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After a brief love affair with Swarthmore, my soon to be a senior daughter has decided it's too small and she'd like to go to a school like the University of Chicago, Columbia, or Brown -- a mid-sized university, preferably in a city, with excellent academics and really engaged students. The prestige factor is unimportant but we are both concerned that her list of schools none-the-less is top-heavy with highly selective colleges. What schools are somewhat less competive but filled with super-motivated students? I realize that a number of liberal arts colleges would fit this bill perfectly (and have been pushing Carleton) but she is resisting this route, she wants a larger school. She has very high test scores, excellent grades, a good niche as a writer with a bunch of community service involving writing, but with a few holes in her academic preparation (eg she took calculus last year but won't be taking either math or hard science this year) because she has chosen to study creative writing at an arts school rather than follow a more traditional high school route. She does NOT want to study creative writing in college, she wants an excellent program in history, political science, that sort of thing. She's a pretty serious student and also wants to be at place where many kids are engaged in serious community service.

Any advice on schools akin to the University of Chicago but easier to get into? Thanks.

By Im_Blue (Im_Blue) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:00 am: Edit

Northwestern is probably on par with University of Chicago.

By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:55 am: Edit

Mid-sized, in a city, excellent academics, engaged students, community service opportunities - my daughter is looking for the same schools! How about Vanderbilt, Emory, BC, just to name 3 schools I've read up on? Though I'd never consider any of them a safety, since they're certainly selective, too. How about a well-regarded public school with an honors college as more of a true safety?

The "really engaged students" factor is, IMO, the rub. My d is ready to interact with more highly motivated students than she knows in hs, and that aspect of a potential college's student body is important to her. There are certainly highly motivated students on every campus, but she'd like academics to be a primary focus for MOST of the kids where she eventually enrolls. She could probably expect that from HYP and that ilk, but none of those schools are on her list, for various reasons. I'd be interested in other parents' suggestions about less mega-selective unis where the students seem particularly motivated.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 08:11 am: Edit

"Mid-sized, in a city, excellent academics, engaged students, community service opportunities..."

Those were my daughter's criteria too when she was looking for a college. She also applied to Vanderbilt and BC - the ones on your list. She added UVA (safety state school), Smith College, W&M (only bc her dad insisted - too rural for her). She ended up at Georgetown after narrowing it down to UVA (Echols Scholar).
She leaves this week so we shall see if her choice works out. She has always been very motivated in academics and her primary activity (debate) and the students at Georgetown seem to be academically on par with her. I am not sure if U of Chicago is easier to get into though, it seems to me they are about equal. A classmate did not get into Georgetown but was accepted early to U of Chicago (he is going to Chicago).
Good luck.

By Jjsmom (Jjsmom) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 08:32 am: Edit

Not that its a safety school by any stretch, but Tufts otherwise fits her requirements. My son will be a freshman and he had many of the same requirements.

Less competitive larger schools that may meet most of her requirements: Boston U, NYU, George Washington, U. of Michigan, Emory.

Medium sized: Lehigh, Lafayette, B.C.

Good luck!

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:58 am: Edit

UVa Echols scholars, several other state schools have prestigious honors programs that are large enough to form a true community.

By Bluejay (Bluejay) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

To Clipper and others: This criteria seems to match ours also and yes, it's hard to find schools that meet them without being overly selective. UVA is one high on the list. I can't help but wonder why Georgetown and not UVA especially with the ECHOLS scholars deal. Instate costs are SO envious for the rest of us who have less than stellar state schools to choose from. Is there something residents of VA know that we don't know? W and M and UVA are such quality schools for all but especially for those who pay so little to go there. Any thoughts?

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:40 am: Edit

Yeah, I've got some thoughts
1)UVa shares the Ivy quality of being all male for many years, more resources over a long period of time, helps build quality

2)People in Va as a whole genuinely appreciate education more than in some other states.

