Worried About Mom

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Discus: Parents Forum: 2004 Archive - Part 2: Worried About Mom
By Karie (Karie) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Hi parents: This is an emotional post. Lately, I've been worrying every single day what my parents will do when I leave for college. I am the glue that keeps this family together. My mom has had a few fits where she either goes into total withdrawal or hysterical screaming/crying if you happen to say the wrong thing...my dad is stubborn and hot-tempered too, which doesn't help. My mom has some issues (low self-esteem, bad experiences, etc) that she becomes "physco" about if provoked enough. It is hard on me because my family IS my life and I can't help but wonder what my parents will do when I leave. There inevitably will be fights and I am truly scared that they will either truly hurt each other and then divorce or that my mom will just totally loose it one day. This summer, during a fight, when we were alone at a friend's house in another city, she totally lost it. She screamed, cried, threatened and became a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PERSON. I don't think I've ever been that scared in my life. I didn't have anyone to turn to and I didn't know what to do. Here right before me was my best friend, my guidance, my light, my life breaking down. After awhile, she calmed down. But its like if you happen to hit the wrong nerve on the wrong day, she can become very emotionally unstable. I don't know if this happens to everyone, esp women nearing their late 40s (moms some input?), but it is scaring me to death. As long as I am here, I can at least mediate between my parents, who are ok, but if they fight, they REALLY fight.
Anyways my mom is normally fine, but I live in fear that she will loose it one day. I don't know what to do, my dad doesn't understand, my mom would NEVER go to a counselor/therapist. There was even once when she told me that she wanted to hurt herself before. I don't know if it was just a passing thought or a real contemplation. Im so scared, right now she is one of her "silent, depressed" moods where she pushes me away. Sometimes we talk for 5 hours about her temper, life, and family, but othertimes, its like she hates me and I hate myself for bringing up the wrong subject or pushing something too far. Please any input/advice would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

See if you can get her to see a doctor. You could encourage her to get a routine health checkup.

Before she goes, privately call the doctor and describe some of your concerns about your mom's behavior. Her actions may be due to a medical problem that the doctor could assist with.

If your mom won't respond to your encouragement to see a doctor, see if a friend of hers or another family member can help.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit

First, screaming, brooding moms are NOT the norm. Your mom's condition has nothing to do with menopause. Most likely, she is suffering from a mental health disorder.

She needs help, but you do too. Find out about the NMHO (National Mental Health Organization) in your area. They have support groups for families living with mental illness. A support group can help you sort through the issues of independence. You might even consider private counselling.

Sadly, you cannot 'fix' your mom's problems. It would be a shame to sacrifice your life to trying. In her lucid moments, I'm sure your mom wants you to reach full independence

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I agree, your mom needs professional help. It is a medical condition, and unfortunately, it is affecting her relationship with your dad and you. But I suspect it is eminently treatable. Someone I know suffered from wild mood swings for years before he was probably diagnosed. Now he is under very low dose medication. He is still opinionated, but does not go on a rampage if one disagrees with him, and he is happily remarried.

Good luck to you and your mom.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Another thought
Tell your mom you want to see a therapist, and let therapist bring your mom into 1st or 2nd session to discuss family stresses.Its not the norm for you to spend 5 hours being your mom's therapist, and frequently being mediator.
At some point, you may need to call 911. If your mom gets hospitalized, she will get the start of treatment she needs. She may say she hates you for this, but ultimately, it could be safety line she needs.

By Voronwe (Voronwe) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 08:09 pm: Edit

No it is emphatically NOT normal behavior, and NOT something that happens to all moms.

My heart truly goes out to you. I have seen this kind of behavior before. If nothing else, read a little about mental illness....I don't want to throw around terms like I am an expert, but this really does sound like a classic "bipolar" disorder. It is not your fault; you did not cause it and do not bring it on by bringing up certain topics; you cannot fix it. There are support groups - perhaps even online - for family members of the ill, where you can learn to keep loving them but not allow them to destroy your life in the process.

