|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:19 pm: Edit|
Okay, so am I the only parent who has a son going up to the N.Y.C. Convention to protest something?I'll let you know how this turns out.
|By Bern700 (Bern700) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:10 pm: Edit|
All I know is that there is going to be a major bloodbath...
I've heard a few interviews with some of the protest organizers and they have not counted violence out. One was asked if they would use violence and she said that whatever it takes. It will probably escalate pretty quickly as the mayor bloomberg is being retarded and not doing anything to make it safe for protestors and those around. At least in boston they had a designated area for protesting that was surrounded and barracaded so that there would be no violence. Plus the nature of radical liberals tends to be more violent.
I'd tell your son to be careful.
|By Bern700 (Bern700) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit|
btw i have nothing against protesting but I really hope that it is done tastefully and safely. As it was during the DNC.
|By Achat (Achat) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:34 pm: Edit|
My work is close to Central park. Today a protester tried to pin something on some building and a policeman gave chase. The policeman broke his leg and is in the hospital. At least that's what coworkers are telling me. I saw a huge crowd from the 29th floor where I work.
|By Bern700 (Bern700) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit|
oh so the mayhem is beginning early...
|By Achat (Achat) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit|
It appears normal, now though. I take a mid-afternoon walk thru central park every day if I can and all the tourists are there today etc. I did not go very far though, only upto the skating rink.
|By Mini (Mini) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:48 pm: Edit|
Put in a good protest for me. (I don't particularly care about what - I just like to see the exercise of my democratic freedoms of speech and assembly, even if only by proxy....)
|By Vancat (Vancat) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:54 pm: Edit|
Thanks but No thanks, I will be busy cheering the RNC next week.
|By Mini (Mini) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit|
Not contradictory. I wouldn't mind if folks were out protesting abortion or the loss of their Second Amendment "rights". I'm not picky, except that I want to see folks doing their free exercise in public places.
|By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit|
S thought the idea of taking a $20 gang run bus from Boston to NYC was AWESOME so he may go.
|By Bern700 (Bern700) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 05:05 pm: Edit|
yey for asian mob run chinatown buses!!!!!!
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit|
I was facinated with that Chinatown bus thread!Learn something new every day!
Son on occasion has filled buses for PEACEFUL protests. I saw him clear as day on FOX at the Prochoice March.( I DO NOT SUPPORT PRO CHOICE)When I told him he said yes he did walk past a reporter and wasn't it incredible I saw him as there was a huge crowd both pro and against in attendance.
At any rate, I know this is off topic but chances are if your college student is in Phila., Boston, or N.Y.C. there will be opportunities for him/her to attend. Sometimes I think son does this for the social aspect.I hope everything is okay, and know son will not get into trouble personally. I hear a permit for 60,000 protestors in Central Park was refused.
PLEASE CLUE ME IN IF YOU ARE THERE AND SEE ANYTHING.Thank you Achat and Bern.Bloodbath?
|By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 05:51 pm: Edit|
Working in DC blocks from the White House and Capitol, I've seen many, many peaceful protests that have been interrupted by overzealous police action (that's the kindest way of saying it). In the World Bank annual meeting protests last year, protesters had convened in a park that is visible from my building, and were surrounded by cops on horses who refused to let anyone out and arrested them all. Including some commuters who happened to be walking thru the park to get from the Metro to work.
The most disturbing protest I saw was at the Israeli embassy in N.W. DC a few years ago. I was dropping my D off somewhere nearby and couldn't figure out why the streets were blocked off (and traffic was at a standstill) -- then we saw a line of marchers and so D got out of the car to walk the couple of blocks to where she was going. Turns out they were Neo-Nazis protesting at the embassy!! scary.
|By Bern700 (Bern700) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit|
see the thing about this protests though is that the organizers have never said that it is going to be peaceful. That's whats scary...They have said they will do anything it takes including violence and with the lack of organization of Bloomberg's part I see bad things coming.
|By Toblin (Toblin) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit|
There will be people trying to turn the crowd into an unruly mob, for their own purposes. The NYPD doesn’t tolerate mobs very well, never has. I think the “problem” element is counting on just that. I’d be VERY careful.
|By Achat (Achat) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:36 am: Edit|
Yesterday's incident near the Plaza hotel (overlooking the Southern end of Central Park) was funny (depending on your viewpoint). The protesters put up a sign:
Over a building. Then the police gave them chase and broke his leg, poor guy. It was in the local news. I didn't know about the poster.
|By Achat (Achat) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:37 am: Edit|
BHG, sure, I'll cue you in.
|By Achat (Achat) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:39 am: Edit|
Rhonda, that must have been extremely scary. I don't know what i would have done. probably left my car there and run to see if my son was ok.
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 09:16 am: Edit|
As far as putting up a banner on a building, that wasn't such a bad thing but of course the management of the building is entitled to take it down and have anyone arrested for trespassing.I think groups may protest if they have a permit.Not having a permit means arrest. Permits allow the police to plan, man, and decide upon an appropriate area and number.Many, many groups will be using the Convention as a threatre for their cause.There are groups from poor churches in Philly going I know.
