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There seem to be an abundance of posts on how well kids are doing at college but my kid is struggling. She has moved across the country to a top Ivy League where she is in a very selective and demanding humanities program. The workload is overwhelming her and she's not happy in the program. She's past the point of dropping the classes but every week when the paper is due she calls upset because the nature of the material is challenging and she feels overwhelmed and unhappy. Anyone been through this?

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Haven't been through it, but I've thought about that potential scenario.

My advice would be to urge your daughter to reach out to the mentoring resources on campus. For example, there may be student mentors available to help freshmen adjust to college academics. Also, there may well be a student writing workshop, where a trained student writing instructor can work with an individual student.

One of the seniors in the parents forum at my daughter's school said she now meets with a writing mentor even before she writes her first draft, just to bounce ideas around.

At other schools, it may require reaching out to the professor, the TAs, or the Dean of Student's office. Whatever the mechanism, I guarantee there are resources to help.

Also, it's quite possible that she is not really feeling as bad as she lets on. It's apparently very common for students to "vent" to their parents and the parents end up getting a somewhat skewed view of how things are really going.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:34 pm: Edit

I agree with ID.
Besides what ID suggested, she could also investigate study groups or study buddies (my H and his roommate used to quiz each other for their music 101 class; my S found a study buddy for his bio class). It's okay to ask someone to comment on a paper draft. Remind her that she should not study completely on her own, though of course the end product must be hers alone.
But if she is really struggling, is it still possible to add/drop courses? If she wanted to drop a course, has she got another one in mind?

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I should have added that she has tried to get mentoring fairly unsuccessfully. The tutor for the program she is in is booked solid for two weeks. The writing tutor for her residential college hates philosophy and couldn't help her discuss her philosophy paper and the office hours have been booked with professors. And everywhere she goes people question why she is in this program which makes her feel worse. I sent an e-mail to the program director pointing out that my D is struggling and having difficulty accessing resources. I needed to do something to feel pro-active.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

I don't have much experience but I think what InterestedDad wrote and Marite wrote is such excellent advice! Those are some very concrete things she could look into. That might just give her a step to take so that it is not overwhelming. I also think ID's comment that it may not be as bad as she is venting, is truly a possibility.

The idea of going to one of the resources like a writing center might really help, even though she is used to being a kid who does not need assistance. Just to share, while my D has not sounded as if she is struggling, she actually commented that her first paper is due on Monday and she decided to show her draft to a mentor at the writing center before handing it in. She commented that while she is a confident writer, she just wants to get feedback there from someone as to how her paper looks for college, so to speak and added that she may not ever do that again but wanted to this first time. So, I shared that because even though she did not sound overwhelmed or unhappy, she is even utilizing such a resource, so I think your D might give that a whirl. Also, I liked the suggestions of all the academic deans and such that are available for such guidance. I can't recall if your daughter is at Harvard or not, but I think they have resident (not sure the right title), "fellows?" who are there in the residencies to help students with this kind of thing. I loved, as well, the suggestion of the study group with others in the course. Marite's advice to consider any course changes might also be one option. I know at Brown and at Harvard, there is a shopping period where they may try out classes and add/drop for a two week period. Even if her school does not have an actual shopping period, there might be a way to add or drop this early on in the semester. Conferring with an academic dean or similar person, would be good for her. Her advisor might also be one to speak with.

My guess is that she might feel awkward asking for support, having been a student who excelled in high school and not used to the level of challenge and the whole academic environment that comes with being in these highly selective colleges. It is very different. The good news is that your daughter is at least reaching out and talking to someone, you, about this and not wallowing alone. Let us know what she thinks of the options posted above. I think with that assistance, she will make it over this initial hurdle. It is a big transition for everyone.

Susan

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Mim...I did not see your last post before I posted above. But I think you did a very good thing in being pro active and making the program director aware of her struggling and inability to tap into the resources. That person hopefully will look into the situation. She may need a mentor and the idea of them all being booked is not acceptable. I am glad you let someone know. I now think she is at a different university, not H, and she might be in that certain really demanding academic program they have. Does your D really want to be part of that program? I am not sure I got the thoughts behind others questioning her being in it. Did they mean she was nuts to take that program on? Or were they commenting about her specifically (can't imagine that as they barely know her and that just is not a friendly thing to say)? I will assume the first thing I asked. So, does she have to committ to that demanding program? Maybe it was not the right choice and she should be in the regular curriculum at that college. But on the other hand, if they accepted her into this program, she likely can do it but might need some assistance and assurance and positive feedback on her work so she can manage it and also realize that her work is good, or whatever the issues are that arise.

Hugs to you as it is hard to deal with this from afar but that is part of what college is about, your child having to now seek out help and so forth independently. It sounds like she did try and so I am glad you made someone aware of what is going on and how there is a student who does not know where to go for help and guidance. I am not necessarily suggesting she switches out of that program within the college, but was curious if she is bound to that program (did not give the name of it but have an idea).

Susan

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Mimk:

It seems odd to me that a writing tutor refuses to help because s/he hates philosophy. Unless your D asked the tutor to dissect Plato or Kant, all that is needed is for the tutor to read the paper and make comments: is there a thesis topic? What evidence do you have to support your argument? Is the essay well organized? Are the transitions appropriate? Is it internally consistent? The tutor does not have to agree or disagree with the thesis that is presented. But anyone worth being paid as a tutor ought to be able to help a freshman with a paper, be it on film, anthropology, history, philosophy or what have you. And if that tutor refuses to help b/c s/he does not like a certain field, s/he ought to be reported.

In the meantime, what to do? Perhaps your D could email the prof (remember, you don't have to wait until office hours to talk to the prof); she can even send her draft to the prof and ask for preliminary feedback, such as "Am I on the right track?" She could try to locate a tutor outside her residential college (is there a writing center?) or find out if there is a graduate student who would be willing to help her out (perhaps by contacting the relevant department and ask to speak to the director or coordinator of graduate studies?) If she has friends, she could ask them to take a look at her draft and ask if it makes sense to them. They don't have to be experts. If they query something, chances are it needs further explanation.

