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So I'm in love with Haverford but I know little about the social scene. I tried some online investigation (Community Webshots searching always works well), but I couldn't find much probably cause it is such a small school.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I am slightly preppy, slightly pretentious (but not in a mean way), and I like to drink (just not every day of the week, not in excess, and not under anyone elses command)

How will this school fit that mold?

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:04 am: Edit

>> I am slightly preppy, slightly pretentious

I'm not saying that you wouldn't be happy at Haverford. However, "preppy" and "pretentious" are not adjectives that would typically be associated with the campus cultures at the Quaker schools. Just the opposite, in fact. The Quaker schools have tradtionally been the "anti-preppie" and "anti-pretentious" schools. Even their preppies aren't overtly "preppy".

I'm guessing that the drinking scene at Haverford is very much like it is at Swarthmore. Kids drink, but frat-boy style binge drinking is not a dominant campus culture.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:33 am: Edit

Damn, I love the school but social life is certainly a huge part in making the selection. However, I must say, when I say preppie and pretentious, I don't mean being a jerk about it...I just mean that this is where I come from...I would be willing to change

Though I'll always have my collars up

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

Look under Individual Schools. You can communicate there with kids who attend and have been admitted.

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:37 am: Edit

Oh, it's you Ilcapo. From what I've seen of you I had you pegged for Columbia.Sense of adventure, aggressive academics....

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:39 am: Edit

Do you like 'preppy sports'?Lacross, cricket, squash, tennis?

By Archermom (Archermom) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

Ilcapo, if you haven't visited Haverford, I would strongly recommend spending some time there. It will definitely give you a better sense of campus life and the right fit for you. Very different from Columbia...best of luck!

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:48 am: Edit

I do like preppy sports (squash, tennis, diving willing to learn cricket, crew)

So I have visited Haverford and I loved it. But the kids I saw didn't exactly look my type...I'm more of a Princeton man at heart, but I can't get in there so....

As for Columbia...I can't get in there either , but I'd gladly go.

Maybe I will apply to Columbia though, since I'm applying to Harvard and Brown it can't get much more difficult. Except with Harvard and Brown I'm applying for the sake of saying I applied so that I have no regrets. With Columbia, I just KNOW I can't get in being outside the top 10%

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:47 am: Edit

Haverford will not have a drinking culture. They have frats and drinking goes on there but that is not the prevalent culture. It is a great school, though. Strong honor code and very good academics.

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:54 am: Edit

Haveford is very unpretentious too. I don't think it will be a good fit for you. I could be wrong..

(It's good that you know enough about yourself to say that you are "slightly pretentious").

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:57 am: Edit

call the admissions office and see if there are students you can talk to by phone or e-mail. some schools have a list of students who have agreed to make themselves available to prospective freshman to discuss the school.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 09:07 am: Edit

Ilcapo-

You said you're a Princeton man at heart, but are applying to Brown and Harvard so that you'll have no regrets. Why not apply to Princeton?

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 09:17 am: Edit

Once again, I don't think I can get in to any of these places.

I'm applying to Harvard because I love the place (the academics, social life, Cambridge etc.) I'm applying to Brown because I might have a slight shot.

I can't even go look at Princeton because it will depress me...in fact when I got their viewbook I threw it out cause I knew it would only make me upset that I wasn't able to do better in high school haha.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:00 am: Edit

Ilcapo, I cannot get your reasoning here. While I certainly think it is good that you can be realistic about your chances and see schools such as Princeton, Columbia, Harvard and Brown as far reaches (am assuming this is so based on what you are saying here), you are actually going to apply to Harvard and Brown (which is FINE of course). But since you are taking this chance and applying to two schools in this category, I do not see the difference between those and Princeton which you say you LOVE. In fact, are you appling ED anywhere? If not, and you truly LOVE Princeton, the early decision rate there last year was 32%!! For a kid who has a slight chance, that ups the odds. I can't say you have a slight chance as I do not know your stats. But let's assume you have a chance since you are applying to two schools at that level as it is. Your chance at Princeton is not going to be worse than the other two Ivies you picked (slightly more difficult than Brown, ok, but actually in the ED round, perhaps better chances than Brown).