What I saw in Phila. 4 yrs ago was some militants who were bent on trouble.But of course there are many, many, peaceful protesters.I did not like the area I saw in Boston for the protesters- a barbed wire cage or consentration camp atmosphere, it appeared and no to speak media coverage.But the police considering t-rism, etc. are very uptight.
|By Idler (Idler) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit|
When the Republican convention was in Philly 4 years ago, my daughter, then a hs senior, was involved with a group making large puppets to march through the streets as part of the protest. Her group was making a puppet for everyone put to death in Texas during the Bush administration.There were many other such projects going on. This was taking place in a loaned warehouse in West Philly, not far from Penn. Among the protesters in the warehouse, it turned out, were a number of undercover police. On the day before the Convention began, the warehouse was raided on a pretext of Fire code violations, all puppets were confiscated and trashed, and arrests were made when the outraged protesters tried to resist, including spirited daughter, who spent a depressing 36hrs in jail, charged with disorderly conduct or something. There was of course a lot of talk about lawsuits, Constitutional rights, etc, but it never came to anything, charges against protesters ultimately dismissed, and the shocking (I thought) behavior of the city was pretty much unchallenged.
|By Dadx (Dadx) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit|
I agree with Toblin. The police have their hands full with the unenviable responsibility of attempting to protect the city from terrorist attacks, which some think may be more likely during a major political event.
If I were a policeman, its possible my patience could wear quite thin with unnecessary silliness.
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit|
Yeah Idler! I know all about this too! My son must know your daughter!
I feel your pain here. Son (23)was not arrested and was not involved with that particular aspect but I had heard some kids were left to 'rot' in jail a LONG time or given huge fines . I knew I would find someone else involved with this on C.C. They are a bright group, not rif raf.
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:36 am: Edit|
Silliness rather than the alternative.
Peace, love, a kinder nicer U.S.A.
|By Idler (Idler) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit|
Free speech and the right to peaceful protest are not silly.
Backhandgrip: glad to hear your son is still at it. My daughter was sadly disillusioned by the experience. My recollection, colored no doubt by my secondhand interest, was that the police overreacted in Phila, in the same kind of way that Rhonda describes, above, in DC. Did you see it that way?
|By Idler (Idler) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:30 pm: Edit|
Also, Dadx, I think the silly part was the use of undercover police, and their trashing of the warehouse.
|By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:41 pm: Edit|
My favorite protest so far was when a group in the garment district wanted to convey to Bush that he should drop the developing countries' debt. They dropped their pants. This is New York, said Bloomberg. Of course these things happen!
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit|
Idler; I felt the police overreacted to the the warehouse parade puppets insident . It was all harmless. I think the police felt there was something other than puppets in the warehouse but they should have just checked it an go on their way.Almost like they did not want the things to be seen by the cameras! It was all harmless and many very nice and bright kids were involved. How is your daughter now?Is she still in town? Son is in Richmond, VA. but has plans to take a job in Ohio.
|By Alwaysamom (Alwaysamom) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:12 am: Edit|
Just returned from a glorious week in the city returning my D to NYU. The city was bustling with tourists, as usual and we saw many, many anti-Bush buttons and bumper stickers. We also saw the banner which was mentioned earlier hanging from the Plaza. The protest originally planned for Central Park has now shifted venues to Union Square for tomorrow. This will be extremely problematic for many NYU freshmen who will be moving into their dorms on the square tomorrow. They are expecting 250,000 protesters so the stress of move-in day will be multiplied many times for those unfortunate families. Thankfully, my D had to be there early to prep for Welcome Week and we escaped the city prior to the Republican hordes descending.
|By Sonar (Sonar) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 06:54 pm: Edit|
I have a friend who went ... she's a junior right now; so, no, your children are not alone.
|By Songman (Songman) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 10:53 pm: Edit|
In Boston they made it almost impossible for anyone to protest the Democratic convention. Of course this gave the apperance that basically very few people disagree with democrats.So apparently it will be easier to protest the republican convention? If so I am sure the press will spin it against the republicans. And so the game goes on....this is why I am sick of politics.....
|By Idler (Idler) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 09:56 am: Edit|
Backhand: she's a junior at Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore. She remains a free spirit, but political activism seems to be in her past, now. Frankly a relief to her parents.
|By Achat (Achat) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:08 am: Edit|
Well, BHG, did your son protest yesterday or is he doing any of that today? Things seem to be normal today. I came in early (as I usually do) and there was no problem except a traffic accident near the Secaucus train station on the turnpike. The trains are late too, I don't know why. Everything else looks fine. People were not stopped or anything when they got out of Penn Station on their way to work.
I hope I am not speaking too quickly, but NYC police did an admirable job yesterday arresting only trouble makers. Some guy put fire to a papier mache dragon and was arrested etc..of course I wasn't there to see it. Only what I saw in a local paper.
|By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:23 am: Edit|
Achat -- I heard there were about 100 arrests, not much for a crowd reported at 200K.
|By Achat (Achat) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit|
Yup. So far, I am impressed with the police department. Touch wood. And the papier mache fire starter was arrested because some policemen got 3rd degree burns. Ouch.
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:48 am: Edit|
Yes, the police did a very good job. I would think there will be much more trouble at the train stations with the commuters than with the protesters! Sounds like commuters are having a difficult time with all the train precautions and screenings.
Son is coming here 31st and will hear about it then.Funny, few months ago S was all hot to move to Baltimore, so maybe he is in the same friend set as your D, Ildler.
|By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:53 am: Edit|
Did I hear correctly that some subway stations are actually going to be closed? That seems like a nightmare scenario for commuters! I know that when we have large protest events in DC, the subway is a Godsend!
|By Alwaysamom (Alwaysamom) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit|
Rhonda, I asked last week when we were in the city about subway stations being closed and was told that no, none would be closed. Even Penn Station which is directly under MSG remains open. Some access points to the station may be closed off in order for security to conduct their checks but I think that's it.