Hope this helps.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:12 pm: Edit

"The tutor for the program she is in is booked solid for two weeks. The writing tutor for her residential college hates philosophy and couldn't help her discuss her philosophy paper and the office hours have been booked with professors"

Doesn't sound like that great a program/school to me. Maybe she should email her prof? I can't imagine that wouldn't provoke a response. Besides working with tutors/profs on paper drafts one son found a group of like-minded individuals in the dorm, all used to having academic parents critique their work, and they traded papers with each other. My son is an excellent writer (lol if I do say so myself) but wouldn't dream of ever turning in a paper without some input/feedback. He knows it can always be improved and sees his writing as a process.

By Achat (Achat) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:15 pm: Edit

But doesn't the Philosophy department itself have TAs who can help? Or tutors if you ask at the department office?

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

"she can even send her draft to the prof and ask for preliminary feedback, such as "Am I on the right track?"

yes! my s does this so natually it seems to me appropriate lol Great post Marite.

By Archermom (Archermom) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:30 pm: Edit

There must also be resident upperclass men/women with whom she can consult or bounce ideas off. Encourage D to seek out all avenues...the support systems should be there.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

My son was in a similar situation. He went to a very demanding college, and was way over his head. He did drop courses his first term, and was barely full time as a result of that, and still did not do well. He picked more classes than the usual load second term, but easier classes, and made up the deficit in credits over the summers so he did end up graduating in 4 years. I would not have bet a cent that this would have happened. He also switched programs.

Many kids will be switching programs and majors. It is no disgrace. If your D decides she does not like the workload or the type of work in a program she thought she would like, she can switch. She may have to take a hit in credits for a term, but she can make it up over the summer.

I was a pure math major when I went to college, and quickly discovered that I did not want to put the time in that was necessary to be competitive in that program. My stats were as good as most of the other kids in their, better than some, but I well knew that I wanted to spend less time working on the subject than necessary. I really wanted to have a social life, some down time that just would not have been possible had I stayed in the program, so I switche to an area major that allowed much more flexibility and some easier courses. No shame at all in doing that. There are other things in life than the academics, and if it takes more time than a student can comfortably give to get through a program, he should swallow his pride and start rethinking his priorities. I know I was reluctant initially about switching for ego reasons, but when I sat down and thought about myself, it made no sense for me to be pounding salt for the next few years when I did not truly have a deep commitment to the subject.

Your student should also visit the mental health center on campus and start talking to someone there. Often they can pick up the phone and cut through the red tape and get help for a student who is struggling. I know of some kids who were really having trouble at a college that is not at all nurturing, but they did get a psychologist or social worker at the health center to intervene on their behalf, and it did make things better. It's always good to know some there anyways. These can be turbulent years, mentally and emotionally, and it's good to have some who is experienced in this field.

I will say a prayer for you and your D. And, you are certainly not alone. Many kids have adjustment issues, make mistakes in course selection, major selection and everything under the sun and need help. Many kids end up truly unhappy at college. Some stick it out, some go elsewhere. I hope things work out for the best.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

I just looked up this "program" and I have to say that I agree with the students who are asking your daughter, WHY?

If I am reading the syllabus correctly, she is, during her first months as a freshman, studying Greek Literature, Greek Philosophy, AND Greek Political thought?

To put it mildly, that is a masochistic course load -- reading Homer, Plato, and Greek political philosophy simultaneously. My golden rule of college course selection is to balance the reading loads so you don't end up with multiple inscrutible philosophy-type reading lists at the same time and so that at least one course has fun, interesting reading that doesn't seem like work. For example, in the semester where you take Political Philosophy, you definitely don't want to take another course with similarly ponderous, dense reading.

If this were my son or daughter, I would seriously discuss the option of bailing out of this program. I can't imagine that she WOULDN'T be struggling and unhappy.

This is quite a three course hat-trick:

Course 1) In the fall term, works and authors include Homer, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Virgil, the Bible, and Dante.

Course 2) Emphasis on Plato and Aristotle in the fall term.

Course 3) In the fall term, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas.

All I can say is that I hope her fourth course isn't an advanced math-intensive Physics course with weekly labs!

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:42 am: Edit

Thank you for all the great responses. I'll talk over the suggestions with her tomorrow. She was thinking of visiting the counseling center tomorrow -- her idea. The response of "why are you in this program" is a general one -- not specific to her. Of course, since her feelings now are quite ambivalent about it she can't be confident in her answer. The shopping period is over and she is committed for the semester. Her fourth class is a class she absolutely loves and enjoys and is not overly demanding. She also likes her profs in this program and her sections and has made some friends -- it's not all nightmarish. She was accepted into the program before she made her decision re college and it was one thing that made this school seem more attractive. She likes history and humanities and is a good writer -- it seemed like she would get a cohesive overview of Western Civ and elimate three of four distribution requirements in the process. The program is said to turn out good writers and thinkers. It's also small -- two discussion groups with a professor with 17 people -- not something you find much in the freshman year. She's read some Sophocles and the Bible so will have a big advantage in that portion of the reading. My computer is crashing -- to be continued...

By Cheers (Cheers) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:01 am: Edit

Glad to hear she is going to the counseling center.

Maybe you can help her ease up on herself.

It sounds like a tough tough program and she should expect to be "culture-shocked" for a semester--or even a year. Nevermind! She's still getting the education and she has four years and three summers to fix anything she breaks in the first year.

Besides, it sounds like she is experiencing a transition to a higher level of thought--which Sartre descrbes as "Nausea"!! Welcome to Philosophy!

By Sac (Sac) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:10 am: Edit

Perhaps she just needs to know that it's ok not to get an A on the first paper or even the first course? Maybe it's ok even to get a C because being "average" at Yale (if that's where we're talking about) on your very first paper or your very first semester is still pretty darn good?

