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My daughter is having a hard time knowing what to do about applying to her top choice school. School A is non binding Early Action only, with notification the end of January. School B is Early Decision II with notification by February 1.

If she gets into School A she would absolutely attend. If she doesn't get into School A, but gets into School B, she would attend School B. The problem is she might hear from B before A, and if she gets into both she would have to go to school B as it is binding. Her first choice is A but she would also be very happy at B. The counselor wants her to go ahead and apply to the ED II school in hopes of hearing from A first. If she hears from A first and she is admitted, she can withdraw her ED II application.

The reason for the ED II application is she has a better chance of being admitted to School B through ED II. She said she would never forgive herself if she didn't apply to her first choice school (school A) even though it is a reach for her. School B might also be a reach/match, therefore the ED II.

I don't like the idea of playing games with the admission dates. I'm worried that she might hear from school B before A, and get into School A. If that were to happen, what would School B do? This of course is assuming both schools accept her.

Sorry I'm rambling; it's late and I need to go to bed.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 12:21 am: Edit

It's not ethically fair to apply to School B under their binding EDII program unless you plan to enroll if admitted. It also may be in technical violation of either school's agreement, depending the actual wording of their EA and EDII policies.

Under the scenario you describe, your daughter would have to submit an RD application to School B and then withdraw that application if accepted to school A.

I'm a big believer in playing the admissions "game", but I think you have to play it ethically.

By Momrath (Momrath) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 01:34 am: Edit

"School A is non binding Early Action only, with notification the end of January" Could you please double check the notification date? Most ED/EA schemes involve notification by mid-end December, which then allows the student to move on to EDII as a second first choice.

If indeed your daughter's EA school won't let her know before college B's EDII application date, then I'd agree with Interesteddad, that you're over complicating the process to the extent that your daughter may lose out on both options. Trust your instincts; this is a risky plan. I'm surprised a highschool counselor would counsel your daughter to take chances like this.

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Momrath,

Notification date is correct; this school does not have ED, only non binding EA. I was thinking last night that another problem with this was that if she were deferred with School A and accepted to School B she would not have a chance with School A.

I don't like this game playing at all, but the counselor isn't bothered by it. The ED school is not a school others from our school apply to so the counselor doesn't mind burning bridges for my child. My gut is to not apply ED II to School B, but for her to apply RD. What ever happens, happens.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

If the date is correct, School A has used their late EA notification date specifically to prevent their EA applicants from applying to ED or EDII programs at other schools.

Here's the problem with what your GC is recommending. If your kid gets accepted to the EDII school, it is quite likely that her name will appear on lists sent to other colleges. All of these colleges take a dim view of kids trying to weasel out of a binding ED commitment (unless it is for financial reasons). There is a very good chance that the acceptance at BOTH schools would be revoked.

It's pretty simple really. If you apply to a binding ED school, you must be prepared to enroll there upon acceptance, regardless of what other options may have materialized. They will let you out of the binding agreement, but only when the family simply cannot afford to pay the bills and needs to pursue less expensive options, like the local state university. They don't want to hear about getting accepted to School A and wanting to weasel out of a binding ED commitment that has been made.

EDII is most effectively used following a rejection or deferal from an EA school that notifies on Dec. 15th. Then, the student has two weeks to restack the deck and apply EDII to their second choice school. This was an option for my daughter had she been rejected/deferred at her first choice ED school; although I'm not sure she felt strongly enough about ranking the next few schools on her list to have taken advantage of EDII. EDII schools offer the option specifically to fish for strong applicants who struck out in the ED/EA round at Ivies and other highly selective schools.

For example, Swarthmore has a huge application overlap with Columbia, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Princeton. There are excellent kids who get rejected/defered from these schools in the EA round. Offereing an EDII option gives Swat a shot at locking in some of these kids and taking them "off the market".

By Luckyme (Luckyme) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:21 pm: Edit

My daughter and I are struggling over the same issue, except her EA school notifies by mid Dec. and her EDII schools notify by Jan. 1. The problem we face is that since her father is a legacy at EA school, there's a good chance that she will be deferred to RD, but also a good chance that she won't be accepted RD, as the school is a reach. Any suggestions?