I know you love her, and when she can see it, she loves you. This is so hard on the children.
Sometimes, not always, it helps to be upfront and say directly to the person that it's too much, that you will not allow yourself to be treated this way. If they are near lucid, sometimes it works. Sadly, usually it doesn't.

What often works best is just not to feed it - don't cry, try to help, try to reason - at least not while she is IN the mood. It never helps and just wears you out.

The best of luck to you. For your own sanity you have to get away, and do not blame yourself for what happens when you are at college.
EDIT - I posted before I saw other the responses, and they are good, especially about YOU going to a therapist first...

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Others have offered you good, sound advice.

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you, Karie. Home is supposed to be a safe place, a haven...I hope everything goes well with you and that your Mom gets the help that she needs....

I wish I could give you a hug!

By Karie (Karie) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Thanks for all the heartfelt responses thus far. The problem with going to a therapist is: 1) I really have no time as I am balancing school, friends, and college apps at the moment and 2) my parents "dont believe in therapists" and would never willingly talk to a "stranger" about problems (this is their view,not mine).
I really dont know if my mom has a medical condition. MOST of the time, she is wonderful. She has the normal mood swings like everyone, the good and the bad days. It's just that when you hit a nerve w her, she really goes physco. This doesn't happen often, but the few times that it has happened, has scared me beyond anything. Once she had a lot of trouble breathing bc she got so mad and cried so hard. For me personally, I could never get so mad as to go insane, but she does. The infamous night mentioned in my first post, she screamed in this high pitch voice and kept saying how no one appreciates her and how everyone hates her and how she hates everyone. That night, I remember thinking that she was probably going to kill herself. She has mentioned suicide before too, but not as often. I've been her personal therapist ever since I could remember. We would talk about her problems, I would convince her that life has meaning, etc. and then she would be better. I feel that these talks have greatly benefited her, but there are many things out of my control. It really doesn't help that my dad is not an emotional person. Hes a great guy, but he doesn't understand people and their feelings and spends most of his time at work or playing tennis (which is a current source of arguement btwn them). I believe that if my mom had met the right guy, (the kind that is romantic, emotional, and nourishing) she wouldn't be like this. Anyways, I'm glad I can vent somewhere. Thanks.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 09:31 pm: Edit

It really has little to do with whom she married and what kind of personality your Dad has. This is exactly what happened to the person I know. Ordinarily, he was delightful; but if someone hit a nerve, he could just lose it. SInce taking medication, he is his delightful self all the times and people don't have to tiptoe around him any more.
If you can convince your mom that it is a medical issue rather than a psychological one, or a matter of personality, she might be more amenable. Does she have high blood pressure? That could be a pretext for further medical intervention. She could discuss her mood swings without going into detail about the issues that trigger them.

By Robyrm (Robyrm) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

When I was your age I thought my mother was erratic, labile and frightening at times. Most of the time she was just fine...maybe a little sad- just like you describe. I thought the problem was her...I knew she was taking medication sometimes, though I didn't know what specifically.I knew my parents had problems, mostly financial. However, I really thought her behavior was a major cause of their problems.

It was only as a young adult that I learned otherwise- that my father's issues were what were causing her to be as she was (plus, some degree of intrinsic vulnerability that she certainly had). Now I realize that the problem wasn't really her, the problem was him- it was just that she was the more expressive one.

What I am saying here is that although you are in the middle of it, and appear to appreciate some of what each parent contributes to your environment, the whole picture may not be transparent.

I would talk with your father about your concerns. I would also talk with a minister, priest or rabbi if your family has one. If you don't get anywhere with this, and if your father is not responsive to your concerns..then I would talk to another adult (aunt, uncle, family friend, mother's doctor)...enlist an adult in helping you to help your parents. Your parents may not want to "air the dirty laundry", but you cannot and should not feel you have to take this on alone..

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:44 pm: Edit


I think you should seek help from your school counselor. It isn't fair for you to be placed in this situation, where you're shouldering the work to stabilize your family. And, aside from your mom's "episodes", I bet she feels the same way. She doesn't want you to be saddled with her illness.