3)Its a beautiful school in an attractive setting - the more people just want to go there, the more apply, the more that apply the more selective it can be, the more selective, the stronger the average student

4)I may be wrong about this one, its been years since I lived in Va - but there are fewer 4 year schools per capita in Va, so UVA and W&M as the oldest, have been better capitalized for many years, James Madison, for example is very young (In contrast to my home state which is poor, but the citizens seem to have a God-given right to drive no further than 1 hour to a 4 year college so that all the schools are squeezed)

This is a problem with no answer! DD wants the same thing, an intelligent student body with wide interests. Some highly motivated students are going to be present on every campus, but what is the critical mass needed to give an academic feel, or produce an academic "community"?
Since you can't measure this, DD looked for specific programs and the % of students studying abroad as signals that the etudent body might share interests of hers. Its tough to find a safety!

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:43 am: Edit

Sorry, dumb post, I just reread Bluejay's question, I answered the wrong question

By Mini (Mini) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:21 am: Edit

Please clarify -- University of Chicago for "serious community service" -- are you sure? (There's lots of good things to be said about the University of Chicago, but that wouldn't be among them -- and I was there for three years.)

I don't know if it is big enough, but other than that, Occidental meets every single one of your academic criteria, is in a mid-size city (Pasadena, and then easy access to LA), AND has large numbers of students in serious community service to boot. And (to top it off), it is much, much more diverse (26% of students are Pell Grant recipients) than any of the other schools already mentioned. Not likely a safety, but easier than UChicago.

Smith is about double the size of Swarthmore, has serious, engaged students, is in a happening town, and there are community service opportunities.

Tulane is about the right size, and right location (mid-sized city.) Don't know about community service, though. Same would be true of Rice.

But I'd really tkae a hard look at Occidental.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:23 am: Edit

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- there are VERY FEW safeties in that size range (5-7K undergrads). Vandy is one, but it's probably not the same atmosphere as Chicago. Nor would Northwestern be (I think 1/3 of NW students are in frats/sororities, for example).

Would she consider some of the larger LACs? Wesleyan and Oberlin are both just under 3000 students, compared to Swat's 1400 or so.

BTW, my D also had a brief love-affair w/Swat, which ended abruptly once she visited a couple of larger schools! She ended up at Brown, and when she was looking for safeties/matches, we found it difficult to find them in the same school size range.

By Mini (Mini) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

More on Occidental diversity:

http://www.oxy.edu/news/articles/040617-pell.html

If you go to their website, and click on "community outreach", you'll see that it is very impressive indeed. Roughly 50% participate in community service through Occidental's Committee for Community-Based Learning.

By Shennie (Shennie) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:53 am: Edit

She might want to look at the University of Rochester. They are about 5000, lots of service opportunities, strong academics. Maybe not a safety but certainly a match. My son was not ivy caliber and was accepted there with merit aid. Decided to attend a smaller school.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

If she's willing to go a little smaller (2000-2200), the University of Richmond might be a good choice - merit money there

By Kissy (Kissy) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Macalester may be a good fit for your D. It's a bit more urban than Carleton, has a diversified student body, and is noted for political science. It's drawback is it may be a bit smaller than your D's ideal school. WashU is considerably larger but anymore, can't be considered a safety by anyone. Other suggestions would be: JHU, Emory, U-Wisconsin, Claremont McKenna, UMich, Wellesley, Trinity(CT),and Pitzer. All have varying degrees of selectivity, so depending on your D's stats, some could more easily be characterized as safeties/matches over others. The difficulty in finding safety schools for students who desire an accomplished student body is that in most cases, the selectivity drops, resulting in a student body which may be less motivated than what your D prefers. The exceptions to this are schools like Grinnell or Macalester which have lower selectivity due to location (which is an important consideration for your D)or other factors. So, your D's best bet may be to look into honors programs at some of the state u's for her true safeties. Good luck to her in her search!