She's committed for the semester. Maybe all she needs to hear is that she should get the most out of her courses she can, without worrying about her gpa. Kids get into that mindset from high school. But she will have some 40 or more grades on her transcript when all is said and done and first semester of freshman year will count the very least. Maybe all she needs to hear is that it's ok to enjoy Plato and Homer and Dante and the rest of her wonderful reading list. Let the pre-meds worry about their gpas. It can be joyous to feel your brain expanding.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

Sorry -- my computer initiated a shutdown. We talked to a lot of alum when making a decision and we repeatedly heard that their one regret was not doing this program -- that their roommate (or friend) did it and loved it. The fact she was already in, without applying, made it hard to turn down -- especially when we did hear a lot of positive things. Anyhow, she is bound for the semester -- if she is still miserable at the end, that is the time to reevaluate (it's a yearlong program). However, I think a lot of the difficulty lies in her studying style. Yes, she excelled in high school but she was the kid who studied insanely for the AP U.S. history test long after her teacher assured her there was no way she wouldn't get a 5. She is the kid who wrote 20 page papers in 5th grade because she just couldn't limit herself. I told her repeatedly in high school that she had to learn to prioritize -- she had to figure out what she could skimp on and what she couldn't -- she really did not learn that. Now it's catching up and I think it would catch up no matter what but it's catching up more dramatically because of the intensity of the workload. No one actually does all the reading who has a life and is in that program. You read some, you skim some, you use some cliff notes. She is trying to read every paragraph. I told her two days ago that after this paper we'd work on a schedule that would give her a life. She needs to allocate a certain number of hours a week for reading and writing and that's it -- otherwise she is fully capable (as she has been doing) of reading a paragraph over and over again. She also needs to allocate some sacrosanct time for fun. If she learns that she doesn't need to do everything perfectly and learns to prioritize and manage her time, it may be worth the temporary agony because she needs that skill to get through this college. But for now, she needs some support and, the fact is, her public school education is showing its weaknesses -- some of the kids in the program (and at the school) are just better prepared than she is. I really appreciate (and really needed) the support. I was afraid people would think I was coddling her by e-mailing the director -- thanks for validating my intuition. By the way, re the tutor -- what she really did need was to discuss the material in regards to the prompt -- it was the content that was challenging her -- she couldn't get a handle on the paper until she had a handle on the material -- that's why the tutor couldn't help her -- she may need to go to the department as someone suggested. And from what she says, all of her classmates were also struggling over the material so it would not have been very helpful to talk to them. However, there is only one philosophy paper a month -- literature should be easier and every fourth week there is no paper. I just called her to say goodnight -- it's 1:15 there and she's halfway done (only a five page paper) and says she hit some walls but is now confident she can get through it. She promised she would go to bed tonight (last Thursday she stayed up all night). The vacillation between confidence and misery is what is hard for me -- it's hard to be on a roller coaster from this far away. I'll let you know what response I get from the director.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:23 am: Edit

"Perhaps she just needs to know that it's ok not to get an A on the first paper or even the first course? Maybe it's ok even to get a C because being "average" at Yale"

Absolutely I told her that. Her first paper she was predicting she would never be able to get into graduate school (she still doesn't know what she got on it). I disabused her of that notion and told her it's ridiculous to even be thinking about graduate school and that your freshman grades are pretty inconsequential and that who cares if she gets a C -- or all Cs -- she doesn't have to jump through hoops anymore -- she can just relax and learn for the sake of learning. I think for some of these kids it is easier said than done to let go of the straight A mentality. You guys are great!

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:39 am: Edit

If she's committed, then she'll just have to make the most of a bad situation. I totally agree with you working to lower her expectations. Also, I would say that she may be in better shape than she thinks. I remember one course on Political Philosophy taught by an infamous professor who thought he was Karl Marx. I honestly don't think I understood one word of any reading assigment or lecture for the entire semester, yet I muddled through with some kind of middling B.

That course did change my whole approach to college. After that, I was a LOT more careful to pick courses that had interesting reading and professors who brought the material to life. I stopped taking courses "because I thought I was supposed to..."

I do feel sorry for your daughter because that sounds like a really dreadful freshman program. First, it's a course-load so focused in one direction that it would make more sense as a senior course assortment in a major that you already love. Second, I don't know about your daughter's public high school, but I felt like my daughter never managed to escape the Greek through Medieval time frame in any high school course. English, History, etc. Your daughter has basically signed on as a Classics/Philosophy major at the start of her freshman year and can't sample a very wide range of course options to boot.

For future freshmen parents reading this, sit down with your kids and their course catalog during the summer and go through the departments, sharing your experiences and your spouses experiences with each type of course. Easy? Hard? Entertaining? Give them some perspective on sampling five or six departments and balancing a course-load so that it is manageable and, yes, fun. For example, the semester I took an English lit class on "Ulysses", I knew the reading would be dense and slow-going. So I made sure my Poly Sci class that semester featured "current events" type books that were pretty "breezy" to read.

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 05:28 am: Edit

If it makes you feel any better, I am currently going through the same program as your daughter and it is driving me insane. Right now I am sitting awake in my dorm room trying to finish up my paper about Plato and realizing that even if I do finish it, that it is going to be terrible. I sometimes question why I did this program, but for the most part I enjoy it. I love my literature section, like my philosophy section, and am not too thrilled with my history/political thought section. The workload is intense, but almost everyone that does it survives, and has a strong foundation in Western Civilization.

PS It is quite annoying that the writing tutor is so hard to set up an appointment with, I found myself setting up an appointment for my next paper due in 2 weeks when I failed to set-up a time for this philosophy paper.

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 06:18 am: Edit

This was an eye-opening post for me. I copied it and put it in the "DO NOT DO THIS" file for my two kiddos in high school, a junior and senior. Two older sibs in college have managed to avoid this gruesome scenario, so need to make sure other two don't suffer.