I'm no psychologist, but I do have some experience with moms who "fly off the handle". I don't think your mom is "bipolar". She sounds like she has many characteristics of a disorder called "borderline". The difference in bipolar and borderline is that bipolar episodes of depression and mania tend to last for longer period of time...weeks, months....But, bordreline people are normal most of the time, then become "set off" by something (hence the term "borderline"..because they are always on the verge of crossing into hysterics). These people "go off" for small things......something you say....something you do....what would make a normal person a little annoyed would send a borderline person into a violent rage. Or, things that normal people wouldn't care about at all will set a borderline person off. My mom is borderline. The wrong birthday present would set her into a fit....or giving it to her too late in the day on her birthday.....or spilling something....or agreeing with someone she disliked....pr disagreeing with ANYTHING she thought, felt, said...was cause for It's very scary to live like this......I know. Borderline people are also very manipulative....even with their own children and loved ones. The thing I noticed most about them is that they MUST believe that everyone loves them and is happy with them. If they feel the least bit insecure about something, they freak out and get hysterical. They're very infantile in their approach to life. It's a nightmare to be a child in these families because the person who shuold be taking care of you is actually in need of more care....and takes the brunt of the attention.

Now, the big danger for YOU is that you're living in a family that doesn't give you any clue as to what a normal, healthy emotionally connected family feels like. Has your mom always been this way? As you grow up and go out on your own, you'll have to figure out what's normal and what isn't....and in finding your own place in your own eventual family, you'll have to "unlearn" all of this crap and learn what's healthy. You're at risk for abusive relationships as an adult.

I'm sorry that you feel so responsible...like you need to talk your mom out of suicide or her hysterics. And, maybe your dad realizes that he can't control it, so he distanced himself. There is medication to help your mom, but she has to want to get help. Meanwhile, you have to worry about yourself because she's not doing that for you like she should.

Your mom owes it to YOU to get herself together. She's wiring your mind the wrong way...and you'll have to shoulder the responsibility to fix yourself, at some point. Better start now....

From reading your posts, you're already being affected in a seriously dangerous way....with believing that YOU can control this for her....you can't and you'll practically kill yourself trying. So stop now.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:50 pm: Edit

I found a few sites that discuss Borderline Disorder...but this page feels especially well written and accurate to me....

Maybe this would help you in being able to vocalize what's going on to someone helpful....

I really hope this helps.


By Patient (Patient) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:53 pm: Edit

I find myself agreeing with Robyrm. None of us can diagnose from a distance, all we can do is offer insights and suggestions, but I think you may be right that she may not be mentally ill, or at least that whatever milder condition she might have is completely exacerbated by a very stressful marriage.

I know we all wish we could help. Can you, at least, speak with a counselor at school (if there is one) to help yourself and maybe get some ideas about how to cope? This may have to wait until your college apps are done, because I know how jam-packed the fall of senior year is.

I know that sometimes people resist any type of counseling. They think it is a sign of weakness or mental illness. In fact, a lot of therapy is just learning skills to deal better with relationships and feelings. If you keep repeating that idea, perhaps at some point she will agree to see someone. I also think that you can call her physician and explain your concerns. The physician won't be able to tell you anything because of confidentiality rules, but he/she may be able to ask your mom, when she has her physical (if she does) how things are going and may also be able to guide her.

Please, just don't sacrifice your own life to the problems of your parents. It is true that you cannot abandon them because you care about them--but you will be better able to help them if you are also taking care of your own future and not feeling that you are sacrificing your life for theirs.

By Patient (Patient) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Momsdream, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but borderline personality disorder is a difficult diagnosis to make, even for a psychiatrist who has worked with a patient for some time. I really would hesitate to offer a diagnosis from a brief description of a situation.

I think that the main thing is to seek professional help.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Did I diagnose it? I said I'm not a professional, so I'm obviously not diagnosing anything.