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Check those dates carefully. The typical notification date for EA/ED is Dec. 15th. The application deadline for EDII is typically January 1st.

Hint #1: There is some leeway on the application deadlines. Most schools are not going to toss an app in the trash can if it's a day or two late!

Hint #2: I know, there are exceptions. But, the odds of getting accepted in RD after a deferral in EA/ED are exceptionally bad...approaching zero. A deferral really should be read as a "polite" rejection. You have to figure they've had the best opportunity they are ever going to have to fall in love with your app in the EA/ED round.

By Garland (Garland) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

ID: depends on the school. columbia says they accept about 19% of their deferrals, which is a better rate than for the rest of the RD decisions..

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:58 pm: Edit

What do schools think of someone who withdraws an ED II before letters are sent? Is that acceptable to do? Don't want to tick any schools off, but it is possible she might hear from the EA school in enough time to withdraw ED II before letters are sent. The counselor seems to think she might get a response from the EA school verbally in enough time to notify ED II school.

I agree that the chances of being deferred and then admitted RD are slim to none. With that in mind, going the ED II route with school makes sense if it can be done without causing trouble.

By Momrath (Momrath) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

I think the best strategy may be to reverse the counselor's advice. Apply EA to school A, apply RD to school B. If your daughter gets a negative from school A (which the GC thinks will happen before the end of January) she could then call B and switch to EDII.

Colleges always welcome a change from RD to ED. How they feel about changes from ED to RD can't be known, but we can assume that it's not a positive.

In the case that you describe, presuming that the reason your daughter would withdraw her EDII application from B would be because A had given her the nod, who cares what B thinks about her? If the GC says this action wouldn't be harmful for the highschool, then I wouldn't worry about that aspect.

What I would worry about is that school A might view the EDII application to school B as an infringement on their (school A's) EA rules and ultimately not admit your daughter. This is the kind of question you could ask school A about directly.

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Momrath,

Interesting idea about switching from RD to ED II if she doesn't get accepted to EA school. Unfortunately, there will not be time to do that; by the time she gets notified from EA school, ED II school will have already made their selection and letters will be in the mail. Most of the other schools she will apply to have a February 15 notification date for ED II. If that were the case with this school, she would be in good shape.

School A doesn't have any rules concerning applications to other schools. Their enrollment deposit is not due until May 1; remember this is a non binding EA. I don't think school A would even know that she has another application out there. At the same time, I don't want to do anything deceitful.

More thinking to do; I say don't do it, my daughter says go for it. She just wants to increase her chances for the ED school. She of course thinks the counselor knows all; I'm just mom, I know nothing!!

By Momrath (Momrath) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Sounds like a tough situation. Maybe your daughter could level with college A and try and get an early notification date from them, but first I'd try an anonymous phone call to learn their official position on simultaneous ED applications.

By Ellemenope (Ellemenope) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit

Non-binding early action that notifies at the end of January?? What school does that?!!

They should call it "non-binding early action II".

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Since School A is your child's absolute favorite choice, my advice is to get that app ready asap and hand deliver it to admissions there, get an interview and explain the situation--and see if they can help you. You can offer to accept on the spot if accepted.

If they cannot budge from their policy, and if they well know that their acceptance may not be out by the end of January, then you need to make the decision as to whether or not you will sacrifice a chance to go to that school for a sure shot at the Ed school. I want to tell you that any of these ED, RD, EA dates are not cast in stone. Many schools do jump the gun with the acceptances, and if school B lets out the notifications a week early, which is entirely possible, and School A drags its feet, you can be in trouble. Once you are accepted at an ED school, you are contractually required to go there unless there is an outstanding reason why you cannot. Prefering another school and inconvenient deadlines are not considered a good reasons. That your GC does not care about her integrity is disappointing, but that should not affect your family ethics. The rules are clear, you understand them, it is your decision whether you want to break them. If you do and consequences occur--and academia is connected in some really strange ways, you have only your own dishonesty to blame. It is so easy to skirt these rules and so easy to get in the habit of giving ones self an edge doing this. I would not recommend doing this or starting your child out on that road. I would not be weighing my chances of "getting caught" as much as I would the precedent this is setting. Would you steal from a store, just because you know that there is no security on duty that day and the clerks are too busy? Same principle.