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit

I realize that my suggestions of Wes and Oberlin may not satisfy your need for matches/safeties, since both are fairly selective. Macalaster is a good suggestion, and even though small, it's at least in a city. Reed is also an option, if she's willing to go that small (again, in a city). Reed and Macalester were my D's two safeties, and she also wanted a medium-sized school w/serious academics, preferably in a small city (she never applied, though, b/c she got into her ED school). The fact that R and M were in cities seemed to make them more palatable in spite of their small size.

Grinnell is in the middle of nowhere, which she may not like, if she's anti-Carleton (same w/Kenyon, another good school).

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

I second the mention of both Tufts and Rochester and add Brandeis. Rochester and Brandeis award merit aid; Tufts does not. All three have very strong community service involvement.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:17 pm: Edit

I would not include UVa out-of-state as being a "less selective" option. Statistically speaking, out-of-state at UVa is extremely difficult. It may well be just as hard to get into out-of-state as UChicago.

It's a very poor "admissions value" for out of state. By, "admissions value", I mean the difficulty of admissions relative to the overall academic strength of the school. At UVa, you've got to have Ivy qualifications to get accepted to a school where the overall student body has much lower qualifications.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Based on your criteria, I would include Brown and Vanderbilt on the list. I would also include Emory, although it's actual campus is more "suburban" than "city". Even though it is in the city, you can't really get anywhere without a car.

By Dmd77 (Dmd77) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:24 pm: Edit

If your daughter wants a mid-sized school in a city, I think you should look at the cities first, then figure out which schools meet the requirements. For example, for Seattle, you could look at Seattle University and UWash to see if either of them suit your D's needs. Then move on...

How about McGill in Montreal? UPenn? Georgetown? GWU? Tufts? BU? NYU? Emory? Duke? Vanderbilt? Any of the 5 college consortium in SoCal (Scripps, etc.)? WUStL?

There are good state schools in many cities--but often the housing situation is poor.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Brown seems to be on her list already -- she's looking for safer alternatives.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:53 pm: Edit

If you want highly motivated students, a lot of schools above should probably come off the list.

Rochester, Brandeis should stay. Maybe Case Western.

Serious Urban Universities are not that common. Take out the elites, and you really will be challenged. I think the problem is that the same factors that lead to records leading to this lower tier often make kids that like things other than academics.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Bluejay - to answer your question why did she pick Georgetown over Echols at UVA. It was a long and hard decision. Echols is a special honors program that not many kids get into (I am not sure how many) but there is no merit money attached to it. We are in-state and to reafirm what Interesteddad stated - the out of state kids are of Ivy caliber but the instate students are not. The Echols kids are though. The cost was excellent for us as instaters. But...my daughter did not want to experience the same kids she experienced for the last 4 years in high school. She wanted something different - more diversity - roommate not from VA - city school. UVA is a wonderful school and I am NOT saying anything bad about it it just wasn't for my daughter.

Someone suggested George Washington U and I second that. If your daughter's stats are good she can get merit money from them. American U also. Sounds like you are getting a lot of good suggestions!

By Jrpar (Jrpar) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Clipper - what is the typical in-state stats profile for UVA? Do you know generally?

By Mini (Mini) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

I think you'd find "serious" community service at the vast majority of schools already cited to be miniscule. You'll generally find a little bit of tutoring here and there, and that's about it.