You also are giving the excuse that you did not go to a better high school. My daughter did not go to a high school to write home about either. It is a rural high school that is unknown, and nobody has ever gone to Princeton, though students have gone to most of the Ivies (often one or two students per year). My daughter applied RD to Princeton where they only took 8.8% in that round and made the waitlist of a couple hundred kids. I realize she did not get in but that is fairly close and who knows if she had applied early when the admit rate was 32% if she might have gotten in (was not her first choice so that is ok that she did not). So, I would not rule out that you cannot apply cause you did not go to a better high school. And while "Ivy" was definitely not my daughter's goal, but for the sake of your Ivy discussion, she still got into two Ivies. So, it is possible to do from a "crappy" high school.

Also, your reasoning that you can try for Harvard and Brown but not Princeton doesn't correlate with elite admissions today. It is a crapshoot at these schools. If you qualify, you can get into one but not another, often because they are building a class of a variety of kids and you may fill a slot in one school but not another but be just as qualified for both schools. My younger child was babysitting the other night and the mom, upon hearing that my D's sister just started Brown, told her that she had gone to Princeton, got into Yale, but did not get into Brown. That is just one example. If Princeton is your favorite, and they are all a reach (as they are for anyone) or really a far reach perhaps for you (by what you said), I don't see why you do not apply for the one you truly love. Though I do support not applying to a ton of schools at this level if they are far reaches. A few selected ones, yes, and then some more realistic ones to balance it out is best and I feel you are on the right track in that way of thinking.

Susan

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:27 am: Edit

Williams, Bates, Colby, Middlebury, Trinity (and Davidson, if you look south.)

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:10 pm: Edit

What makes this discussion difficult is that the word "preppie" had two distinct meanings. In one sense, it describes a background -- affluent kids who have attended private high schools and/or affluent, prestigious public high schools. The term "preppie" can also be used to describe personality traits -- style of dress, career ambitions, elitist outlook.

The two don't necessarily coincide. For example, you can have kids from "preppie" backgrounds who do not exhibit "preppie" personalities. This would be quite prevalent at the Quaker colleges. Like most elite colleges, they draw a significant portion of their student body from "preppie" backgrounds (easy to see from high schools listed in the freshmen facebooks). However, they tend to attract the less "preppie" kids from these backgrounds as seen in this Swarthmore Daily Gazettee April Fool's Day Parody:

--------------------

7) Real World teams up with Swat to liven up admissions

In an effort to make Swarthmore more visible to the public, the President's Office has unveiled a plan to have the new cast members of Real World Philadelphia work in the admissions office for the college.

"We are sure with their help, we are going to come up with a top-notch set of young, hip and happening freshmen coming to Swarthmore for the year 2009. Much better than the geeks we have now," says [Pres.] Al Bloom while paging through Spin Magazine.

The school first realized there was a problem when they had to hide their students when Abercrombie and Fitch came to the school to do a photo shoot for their new catalogue. "Our students were scaring the models. They had never seen so many dorky people in one place at the same time," says Lucinda Wright from the Ministry of Information.

"I don't know, man. It was like, wow. The girls didn't even wear makeup and like, some of them didn't even shave their legs. I just wanted to sit there and cry, man," says Joey Scicola, Abercrombie and Fitch model.

After the photo shoot was over, the school realized something had to change. "Swarthmore may have used to be the Kremlin on the Crum but that's an image that needs some updating. Why can't we be the Calvin Klein on the Krum?" says Wright.

In an effort to help the Real World cast in their job as new admissions officers, the Admissions Office has begun trying to streamline the admissions process. "We decided to get rid of those time-consuming essays. We are taking our cues from MTV itself. We are going to require video taped interviews instead. Interviews will be held in front of cameras in a "Real World Confessional" type manner. Greater emphasis will be placed on wardrobe and accessorizing. Each candidate, I mean applicant, will be ranked on a four smiley face scale," says Bock."

----------------------

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:41 pm: Edit

I agree with Susan. The logic of applying to Harvard and Brown, but not Princeton would have to be more based on personal choice than selectivity of admission criteria. If you look at the stats, Harvard has a more selective criteria...followed by Princeton, Penn and Columbia are about tied....and then Brown (based on SAT score selectivity)....I left out the other Ivies because they don't seem to be part of the discussion, but added Penn because of my son's interest and my curiosity.

Harvard and Princeton have the same admit rate...but Harvard is larger. If Harvard and Princeton were the same size, would Harvard's admit rate be lower?