Many, many of us are having issues with the ED/EA deadlines and rules, not just you. I know kids who prefer CMU to NYU but CMU has no early decision for performing arts majors. By foregoing the NYU early option, you halve your chances at NYU, and the chances for CMU are abysmal. This is just one example of the choices many of the students have to make. ED is clearly stated as an option for kids who absolutely want to go to that school first, not a means to up the chances to get into a school. Though many kids do go that route to enhance chances, the basic principle of the ED option is not to pave that road, so if you have other preferences, that is really tough luck to you. Applying to colleges involves making a lot of hard choices--that is inherent to the process.

By Mini (Mini) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:15 pm: Edit

I don't think this is all that difficult. The schools are always very clear: don't APPLY ED unless you are sure you plan to attend and will withdraw all other applications and decline all other acceptances. They are doing ED applicants a favor by providing an early decision, taking the pressure off, and making some folks happy; the quid pro quo is that you agree to the terms.

I think your GC is "ethically challenged", and sooner or later a couple of colleges will catch on to his/her gaming, with unfortunate consequences for students from the school.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Pokey -- this time line doesn't make any sense. I have never heard of an EA school that doesn't inform you BEFORE the RD deadline. Can you tell us which school this is? It certainly seems set up to prevent ED II applications.

As a side note (I know, no one asked ...), I don't like the ED II idea in general. ED I is bad enough, but to set up yet another round of binding applications, simply as a way to snare ED I deferrals/rejectees is too much.

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:20 pm: Edit

My daughter doesn't want me giving out too much of her information; I guess I taught her good internet skills! The school with EA that doesn't notify until January 31, is UNC. They no longer have ED, only non binding EA.

We have decided not to let her apply ED II to her second choice school. She will apply RD and whatever happens, happens. While I haven't spoken to the counselor, I was under the impression from my daughter that it would be ok to withdraw an ED as long as you do so before they mail out the letters. As these two schools both notify at the same time, it was a gamble we were not willing to take. I, for one do not like ED for my kids. I don't feel that they are ready to make that kind of decision at the age of 17. While my daughter feels she "loves" both of these school, she would also be happy at a number of other schools. I have seen kids change their minds monthly on which school is "the one".

I know deciding which school to attend is stressful on the kids, but it is no piece of cake for the parents!

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

So UNC is her first choice, and the ED II school is her second choice? Sorry, but I'm getting a bit confused here!

If that's right, I think she COULD apply to both UNC EA and the ED II school. UNC EA clearly allows applying to binding ED schools (according to their website -- I checked the admissions FAQs). Your problem is that the notification dates are essentially the same -- Jan 31 and Feb 1. Is one option to have your D contact UNC and tell them that this is her first choice, and would they be able to give her a decision early -- even a few days before 1/31 would be enough. At that point, if she got in, she could withdraw the ED II application (or change it to RD if she wanted to keep her options open).

Someone can point out if this raises ethical questions that I've overlooked, but I don't really think it does. Yes, I understand that ED is supposed to be for those who truly want that school as their first choice, but I don't think that this approach would be gaming the system -- it is permissible to withdraw an ED application, or to change it to RD, isn't it?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Rhonda, the fact that the school is UNC makes it tougher as it is a large state school and getting a exception would be difficult, though the OP can try. The problem is that the dates are just not set in stone. I have seen many, many times where kids are notified before or after the dates given in the college literature. It would be entirely possible for the EA notification to come earlier than the ED one. It is permissible to withdraw an ED application before a decision is communicated. The problem is if that school jumps the gun and lets their ED candidates know earlier than their posted date, the OP's student is in a bind, as he is ethically bound to go to that school despite what the highschool counselor says. The scenario is just all too possible.

I don't like ED2 either for all of the complications it adds to the process. ED, EA , ED2, SCEA, rolling, Early notification, early audition--it makes me crazy, I must admit. And they don't like people gaming the system! Hypocritical, I feel, as the colleges game away with their notifications. Most have trouble sticking with a consistent candidate notification date, and I have seen some schools push the May1 rule of thumb as well!