If that's really important, check that first, and save yourself a lot of time.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Jrpar --- Well, I am just going to give a ballpark figure from the kids that my daughter knows from her school and other schools. Northern Virginia sends many more kids than we do. Most of the kids that get in have over a 3.9 weighted (in our system no honors courses are weighted, but AP courses add only .0250 for an A - most valedictorians have around 4.2 except at the 2 magnet schools - 4.8 and 5.0). They rank in the top 5-7% of their classes and their SATs are mid 1300's. URMs have a totally different criteria from what I have seen. One girl I know had a 980 SAT but had a 3.9, in the top 10 and took the hardest courseload at her school. She got one of the minority scholarships that UVA offers. Another URM had a 1200 SAT and was below the top 25% and he got the minority scholarship too. He had a lot of leadership activities though.
The year my oldest daughter graduated everyone in the top 10 (1-10) went to UVA. It is almost a sure thing that the top students go to UVA. I don't want to say it is boring but it isn't very often that you hear someone go someplace else besides a school in VA. I guess bc UVA is so good and cheap why not?
Another reason my daughter did not want to go to UVa was that it has a big greek/party element. She is not into partying and she saw it go on in high school (not that they will not party at Georgetown! LOL) so she didn't want to see the same people over and over for the next four years. Virginia people are nice but there is no diversity.
Also and this is petty, kids at UVa like to talk about how smart they are. Kids will brag about being valedictorian or whatever. It's like they have to let people know they are smart. This was funny - my friend was telling me that her son (who was val and did not go to UVa) was out with a bunch of friends who were at UVa and one of the girls said to the other girl oh I guess *** (my friend's son) was salut at your high school since you were val. The girl was very embarrased bc she told all her new friends that SHE was the val and she got caught in her fib. But that is just an example of what goes on there. I could tell other stories and I am sure all schools have their little quirks so I won't.

Sorry for the rambling. I am sure someone will be upset with what I wrote but it's just another persons opinion and/or observation.

By Bluejay (Bluejay) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Actually that's exactly the kind of "rambling" that I'm interested in hearing. Thanks for sharing.

By Alexandre (Alexandre) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:55 pm: Edit

"Any advice on schools akin to the University of Chicago but easier to get into?"

Sascha, many have given you options, and either they are as good as Chicago academicaly but more selective or not nearly as good and less selective. The problem here is that of the top 25 universities in the nation, Chicago is one of the least selective. I cannot think of a top mid-sized university of equal academic stature as Chicago that is easier to get into.

By Scma (Scma) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 08:56 pm: Edit

If you are looking for schools with good service opportunities I would suggest any of the Jesuit schools. They also tend to be in the size range you seem to be looking at. Any of the Loyolas (Maryland, Chicago, New Orleans, Loyola Marymount), Fordham, Fairfield, St. Joseph's. BC & Georgetown have already been mentioned.

By Jrpar (Jrpar) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Clipper, thank you for answering (and it wasn't at all rambling . I asked about the instate stats because my son as a legacy would be considered instate for admissions purposes (but not tuition!). The only stats I've seen are blended in-state and out-of-state. VERY hard to figure out how my son would be viewed; his SAT's are high but GPA is from a rigorous private school and not as high. Thanks for your input.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:21 pm: Edit

There is something about a small school in a big city that makes it seem bigger. I guess it's. . .well. . . part of something bigger, which for the OP would be a plus for community service opportunities among other things.

I can vouch for community service activity at Occidental and Macalester - well above the norm at both. And both have excellent poli sci/IR, among other first-class departments. Reed would be an option, too. . .I've heard great things about the history department there, and it's overall academic strength is well-known.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:46 pm: Edit

>> I asked about the instate stats because my son as a legacy would be considered instate for admissions purposes (but not tuition!). The only stats I've seen are blended in-state and out-of-state. VERY hard to figure out how my son would be viewed; his SAT's are high but GPA is from a rigorous private school and not as high. Thanks for your input.

As part of an anti-affirmative action effort, Linda Chavez' lobby organization funded a research project concerning UVa undergrad admissions. They used Freedom of Information Act laws to acquire a complete set of admissions data from UVa -- applicants and acceptances with SAT scores, GPA, high school class rank, legacy, in-state/out-of-state, and race.

Here is a link to the resulting report which has the information you are looking for:

http://www.ceousa.org/docs/virginia2.doc

The data is slightly out of date (1999) so you would probably need to ratchet the SAT scores up a bit. But, the report contains graphs with in-state versus out-of state and all kinds of VERY informative data. It is, as far as I know, the only available data broken down so comprehensively for a highly selective college or university.

It is strongly anti-racial peference, but you can ignore that or not as you see fit. The data is the data.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:55 pm: Edit

On community service:

Since this was an area of interest to my daughter, we did look at the community service programs at the colleges she considered.

I would agree with Mini that most college community service programs are pretty superficial in their activities.