My D participated in the march yesterday with a large contingent of students from NYU and other colleges. She reports that the march was amazingly peaceful and respectful. The father of a friend of hers who works for the NYPD says that the police estimates put the crowd size at approximately 400,000, despite the press reporting it to be smaller than that. What impressed her the most was the sheer diversity of the groups who were marching to protest the current administration. All ages, all colors, all ethnicities, from every imaginable profession and walk of life. Listening to her talk about it last night made me wish I'd been there.
|By Achat (Achat) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:27 am: Edit|
I didn't hear that. Subways are running right now. I think commuter trains from the suburbs are awfully slow. From someone who is just in from a 3-hour commute from Princeton, the trains were stopped at Newark, everyone had to get out, it was searched and they got back in and came to Penn.
Hope the subways are running.
|By Achat (Achat) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit|
Sorry, I meant 'I didn't hear that the subways were closed'.
400,000 is impressive.
|By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit|
I must have heard bad info about the subways...
Crowd estimates are often hotly debated (400K is great, and (IMO anyway) hopefully bodes well for November!). The National Park Service used to give official estimates for protests and other large gatherings in DC but stopped doing so some years back b/c of controversy over their estimates. I may be remembering wrong, but I think it was the Million Man March, where organizers claimed they had at least a million attendees but the Park Service was giving a lower estimate. Anyway, they no longer give crowd estimates here, and you'll usually hear one number from the DC police and another from the event organizers!
|By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:49 am: Edit|
"welcome to NY. We have no oil and no fake WMD caches. Missed a turn?"
Dean is going to be in Portland today!
ya know I have been driving from Seattle to Bellevue to Portland and I have seen one Bush sticker. Granted I realize the northwest is much more "awake" than some parts of the country, but when the major Republican sticker that I have seen is "Republicans for Voldemort" is the middle of the country going to be that much different?
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 12:02 pm: Edit|
I saw a W'04 sticker yesterday.
Folks, don't forget to have your kids turning 18 registered to vote!
|By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 12:05 pm: Edit|
Emeraldkity -- same here, a lot of Kerry/Edwards stickers and even more anti-Bush ones. but I did see a b-c 04 sticker this morning on a car in a small parking lot I walk thru on the way to the metro!
But we're in somewhat of a liberal enclave -- if I cross the border into Virginia, i think it's very different.
|By Eadad (Eadad) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:43 pm: Edit|
Driving from Dallas to Chapel Hill two weeks ago saw nothing but W or W04 stickers anywhere in AR,TN or NC for that matter until we got to Chapel Hill. Was beginning to wonder if there were any democrats left in the south.
|By Achat (Achat) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit|
But the RNC is going very peacefully here. Thank God. I saw the 'Billionaires for Bush' protesters near our office, impeccably dressed and passing some 'invitations to a Ball'.
|By Robyrm (Robyrm) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit|
There was not a single Bush sticker that I saw in all of Grinnell, Iowa! Since we are nominal "residents" of Texas, though overseas, our votes are toss aways, but now our son's will count!
|By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:15 am: Edit|
Just got back from protests...this is my 2nd day....and I'll be going back on Thursday. I go in not really to protest, but to take pictures as I am a photographer who really enjoys photojournalism.
You see some crazy things going down! Many of the protesters (not to make a generalization), don't have much money, so I got a great shot of two girls picking through the garbage for food. And then minutes later they are speaking incredibly eloquently about Bush's war crimes! I think its just so amazing to be surrounded by something like that, I am really learning alot.
I also have my own interests in the events, for example today I went to the School of the Americas demonstration. Ever since I learned about this "school" I have been working against it, so today was a great day to finally find other people who support the effort.
Overall - I'd say its pretty dangerous actually. Alot of arrests where I was in Bryant Park today, and alot of threats by the police by MSG. Just be careful and don't "cross the line" and you should be OK.
|By Achat (Achat) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:08 am: Edit|
Ilcapo, I am impressed!
(hope you are not still hyper-ventillating about your essay!).
|By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:52 am: Edit|
Ugh, those Bush girls. The Kerry and Edwards daughters seem to me to have been far more appropriate and eloquent spokespeople for good old "family values." 'Nuff said or this will turn into a rant.
|By Dadx (Dadx) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:54 am: Edit|
Finally we get positive comments about the children of rich people. Of course it only applies to the liberals.
Tripe springs eternal.
|By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:42 pm: Edit|
Aparent: "Ugh, those Bush girls. The Kerry and Edwards daughters seem to me to have been far more appropriate and eloquent spokespeople for good old "family values."
I enjoyed very much listening to the Kerry/Edwards/Heinz young people speak at the Democratic convention. I thought each speaker was articulate and engaging. I am a Republican, but I appreciate (and am not the least bit threatened by) different views that are expressed by intelligent folks. I was impressed by Ms. Heinz-Kerry's inteligence, even though philisophically we may differ.