Penn has a more selective SAT admission criteria than Brown. But, Penn is much larger. Brown's admit rate is lower than Penn. If Penn were the same size as Brown, how would that impact the admit rate since they have a higher median SAT?

I think the admit rate is pretty useless once you really look at the bigger picture across the schools to see how the variables can play.


Harvard
Median SAT 700-790 (v)
700-800 (m)
Admit Rate 10%
Ugrads 6,597
-----------------------------

Princeton
Median SAT 680-770 (v)
690-790 (m)
Admit Rate 10%
Ugrads 4,676
-------------------------------
UPenn
Median SAT 650-750 (v)
680-760 (m)
Admit Rate 20%
Ugrads 9,836

-------------------------------
Columbia
Median SAT 650-760 (v)
660-750 (m)
Admit rate 11%
Ugrads 4,181
-------------------------------

Brown
Median SAT 640-750 (v)
650-750 (m)
Admit Rate 16%
Ugrads 5,730
---------------------------

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:47 pm: Edit

I agree that at those acceptance rate levels, the relative rates are useless.

Also, keep in mind ED rates vs RD rates. Princeton has a very low RD rate, but one of the highest ED rates among the ivies (Columbia's and Penn's are probably in the same range). Brown's ED rate is quite a bit lower.

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

The relative rates are even more useless than appears. These schools have really radically different numbers and percentages of international applicants, with HYP having as many as 3x those of the other schools, and they admit them at a 2-3% rate. Take the internationals out of the HYP equation, and the schools don't look much different. Then take the nursing school out of UPenn, and.... The proportion of legacy applications and legacy admits also may massively change the equations. It's quite the crapshoot.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:09 pm: Edit

OK let me do my best to explain decisions.

I am ranked outside of the top 10% of my class, thus my shot of getting in to ANY Ivy is incredibly low. When I look through US News for admit rates and top 10% rates, the findings cancel out alot of schools, such as:

Yale (99%)
Princeton (94%)
Penn (93%)

At the above schools, my chances for admission are almost non existant. While Harvard has 90% of students in the top 10%, they are a larger school and have a much larger applicant pool. As for Brown, I just feel like they are a bit more progressive and could admit me based on my political activist ECs.


By the way - I never said I come from a crappy school, actually my school sends a ton of kids to Cornell and Penn every year (and tons of other good schools)

The reason I am not in the top 10% is because since freshman year I have been pushing myself so that I could quasi-graduate early and do what I am doing now with the dual enrollment situation. This is why I took Chemistry and AP Bio in the same year even though I hate science. This is why I took the accelerated track in Math so that I could finish calculus junior year (even though math is my worst subject)

While I could explain this to colleges all day, I think I am too much of a risk for them to take - as my statistics will obviously contribute to a lower US News ranking.


Does anyone know what US News uses for the top 10% ranking? I will not be included in end of the year rank, so I could possibly try to explain to colleges that while I am ranked at this point in time, my dual enrollment situation voids me from the pool of rankable students at my HS.

That might sound a little slick though, I'm not sure.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:11 pm: Edit

ID- Really great post! Frequently I have trouble understanding what a particular poster means by "preppie" The fashion explanation is wonderful.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Ilcapo -- actually, your activist ECs may help you more at a school like Princeton, which is reportedly trying to expand its student body to include more "alternative" types, than Brown, which probably gets tons of applications from kids with political activism on their resumes, many of whom will be in the top 10% of their class. It's more likely to stand out on a Princeton app than a Brown app.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:22 pm: Edit

what about colgate?

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:22 pm: Edit

I don't know how they'll view your explanation about your rank (or eventual lack thereof). Since you attend a scholls that DOES rank, they'll probably want to know what your current rank is. BTW, Brown took 87% from the top 10th...and Columbia took 81%. Looks like you have a decent shot at Columbia, too....if rank is the issue.

Seems like you have a good handle on the stats of the schools vs. your own. But, if you really, really have a dream school and your scores are "close", I would still go for it. I can't imagine how you might feel if you never tried!

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:23 pm: Edit

Hmm, interesting idea.

Well maybe I'll give it a try

I wish I could apply to more schools, but I feel like my guidance counselor would get mad at me. I have no problem spending a weekend filling out 20 applications, but I know that my GC will tell me its not feasible (even if I've done it!)

I'm all for applying to a ton of schools, see where you are accepted, then go from there.