IDad- totally taking your advice and letting kids know about course selection per your advice. I cringed reading Mmk6's description of the unavailable tutors...big insight into a school my junior son was considering. He's gonna love that!

Kat

By Chasgoose (Chasgoose) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 06:57 am: Edit

I just finished my paper and I am surprisingly satisfied with it and I was mainly up this late/early due to procrastination (I could have been done with this a lot sooner). To respond to Katwkittens, the unavailable tutor is only specific to this special program because there is only one in the program for 125 kids, but he is meant to be a course specific supplement to the more general writing tutors available to students. I don't know what residential college mmk6's daughter was in, but I have heard that my residential college tutor has been very helpful and most importantly available when needed. I think this program is worth the work involved for anyone interested in a truly interdisciplinary study of the Western Canon. I really do enjoy my classes, especially the fact that I get a total of 6 seminar sections a week (how often do you get to sit around a table with a Homeric scholar or a National Book Award winner and engage in discussions with them?). Writing my first philosophy paper was difficult, but someone on my floor in an intro english class was up all night with his paper too so it isn't as though this program is tantamount to directed suicide. The one nice thing about it is that since it is an integrated program, I never will have two papers due on the same day this year (which is probably going to be an unbelievable luxury). Once I get the hang of college writing these won't be as bad.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 08:25 am: Edit

Congrats chasgoose!

Mim, now that I have read more of your posts, I really think a lot of it is the transition from being this excellent high achieving student who set high expectations for herself leading up to college and now is faced with extreme challenge and is very concerned about it all. Your daughter's work ethic sounds like my daughter's (the one who just started at Brown). She, too, never cut corners. She would never just skim the book or anything like that. She would go the extra mile on a paper, stay up as late as it took. She did not compete with others but had high standards for herself, and subsequently got straight As (sometimes even A+s) all through school in the most challenging courses. So, of course if she were in the program your D is in, and with her usual high standards of achievement, it likely would feel overwhelming. I think it is good that you discussed with your D that her goal should not be all As like in high school. Just getting through this challenge will be an accomplishment. As Chasgoose pointed out, all the kids likely feel somewhat overwhelmed with the difficulty. If your D can get support with tutors that will help through the early stages of this program.

(I also smiled at your account of 20 page papers in elem school....can relate with my other daughter on that count....did same thing starting in primary grades, and even did a 90 page one in upper elem school.....so I totally understand this kind of kid!!!)

I understand your concern that your D's schoolwork is going to monopolize her every waking moment at this rate. And the material, such as Plato, is difficult (though I recall my daughter having to study Plato at our rural public high school which maybe is not as bad a school as some might think after all). I also think that the counseling center may be able to address the time management thing. I loved your idea of what you would tell her about giving herself a time limit on an assignment or reading or she will go nuts.

My daughter has only been in classes for about ten days. The one thing I have noticed so far but it is early to tell, is that I am joyed to hear she has had social times built in which she actually did not at home. In high school, school took up seven hours, she had ECs every single afternoon and night and weekend, and then this kid worked so hard, often 4-5 hours per night after her 12 hour day of school and EC and often worked 12 hours on weekends on homework around the ECs. She loved what she was doing but there were not open blocks of time to simply have social plans. Her EC activities involved social contact and she loved those. But she never just hung out with kids, ever. And now I hear of her going to this or that, or gathering with some kids on study break midweek even, and I feel delighted to think she has found a way to fit that in. One thing she has that really helps is that her courses are compacted to be all morning and done by lunch. While it does mean starting at 9 (when I told her that was late and she said most college students would not agree with that!), she actually finds starting at 9 to work out because it is still so much later than she left the house in high school (usually at 7:15 for meetings before school) and she liked that this compacting on the schedule gave her a big block of time every afternoon to do work until her ECs kick in later in the day and some evenings, plus Fridays were pretty open with maybe two hours of class. So, this whole time management thing is a different ballgame in college. But so far for my D I have felt it is almost easier than high school with more hours open to do the work and still have your ECs. I don't know if this social time she has fit in around the work and ECs will keep up or not but it is refreshing for me considering she is a student very much like your daughter (and coming from our rural public high school).

So, if your D can work with a counselor to figure out her daily life to fit in this work in such a way to have some social breaks, that will help. Because kids like her (mine too) might just work every available moment otherwise. There has to be a way to manage her load and the suggestions you had for her regarding the reading and such are good ones. I can see how it is hard for her to adjust having been a kid who always read every single page, wrote more than she had to, strived for high standards, etc. It is hard because you do want your kid to do their best so you don't want to knock that down but they have to hear that it is all right to not read every page or to just write the required amount, not more, etc. etc.

I do understand your daughter's dilemma, however, that the content was so difficult that it was hard to get started on the paper not knowing what to write or fully understanding the material. I can see that happening for my daughter with such topics and yes, she would not know where to turn unless being able to approach the teacher. It might get easier for your D once she gets further into this material and routine. But getting the outside help sounds crucial at this early stage of it. As I said, even my daughter, who is confident about her work, chose to run her first college paper by a writing tutor this coming weekend just to see if she is doing things on the level that is appropriate for college. You know, new school....challenging college....very good students.....it is a big big change from their high school!

I still like the idea of a study group. Even if the other kids did not quite get a handle on the material either, they can kick it around til they jointly get somewhere with it.

It does sound like if she gets through this program, she will be able to tackle the rest of Yale down the line. She has to realize that As cannot be the goal of the moment. That, I realize, for a student like her, is hard to fathom but she has to readjust her thinking....this is Yale, and a very difficult Program within it.

I applaud you for trying to support her and I am glad she came to you about it. I think once she gets into meeting with those on campus who are there to help, she will be doing better. These schools really do have a lot of people in place to assist students. We got that message over and over again at any talks we heard on campus.

Let us know how she is doing.