I equally enjoyed hearing the Bush daughters speak last evening. I would never make a critical remark, such as the one quoted above, about any of these young people. I think such a comment is gratuitous and mean-spirited.
|By Mini (Mini) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:46 pm: Edit|
Ilcapo -- thank you, thank you for continuing to protest against the torture school in Georgia. To have both Presidential candidates continuing to support its continued existence is a blight on our country, and evidence that somehow, someday, we've just got to get beyond the two Skull and Bones political parties.
|By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit|
Sorry, but I would have been embarrassed if my kids had spoken up like that in public. Joking about one's arrest record? Hardly appropriate for the offspring of the chief executive. Oh, sorry, I think they cheerfully called it being "young and irresponsible." I have known too many young people killed in alcohol-related accidents to find this at all funny.
Laura Bush was, however, very impressive.
|By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 03:08 pm: Edit|
Yea the School of Americas certainly is a torturous thing to have as a part of our government system. What is even more pathetic, and what kind of made me ashamed to be protesting at the RNC, is that BOTH candidates are in support of it!
Achat - in the midst of it all, I forgot about my essay...but as soon as I got home I was tortured again!
Gotta go develop my pics...
If you go to yahoo and search for bryant park, then click news, you can see pics of the protest that I was at (the one that got a little out of control)
|By Achat (Achat) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit|
Ilcapo, you can use the demonstrations as an essay topic!
Anyway, you are right, yesterday was a day of unrest. A lot of people got arrested (more than 1000) including people who were pushed into traffic because of the crowd..and were arrested because police told them not to get into traffic.
|By Bookworm (Bookworm) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:19 pm: Edit|
I was told that Kerry's dtr. appeared in Playboy, because she was wearing a see-thru blouse. ALL the kids could use some training on dress and speech-giving
|By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:39 pm: Edit|
We're not voting for the children of either candidate. Frankly, I didn't think ANY of them should have spoken at either convention. It was contrived and inappropriate. I also think that having actors and performers make speeches and endorsements is stupid. I like what Alice Cooper recently said: "Anyone who votes for someone because a rock and roll star tells them to is a moron."
|By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit|
Achat, interesting. Here in San Diego our local news reported that many arrests were made because demonstrators were attempting to stop Republican delegates from getting to Madison Square Garden to cast their votes. I have no problem with protesters exercising their free speech but trying to stop the free democratic rights of others is despicable in my opinion.
|By Alwaysamom (Alwaysamom) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit|
Bookworm, it wasn't in Playboy and it wasn't a blouse. Alexandra Kerry wore a sheer dress at an event at the Cannes Film Festival, which when illuminated with those bright lights was pretty much see-through. And she's hardly a 'kid'. She's a 30 year old film-maker. Somehow, I think this country has far more important concerns than what ANY of the candidates or their family members are wearing.
|By Achat (Achat) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:50 pm: Edit|
Carolyn, I read that in a local paper that is distributed free. I do think stopping people from going inside the Madison Square Garden to vote is bad.
|By Alwaysamom (Alwaysamom) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit|
I agree that delegates shouldn't be impeded but the report I saw (a fairly long one on CNN about the civil disobedience yesterday) said that only a dozen people were arrested for lying down in front of two buses of delegates. They didn't exactly prevent them from entering MSG. They got off the bus and walked in.
|By Caseyatthebat (Caseyatthebat) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit|
I really don't see how one connects the dots between a few incidents of underage drinking from several years ago, albeit unfortunate but hardly unique to the then 19 year old Bush girls, and "young people killed in alcohol-related accidents." There was no suggestion of drinking and driving, nor was there any suggestion of dangerous binge-drinking, both of which may indeed lead to tragic consequences.
|By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:32 pm: Edit|
The delegates are quite honestly just as annoying as the protesters...
The Texas delegates held up huge signs in their bus windows saying "Don't Mess With Texas" and repeatedly tried to provoke the protesters......but it never reached the news
|By Mini (Mini) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit|
Oh, for Bush's daughters, if they believe in daddy's war so much, you would think they would at least enlist. I mean, after all, they ARE unemployed.
|By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:27 pm: Edit|
Hi Folks, well son is still not here. He must still be in N.Y.C. I was concerned by all the flooding in Richmond VA but I don't think he is there either.Will let you know what he was protesting whenever he pops in, may be the weekend.(Has ended lease in Richmond and is staying here a few weeks before his job in Ohio starts.)Am really curious how S was involved- like carrying one of those coffins, or like atlas, that huge globe.He is not a troublemaker. I think it's all TERRIBLE- the Republicans are entitled to their convention- silly hats and all!
Achat: I really liked your story about college. Wow.What else is happening in N.Y.C.?Thanks Icapo too.Sign..........
|By Achat (Achat) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:36 pm: Edit|
BHG, Ilcapo would be able to tell more. I only observe what goes on in a few blocks midtown just south of central park (but nowhere near MSG). Anyway, will keep you posted if I see anything.
|By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:42 pm: Edit|
I'll be back in tomorrow...with a good update for you..
Alot of the protests are incredibly harmless, and those tend to get the most publicity and are the most fun to take part in and photograph.
I.E. Billionaires for Bush, where everyone meets up sipping martinis, wearing white gloves and pearls...kind of funny seeing as thats how the people ACTUALLY dress at Trinity hahhah
you can check out www.counterconvention.org for a list of activities day by day
|By Ilcapo (Ilcapo) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:04 am: Edit|
Just an update for ya.....
Protests today in Union Square were awesome, very peaceful, good "hippie" vibe.