But I guess others disagree with that strategy, oh well.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Good point Rhonda! Seems that we get so caught up in the "match" of the school, that we forget the benefits of not being a "match" when it comes to admission and, eventually, to the positive imapct the "non-match" student might have on the school population.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Could I write a letter to my schools asking them to not consider my rank (similar to what one does at Conn College or Middlebury with SATs)

Then I could explain the reasons, and see what they do.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit

I am a big fan of statistical analysis. However, it is a mistake to draw fine distinctions between slight differences in stats like "percentage from top 10% of class".

The short version is that it is impossible to get accepted into any of the colleges mentioned from outside the top 10% of the class unless:

a) there is a significant "hook" involved

b) the prep school is nationally competitive

c) there are circumstances that put the student outside the traditional ranking formulas (as might be the case for a student transfering into the high school late or taking courses off campus.

One of the saddest things, to me, is reading "What Are My Chances" threads from (non-athlete, non-URM) kids in average public high schools ranked right around the 10% mark asking about Havard or Yale. It is simply not going to happen.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Here is the letter I have shipped off to many of my schools:


Dear Admissions Officer,



In this era of US News rankings there seems to be a constant struggle for a college or university to maintain a high “ranking”. Furthermore, the importance of statistics has been sadly stressed in the admissions offices of colleges around the country. For myself and the situation I find myself in, this obsession with numbers has left me feeling very worrisome about the college admissions process. Since freshman year, I have been accelerating my curriculum in order to make room for a senior year in which I could be dual enrolled at both Stony Brook University and Northport High School. For the most part, this acceleration has proved extremely successful and I am now enjoying my 3 courses at Northport and 5 courses at Stony Brook immensely. Unfortunately, now that I look over my transcript, I can realize that this decision also put a strain on my class rank. Due to the fact that I was taking courses such as AP Biology and Chemistry at the same time in sophomore year or taking Calculus (math being my worst subject) in junior year, I often received less than stellar grades in those subjects. This consequently lowered my ranking to an area just outside of the top 10%. As I look now at the statistics colleges boast, I can’t help but feel self-conscious about my ranking and its potential effect on an admissions decision. While I wish that your school would not emphasize rank to such a degree, I also respect that in order to maintain a high US News ranking you must continue to accept students that rank comfortably within the top 10%. In addition, the courting process of recruited athletes and underrepresented minorities (a process I support) tends to squeeze out the available spots for a student such as myself who ranks outside the top 10%.



For this reason, I am writing to you to request that you NOT consider class rank as a component of my application. In addition, I am requesting that you not use my rank in any statistical reporting. Because of my dual enrollment situation, I have been voided from the pool of ranked students at my high school. Thus my final transcript WILL NOT include a rank. However, the transcript you receive will include rank as the data it is based on does not include any college courses. I am hoping that you can evaluate my application without resorting to class rank, and I would very much respect your decision to do so.



If you could please contact me at your earliest convenience and let me know if this would be feasible, I would greatly appreciate it. This will help me narrow down my “college list” and allow me to notify my guidance counselor of such a change.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Ilcapo -- I'd advise against writing a letter that begins w/a reference to the US News rankings.

I don't think this letter is a good idea, but others who know more about all this should weigh in. It just looks defensive and I don't think it will help you. To the extent your rank needs to be explained, your counselor should be doing that in his/her recommendation. It would probably be a better use of your time to work with your counselor to say the "right thing."

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:18 pm: Edit

I am kind of a confrontational person - especially when it comes to knocking down institutions that just don't make sense.

I'm speaking the truth, and if the college is too "old guard" to deal with it, then I don't really want to go!

The US News rankings dictate much of what a college does, hopefully I can appeal to the side of the admissions officer who resents this sad fact.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit

P.S. The greatest interview I ever had was at Haverford, where we spoke for 2 hours about the ridiculousness of the US News rankings and how some administrative offices put unbelievable amounts of pressure on the adcoms to deliver a high rating.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Interesteddad I disagree with that statement. If Columbia accepts 81% from top 10% and Yale 99% from the top 10%, it clearly proves that Columbia places a greater weight on other areas and I thus have a greater chance of acceptance there.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

I just skimmed it...but I see that you talk about how you "feel" about the rank.....

If you are compelled to send a letter, it should be shorter and not disucss your "feelings" about the methodology used to select students.