The exception is Harvard's student run organization. It is the largest and oldest student run organization in the country with very ambitious programs. To tell the truth, the students are probably a little too involved in terms of time commitments relative to the academic side of things. So, as parents, shelling out tuition money, it's more than OK if the community service programs are bit less ambitious!

Of perhaps more importance is the emphasis that a school places on instilling a life-long commitment to social and/or civic service. There are people who believe that those who benefit from an elite college education have an obligation to give something back to the world. In this vein, I think that reading a school's mission statement is important. If something is very important to a college, it will be in the mission statement.

By Par72 (Par72) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 01:31 am: Edit

Holy Cross and Colgate are 2 very strong LAC's that offer a fine balance of academics and social life. Holy Cross has a very distinguished alumni base Chris Matthews,Edward Jones(2004 Pulitzer Winner) 5-6 Congressmen, and a Supreme Court Justice. HC and Georgetown are perhaps the best Jesuit Schools.

By Jrpar (Jrpar) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 07:33 am: Edit

Interesteddad - Thank you for the UVA admissions study - amazing stuff!

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 08:48 am: Edit

This is a great thread--lots of good info and I can't argue with the list of schools. Better than I have seen from many counselors!!

My two cents worth--several matches that she shows good demonstrated interest can serve as safeties for kids that have an excellent profile and stats. However, this old lady always likes one true safety on the list, and a state or local school with the best writing department can fit the bill on that. Something that she can get in even if she doesn't do so well next year or a crisis arises. It will not necessarily fit her criterion as well as her other schools but should be the best of the lot--that's where a little research and questioning comes in. This is a tuck it in your pocket safety school that may not have a difficult app to fill out and where she does not have to show much demonstrated interest. Other than that she can go with 2-3 of any of the other schools that everyone is suggesting such as Brandeis, Rochester, Case. To that list I would CMU, University of Iowa, Univerity of Missouri, (columbia), Ohio University, Syracuse though they are larger; they have excellent writing programs. professional writing programs. I am predicting that she will probably get into one of first choice schools so just a few of these that fit the bill would be good backups , and then one absolute safety would be do the trick.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 10:03 am: Edit

http://socialjustice.georgetown.edu/service/programs/foci.html

This is a program that Georgetown has. I am sure other colleges have the same sort of community serice outreach program.

By Bluejay (Bluejay) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

To Clipper and those with more insider information about UVA: Any thoughts on the residential colleges at UVA, Brown and Hereford (sp?) ? What kinds of kids are attracted to those and what are the merits? Thanks.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 07:59 pm: Edit

I am not sure about the residential colleges at UVA but I will ask my daughter. I am sure some of her friends are in them. I do know that Echols Scholars, Rodman Scholars and Jefferson Scholars all live together the first year. UVA wants the scholars together the first year I suppose bc they are all advanced and will be taking harder subjects than the freshman. Misery loves company or birds of a feather - whatever LOL!

By Jab93 (Jab93) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

You mentioned Columbia, but how about Barnard?
It has pretty much every advantage of Columbia, and is a bit easier to get into... it has outstanding academics... I was a PhD student at Berkeley, and knew at least 3 women who graduated from Barnard and were now getting PhDs from Berkeley...

By Clipper (Clipper) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Bluejay - I asked my daughter about the residential college at UVA and she said none of her friends were in them bc they are in the Echols dorm. Sorry, maybe you should post on the UVA site.

By Bluejay (Bluejay) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Clipper-thanks for checking on the residential colleges. Of course that leads to another question: Is the Echols dorm just for kids in the various honor programs or is it a large enough that all honors, plus others live there? I know at another state university the designated dorm has 60 per cent honors and 40 per cent non honors living there. Seems to be a good balance.
Thanks again for all of the input on UVA. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions!

By Sascha (Sascha) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 07:07 am: Edit

Folks--Thanks so much for all the excellent suggestions, which we are taking to heart. You guys are great.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:05 am: Edit

Bluejay -- I don't think Brown has residential colleges in the sense you mean (like Yale's, I assume).