MSG, however, was nuts.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:05 am: Edit|
What a *great* convention. Loved it. BTW, Fox News this morning did a report on the kind of creative protesting described by Ilcapo. Their conclusion was, those that chose to do something amusing and creative actually got some attention, and they had some pretty entertaining examples. Those that chose the baser path of spitting, cursing, etc., didn't help their cause. Looking forward to 4 more Bush years.
|By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:41 am: Edit|
even the Republicians know!
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:46 am: Edit|
|By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:01 am: Edit|
>>> I was told that Kerry's dtr. appeared in Playboy, because she was wearing a see-thru blouse. ALL the kids could use some training on dress and speech-giving>>>
>>>Somehow, I think this country has far more important concerns than what ANY of the candidates or their family members are wearing.>>>
What about how they act? This Texan still can't forget freshman Jenna drinking it up at an Austin restaurant before she was hauled in on underage drinking. Like people in Austin, TX, didn't know who she was! And the current night club photos of the twins dirty-dancing in New York night clubs are fodder for everyone. Granted, they didn't ask to be the president's daughters. No kid does. But, there are certain things in life that we have no control over, and it is how we react that counts. There have been other first children thrown into the limelight that have managed to avoid unfavorable press. The choice is there. Bad little politically connected rich kids, or mature responsible young people who recognize the benefits of being connected as they are.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit|
Hmm, not sure what your point is...the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I guess? Is that what you're getting at? Of course, no one's voting for the daughters, Kerry or Bush. I would agree that the Bush daughters were the low point of the convention speakers. However, it's interesting to note that only Reagan's adopted son Michael turned out to have any kind of sense, and was a true credit to his parents. Genetics aren't everything.
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:38 pm: Edit|
I still think if they are really supportive of Daddy, and really believe in what he is doing, they have an obligation to enlist. What's stopping them?
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:52 pm: Edit|
Frankly, I wouldn't want to rely on the Bush twins for national defense any more than the Olsen twins. Still feel very fortunate their father's running the war on terrorism, though. But thanks for the perspective from Michael Moore Land.
|By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:01 pm: Edit|
Driver, my point was that the decision is theirs - act responsibly or not. Often they don't. Also, I know from your other posts that you are a passionate conservative, and can see that Michael Reagan's idealogies would make him your favorite. I just read the article written by Ron, Jr. in Esquire and found it quite thoughtful and intelligent - although, he doesn't see some of the major things his dad pulled, like Iran-Contra. And, from what I understand, Ron's point of view was Nancy's on stem cell research.
I disagree with your statement that, "Of course, no one's voting for the daughters, Kerry or Bush." As the mother of a son who is draft age, and with the talk of the draft rearing it's ugly head again, I think about these things. You already have young Americans returning to the U.S. in body bags and wheel chairs, and I think it's inappropriate for the children of the Commander in Chief to run around, breaking drinking laws and haveing their pictures taken dirty dancing in night clubs, and pretty much coming off as unaffected by the whole thing. Perhaps, if they want to help Daddy's campaign, they should volunteer at Walter Reed helping the recent amputees and burn victims to their rehab.
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:05 pm: Edit|
How could the Pres show more pride in our fighting men and women than to convince his daughters to join them? Are they too good for it? Or is that they don't believe in the war on terrorism?
It's not like they are doing something else vital to national security.
|By Farawayplaces (Farawayplaces) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:16 pm: Edit|
Along and Mini: Amen!
I just shake my head at all the posturing about the great, just Iraq war--from people who do not have sons in harm's way! "Old men plan wars and young men fight them." In this case the rich and well-connected Republicans plan the wars and the poor--for whom the military is a way up--fight them.
We have have Iraq returnees in our rural community. The war is real here, not posturing on a message board. I overheard relatives discussing a poor boy who doesn't want to leave the house. And the family member says they have no idea how to seek help. The kid was basically asked a couple of questions about PTSD just as he was leaving for home--and then forgotten. Shame on Bush.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:35 pm: Edit|
I personally think the Bush twins are dingbats, and contrary to popular opinion, the voluntary US military has standards, and I'm not sure they'd cut it. I was embarassed as a Republican and a parent to see their goofy performance. However, I think it's silly to try to use them to paint their parents in a bad light. More than a few of us were wild and crazy in our youthful state. And Mini's statements remain just provocative Mooreisms.
As for "the draft": My husband just had this converstation with our son, as we are Quakers (at least I and my children are), and he is approaching the age at which young men are required to register, and our local Meeting is sending him draft avoidance strategies. My husband told him that if he was truly a pacifist, he should start attending Meeting more regularly, and register as a CO. If not, he told him that he should rest easy that if a draft truly became necessary, it would be because there was a real threat and he would want to enlist anyway. I agree. And, my husband said, it would be a choice between risking your life fighting with a gun in your hand, or risking your life going to work on the train, a bus, or showing up at a high rise office building some clear September morning. We are at war. The single best line from the Republican convention was John McCain's--"The choice is not between war and peace--it is between war and something worse."
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:38 pm: Edit|
Mooreism or not, it's true. There are two unemployed daughters and a war (or something worse) going on, and they are "missing in action".
Now, if I wanted to really make a "Mooreism", I'd suggest they at least enlist in the Air National Guard.
