34 is equivalent to an SAT score of 1520. That's a great score. While I do not know about Swarthmore's admission process specifically, I know several kids in our Midwest community who were admitted to top schools last year, including Princeton and Dartmouth, on the strength of their ACT scores; the kid who got into Princeton had a score of 34. Do you live in the Midwest or some other area where ACTs are the norm? If so, I'd submit the ACT score and call it a day. If you live in the East, where ACTs are not commonly taken, the story may be different. There's a thread in the archives talking about some anecdotal evidence that adcoms may think East Coast folks are trying to game the system by submitting ACTs rather than SATs.

By Gr8kids (Gr8kids) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:02 am: Edit

Honestly, I don't know if it's the better thing to retake it - maybe yes, maybe no. She has a 1490, which is extremely high, applying ED, which should increase her chances, high SAT II's, and her 34 translates into a score that would be well over 1500. The chance to improve it certainly there, but she could just as easily score less - and that happens frequently (take a look at her SAT report - it'll tell you statistically what her chances are of improving in her verbal/math scores). While you prepare for a scenario where she would score higher, what do you do if she doesn't, or even repeats her previous score?

Only you know if her 1490/34 is a good representation of her ability, or if you think she can score substantially above that w/ a retake. You'll have to determine if the risk is worth it, and if she thinks she really can improve. If so, great, and if not, I'd leave it alone.

Remember that practical preparation isn't enough - kids really need to be psychologically ready to retake it, too.

If both her verbal and math scores are in the 700 range, or at least one of them at 690 or higher, (and by definition a 1490 would translate at the least a 690 in one and an 800 in another), I'd probably advise mine to leave well enough alone. But it's your decision - no one else knows your daughter, her abilities, other stats, or anything else.

Seriously I would probably concentrate on other things, unless there is some really strong reason for her to score higher. A high SAT isn't the only thing they consider strongly.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:19 am: Edit

When my older S took the SAT and got a 690 on one section, his GC strongly advised him to retake it to get over the 700 psychological barrier. "It's like saying something cost $2.99 instead of $3.00 but in reverse." In this case, there is absolutely nothing to lose for a retake, and much to gain if she can not only break the 1500 barrier, but raise her score significantly. And since she's done the prep, all it takes is one morning and the SAT fee. Well worth it, I'd say.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:24 am: Edit

Score cancellation is another option -- but she would need to do it immediately, based on her feeling of the test. My son had almost the same scores. He stopped with one ACT. He retook the SAT hoping to break the 1500 mark, but knew right away that the test did not go as well the second time, so he cancelled them within the limited period (before they were ever graded).

When did your daughter take her first tests? If she took them mid junior year, there is a possibility that they could go up (but as previously stated, the odds are just as likely that they can go down). I think (perhaps incorrectly), that having a single set of scores taken mid.Jr. year that are that high, might also make a favorable impression on admissions. I know I would be impressed with a student that scored that high early on.

By Searchingavalon (Searchingavalon) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:02 am: Edit

No, we're not mid-westerners; we live in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. We never thought of moving to the midwest to help her candidacy, though we did briefly consider relocating to Antarctica, since it seems there are very few, if any, candidates applying to colleges from there and it would have been our only real shot at diversity.

Back to serious mode: I spoke to D this morning, and looked at all the stats on the score report. She has about a 30% chance, statistically, of staying the same or going up in Verbal, and 50% chance to up or repeat with Math.

It seems that she got 3 Verbal questions wrong, and 3 Math questions wrong. People who got 2 verbal questions wrong got 30 points higher than she did (an 800 to her 770); people who got 2 math questions wrong got 40 points higher than she did (760 to her 720). I'm not complaining or whining about the scaling, just mentioning it to explain why she thinks the idea of cancelling her scores won't work. (I broached it as I liked the idea.) She thought she did great the first time she took it, and she did; if the scaling had been a tad different, she would have gotten the 1500 then and wouldn't have to wrestle with the retake question now. If it matters at all, she'll be taking the test with exactly the same pool of students she took it with the first time around; she's a Sunday tester and takes the test with Seventh-Day Adventists and Jews who don't take Saturday tests. She's capable of getting fewer than 3 wrong on the Verbal; I wouldn't bet the farm on the likelihood that she can get fewer than 3 wrong on the math.

By Gr8kids (Gr8kids) on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 09:28 am: Edit

A 770 verbal and a 720 math are tremendous scores. Her verbal, in particular, is excellent and traditionally has been the harder to accomplish. Another thing to evaluate is what her SAT II's were. If, for example, she took Math IC or IIC, and did very well, that might offset your concern for a 720 math (which is again a wonderful score). If she has taken AP's in a math area and done well, that too would demonstrate math ability.