I offered he a personal account of what I experienced said it sounds she has many of the charactristics. That isn't a disgnosis, it's a recollection of personal events and an opinion about what might be going on based on that recollection.....followed by a website that the poster can use to do more research.

Why are some of us so willing to talk about who will and won't get into what college all day long, based on what we've read, heard and experienced....but beyond that discussion, we can't offer help from a distance.

I'll return to only asking questions....

By Helicoptermom (Helicoptermom) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Karie--I really feel for you. I also agree with the posts that say the position you're in--feeling responsible for keeping your family together and convincing your mother to go on living--isn't healthy for either you or your family. You can't necessarily change your parents' ideas about therapy, but this is too big a burden for you to be carrying alone: I hope you can find a way to seek help for yourself in coping with this, ideally with a therapist but perhaps a guidance counselor or religious leader you trust would be a place to start. I know that this is an incredibly busy time for you, but all this family anxiety has to be draining your energy still further, and someone who can put things into perspective could help make your life simpler rather than more complicated. Otherwise, even if you sail through college admissions, it sounds as if it's going to be incredibly difficult for you to go ahead and leave home when it's time to do so.

Good luck, and please do find someone who can help you find a balance between your obvious love and sense of responsibility for your mother, and your legitimate need to start making a life of your own.

By Bookiemom (Bookiemom) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

Karie: you need some help yourself to be able to get through your senior year and then off to college in a positive way. Please talk to your school counselor and/or your principal and simply tell them you need some professional help to deal with a difficult family situation. They may be able to arrange a few sessions of counseling for you if your parents will give their permission. (Our school district has special funding and arrangements with outside counselors for this.) Then perhaps that counselor can arrange for some ongoing family counseling. I think you need this so you will have help making the transition to college. It's hard for kids even without all these family issues.

Are you applying to colleges at a fair distance away--not half an hour's drive? That would be a good idea (farther rather than nearer). As soon as you start college, you can connect with a counselor there to help you further with these issues.

Please do try to deal with this so you can just be responsible for your own growing-up issues. It can be very hard to separate from a mother with boundary issues (I know because I have one), and you need a professional to help you so you don't separate in ways that don't benefit you in the long run.

Good luck to you--you are obviously a caring, loving and smart young woman.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 02:16 am: Edit

Karie; You realize you are being as stubborn as your mom about getting help? These wise CC parents are advising you to get support because they know that you need to sort thorugh some of thsi with professionals so that you make the best college choices (the wrong apps are useless apps) and so that if you do move away, you have some coping mechanisms in place.

I think any professional reading your words :"Scared as anything" would want to meet with you as soom as possible.

Hardly any of the time munching excuses you gave are as important as your mental health! Don't fall into the same trap as your poor mom!

By Nedad (Nedad) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 05:45 am: Edit

She has the normal mood swings like everyone, the good and the bad days. It's just that when you hit a nerve w her, she really goes psycho....I've been her personal therapist ever since I could remember. We would talk about her problems, I would convince her that life has meaning, etc.

While some might back off from saying your mom is mentally ill, I don't know what you'd call the above (sorry to correct your spelling of "psycho!"). What you have described may be "normal" for you but it is most emphatically NOT NORMAL for the rest of the world! If you have to be her therapist, and if you have to "convince her that life has meaning," there is a real problem here. I agree with Cheers. Don't go into denial. Saying she'd "never go" to a therapist isn't helping her. I would sit her down and TELL her that her so-called "mood swings" are a sign that something is seriously, seriously wrong, and that you've had to bear the brunt of it.

And sorry... any mother that consistently uses her daughter as a crutch, a therapist, a recipient of screaming and the one who has to listen to suicide threats and being told she is "hated".....well, if she is not mentally ill, then the only other explanation is that there is a big part of her that is manipulative, cruel, or worse. If you insist she is not mentally ill and doesn't need help, I would take everyone's wise and kindly meant advice to get some therapy yourself. Everyone can find an hour or two a week out of their busy schedules! Or else you may end up like her. Perhaps you don't realize it, but by defending her behavior you have already internalized the severely abnormal as "normal mood swings."