If you want to argue the facts, use a fact based arguement...and make it simple.

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Ilcapo, I wish you had not mentioned the US News ranking too. There is a lot of hypocrisy in how the schools approach US News rankings but they will NEVER publicly admit to anything and will be riled if anyone even suggests they care about that or that they take people based on upping their ranking.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:25 pm: Edit

I can always take out the US news thing

They are all sitting in little envelopes on my kitchen table. I suppose I could rip them up if I must, but I don't wanna!

I really think that the US News ranking is the deciding factor in all this, so don't you think it needs to be discussed?

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:33 pm: Edit

As I told you, I think they would rather eat raw sewage than admit that they care about US News rankings that much. Other people should weigh in too, I might not be right. HYPS and other Ivies may not care about US News rankings but other colleges do.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:45 pm: Edit

>> I'm speaking the truth, and if the college is too "old guard" to deal with it, then I don't really want to go!

I suspect that your letter will accomplish what you want at dozens, if not hundreds, of "old guard" colleges and universities!

I suspect that the worst possible reaction an applicant can prompt from the adcoms is, "who does this kid think he is, telling us how to run our college!"

As for Columbia, it probably is slightly "easier" than Harvard as far as selectivity -- you can see that in the median SAT scores. The "percent in top 10%" may be a valid part of that determination or not. For example, they indicate that less than 51% of their freshman class reports a class rank...so the data may be skewed. In their admissions criteria, they say that class rank is "Very Important".

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

>> They are all sitting in little envelopes on my kitchen table. I suppose I could rip them up if I must, but I don't wanna!

Tear them up, then burn the scraps, and dump the ashes in the Hudson River so that there is no way those letters can be accidentally mailed!

I do think that you need to find a way to shed some light on your class rank, but that letter is NOT it!

BTW, I am as cynical as the next guy, but I don't think the USNEWS rankings have one iota of bearing on why colleges view class rank and high school transcript as the single most important piece of information. It's really not a sinister plot. Rather, the colleges are looking for kids who have demonstrated that they do the academic work. If a college really wanted to manipulate its 'selectivity', it would be easier to simply accept the highest SAT applicants.

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Yes, don't be impulsive. Don't send that letter.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Think about it though.

My rank does not in any way correlate to the work I did, and is therefore not an indicator of my performance.

Why should a college such as Yale shut me out because of this?

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Ilcapo -- it's not whether or not they "should." There are a lot of admissions factors that many people think should not be considered (or some that aren't considered which people think SHOULD be). At the elite schools, they have so many top applicants that they have the luxury of deciding what they should and shouldn't consider.

If you're dead-set on sending the letter, then go ahead. But I think people here are just warning you about the reception its likely to get. One concern is that you are simply magnifying the rank issue and drawing even more attention to it. Another is that you're going to tick off the adcoms. I think both are valid.

By Achat (Achat) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:07 pm: Edit

But the adcoms know what to look in an application to make that determination themselves. Your ECs, your interest in photojournalism, the awards you got, should indicate you are a very interesting person. Your coarse load should indicate you can do the work.

I don't know...ask another adult you know. Rhonda, ID and I could be wrong. I just think you are acting impulsively.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit

I think your letter would sink you much faster than your class rank. Most adcoms HATE kids fixated on class rank, grades, SATs, and US News rankings. Hypocritical? Yeah. But reality.

I also fully agree with Susan's post. You should certainly apply to those colleges where you most want to attend along with those where you have a good chance of getting accepted. The whole trick of getting the admissions process done right is getting the proper mix of dream schools, realistic choices, and true safeties. All within a manageable number of applications.

Why don't you meet with your highschool counselor and ask if the class rank cannot be be ommited from your transcript? Some schools will generated such a transcript upon request. I know that one public highschool where we lived did this for years, and when it became a definitive fact that those who did not report got into schools more easily than those who do, they dropped the ranking entirely except as an internal measure to select the val and sal.

Adcoms look at all info they get even if it is not info they request. That is why the score choice option has caused a wrench in many kids taking the SAT2 these days. Once you take them, the scores are on the same report as the SAT1 and you can write the most eloquent letters under the sun for them not to take them into account. It just takes one sweep of the eyeball to see the numbers--even less than that to take in the class rank. You are being awfully presumptuous dicatating what you do not want taken into consideration. There are a lot of things on a lot of applications, that students would not want considered. Can you imagine the deluge of letters, it this were a consideration? I think the adcoms would get a good laugh out of your letter, and they will take a good look at that class rank to see what the do is about the situation.