(a fellow Quaker)
|By Achat (Achat) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:42 pm: Edit|
On my son's birthday last week, he registered with the selective service at their website. I really really feel for all the mothers who had to send their kids to Iraq. Here we were talking about sending our kids to college and there they are sending their kids to harm's way. If a draft really does happen (people on both sides say it is unlikely but who knows) I don't know what I or my family would do. Probably what all the mothers of soldiers are doing, though, would be my guess.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:46 pm: Edit|
Some top US military man once said that the chief purpose of the military was to "kill people and break things." I happen to think that's true, and that boys are far better suited to that than girls. My daughter is a math and foreign language whiz, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see her recruited by the CIA, Homeland Security, or some other such agency. I don't see that in the future for the Bush girls...and I don't think most females are equipped to be combat soldiers. Whatever. Nice new Mooreism, BTW, Mini.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:34 pm: Edit|
One example of what the Bush twins can't do. What a great story, and what a tribute to our superb military.
|By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:47 pm: Edit|
Driver, your last posts are so sexist and messed up, I don't know where to begin. Boys are better suited to kill and die.....Use your religion to dodge the draft if you want to - or fight if you want to......Girls aren't suited for combat.....No more slamming Kerry for waffling!
My son deplores war, but would never use his religion to his advantage to dodge the draft if he did not believe in its teachings. CO status was designed for true believers. We are Catholic, and taking a life is a sin. I can't see my alter boy son being happy at "killing and breaking thing", and I wonder how many soldiers in Iraq are asking for absolutiion as we speak.
You can slam Michael Moore and anybody else with political convictions that are to the left of yours. You can call any idea a Mooreism. Frankly, after this it's a compliment.
|By Marite (Marite) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:57 pm: Edit|
>> If not, he told him that he should rest easy that if a draft truly became necessary, it would be because there was a real threat and he would want to enlist anyway. I agree.>>
Did we not go to war because GWB detected a real threat and could not wait for UN inspectors to finish their inspections into WMD? Did we not go to war because Saddam was supposed to be in cahoots with Al Qaeda? Was this not a real enough threat?
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:06 pm: Edit|
Since you don't know where to begin, I'll help you.
1. Didn't say boys were "better suited to kill and die." Just said that boys are better at the kind of in-your-face mayhem required by combat. You may disagree, but I'd rather have my son with me changing a flat tire in a bad neighborhood than my daughter. But don't make cheesey attempts to distort what I said.
2. No one in our home said to my son that he should "use your religion to dodge the draft if you want to"-- how dare you imply that? It was a serious discussion we had , in a household that supports our president and believes that Islamic terrorists are a threat to other religious groups. And that presents a real conundrum for Quakers. There was a similar conundrum during the American Revolution that led to the ouster of such Quaker patriots as Betsy Ross.
3. I think Michael Moore is a propogandist of the worst sort. If you disagree with me, fine. How about those "minutemen" (Moores' word for terrorists) in Chechenya today? I have no patience for this kind of hogwash anymore, given what we are facing. Babykillers and murderers do exist, it just so happens that they are more real today than they are in John Kerry's fantasies.
|By Marite (Marite) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:26 pm: Edit|
Do John Kerry's "fantasies" include My Lai? Or the little girl fleeing a napalm attack naked? How soon we forget...
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:36 pm: Edit|
No, Marite, we don't forget. My Lai happened. And Calley was dealt with (not harshly enough), and is considered a pariah by vets (most of whom think he should have been jailed for life). The little girl accidentally napalmed by the South Vietnanese Air Force happened. But it wasn't the norm. And you shouldn't join Kerry, shamefully, in implying that it was the norm. That's the whole freaking point, and you people WILL NOT GET IT. A lot of people served honorably in Vietnam, whether or not the cause was right, or the strategy properly executed. And the terrorists want to kill us. That's the most important reason to vote for Bush. Because he wants to kill them first.
|By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit|
I didn't really listen to either convention much but I did listen to Robert Reich and I really enjoy Arundahti Roys opinion on America and the world, so you know what side of the fence I am on.
I don't really like Moore too much, but I have come to respect his efforts as a patroit to inspire those who may feel so disenfranchised that they don't vote to get involved.
I just returned this afternoon for a special training for pollworkers as to the changes since Washington has gone from allowing independent voters to a Montana style primary. No longer will we be able to say vote for a democratic governor and a republician senator. We are told "no cell phones- no newspapers-no political discussion" in the voting area, as even a newspaper may apparently influence voters. However "personal" reading material is allowed, I suppose "Dude, Where's my Country/" falls under personal reading material?
|By Marite (Marite) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit|
It was not the norm but it was far more common than people are willing to admit. The problem about the My Lai trials is not that Calley got off lightly, but that not more people were tried.
Please read Morgantruce's comments. He's not the only person I've met or read about who has details of atrocities. Kerry was not the first to bring them to light. But he used his own war service to testify about what he'd seen. Were you in Vietnam?
As for the terrorists who want to kill us, is that not threat enough for you to encourage your son to join instead of expecting the poor of this country to go off to Iraq? And if the threat is not strong enough for him to join, then what are we doing over there?
The fact is that struggle to reduce terrorism has been dealt a blow by the invasion and occupation (yes, even Republicans use the term) of Iraq. We have become more rather than less vulnerable after alienating the countries who should have been enlisted to help us contain terrorism. Even the Iraqi Olympic soccer team includes players who would prefer to fight against us.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit|
Since you are making the phony Kerry-like charge that American-committed atrocities in Vietnam--and by inference, elsewhere-- are "far more common than people are willing to admit," how about some documentation? I think you are just another lefty, full of crap. I was not in Vietnam, being a female who turned 18 in 1973. Where were you? No idea who Morgantruce is. I'm not doubting him, mind you, but if you could re-post his statements about the atrocities he committed, that would really help.