I wish you all the luck in the world. This is a very sad and complex situation. It sounds as if you are the only one who can act and make some good out of an extremely dysfunctional situation.

Your father should be of more help. Maybe you should sit HIM down and say, "Look. Other families DON'T act this way. Mom is NOT NORMAL." Maybe he just needs a wake-up call.

By Mom2003 (Mom2003) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 08:04 am: Edit

You have a lot of good advise above so do what you can. But remember, you are not responsible for your parents and their lives. Your primary responsibility right now is to look after yourself and build a life for yourself. You may well be able to help them best by taking care of yourself and as you get older, being in a position where you can offer help, if needed.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have had to tell many friends (whose children have emotional or substance abuse problems) that they are not responsible for their children, they should do what they can to offer a supportive home environment but ultimately each child makes his/her decision. For a parent this is hard to take, for a child I hope this would be easier.

By Fredo (Fredo) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 10:52 am: Edit

Karie: I'm sorry that you are going through this. It's not fair that the burden of maintaining mental health in your family is falling on you. You've received great advice so I won't repeat that but know that all of us are thinking of you and hoping that you take care of yourself first because you matter also.

By Movinmom (Movinmom) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 11:33 am: Edit

Karie, I concur with the advice that you find a way to talk to your mom's doctor. She probably has yearly physicals and if she has any prescriptions you can easily find the name. Her doctor will not be able to divluge any information about your mom, but s/he can listen and factor this in to a treatment plan. In the last week we have been very concerned about disturbing and erratic behavior of one of our parents that has always been present but has become very pronounced and almost dangerous of late. Last night we called the parent's doctor and formulated a plan which in our case will involve the doctor making a pretense visit, etc.

Your mom's problem is probably complex and beyond what you are capable of handling. You can not assume responsibility for fixing it without professional guidance and help. There could be issues you aren't aware of. Is alcohol a factor? By this I don't mean that your mom is an alcoholic but sometimes alcohol, even in small doses, can exacerbate problems.

Sometimes we unknowlingly, and with the best of intentions, do our loved ones a disservice by enabling them and allowing the problem to go untreated. I am not saying you did this and applaud you for the compassion, energy and love you have for your mom. But based on personal experience, I would urge you to get medical help for your mom now. Believe me, these problems will continue until you are dealing with parents in their late 70s and 80s. The problems are the same - they just become worse and more pronounced; people get more entrenched in their ways; and physical infirmities complicate the problems. Get some support for you too even if it is calling a hotline!! If your mom has a sister, brother or friend who is close, they may be able to help you.

Good luck!!!

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Karie: You're getting plenty of advice on your post. Mine is a different type.

I think that all will agree that for privacy reasons, if you wish to post on such a topic you should use a screen nane other than your own and should delete your name from your profile.

An excellent suggestion. I have taken the liberty of deleting your last name from your profile. Karie, if you wish to apply for a different screen name, please e-mail admin@collegeconfidential.com immediately and explain the reason and select a new screen name.

--Moderator Obiwan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Ouch ouch ouch.

Karie, a few things, all of which are important:

1) Your mom is NOT normal and she needs help that you can not provide. Others have given some good suggestions, such as contacting her doctor, etc.

2) *You* are not responsible for what happens to your mom. I sense that you're stuck in a role reversal where you're more competent and able to give care than those who should be giving care to you. The circumstances alone are a horrible burden for you to be bearing as you get ready to head off to college; this responsibility for "fixing it" is way beyond that and is not yours.

3) You must *make* time for some counseling for yourself. You will do yourself no good in college or anywhere else if you are living according to perceptions warped by your experience with your mom or if you are damaged by this experience...and, please, no "Aww, it's not that bad." I know the lyrics to that song and it's a self-defeating bit of music to live with. Please...get some professional help for yourself.