Susan

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 08:34 am: Edit

Glad Chasgoose spoke up. Mim, I was going to say that based on the popular nickname for this course, I've long assumed every student finds it incredibly challenging and exhausting. However, it does also seem to be extremely exciting...in the end. I'd guess it will be like "The Paper Chase;" you hate it while you're in it, but if you love the material it will prove to have been worth doing. So...I wouldn't tend to question your d for taking the program. However, she has every right to the various support services! Isn't that what we pay these vast amounts of money for?

In any college course, my s has learned the hard way that it is always worthwhile to pay a visit to the professor during office hours and hash around his idea for his papers. Then he isn't out there doing his thing on his own, but gets some input and gains some confidence. If the professors' office hours are already booked, can your d do this by email? It seems as though campuses are buzzing these days with emails flying between professors and students...

Is your d one of the super-conscientious kids? The kind who thinks she's going to flunk and then ends up doing very well?

A big hug to you...

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 08:55 am: Edit

>>However, I think a lot of the difficulty lies in her studying style.>>
I think this is the crux of the problem. There are all sorts of stories about super-conscientious students who study so hard that they blank out on test day or who no longer can see the big picture for the myriad details they tried to memorize.There must be a bureau of study skills which she could go to for advice and support.

>>I told her two days ago that after this paper we'd work on a schedule that would give her a life. >>
It might be best to give her some general advice and lend a sympathetic ear, but she should be the one to work out a manageable schedule for herself. The rule of thumb is for every hour of lecture, 3 hours of homework. Also, what about joining a study group with other students in the class? Granted, they are all struggling, but the idea is to thrash out what each of them thinks the reading is about and thus gaining greater clarity of understanding. This is the equivalent of the vaunted small classes: their value lies in the possibility of collaborative learning, not in the seating arrangements.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:04 am: Edit

"Absolutely I told her that. Her first paper she was predicting she would never be able to get into graduate school (she still doesn't know what she got on it)."

Mimk6: okay- you could be describing my son first term freshman year (also the out of control highschool study habits) I know other students like this, too. And they all seemed to calm down after they got a few grades and especially after first term. Good luck! I know it is so hard on a parent to get this sort of call. I think you should encourage her to be in contact as much as possible with her profs: use email, catch them after class, as this interaction imho will increase her confidence level.

"To put it mildly, that is a masochistic course load -- reading Homer, Plato, and Greek political philosophy simultaneously."
Whoa! Sounds pretty great to me-- lots of students I know really enjoy a thematic approach to learning.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:10 am: Edit

Chasgoose -- I'm glad you posted because I recall how gung-ho you were about the program. I just spoke for a moment with D who pulled another all-nighter (and probably wouldn't have slept anyways as her suitemates plied her with strong coffee and she's not used to caffeine) and she felt very good about the paper although she has to cut two pages in the next thirty minutes. I'm glad she's relatively happy with the final product -- she just needs to learn to get there in a more sane fashion (or lower her standards) or she'll be on a roller coaster all year. I agree that she needs to take charge of her schedule but I am going to talk to her and help her to brainstorm how to do that. OK -- time to get up the 5th grader with similar study habits and send him off to school to turn in his first paper...

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:26 am: Edit

Mimk - the daughter of a friend did this program a few years ago, and said it was the hardest thing she had ever done (like he**) while she was in it, but the best thing she ever did. She graduated from this esteemed Ivy as a philosophy major, I think.

Your daughter is doing the right thing going to the counseling center, kids with her work ethic are going to hit a wall at some point, and much of their future success and sanity depends on how they handle that. I'm sure she's not the first at Yale to have this problem. Good luck.

By Archermom (Archermom) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

Mimk6, Great to hear your D was happy with her paper! They are young and resilient...as we were once!!! It sounds like she will get into the groove soon.

By Marianne (Marianne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:27 pm: Edit

If she's at Yale, she should be visitng with her academic dean. Also, the writing tutor may not be enamoured of philosophy, but they are trained to help with papers and have the competence to understand freshman philosophy courses! Also, they've probably already read a million freshman philosophy papers by now.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:27 am: Edit

Just an update -- I did get voice mails tonight when I was away from the phone from the director as well as an e-mail that was encouraging. She says she is anxious to work with my daughter to help things become less overwhelming. She seemed quite appreciative that I alerted her to the problem. We will probably talk in the next day or two.

By Achat (Achat) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 08:43 am: Edit

Mimk6, you are a great mom. This is ideally what parents should do...your daughter will come out of this all right.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit

"Mimk6, you are a great mom."

Aw, thanks. I am still worried even though she got through that paper. The price was too high -- she stayed up another all nighter and her suitemates plied her with coffee -- she'd never had that much coffee before and it made her ill -- coffee upsets her stomach. Then she lost Friday by sleeping a wired sleep during the day and still being wired Friday night. That kind of schedule just puts her further behind on the reading. I received a couple of lovely e-mails from parents -- one whose son did the program last year and, although it was tough, he would do it again -- he gained a lot from it. But the parent said he worried about his son the entire first semester...

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 12:23 pm: Edit

Mimk6:

One piece of advice: I think parents should be EXTREMELY reluctant to get involved talking with college staff about their kid's academic hurdles. Be supportive to your daughter. Send her recommendation on the resources SHE can pursure on campus. But, I think you are setting yourself up for a lot of resentment if YOU are talking to the academic deans or advisors. It is generally considered to be a big "no-no". The most important part of college is kids learning how to manage things for themselves.

The Dean of my daughter's college put it to the parents this way: "I know this will be a hard period of adjustment for all of you, but there are no more parent-teacher conferences..."

The only exception I would personally make to the "hands-off" rule would be a case where I had reason to believe there were growing mental health concerns.

By Marianne (Marianne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit

I agree with Interesteddad. I think the days of contacting teachers with acadmic concerns ended sometime during high school. I think it's helpful for parents to encourage their students to take advantage of all the help offered on campus. At Yale, the academic dean (one per residential college) is a good place to start. I don't think parents should be involved unless it's something serious, a mental health issue, as intdad pointed out, a legal issue, problems with the bursar, etc.

