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Discuss.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 03:10 pm: Edit

How do we decide that a college is a "virtuous institution" anyway, judging by some of what goes on in the admissions process?

By Cyclingdad (Cyclingdad) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 07:31 am: Edit

I'm surprised that this hasn't generated more comments. Read the article if you haven't, it's very eye-opening. I wonder how the follow-up service works, if it even exists. I personnally think this is pretty shocking and the "customers" of these places are taking big risks. So now do all employers and others looking at degrees have to become experts in accreditation? Maybe an opportunity for a new service: credential vallidation.

By Jl87d (Jl87d) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 08:29 am: Edit

Funny, not long ago I was contemplating myself, 'what qualifies and individual for a degree anyway?', and then this topic comes along.

I do not see what law they were breaking by handing out these degrees. While, what these organizations are doing is wrong; I don't think it breaks any laws. It's not like the are committing fraud, they're not fraudging you a Harvard Diploma. They are certifying that you meet THEIR requirements (very low) for a degree in that field.

The problem I see is that there is no standardization in the case of many degrees; you merely meet the schools' requirements for a particular degree and they award it. At Princeton it might be 128 credits for a certain degree and it is necessary to take 'these' classes and read 'these' text books and they award you the degree.
At Yale it might be 127 credits for a certain degree and it is necessary to take 'those' classes and read 'those' text books and they award you the degree. These schools take it a drastic step farther and say 'you pay us and we'll award you the degree.' A degree in many fields is the institution you attend saying they met OUR requirements.

By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:42 am: Edit

Jl87D, while I agree that the "student" isn't a victim of fraud, the employers (including the government) and the American public are victims of fraud. Particularly, as in the cases cited in the article, when student visas are issued for non-existent schools and patients are victims of fraudulant medical degrees.

By Jl87d (Jl87d) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:58 am: Edit

"patients are victims of fraudulent medical degrees."

A medical degree recipient can't just start practicing medicine. One has to complete a minum of 3 years residency and pass an examination to be licensed to practice medicine.

By Cyclingdad (Cyclingdad) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:07 am: Edit

If the requirements for employment include a degree from an accredited college or university (usually worded so as to specify who does the accrediting), and an applicant submits a degree from a non-accredited organization, I say that's fraud. I don't think that safeguarding against such fraud is so difficult, but it does add workload (cost) to the process and could even require an extra layer of review for applicants. This is not good for any of us, except those making money by selling the degrees, and those being paid to check on all applicants. I'd be pretty concerned about this if I were an employer. As a Federal employee who has helped screen and interview applicants, I am concerned. And as a parent who is shelling out the $$ for a college education, I'm more than a little ticked off.

By Jl87d (Jl87d) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:18 am: Edit

"If the requirements for employment include a degree from an accredited college or university (usually worded so as to specify who does the accrediting), and an applicant submits a degree from a non-accredited organization, I say that's fraud."

In your opinion it's FRAUD for an applicant to apply for a job if the applicant is not qualified? Wow!
What about foreign students who's colleges don't use the same accreditation system?

By Cyclingdad (Cyclingdad) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Yes, if someone submits fraudulent credentials, then it's fraud. That's my opinion, you're welcome to yours. I don't really care to debate that issue here. The issue of foreign students is not relevant to a discussion of fake degrees, in my opinion. Good day.

By Demingy (Demingy) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 01:02 pm: Edit

"What about foreign students who's colleges don't use the same accreditation system?"

The difference is that employers know that they are dealing with a different accreditation system and can take that into consideration when hiring. This has to do with degrees that AREN'T based on the recognized accreditation system here but are being represented as being accredited.

"It's not like the are committing fraud, they're not fraudging (sic) you a Harvard Diploma."

There are some places that do sell fake Ivy diplomas.

Also, you said that there isn't standardization in the case of many degrees. Although it isn't perfect, there is SOME standard, that is why schools have to be accredited. You can receive a "degree" from a school that is not accredited, but it is supposed to be generally known that the school isn't accredited and the prospective employee will just have to take their chances as far as whether they will be hired or not. What is fraud is that many of these places are claiming to be accredited when they aren't, claiming to have a physical presence that they don't, and claiming grades that were never received.

By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Come on Jl87d, do you think someone with a fraudulent medical degree will complete a residency? Dallas police are collecting evidence as I post concerning a man practicing without a degree or a license under two aliases.

I see from your profile that you are 16. Do you think you can't be a victim of such a fraud? When you're a little older, you will have seen instances of this kind of fraud wreaking havoc on peoples' lives. I suspect you're trying to jerk posters' chains with your defense of something so indefensible. So I, like Cyclingdad, bit you farewell.