I have to say, I was stunned to find that the Iraqi Olympic teams preferred being tortured by Uday for their failings to being lauded by Bush in a campaign commercial. I'm sure you have a great explanation that has nothing to do with the fact that the so-called paper of record really, really wants Bush to lose this election. But he won't. Sorry.
|By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:34 pm: Edit|
>>> That's the most important reason to vote for Bush. Because he wants to kill them first.>>>
Someone finally gave us a reason. Just don't send your son or daughter to do the dying, huh? Please don't send mine! Nothing cheesy was ever intended on my part. I just read what was written.
Emeraldkity, bless you for working the polls. It took me a couple of quick reads to get that you used to be able to vote a mixed primary as an independent. In Texas, you can't vote a mixed, but you can choose which party as you walk into the polling place as you aren't required to register with any party. Interesting.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit|
I have to add, in view of the second part of your post above, that I told my son that he should expect to serve in the military some time in the next few years, and that it would be to protect his homeland. I don't know what they'll want of him, but this problem we have is for real. And you guys are so far out of the loop that you can't even see it anymore.
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit|
If you were stunned by what the Iraqi Olympic team members had to say, perhaps it would do you well (perhaps it would do us ALL well) to better understand and appreciate (not necessarily agree with, just understand and appreciate) what they had to say. As you suggest quite rightly, something is simply stunning when a group of athletes, who might have been subject to torture by the previous government, publicly makes it clear that if they weren't at the Olympics, they'd be fighting and attempting to kill (or be killed by) their liberators.
If I were you, that would be something about which I'd be very interested indeed. If I were ME (I am!), I'd be very interested as well.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit|
You make the point so brilliantly. Nothing was wrong in Iraq before the invasion, it's really just another screw-up by the darned imperialist Bushies. Thanks for clearing that up. If I were you, I would find out what's so much better than being confined in a pen with your knees around your head than competing like most normal athletes, but what the hell do I know.
|By Marite (Marite) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:49 pm: Edit|
Morgantruce is a Vietnam vet as well as a long time poster on CC. Here is the full text of his post on College Confidential Cafe of August 21, partly in response to those who scoffed at GWB's own war service, hence some of the points he makes. The vet he mentions at the end is not Kerry:
>>Here are some FACTS that I can attest to----because they are from my OWN experience. Some of them favor Bush, some favor Kerry---it simply does not matter!
I joined the New Jersey Air National Guard in 1965. At that time we were told that it would be highly unlikely that our unit would NOT get called up for Vietnam----because the unit I was joining had been called up for every minor international skirmish since it was formed.
Joining a Guard unit was NOT a good way to avoid being sent into harm's way---not for me---and not for George W. Bush either. It still isn't!
In 1968 my Guard unit was activated and I---along with THOUSANDS of other guardsmen and reservists from all across the country were sent to Vietnam for a one-year tour. Few of us were thrilled; none of us were surprised.
I spent a year----well, 11 months, 10 days----on an Air Force base in Vietnam. I was NOT a grunt---I was a mechanic. I was not in enormous danger every day---but I did get shot at three different times, and I did not like that one bit. I was lucky.
I was NOT in a forward exposed position where one would expect to see all the horrors of war--- and yet I saw some horrible things!
Young American Army troops would come on our base to use the Base Exchange store. On several occasions I SAW some of them with leather strings of ears, which they proudly carried, strung from their web belts. In traveling around several cities in Vietnam, I saw the same type of "souvenir" collecting---from several different Army units. I did spend some time around several Marine units---and did NOT see that sort of activity among them.
I SAW captured Vietnamese prisoners being dropped out the door of American Army helicopters--and watched them fall to their deaths. These were NOT accidents!
I SAW a B-52 strike on distant mountains, which was followed up by napalm delivered from OUR unit's fighter planes. We were told that the mountainside was "one huge underground Viet Cong HOSPITAL!" I think I was the ONLY man there not cheering as the bombs were dropped. I asked around---and could not find even ONE other individual that thought there was anything wrong with bombing a hospital!
Those were just some of the things that I SAW with my own eyes. I emphasize again that I was in a "rear" position. "Rear" is a relative term---the base that I was at was rocketed during Tet (a few months before I arrived) and was completely over-run a few months after I left! I was "lucky"---- but that did not exempt me from witnessing many things that any rational person would have to admit were simply war crimes.
When John Kerry returned from Vietnam and testified before the Senate about things he had witnessed, I did not think that ANY of his testimony was out of line with what I had personally seen.
My FEELING is that such things go on in every war---- but I cannot testify to that. I can only testify to what I saw during MY tour.
I am CERTAIN that other people had completely different experiences. Many saw a whole lot more. Many, perhaps saw a whole lot less---but I find it difficult to imagine ANY assignment to Vietnam that was SO cushy that one could have avoided seeing at least some of the types of things that I refer to.
From my experience, I would draw two conclusions:
(1) It is a huge mistake to assume that joining a National Guard or Reserve unit is in any way the equivalent of draft dodging.
(2) It is a huge mistake to dishonor anyone whom the military has deemed to have served honorably.
ANYONE dabbling in either one of those mistakes is ill-informed at best... or the lowest form of filthy scum at worst. Such people cannot possibly imagine the feelings of pain and frustration their actions bring upon those who have served honorably.