By Archermom (Archermom) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Even in high school, there is a fine line for parents intervening on behalf of children. Each case is different and should be handled as such with much thought and discretion. Providing them with "strageties" is always a good start...and encouraging them find their way...some sooner than others. It is never easy for parents to sit back and wait...especially if the child is 2000 miles away!

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Parents at Yale received a letter shortly before school with contact information for deans and masters and a strongly worded letter to feel free to contact with any and all concerns relating to a child. I also know that Stanford has a staff person who serves as a liason just for parents. However, I did not write because I wanted a parent teacher conference. I wrote because I was concerned about my D's increasing state of unhappiness. I am a mental health professional and I well know that it is better to be proactive before there is a more serious problem. When I was a freshman in college, my roommate became increasingly depressed over a period of weeks and did not avail herself of resources. Another friend had the same situation and one night came to my room while I was out and wrote a note but threw it in the trash. My roommate mentioned it to me and I retrieved what was a suicide note. I made some calls and she ended up leaving school and recovering from a major depressive episode. Again, she did not avail herself of resources. I am not for a moment putting my daughter in the same situation but, to make a general point, if someone is slipping into depression they are often not in a place to get help -- their energy level drops, etc. and being proactive on their own behalf is not always something that happens. How much more in a situation where kids are on their own for the first time at a time when they are well known for not taking good care of themselves? Again, I am not speaking to my own kid's situation, but on general principles. However, I do think it's easy for an adjustment struggle or period of unhappiness to turn into something more and I was not willing to gamble on that front. I did speak at length with the program director today and I did not at all get the feeling I was the first parent to ever call or the last. It was not a parent teacher conference -- she does not know my D nor has she seen her work -- it was more of a conference on adjustment to college and a tough program in general.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Mimk6-- appreciate your POV as a mental health professional, but now that your daughter seems to be finding her way clear to a solution, you need to step back. Her roommates tried to help-- caffeine, the Director of the program knows there's an issue, your daughter seems to have recognized that her perfectionism may get in the way of this new style of learning, and other than losing a few nights sleep, your daughter doesn't seem to have lost her grip on reality.

So-- as parents of older kids are now tactfully trying to tell you-- back off. Telling her that it's OK to get a "C" sounds like support to you... what she may be hearing is "even my family thinks I'm going to be a loser here". Calling the Director feels like appropriate intervention to you-- to her it feels like, "oh gosh, how great I have superParent on my team to help me tough out every hard situation since I'm obviously incapable of figuring it out on my own."

Freshman year is going to be really hard on you (she'll be fine...) if you take on her battles as your own.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Mimk6, I think you're doing just fine. If the school encourages you to call, then you did the right thing. (Interesteddad, each school probably has a different philosophy, the dean at my son's school gives out his home phone # and encourages parents to call with problems) As I said in another thread it takes a little time to find the right balance of parental involvement. I'm sure your daughter would let you know if you are getting overinvolved. Some parents see college as the end of parental involvement and for some it is a longer process of letting go. Sometimes in their new independence, students don't always want to ask for help and sometimes if they do and don't get too far they may not have enough resourcefulness yet to figure out what else to do. Advocating for your daughter is a good thing. It will teach her to advocate for herself.

By Mlee (Mlee) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Mimk6 and Lizchup - what you report about the encouragement parents received to communicate with the schools about concerns fits in well with the discussion on the Harvard m/s 1995 thread. Mimk6, it sounds like you used an open door appropriately.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Mimk6; Sensing your distress, perhaps the posters were kind enough to forgive the one call to your daughter's program director--but you would be wise to take on board the general reaction of "uh-oh".

Did you ever consider that perhaps your daughter resorts to childish complaints in her communication to you--but otherwise is a typical freshman and NOT inches from a major depressive episode? I know my S sends well timed panic emails--when we go on vacation interestingly enough. And he exaggerates the panic. Maybe I've freaked out so many times that he gets a nice fuzzy feeling when I do it agian?? haha. Who knows, but I suggest you take the next call with a grain of salt--or a shot of Glenfiddich--and refrain from stepping into the actual scene.

By Justinmeche (Justinmeche) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:35 pm: Edit

My story: I enrolled in Cornell's engineering college in 2001 as a computer science major after achieving a 4.2 GPA in high school (salutatorian). After 3 semesters I switched to mechanical engineering but after one semester of that I had to leave the university. From day one I had a very hard time understanding the material. Calculus, physics, and my CS courses were very challenging. The workload was not too heavy but I had difficulty understanding the concepts. CS in itself proved not to be for me because it was impossible for me to grasp at after a certain point. Wanting to stay in engineering I switched to MechE since it was the most favorable of the rest of the majors. The mechanics part of physics was hard for me so I was treading on thin ice with MechE. Courses like statics and mechanics of materials were cryptic to me. I didn't know what it was but it was way too confusing. I nearly failed those courses. I left Cornell with a 2.0 (not good enough to affiliate with the MechE program) and transfered to small state school near my hometown. I was affiliated with the MechE program because the requirements were different from Cornell. Cornell's academics were hell for me and I was hoping that a change of environment and a clean slate (Cornell GPA did not transfer) would give me another chance.

After one year in the new MechE program I have a 3.5 GPA, got a good internship in summer 2004, and was literally handed a research project without seeking one. What made the difference? Believe it or not it was the different statics textbook. All of the well-written examples showed me all of the intuition required to see how forces affect objects. My intuition now is far beyond the level I had at Cornell, which was none. Once I gained that intuition and got really good at doing free body diagrams, everything else (mechanics of materials, dynamics, stress/strain analysis, etc.) was easy. Now it is hard for me to remember how confused I once was.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:37 am: Edit

Mim, good for you for using the resources that had been made available to you as a parent to make it clear to both the university and to your d that you expect her to have access to appropriate resources. It sounds as though you made a judgment that this was one of those exceptional times when you needed to intervene.