I understand the 1500 barrier thing and the psychological attachment to it, but you'll have to determine if you think she can improve significantly or even if she wants to retake it. And there's no guarantee even if she did score above a 1500, that her chances for admission would improve. They take into account many things, not just SAT.

Consider too what the middle 50% of accepted students are and where she stands by comparison, all her other stats (as well as what other things she has to offer a college - admission is for most colleges not a simple formula), what she wants to major in, etc., and then you and your daughter decide what's in her best interests. ED also should enhance her chances for acceptance.

Bottom line is this: you have to determine if her score a good representation of her ability, whether she can significantly improve w/ a retake, if that really will make a difference even she does, is she ready mentally for the challenge of a retake, what other things might make up for any deficits she perceives in her app, etc. If you decide yes, that's great, and if no, then that's fine, too.

It's a tough call to say whether your daughter should retake or not, but only the two of you know what's best for her. Remember that there's no perfect app for anybody.

By Gr8kids (Gr8kids) on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

And don't forget the 34 ACT, which translates into a 1500+ score. So, if you send that score, too, she has, for all intents and purposes, scored above 1500.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

Based on your assessment in your last post, I think I'd pass on a second sitting, based on the fact that it seems there is too much risk of dropping below 700 in math.

..... or at least follow the Bookworm strategy of reporting above. Requires you to pay to send the first scores to all the possible schools, and wait to send any scores from the second test until after the fact. Won't work if you have to send SAT IIs being taken later, since that'll pick up your second SAT I sitting. Good luck.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 09:15 pm: Edit

>>Consider too what the middle 50% of accepted students are and where she stands by comparison, all her other stats....<<

This type of analysis is of limited value IMO. These statistical descriptions of admitted students are confounded by the inclusion of recruited athletes, URMs, and legacies who often are admitted with significantly lower stats. Thus the means and medians are shifted deceptively lower and will not reflect reality for an applicant who is not in one of these three categories.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

My opinion is that your D's SAT scores are high enough and won't be a factor in getting accepted at selective colleges. Those are great scores. I don't feel she NEEDS to retake it. I guess there is not much to lose, however, if she does retake, given that she only took them once. If she goes down, it is not going to hurt her as they take the highest score and she has one quite high score in her pocket. So, it is personal choice if she wants to give it another shot, but I don't feel she actually NEEDS to.

Susan

By Gr8kids (Gr8kids) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Maybe this will help...

http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/institutional_research/SAT.pdf

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit

"If she goes down, it is not going to hurt her as they take the highest score and she has one quite high score in her pocket."

This raises another questions for me...

IF the student has significant (+100 plus or minus) swings in their SAT scores, does the lower score show up on the college consideration summary (meaning: would they compute and strip the lowers)?

So much of the process is subjective and based on mental perception...would the knowledge of the lower scores tend to hurt a student? How do they ignore the lower and only focus on the higher.

By Alita (Alita) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 07:40 pm: Edit

quick q- would a 1500 ever be worth retaking, or is it a waste of time (score comes from 2 diff seatings, 60pt. gap between scores)?

By Aim78 (Aim78) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 09:24 pm: Edit

If you have a big raise in scores, it can only work to your advantage. They will see that you worked hard and invested the time to improve yourself. Coming back for round 2 and kicking butt is just as good as getting the high score in the first place. We still respected Rocky after he lost in Rocky III because he came back with the eye of the tiger. College admissions is no different. Or maybe it is. What do I know?

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 09:30 pm: Edit

If a student retakes the SAT and scores lower, it can be attributed to bad luck on the day. If one of the two scores is lower, but the other one is higher, it can be attributed to the student's focusing on raising one score and neglecting the other. It is not taken as a sign that the first and higher set of scores was a fluke. That is why a student who scored 1490 has nothing to lose by trying to break the 1500 psychological barrier.

By Searchingavalon (Searchingavalon) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Well, we weighed all the pros and cons as per all your posts above, which I thank you for. We discussed her scores in the context of her other statistics. We ran them through the ARI index on the CC website. We looked up the mean and median scores of all the colleges she's planning to apply to. We talked about the fact that she's a humanities person rather than a math/science person, that her math scores in standardized tests have been just about exactly the same since 10th grade, and/but that her math and science grades in school are fine. We did the Top Ten list of reasons, a la David Letterman, why she shouldn't retake, as that was definitely her leaning. So, at her behest, I called the College Board to cancel the test, and now have to send out the ACT scores. There were certainly great reasons proferred here why she should retake, but she was so happy to have a list of reasons why she shouldn't that it was obvious that she really didn't want to do it. And now she has just a little less stress to deal with and can go off tomorrow to her overnight at Swarthmore with a light heart.

By Gr8kids (Gr8kids) on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Good for her! Sounds like you and your daughter made the right decision for her. Hope she enjoys her overnight! Good luck!