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My daughter and I just returned from spending a week looking at private colleges in New England. All of these schools state that they require four years of math among other things. My daughter is an excellent student, but doesn't like math even though she gets A's in it. She took Algebra 1 in eighth grade, then Geometry, Alegebra 2/Trigonometry, and Functional Analysis in high school. She will take the IB Math Studies SL exam in May. She is a full IB diploma candidate. She wasn't planning on taking math her senior year and was instead going to volunteer as a teacher's assistant at a local middle school during that period. (She wants to be a teacher.) My question is does this count as four years of math or only three?

Thanks.

By Drusba (Drusba) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 08:59 am: Edit

Most high schools list high school math classes taken in 8th grade on transcripts and the majority of colleges will count that as a year, but you would need to check with each school she may apply to for an answer. In any event, I would still recommend taking a senior year of math as it will be one more point in her favor on the transcript. Also, it is likely that in college she will have to take some math -- two semesters of calculus potentially -- for many majors considered unrelated to math and that includes education majors who have no intent to teach math. Not taking a math course in the senior year of high school can lead to struggles in those college math courses because you will tend to forget far too much of the math you have learned between the end of the junior year in high school and freshman year in college.

By Anngold (Anngold) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:46 am: Edit

Drusba - Thanks for the advice. I checked her transcript and the eighth grade math class is not listed. I'll try to convince her she needs to take another math class.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:11 am: Edit

My daughter has a math disability, she can write proofs but can't rattle off the times tables. She took math through her senior year ( one semester of pre calc) This was very fortuitous as her college major requires a year of calculus , and calculus was the lowest level math class offered there.
I would think your daughter needs at least pre calc for college and to be competitive

By Harvardmom (Harvardmom) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:30 am: Edit

If Anngold's daughter is aspiring to the very competitive private colleges in New England, it is important that her daughter meet the prospective college's requirements to the letter, and preferably exceed those requirements. My daughter is accepted to Harvard, Yale, UChicago, & Georgetown; waiting to hear from Stanford. Some of her classmates with 1600 SAT scores have been deferred/wait listed/rejected to Ivies with great recommendations, extra curriculars, everything going for them.

By Mike (Mike) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Two private LACs on the West coast I interviewed at both mentioned that Cal was a major addition to your transcript and it was better to have a B there then be a Valdictorian.

By Anngold (Anngold) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Everyone - thanks for all the advice. I guess I have to give my daughter the bad news. She'll have to signup for precalc and do her best to get through it. Her top choice is Bowdoin and they are very selective. Bottom line, she will have to decide what is more important. Thanks again.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Anngold, perhaps she would find it more amenable to start with the math class for educators that they are bound to require. Determine the course number at Bowdoin, and then see if it is available unline or through a transferable school. Stats would suffice if the Calc is intolerable. My DD is math dyslexic, and detests math as it requires her to work each problem a minimum of twice (transposition sometimes results in two different answers and then she has to rework to discover which was correct. ) Teachers make all the difference in a course the student doesn't like, so check those available out with several past enrollees. If you get the same negative response more than 60% of the time from A or B students, take a different class or teacher. Best of luck.

By Anngold (Anngold) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Autodidact - I'm so glad you shared these ideas. I had suggested to my daughter that maybe she could take a "Math for Elementary Teachers" type class at the local community college, but then I began to wonder if LACs would consider that a math class and if they would see that as not challenging enough. I also mentioned stats, but she told me and I verified, they only offer AP stats at her school and the teacher has a very bad rep. I think your idea of checking for online college math classes is a good one. I'll look into that with her. Thanks!

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Edit

No thanks necessary. I've spent the better part of five years trying to piece together a tolerable resume for my daughter as our local school has nothing to offer advanced students, has been cited by the Dept. of Ed for lack of a talented and gifted program, and generally sucks the state alloted TAG funds up into the general budget and disperses it to the administrators as bonuses. (Can't prove this, but it sure hasn't made any efforts to develop the program and the numbers are similar when divided by five administrators added combined perks--I've asked five times for rollover totals and been fobbed off each time. Nothing showing on the audit.) The regional academy was a godsend for us, but flattened our finances and alienated our local. Check to see if your state has post secondary options (the high school pays for the college course.) It generally doesn't apply in the summer, at least not in our state, but you can get "Cheap" summer credits at some institutions who have classes available for able high schoolers--possibly at 1/10th of the cost you'll pay after graduation. Successfully taking a CLEP test (about $70)will get another year of math on her transcript,too, if she can handle independent study. Given the number of computer prep courses available, this is a relatively pain free and inexpensive method. I would encourage her to do the work this summer and take the test and get it onto her transcript prior to the start of the year, so that her transcript speaks to her initiative, otherwise I agree with Drusba, too much material is forgotten or fuzzy after a year off, so enroll in a class. Check with Bowdoin and see if they have a summer session available to hs students. I believe her participation could actually give her a leg up in admissions process next year. Good luck and let me know if you need some link suggestions.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 11:10 pm: Edit

The above would allow her to volunteer and use the experience as the basis for her IB thesis and being in the classroom daily would either affirm her decision to be a teacher or give her pause for thought--which could be priceless. You might want to start your search (after Bowdoin) with this link which has pre-calculus online: http://utdirect.utexas.edu/ecweb/henroll.wb

By Anngold (Anngold) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 03:29 pm: Edit

Autodidact - Thanks again. You continue to provide really useful information and ideas. Fortunately my daughter has already completed her 150 IB CAS hours. She started on those the day after she finished her sophomore year of hs. The senior thesis will be a time cruncher though. I'll check the link you provided. Do you think colleges have equal respect for classes taken online or by correspondence as compared to taken at the hs?