When we went to freshman parents' orientation at my d's residential college, the dean and the master both encouraged us to be in touch with them when necessary. Actually, they also asked us to encourage our children to keep their appointments with their academic advisors, since many of them tend to forget to do so. It has been quite a few years since I nagged my kids about an appointment! (Not that I haven't nagged them about plenty of other things.) Here was a case in which the admin were clearly encouraging us to be part of the process of helping our children learn to live on their own, which is not the same as tossing them out of the nest.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:57 am: Edit

Blossom: "So-- as parents of older kids are now tactfully trying to tell you-- back off."

Mim: I am also the parent of an older kid. This is not my first kid in college. I never took a step like that with my first kid, even when he was struggling academically. I do think I need to back off some but I also think I was right to first get involved.

Blossom: Telling her that it's OK to get a "C" sounds like support to you... what she may be hearing is "even my family thinks I'm going to be a loser here".

Mim: I don't think being average at an Ivy League your first semester makes you a loser although who knows what grades she will actually get. I think all kids should get a message that it's OK if they are not perfect as most kids do have a dip academically their first semester as they are adjusting to a new level of work.

Blossom: Calling the Director feels like appropriate intervention to you-- to her it feels like, "oh gosh, how great I have superParent on my team to help me tough out every hard situation since I'm obviously incapable of figuring it out on my own."

Mim: With all due respect, how do you know what it feels like to her? She knew I was considering doing it -- I ran it past her. Had she asked me not to, I would have respected that and she is quite capable of speaking her mind. And I think at that juncture she was probably quite appreciative that she had "superparent" on her team. Someday, I'll ask her.

I don't think the calls are manipulative, Cheers, however, I do think she needs to start going to resources there for help, etc. because it will be better for her and for me. I haven't sensed a general board reaction of "uh oh" -- I've sensed some of that but a lot of supportive posts and private e-mails that were very supportive. So I guess this was a judgement call and I made my best judgement, being the one who has actually known the student in question for 18 years. I'm a big believer that there are very few absolutes in parenting -- that there are few blanket rules. While I understand the case for backing off and am definitely taking it under advisement I also think that sometimes all we have is our "gut" -- our intuition. Obviously, I know my kid, I know our relationship, I know the message her school sent out, etc. I made my decision on all of that and more -- I will certainly keep in mind the advice I've gotten here as I move forward but I don't regret making contact.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 05:03 am: Edit

M; No suggestion of regret and, actually, no suggeston of manipulation. Manipulation would be a conscious effort and these are kids maturing at the Disney halfway house, right? Frankly, it would be more dangerous for a parent to try and manipulate a situation. Hence, the advice to try to refrain.....but still just a suggestion and not a judgement.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 08:20 am: Edit

Mim, sorry if I offended you since that was certainly not my intention. You posted in your original Q, "anyone been through this" and so I was posting, "yes I have, and learned the hard way that my kid's job was to learn how to be a college student, and my job was to learn how to back off after years of advocating for him, getting him to use available resources, make appointments with GC's and teachers when he needed extra help, etc.". I should not have presumed to understand what your daughter might be feeling-- I apologize.

However, I do know what my kid was feeling... since he told me long after the fact and we were both no longer emotional about it. When I told him it was OK to get a C (not at an ivy, but at MIT, a pretty rigorous place) I thought I was telling him it was OK to be in the middle of the pack... but he interpreted it to mean that we didn't think he could cut it there...and so forth to my lame posting to your Q.

So again, sorry to have offended you. When you ask a question looking for other people's experiences on a public message board, sometimes you actually get just that... other people's experiences. If mine does not apply to you than just ignore it... but yes, I've been there, it does get better, Yale would not have accepted her into DS if she couldn't do the work (I also had a Yalie so I know where you're coming from) and this too shall pass. Most kids arrive at college with a playbook of what has worked for them in the past. For many, many kids in rigorous programs or at tough schools or just in an unfamiliar place, it is a hard struggle to learn that the playbook that got you to college (and Val, or NM Finalist, or whatever academic distinctions you worked so hard to achieve) aren't going to cut it in the new environment... either because you are surrounded by kids who did the same, or because your compensating skills are nowhere near up to the task at hand.

However, she wasn't accepted at Yale because of her ability to digest information or whatever her learning style in HS was... she was accepted because they saw evidence that she could master the type of learning required to be successful at Yale... but probably not within the first three weeks of classes....

Sorry again if my post upset you.

By Mom2003 (Mom2003) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:17 pm: Edit

I have a middle schooler who would rather I never communicated with his teachers and finds all the things I need to do at home when PTA meetings are scheduled ;-) What kids want or don't want is less important than our judgment of what is right.

Mim, don't be upset. Everyone responds according to their own perception/experience and you take what you like, leave what you don't. I have a little trouble imagining circumstances where I would communicate with the college but I do defer to you on your judgement as a mental health professional and suspect that if I felt my child was heading toward depression, I would also not hesitate to ask for help. Hope your daughter feels better soon. Hugs!