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 03:53 pm: Edit

"Why should a college such as Yale shut me out because of this?"

Because they are not in the business of selecting you or not-selecting you. They are in the business of a selecting A CLASS that best serves the needs of the institution as set forth by the Board of Trustees.

How does your letter help them do their job better?

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Ilcapo,
You sound much more like a Trinity, Dickinson or a Franklin & Marshall type, even a Lafayette type, than a Haverford type.

But, that doesn't mean you should rule Haverford out...I often say you should go to a school where the students are similiar to the type of person you would like to BECOME because you will change over four years....and goodness knows, Haverford is a wonderful school.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Ilcapo, Yale shuts you out because A) they are a private institution and can do whatever the .... they want to do and (more truly) B)they have many thousand more applications than they can possibly know what to do with, and stupid numerical things are the easiest way to separate candidates that look so much alike.

Now I think that they are more holistic than just saying "this number in this pile, this number in that pile", but realistically it comes down to the same thing when they've got thousands of kids to wade through, and only 1 of 10 goes into the keep pile. Your rank may not be "fair", but it is not fair that my child has grown up in a state where college admissions is not a blood sport and her application is lacking in some ways. It is not "fair" that she went on summer school trips and summer vacations with her family - who knew that she needed to do academics in the summer or build houses in Ecuador - we thought she needed downtime in the summer to just be a kid.

Ilcapo, why did you want to finish early and go to Stony Brook? What were YOU looking for? Do you have a passion for knowing? Did you think you were confined by your high school? Concentrate on the positive, the drive that would lead a young person to work so hard, and emphasize that in your application.

I appreciate your activism, but this is not the setting to be confrontational, there is a difference in being true to yourself and your beliefs and actions and being deliberately critical and accusatory to others. Concentrate on the things YOU can influence.

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:40 pm: Edit

"My rank does not in any way correlate to the work I did, and is therefore not an indicator of my performance."

If they wanted to select a class based upon how hard students worked, they might end up with a class of folks who suffered from Down's Syndrome. (and then we'd really see if there was substantial "value-added" through the elite college education.)

Give it a rest -- if I was a poorly paid college admissions officer who finished in the lowest third of my class, and wasn't the top of the heap when I was admitted to begin with, why would I go out of my way to admit another whiner?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Ilcapo, to put it bluntly, DO NOT SEND THAT LETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I were an adcom and I read that letter, I would look no further and say, DENY. Your job is not to make excuses. Your job is not to criticize whatever criteria colleges wish to use. As someone else said, another kid could write a letter and say please do view my SAT scores cause I am a crappy test taker. It does not work that way.

Also the actual letter is offensive. It questions the process. It accuses them of using USNEWS to guide their decisions and so forth. I am not going to even critique the rest of the letter as you should NOT, I repeat, NOT send this letter.

As far as the rank, this is something you could either just let go as your least strong point, OR IF you wish to address it, I can think of two things. One is....your GC should address it in his report. He can say something to the affect that while this is Ilcapo's rank, it is not a true indicator of his achievements because he chose to challenge himself further beyond the curriculum of the school and take college courses which did not factor into the ranking. He doubled up and accelerated in his first few years of high school which was more challenging than the norm at our high school, yadda yadda. (PS...btw, I did not like how you made excuses for lower grades, while I understand why you got them and the challenges you took on by that courseload, you should not be giving excuses on your application).

The second way to address this is on YOUR end. You could have written a personal statement (if not in covered in one of the regular essays) about the curriculum you have chosen. You could explain the POSITIVES....such as the challenges and acceleration you took on, the college level courses and so forth. Don't even mention rank. Mention what you did that was not the norm at your high school (I presume). For instance, my child is adding a personal statement to her apps to explain why she has chosen to graduate high school early as it is not a typical situation. It will accentuate positive reasons. She will not be making excuses for why she did not get an A in math even though she is accelerated two grades beyond the norm for high school. She will mention all the acceleration she has done to challenge herself. Period.