By Digmedia (Digmedia) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

A college education is more than a piece of paper. We had an employee with a PhD that seemed to know nothing about the field. He only lasted a short time before he was asked to look for a job elsewhere. When he left I checked the school he got his PhD from and it was one that presented PhDs based on "life experience" (and $$$$, of course). Too bad no one checked his background BEFORE he was hired. Thanks to the internet, at least this level of checking only takes about 10 minutes.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Diggi:

Yes, indeed. When I was an undergrad, I had to do a paper on some historical topic. I found two works, one of which was an unpublished M.A. thesis, the other a book by another author. The book, which was published later, was identical in content to the unpublished M.A. thesis. Not only had that bit of plagiarism not been caught when I did my research, but the author had become a university president and served for a time as a presidential advisor. His sins eventually caught up with him, though, very publicly.

By Strick (Strick) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 06:35 pm: Edit

So, like, would anyone be that upset if I bought a Phd just to annoy one of my bosses? Make him address me as "Doctor" and all that? ;)

Just for fun, of course.

By Demingy (Demingy) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit

You might be upset if you find yourself unemployed.....

By Jl87d (Jl87d) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 08:56 pm: Edit

"Come on Jl87d, do you think someone with a fraudulent medical degree will complete a residency?"

No! That's the point, if they practice medicine with out a license, then they need to be arrested. My point is having a Medical Degree does not just give you the right to start practicing medicine.


"Yes, if someone submits fraudulent credentials, then it's fraud."

I completely agree, however while getting a degree from one of these place may not be right; it's not fraudulent. They really did earn the degree (by wiping out their wallet of course), even though the institution is not accredited. A degree says, that you have met the institutions' standards, even if those standard are exceptionally LOW!


""What about foreign students whose colleges don't use the same accreditation system?""

The point is, their institutions are not accredited. Is it then committing fraud for some one of a non-accredited school to apply for a job with their degree? No,


"I see from your profile that you are 16."

That's really mute in this discussion, we were asked to "Discuss." I did. I feel your being age biased.

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:55 pm: Edit

It's worse than we thought:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2C3858%2C4963452-108229%2C00.html

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:07 pm: Edit

There is a difference between a school that is not accredited within the US because it does not meet standards of accreditation in the US, and one that is accredited within a different country. The latter case is more akin to state bars. Someone with a Harvard Law degree is not ipso facto entitled to practice law in Nebraska, but that does not invalidate his or her degree. I believe there are provisions for accrediting physicians with foreign MD degrees in this country.
When I was in Britain, one test foreign doctors had to take was of English, the rationale being that doctors would have to understand their patients. The test included listing the many ways of describing a woman expecting a child. Anything from the upper class "preggers" to the lower class "a bun in her oven."
But we know that a D. Phil from Oxbridge, a doctorat from a French university or a similar degree from practically any other foreign university are all considered the equivalent of a Ph.D. and no one would dream of making their holders take an exam.

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Double post.

By Demingy (Demingy) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 11:19 am: Edit

****""What about foreign students whose colleges don't use the same accreditation system?""

The point is, their institutions are not accredited. Is it then committing fraud for some one of a non-accredited school to apply for a job with their degree? No,****

Jl87d, You quoted yourself and answered yourself. I had quoted your questions about foreign students and answered that question. So you asked the question again, and here's my answer again:

The difference is that employers know that they are dealing with a different accreditation system and can take that into consideration when hiring. This has to do with degrees that AREN'T based on the recognized accreditation system here but are being represented as being accredited.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Jl87d

You mean "Moot" above, not "mute". I know lots of teachers misuse it, but the two words are not the same.

In any case, one of the problems in this discussion is that some employers are too stupid to know the differences between schools that are worthwhile to attend and schools that sell pieces of paper. I've seen a number of fraudulent credential circumstances. They are remarkable, and quite easy to avoid. Anyone can pick the phone and ask if someone graduated from a certain college and they'll tell you. It takes all of about 5 minutes to find the number to call, and about 2 minutes to make the call.

One internet board that I frequent had a regular poster begin to append to his name a PhD title. One of the other posters with whom he regularly disagreed challenged it, and the OP defended it with a school and a subject. It happened to be an alma mater of mine, so I called and checked out of curiosity. Sure enough, no record of him, under any possible combination of names and spelling. I never bothered to disclose to the group what I found, but it was interesting that the OP was defended vociferously by friends on the newsgroup who felt he was being attacked. In the end, it turned out he was just a common liar who needed attention and self importance. It was a tip-off when he gave his major field and a "minor" as well. The same poster routinely posts about crises in his health and personal life too, so it makes you wonder about a lot of things.

Unsolicited advice to young people:

Don't ever misrepresent yourself. It will permanently wreck your life in ways that you can't imagine. I posted once before about a reference call I received from my old roomate's younger brother (by 10 years) about someone interviewing with him who said he had worked at my firm. This had been eight years earlier, but after a few quesions I remembered him as a guy who had a resume that seemed inconsistent with his personna, and who actually left and never came when we discovered in a routine after the fact check that he had never received his MBA (although we had interviewed him on campus). We suspended him w/o pay until he went to clear up what he claimed were some unpaid library fines, and never appeared again.........until the call I got eight years later out of the blue. I don't think he got that job.


I agree that knowingly representing yourself as having met certain requirements when in fact you have not is a fraud.