By Marianne (Marianne) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

I think we can all agree that there are a range of issues about which kids can feel stressed: from anxiety about a paper that's due, to feelings of deep depression. Do the deans want phone calls from parents everytime a paper is due and the student doesn't think he or she can manage it? I doubt it. Do they want phone calls when parents think their child is deeply depressed? Absolutely. The trick is to find an appropriate middle ground: backing off from helping in some situations (while encouraging kids to use campus resources); getting involved when the situation begins to seem serious and campus resources have been exhausted.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Cheers and Blossom -- not upset having read this morning's posts and appreciate the apology. I felt (last night) that there was more emphasis on my calling re an academic issue than what my first post mentioned -- unhappiness, etc. Actually, I am very encouraged by what you wrote this morning. I have a lot of confidence in her academic abilities. I think there is a window of time when they leave everything they've known behind and their new life doesn't yet feel like a life and they are working harder than they have ever worked in their life (which leaves little time to actually process what they are feeling,) when kids can be quite vulnerable. One thing the director told me is that for some kids getting to college is like rolling off of a log and for others it is much more traumatic -- almost all of them are fine by the end of a semester but they don't all get there as easily. I do agree that linking to resources there is key because that will help create a sense of mastery and of connection to the place she's at. Also, it's not possible for me to "superparent" from this far away. Without seeing how your child is doing, you can't really get as accurate a guage. What I did not realize, that I am now realizing from e-mails and posts from parents who have been there, is that these high-demand schools take a toll on the parents -- I didn't consider that -- I didn't really realize how hard it would be. Last night I met a couple whose son went to Harvard 30 years ago. He left in Sept looking fabulous, he came home in December having lost 20 pounds, pale as a ghost and looking like life had beat him up. They cried and begged him not to go back and to transfer to UCLA. He did go back and eventually it got better. But when they talked about it last night I could tell it was an experience that really marked them. They did come out the other side but they've never forgotten the fear they felt when they saw him. I knew I would miss her -- but my fantasy was that she would be really happy, running around, too busy for me. I did not factor in another scenario and I did not factor in what it would feel like to worry from this far away. I really do appreciate all the advice and support coming from this board. I'll respond to the great e-mails in my box later today.

By Garland (Garland) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Overall, I think the most useful thing about this board is the story-telling. "I had such and such situation, too, and this is how it turned out." Or "mine was a little different, but this what happened and maybe it somewhat connects," etc. etc. I think hearing other people's stories is a tremendous learning experience. When posters come on telling their stories, and asking if anyone has a similar one, they're looking for those insights we get from others' stories. But I also think it's easy for all of us (myself included, for sure) to slide from "this is what worked for me" to "and that's why your behavior was a mistake." Again, a very fine line, but one I'm going to try to respect more stringently in the future.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit

M; Sounds like you are feeling better! I agree with the Dean that the experience can be totally different for each student--but would add that those who fall of a log may well end up in the river! Never say never. That's my mantra for my S--with 15,000 miles between us.

I suffered two major setbacks in architecture school and once went home at Christmas a near-pnuemonia wreck. My parents were appalled. They wanted to sue the professor and they definitely didn't want me to go to New York City the following semester. They were sure it would kill me. Honestly, they were weeping at the airport.

Who knows why MORE challenge was the perfect cure--but it was! My life would have been dull without it.

My parent's (over)reaction was a disappointment in the end. I did need them to nurse me to a state of semi-health--but then they lost faith. Their fear left a bitter taste.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:31 pm: Edit

It looks like Mimk's call to the Dean was very helpful. It helped the Dean get a sense of what her D was struggling with, and possibly of the inadequate advising and support for new students; it presumably will inspire the D to redouble her efforts to seek help and to learn to manage her time and her expectations a bit better and it reassured Mimk that her D's concerns would be addressed. Let us hope that no one drops the ball from here on out.

As for students falling off a log and into the river vs. students having a rough first semester, do you recall the exchanges about spending the first three weeks of classes going to parties and making friends? There must be a happy medium between pulling all-nighters and partying for three weeks! I hope that Mimk's D finds it.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 02:15 am: Edit

Chasgoose! Good to see your phosphors here. You are one of my all-time favorite students on the board. I sometimes have wondered how you and Gertrude Stein are doing at Yale together. Please stay in touch.

By Momrath (Momrath) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 03:59 am: Edit

Blossom wrote: Telling her that it's OK to get a "C" sounds like support to you... what she may be hearing is "even my family thinks I'm going to be a loser here".

This really resonated with me. My son had a rough first term (last year)academically. A perfect storm of demanding instructors, a class that was too advanced, wavering self confidence, massive disorganization, chronic procrastination -- led to a couple of dismal papers, which of course only exacerbated and prolonged the problem. I, the sympathetic mom, told him that C's were OK, the school he had chosen was notorious for grade deflation, it didn't matter etc, etc. I just hadn't realized until it was all over how driven he was, and how determined not to get C's, which in the end he didn't. He survived, he thrived, he learned how to budget his time, how to use the school's facilities (like the writing center), how to make course selections and to balance his courseload. Now well into his second year, the difference is NIGHT AND DAY.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 09:27 am: Edit

Just a note to Interested Dad -- that program wouldn't sound so bad to some kids. I think my D (a classics and English lit major) would love reading that stuff all year.

Mim -- Lots of good wishes your way for you and your D. I wanted to let you know that my sister was a student at Yale about 15 years ago (not in that program) and had gone to a top private HS in DC and done extremely well there, and even she struggled at Yale. In particular, I remember her calling my mother in tears when she (sister) got an F on her first French paper (had gotten a 5 on French AP exam in HS). My mother advised her to talk to the prof, make sure she knew what she had done wrong, ask to rewrite if possible. In the end, sister got a B in the class and graduated cum laude with double major in Economics and (you guessed it) French! Ended up going to Columbia Law School.

I pass this on only to let you know that freshmen have struggled often, it's nothing new, and usually make it through and do quite well. It is good your D is seeking help, of course, that's absolutely the right thing to do. Good luck and please keep us posted.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:11 am: Edit

Hearing all the "someone I know struggled" stories has really helped a lot. The first grade turned out a lot better than she expected which I hope gave her some perspective. With my D it doesn't much matter what I say about grades. Once in middle school I said "There's nothing wrong with a B" and she replied "Yes, there is -- it's not an A" so I don't know what made me bother to say anything regarding grades now. I think the weekend was somewhat restorative. I've had a few days to process the fact that, as my friends have pointed out, she's always been very balanced and grounded and that I probably have been panicking unnecessarily. But hearing all the stories of kids who struggled has really helped normalize a lot of this for me. The stories really do help. Thanks.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:21 am: Edit

Yay Mim's daughter!!!

Glad to hear she (and you) are doing better.