By Bluejay (Bluejay) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 09:23 am: Edit

Actually, I was talking about the 2 residential colleges at UVA which ironically, one of them is named Brown College!

The attraction is a smaller unit at a larger school.

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

You might add Trinity College in CT to Case, Brandeis and Rochester. Case and Brandeis are on my son's list as U Chicago alts - and will probably buzz up to Rochester to visit this fall.

I would not include CMU - I just attended a traveling info session and am very peeved at them. The school is clearly trying to position itself as away from any urban problems ("no marauding steel workers on campus") and in an affluent area ("with a large Jewish population for diversity"). The photo they used pointed towards Shenley park, not Pittsburgh. He made the steel workers crack not once but twice. My son did not attend because he was still on vacation - he would have blown a gasket. I restrained myself and only asked CMU was committed to economic diversity - and got a non-answer. The session ended when the fire alarm in the hotel went off.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Ohio Mom,

Why bash CMU based on one info session? Have you visited? In fact, everything you stated above happens to be true. No steelworkers left in Pgh. Schenley Park, which is georgeous, IS adjacent to the campus, and a real treasure. Just across Schenly park is the Squirrel Hill district of Pgh, which IS heavily Jewish.

CMU has its limitations, as does Chicago, BTW. And, if one fears "urban problems", they would be much more advised to avoid Chicago than CMU. But for many kids, CMU is a good fit. It has much better arts and engineering than Chicago, weaker social sciences, but a similar intensity. Full disclosure: My D starts at Chicago in a few weeks, was accepted to but turned down CMU.

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Massdad,
I used to live in Pittsburgh. We have friends at CMU - working and students. Very good for professional types. Very good as an almost ran for MIT/Caltech - and better in some departments. I have recommended CMU - and will continue to do so - for many of their programs are excellent. But not for social engagement - that the OP was concerned with. I think there are better choices.

I find the steelworker crack particularly offensive as many of these skilled jobs - that paid a living wage - have been sold down the river in the name of increased profits. I will be contacting the young man that conducted the session to let him know my feelings - if this is not the message the school wants to convey, he should know about this. If it is the true message - a sad thing it is.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Ohio Mom -- I agree the steelworker remark was offensive, particularly to anyone interested in CMU who might have parents who didn't go to college and work in blue-collar jobs. Your question about economic diversity was a good one to ask under the circumstances.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Ohio Mom, thanks for the explanation. I get concerned when I hear of folks passing on a school because of a bad info session, tour, etc. This process is just too complex to jump to conclusions hastily.

My own experience with CMU is interesting. We did a road trip just about a year ago, and the only time we had to visit CMU was on a day where students were checking in. I called admissions and was told summarily to not bother visiting that day. They said no students were available to do tours so they would be closed. We probably would have taken the office at its word except that we already had a visit scheduled with the music program. Music's person was great - spent over an hour. We then walked by admissions who had shifted position and was giving tours after all.

I had already sent a nasty note to the head of admissions, who replied after we got back with a nonspecific reply of "sorry, please don't be mad" which did not help my attitude.

Nonetheless, I ignored these "slights" (after all, aren't we supposed to be customers etc., who shop when it's convenient for us, not the school? guess not...) and let my D make her own decision, which was to apply. I was also curious to see if my email would be held against her.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit

I lived in the CMU area for many years, and for all the cracks about steelworkers this insensitive person made, the school has alot akin with that group as CMU is a prime choice for the best Pittsburgh students.

As someone who has lived in Hyde Park and been at U of Chicago as well, I agree with Massdad, that both schools, as all schools, have issues. I would report the offensive remarks.

But CMU is a top knotch school with some wonderful opportunities, great professors, and a interesting writing department. English is split into literature and writing which is further broken down into Professional Writing, Creative Writing and Technical Writing. Those departments are then integrated with their outstanding technical and arts schools. It is a unique program and many kids come out with a goal and jobs with an English degree because of this pragmatic approach. I do not know of a program of its type in the country.