Lastly, I agree that being outside the top 10% decreases your odds of admission at Ivy league schools. If you have two dream schools in that league, apply, but not to a real lot in this category as they might be far reaches (I don't know the rest of your stats though so just basing it on the rank part). Don't get so wide eyed on the IVY league. I mean there are many schools just as good that are not Ivy and they are also tough to get into but might be a regular reach, not a far reach. Schools like Haverford are along those lines. Choose a reach school for your ED if you have a clear first choice. Again, if you do go Ivy, I see no reason to say your chance is greater at Brown and Harvard than Princeton. It is tough all over. Pick the ones you love.

And remember....DON'T SEND THAT LETTER! All that work you put into the essays you have posted numerous times are for naught if you send that kind of letter. I would stop reading after reading that letter. NO joke.

Susan

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 06:44 pm: Edit

OK, well I sent it off to Swarthmore for personal, hateful reasons

And the rest have been shredded muahaha

So yea, I get your point - it's just kind of depressing when I imagine what the adcoms will say when they see my rank. Oh well.

Anywho, back to the process...

I do like the Haverford community, so I'll give it a shot. I think college is much more about learning new ideas/ways than going to Trinity and partying with a bunch of rich kids.

Any other suggestions? How bout Hamilton?

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:21 pm: Edit

I am clueless as to what you are fishing for. You know all the schools. You seem to have the data on all of them, and are able to make good comparisons. There is no one on this list who has themselves attended more than one of them, and occasionally a poster here or there might have visited, and, rarely, has a son or daughter attending. You know which ones have preppies, which ones have fraternities, which ones have Pell Grant recipients. And you know how to research further. What do you expect to get out of us?

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Sometimes, posters can shed an interesting light on schools I would have never even considered.

I believe that it was this site that made me go look at Williams, which I loved, and thought I would hate as it was in the middle of Massachussets with no airport or anything like that.

You are slightly hostile today, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all?

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:00 pm: Edit

It is more than a little exasperating when a young adult ASKS for advice from an adult & then argues about the advice given. Been there & done that with my own more times than I care to remember. I would prefer they not ask if they aren't going to pay any attention to what I say and I really dislike them criticizing my pov when it has only been given at their request. Just a thought.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Obviously I did heed the advice of everyone that posted seeing as I DIDNT send the letters I was planning on sending.

What an odd thread this has become.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 12:54 am: Edit

Hmm. I know a non-rich kid going to Trinity who is working her butt off and having a great time.

Yeah, there are some obnoxious preppy kids there who sneer at kids from public hs but they haven't been an insurmountable obstacle to her...she just moves around and onward.

By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:15 am: Edit

Could you possible e-mail me her screenname, I'd like to talk to her about Trinity

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 02:59 am: Edit

I'll admit that even as an adult one of my favorite things is to ask for advice and then start arguing against it. Good intellectual exercise and a great way to annoy your friends.

Mr. Capo. . .I'm very glad to see you torched the letters. They would have sunk you at some places, and I can't think of one college where that approach would have done you any good. . .Reed maybe? However, if you kill the class rank/US News protest there are definitely some positive elements in that text that can be used in interviews and short essays: willingness to take on a heavy course load and the challenge of college courses, education for education's sake etc.

As for schools, I recall an earlier post of yours but can't remember if Kenyon has been suggested. Could be a fit. My nephew is there and he's a poli sci major (so far, and a big Sopranos fan)though not much of a prep type. The latter, along with English majors and swimmers, appears to be the most evident group on campus. Hamilton might not be a bad choice either.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Post a message in the College Search & Selection forum, "Twinkles Thread 23" for Twinkletoes26.

This is the 23rd in a series of threads beginning back when she was first looking at colleges in her junior year. She wound up at Trinity and is a first-year there now.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit

I will again suggest Colgate -- preppy, sports oriented, good academics.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Ilcapo, there are a number of schools that you would like. Trinity is a great school, as is Hamilton, Colgate, Lafayette. And of course the highly selective schools that you hesitate to cast your app for. I would suggest, just off the top of my head, to apply to a few of your top choices even if they are lottery tickets. Just in case you do get in, and just so you know that you reached as high as you could. Then schools like Hamilton, Union, Trinity, all with a 40% or so accept rate should be on your list. Then add a few like Gettysburg, Dickinson, Muhlenberg that have a higher accept rate. I think you would be happy at any of such schools. If you need a financial safety, you should start looking for that as well. Maybe only one or two safeties is all you need if you can work and show demonstrated interest at all of your match schools. Haverford would be a match/reach, just by its accept rate.