I am particularly incensed when one veteran would seek to dishonor the service of another---for political gain. I simply cannot dream of a more dishonorable, reprehensible thing to do. >>
End of excerpt.
|By Marite (Marite) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:54 pm: Edit|
>>I have to add, in view of the second part of your post above, that I told my son that he should expect to serve in the military some time in the next few years, and that it would be to protect his homeland. >>
I applaud you for telling your son that. So, now, can you tell us what are poor Americans doing in Iraq? Still looking for WMDs? And if you don't understand why Iraqi soccer players would prefer not to have American soldiers on their soil, then what were you told about the American War of Independence? That it was just about tea and taxes?
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit|
Jesus H. Christ. Marite, do you believe everything you see on the internet? There is a great book that you won't want to read called "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett. You won't read it, and I won't vote for the poseur Kerry. But this explains the "divide" in our country. You are nuts.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:03 pm: Edit|
The whole "poor American" thing is a canard, it was in Vietnam and it is today. I would just like to have a serious discussion with someone from the Kerry side, but that seems to be impossible.
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:04 pm: Edit|
No. I'm trying to hold a rational conversation here. I really would be interested if I were you, if I were stunned. It's just the way I am. And I am no Kerry supporter - I support neither of the Skull and Bones parties.
Let's take it as a given that Saddam Hussein was a really nasty fellah. So we have something to agree about to begin with. For some reason you think I have it in for Bush. I'm not quite sure why. To me - please hear me out -- Bush is Gandhi next to what Clinton did to the people of Iraq. I'm not joking. I'm a Quaker. More than a million Iraqis died as a result of Clinton's sanctions and military action between 1993 and 1996, including, according to the United Nations, 576,000 children. In 1993, and again in 1996, Clinton bombed the wastewater treatment plants and the electrical generation plants, and prohibited the shipment of simple antibiotics, penicillin, sulfa drugs, etc. into Iraq. (This is what the Oil for Food program, begun on March 20th, 1997, was supposed to alleviate, so please don't look to that canard.) The kids died of simple infections, dysentery, diarrhrea, dehydration, in short - dirty water. (I used to work in public health.) Asked about the half million kids on 60 minutes on May 12, 1996 by Leslie Stahl (who noted that the kids alone were more people than died at Hiroshima), Madeleine Albright (nice Wellesley graduate) opined that such deaths were acceptable, as far as she was concerned. Imagine what 576,000 children look like lined up head to head. Virtually every Iraqi had a brother or sister, son or daughter, grandson or granddaugher, niece or nephew dead. Think of Bill Clinton's smile.
I am proud to have been part of a Quaker effort -- illegal I might add -- to repair several of the wastewater treatment plants bombed by Clinton, and to supply rehydration equipment to the hospitals. Not nearly enough, though. Not nearly enough.
576,000 children in a country of only 18 million. A third of a generation dead. More dead children than all the people killed, tortured, murdered by Saddam Hussein (a pretty terrible guy, we agree) in 30 years. To the few Iraqis I have known, the Bush policy was a continuity with that of Clinton. And they are happy that Saddam Hussein is gone. Just as I expect the athletes are.
If I were you, I'd want to know. It has been the official policy of the United States government since Ronald Reagan that the people of Iraq are our friends, not our enemies, just ruled by a miserable, despicable despot. If you believe that, and I assume you do, why wouldn't you want to know what turned them into enemies?
And if they are enemies to begin with, wouldn't you want to know them even more?
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:19 pm: Edit|
The Iraqis aren't enemies, at least as far as I can tell. It's just the New York Times and NPR saying so. With all respect, I think you are a leftist dupe.
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit|
Okay. I see you are just not a very curious person. If it makes you feel better, the 1,000 American sons and daughters were killed by our friends; and the folks who crippled the thousands of American sons and daughters who have returned are our bosom buddies.
Hey, maybe they didn't die at all. It was all made up by the Times and NPR. No one has seen the coffins. The Pres. hasn't attended any funerals. It's all just a big hoax.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit|
The American soldiers that died in our defense in Iraq don't deserve to be dishonored, as you have done. The world isn't some "It's a Small World, After All" Disney fantasy, and that's what you people must learn. It's not that they just wear different hats than us....they want to kill us. And it's not because W is a meanie. The people who kill our soldiers in Iraq are terrorists, not "minutemen."
|By Mini (Mini) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit|
Excuse me? YOU said they weren't killed by enemies? Terrorists but not enemies? Terrorists, like those in Najaf, who have never been 50 miles from their home?
To quote you: "The Iraqis aren't enemies, at least as far as I can tell." I don't know why you are incurious as not want to take it any futher.
|By Driver (Driver) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:45 pm: Edit|
You are making the ridiculous assumption that the terrorist activities in Iraq reflect the will of the people to overthrow the "imperialists." I'm sorry, I'd like to be politer, but that's so dumb. It's ridiculous. I guess that's why you had your convention, and we had ours. The US is going to dominate the world for the conceivable future, and I say, thank God. No better system out there.
|By Skyhawk (Skyhawk) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:48 pm: Edit|
Mini and Driver, please tone down the rhetoric. If you must argue politics, please take it to the CC cafe where it belongs. Since the Republican convention - the original subject of this thread - is now over, I am closing this discussion. - Moderator Skyhawk
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