By Karie (Karie) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Thanks for the caring responses and great advice! I looked at the borderline personality website and fortunately, my mom does NOT fit many of the descriptions. Yes she has issues with self-esteem and feeling misunderstood, but it is not often and there are a few very personal issues that she does not like anyone to ever bring up- skeletons in her closet if you will. Anyhow, maybe she has a mild case of borderline, but then again, I'm no expert. As far as I can remember, my mom has always had a "bad temper"- tantrums, she used to throw things, screaming, etc. during a particularly big fight. But like I said before, these do not occur that frequently as to warrant a medical illness.
Anyways I am going to look into counseling and see if there is any available help convenient to my time. I again want to thank everyone for being genuinely concerned and helpful. It's nice knowing that there are people who care out there.
Btw, I have talked to a close friend, who thinks my mom just has "uncontrollable rage" and that she is normal, just more unstable than most people are during fights.
Again, many thanks.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit

We're very proud of you for seeking help for yourself. It's never easy to step into those waters--but it may be helpful.

Maybe your example will spill over into the rest of your family!

Anyway, you are finding strength. Well done.

(ps I have a bi-polar brother)

By Anxiousmom (Anxiousmom) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 10:41 pm: Edit

"{Lately, I've been worrying every single day what my parents will do when I leave for college. I am the glue that keeps this family together"

Here's just my added "take care of yourself" advice. Please take care of yourself. Your parents had a relationship before you were born, and they will continue to have one after you go away to college. It sounds like you have acted as a go-between and peacemaker for the family; without you there your parents will have a different dynamic and may find a different way to interact. (Maybe better, maybe worse, but different. A 3-way relationship is always a different dynamic than a 2-way relationship.) It is not your job to fix their relationship or to keep the family together - and the truth is that by trying to smooth things down and hold everything together, you may not really have helped them, and you sure have stressed yourself. You have all my sympathy. Luckily, you are not God, and do not have a lot of power. You do not have the power to fix your Mom's and Dad's marriage, to glue together their relationship, to keep your Mom's temper, to make her happy, to find meaning in life for her. Hopefully you will come to understand this, and it will be a HUGE relief to you. Your job is to love your family but take care of yourself. Please find some counseling or support group to help take some of the burden off you.

By Helicoptermom (Helicoptermom) on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 10:44 pm: Edit


It's wonderful to hear that you are looking into counseling to help you cope with what sounds like a very tough situation. Even if your mom does need help, if she isn't willing to seek it out, that's not something that you can control. (It's like the old lightbulb joke: How many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb? One, but the lightbulb really has to want to change.) By seeking out help for yourself, you will gain insights that may help your mom as well as yourself--and will help ensure that an unhappy family pattern doesn't continue for generations. I'm very impressed by the thoughtfulness and compassion that you show in your posts, and believe that you deserve to have this weight lifted from your shoulders.

By Bluealien01 (Bluealien01) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 07:58 am: Edit

I agree with Anxiousmom. The OP is the child, not the parent. I thought the relationship worked the other way around--the parent helps the child with issues. If the mother won't go to a counselor, I don't see how the OP can force her or get someone else to force her unless she tries to physically harm someone else.

By Voronwe (Voronwe) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:56 am: Edit

Karie has decided, despite all the parents on this board, that her mother's uncontrollable rages, manipulative suicide threats, saying she "hates" her daughter, and the fact that she (quoting Karie) "threatens" her and turns into a "totally different person" all fall under the range of "normal." This is heartbreaking - Karie's view, not just the mother's irrational behavior. Thank heavens she has the courage to seek help. I hope it's a good therapist - one who might let her see that her internalizing this outrageous behavior as within the "normal range" could bode ill for her OWN emotional future.

Karie - please, listen to someone with years and years of experience: your mother's behavior is way, way, WAY out of the range of "normal." You don't see it and don't believe us only because it is all you have ever known.

You're in a lot of people's prayers......

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Amen. All of what Voronwe just said.

Karie, please read the above post carefully again.

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