If I took slights to heart from various offices of colleges, none of my kids would be in college. Colleges are staffed with all kinds of people and many are not where they should be. One problem with the visiting and dealing with tours that we do is that we are too often dealing with the cover of the book. Once your kid is in a college, your dealings with admissions is over. It is much more important that the departments and the support systems are in place and that the school is a fit for child both environmentally (which covers a lot of areas) and academically. It is going to be HOME for a while. Your interaction will be with the accounting department, primarily, you hope. And some of them are screwed up as well, I promise you. I have known of families in error loops at the most selective schools.

CMU is an unusual school in many ways. I know many kids who love it there and have thrived, and those who could not stand it there. But this is so with many schools.

By Clipper (Clipper) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Bluejay - When we took the tour in April we were taken to a dorm that was similar to the Echols' dorm. The dorms are several stories high and resemble a motel from the outside. You access your "suite" by going into a door from the walkway and there is a living area. Then there are doors that lead into the students' particular room. The bathroom that is shared by all 5 rooms (10 people) is down the hall from the suite area.
The tourguide was not very good and was not an Echols so she couldn't really answer my question if other students were also in the same building. I would think that they would be bc the building was quite large and there aren't that many freshman (1st year) Jefferson/Echols/Rodman scholars.
What surprised me the most about the dorms (and not all the dorms are like this at UVA) was that you get in from the outside rather than coming in to the building and having a center hall.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:25 pm: Edit

I have just e-mailed CMU admissions to try to clear this up. Another factor to consider in info sessions it the situation where the bean counters and marketers have taken over, and the academics are lost in the gloss. Its a difficult balancing act - if you get one person's attention with flash, you crank off another that is looking for rather more substance.

U Chicago seems to be a school one has to visit - not comparable to other institutions - no lukewarm reactions. We will visit this fall.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Just some more CMU info:
Our first CMU travelling info. session was awful. It was unorganized, and terribly boring. We left early.

I just dropped my son off at CMU today!!!

Something (well, the CS program), kept drawing him back for a second look.

He loved his first campus visit (10 degree weather, and grey). The second time we stopped by the Admissions office, unannounced, on the way back from a NE summer trip. It also happened to be the week before orientation, and they told us they could not accomodate us because their entire staff and students were setting up and concentrating on orientation weekend. We took a self guided tour instead. Having just returned from orientation weekend, I now appreciate their focus! They did have tours for the admitted students and their families during orientation, so perhaps that is what you saw during your visit.

In short, there were good things and bad things both at CMU and every school we visited. However, had he based his decision on our first travelling info. session, he would have missed all the good things at least at CMU!

By all means, however, let them know your thoughts. I would be interested in hearing their answer!

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 08:31 am: Edit

I agree with Janimom that CMU should not be overlooked just b/c of one person's insensitive remarks, but I also think it would be appropriate to comment to the admissions dept about the statements.

In general, I agree that poorly organized info sessions or tour guides you just don't like should not be a reason to cross a school off your list. The remark by the CMU person, IMO, went beyond that and could raise concerns, but I still would consider whether the school overall was right for me (if I were the student), although the comment would give me pause (esp if made in front of admissions deans or others who have some say in admissions, and those people just let it go).

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:18 am: Edit

Rhonda,
in our case, CMU is off the list anyway because my son would have to commit to a particular college and major much earlier in the process than he will likely be ready to. I am pursuing the steelworker quip with their admissions department because CMU has a lot going for it, and they should not be sending that message if it is unintended. Incidentally, I asked my son if he would have said anything at the session - he would have, and it started with 'captains of industry' and included 'hired guards at the gates'. Ouch.

Its funny, the info session we attended at MIT got more than a little rowdy (wasn't us that time). The poor student leading the session was unable to answer some of the questions raised by folks who had clearly traveled from the west coast to visit. One of the young men asking the pointed questions would clearly have been an asset to the institution - but I doubt that he will even apply. Again, its a balancing act. Some people felt the student lead session was less intimidating.