By Bowdoin13 (Bowdoin13) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 06:56 pm: Edit

I am going to Bowdoin next year and I only took 4 years of HS Math: Algebra 1, Geometry, Alg. 2 Trig., and Intro. Calc. I have always been much more interested in the humanites than in math and science. I think that if you express a strong interest in other subjects other than math, than it would be ok to end your HS math education as a Junior.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Congratulations Bowdoin 13, you got in! However, please realize the competitive nature of admissions means that what worked this year may not still work next year.
Anngold: My advice, based on an interviewer at an Ivy, is that adcoms are looking for a full contingency of core classes, including Calculus or whatever your top math class is. I would think that any student showing the initiative to take fully accredited college classes would be looked on more favorably than one taking run of the mill high school classes. There is an expectation of greater uniformity at the college level. Correspondence and online courses require a greater commitment on the part of the student as they are personally responsible for generating their own enthusiasm for the course and slogging through the material with less direction and assistance than available in a classroom. This is a consideration, as some students find the deadlines sneak up on them, if they fail to establish a routine for studying the online subject--usually about 10-15 hours online per week, depending on subject, streaming speed, and student's reading and processing speeds with comprehension and mastery the goal. If you don't have 56K or better--and I strongly recommend high speed cable, which isn't available in all areas yet, including ours--modem speed, please save yourself or your student a lot of frustration and aggravation and opt for paper and pencil correspondence. This is strictly based on my daughter's experience. She started an online course before we had internet at home--or a computer capable of handling it. She was reliant on public use computers at the library. Three caveats here: 1. They are generally not reservable, at least in our area, so you can't guarantee availability. 2. They are often virus ridden since it goes against many librarians code of ethics to ban any sights, and nasties attach themselves to their systems. 3. Alternately, their systems may not have the necessary programs to operate your online course successfully, and you will need their techies permission, and assistance to update, download necessary components like REAL, or to bypass their system's firewalls, etc. Unfortunately, these individuals are not always available, the computer system sometimes lack sufficient space to accomodate necessary downloads, their operating systems may be the other side of obsolete, and many just simply don't have the time or inclination to accomodate special requests--and occasionally terminals or towers crash and this is disasterous if you need to submit assignments or take a test online. We thought it would be a lot more convenient than it proved. I would highly recommend a personal home computer with a multi-function printer, scanner, copier, and fax as it could be a lifesaver if the system balks in the transmission phase. Losing several hours of work is disheartening and disastrous to gpa. Identified virus-ridden assignments and attachments will not be opened, much less graded by your online instructor, so take particular care with your selection of anti-virus software. If your student has to resort to Kinkos it gets mighty expensive ($12 per hr) if you can't get it done any other way--and at midterm and end of term it may be difficult to book time during daylight hours. Finally, always, always, always verify by e-mail that the transmission was received and accepted for credit even when you receive a message "confirming" it. My daughter lost credit, and material in circumstances described above. Know your options, and methods of your redress.
Ann, I don't recall if you said which state you're in, but an excellent source for high school correspondence courses is the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. My younger daughter may be utilizing some of their courses in the event we go to visit her elderly grandmother and close relatives overseas as they've requested. She hasn't seen them in twelve years, and goodness knows when we'd be able to go after the girls start college.
It sounds as if your daughter is on the ball and perfectly capable of handling either method. I don't want to scare her off the online course, just to make you aware of our personal horror stories, because it happens and nobody brought up any of these possibilities or the means of successfully addressing them. Congratulations also on having completed the community service component of the IB so early, amazingly, many don't without a lot of nagging by facilitators or parents. Best of luck!

By Anngold (Anngold) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Bowdoin13 - Congratulations on getting accepted to Bowdoin. You are very fortunate. I hope you really enjoy it. My daughter would love to trade places with you. Have a great four years and thanks for the advice.

By Anngold (Anngold) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Autodidact - Once again thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. My daughter has decided to take AP Stats after reading all the advice given by readers of this discussion. She isn't looking forward to it, but is willing to do whatever it takes to get into the "right" school for her - in her opinion that's Bowdoin. By the way we live in Oregon.

Yes, it is wonderful that my daughter completed all of the IB CAS hours already. Once less thing to stress about.

Sorry to hear the horror stories your daughter experienced. The overseas trip sounds like a great opportunity. Enjoy!

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Glad to share. Thanks, waiting for updated financial aid package, AP exams, couple of eight week college classes and then we're off for three weeks of reacquainting providing we can find decent tickets.