But the rules for ED are quite clear, and the disadvantages for this student are equally clear, and everyone is aware of them. Yes, by pushing things and holding ones breath, maybe they could game the system, but if things go wrong it can really make life even more stressful. Especially knowing that you did something risky.

I have seen kids withdraw an ED app after getting an EA acceptance. I can see it happening in a few cases here, where the chances are just so enhanced going ED to a second choice school that the kid just can't pass it up, but with another school not offering the option but with equally low odds possibly letting the student know early--well, the kid just might say, enough is enough, I am done. So, yes, it can happen legitimately, but to try to game the system on such a slender thread of time between the ED and EA notifications, is just too risky in getting the OP into an ethical quagmire.

As for changing an ED to RD, though it is certainly permissable, it is not something I would want to do as it denotes a drop in demonstrated interest. I guess you have to do it if you suddenly getting a burning desire to go elsewhere, but I don't think it's a very good move. I have seen kids do it when they hear of a great scholarship or program they overlooked in their college search, but invariably, I have found that if the original ED school was highly selective, attracting that kind of negative attention to the app results in a deny. Though if you have a super good reason to do this and can communicate it, it may be a good option, but most of these changes in mind are teenage whims which adcoms have little patience for. A big change in family fortunes or situations could be a reason, where suddenly you have to be financially aware, or an emergency situation--illness, death.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 01:57 am: Edit

Unfortunate combination of dates. . .and a very clever set of deadlines and policies at UNC. It will be interesting to see how they work for them. No harm in asking if UNC would notify her earlier than Jan 31, but I don't see where they would benefit by doing so. Offering to treat the EA app as an ED app might be the best way to play this, but as noted above, large state schools are typically not known for bending their rules.

I would really like to know exactly how much of a reach UNC is, and how much of a reach School B is. This could really affect the strategy. If UNC is truly a reach I'd think about ED I at School B. If she gets in - she is in at one of her favorites. If she is rejected or deferred, she'd have a couple of weeks to get an RD app in at UNC so she'd at least feel like she tried. (Note that it is very possible that the only benefit of EA at UNC is the early notification.)

Since she feels she'd also be happy at other schools (very glad to see that information added!) maybe it's best to focus on those schools and make sure the remainder of her list has some good choices for her talent and interests. Maybe another favorite will emerge in that process. Good luck!

By Pokey318 (Pokey318) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 07:58 am: Edit

The only reason UNC is a reach is she is from out of state. UNC only accepts 18% from out of state and several from her school are applying. The ED II school in the past has accepted 1/3 of their freshman class through ED. I believe this school is a match or slight reach for her, but she was afraid after the ED pool of students she might not be admitted.

As I mentioned before, I believe my daughter would be happy at any of the schools she is applying to. Her first choice has been a dream for years, yet she would not be crushed if she wasn't accepted. Yes she would be upset, but knowing that her other school are a fit for her I think she would be fine after the initial "I can't get in anywhere" cry. I have seen kids get quite upset over not being admitted to a school only because a classmate got in with lesser credentials(in the students opinion). This happens because a students had a parent attend that school,the student has some special talent, or the student is a minority.

She is not willing to apply ED to a school over UNC; that is a gamble she isn't interested in. So, that leaves her to apply to UNC EA, and RD to all her other schools. I don't see checking with UNC to ask for an earlier notification. Why would they do that for her? If she were some fabulous student that UNC couldn't live without, I could understand; not for your typical high school student.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:40 am: Edit

The key to this situation is the attitude toward the other schools on her list. . HER attitude toward those schools, as assuming your match/reach classifications are accurate, there is a pretty good chance that she will end up at a school other than UNC or School B. She needs to believe she would be happy at any of the schools on her list, or at the very least at those that are certain admits.

As your D noted, schools that admit high percentages of students ED can be very choosy in the RD phase. Last fall, my nephew applied RD to two of those schools and he was rejected at one and waitlisted at the other. I'm certain he would have been in at the waitlist school had he applied ED. But he did like the other schools on his list and is happy with his final choice, which he had ranked in the #3 spot.