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Need some help on understanding these schools and who we should be looking at them....

For some reason, I don't hear much about either of them...or I read/hear a vague reference from a well respected person...

Are they worth a serious look for a serious student? How are their history depts? Which would position better for law school?

By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:12 am: Edit

My d and I visited these schools last week, and she liked them quite a bit. Though of course they're very different, my d will probably apply to both because she loves Boston and because each school offers an environment she thinks she'd enjoy, as well as programs she's interested in.

As to whether they're worth a look for the serious student, I suppose that depends on what the student is looking for. BC in particular enjoys a reputation in our area for excellent academics. 7 or 8 years ago, our school's top student (with 1600 SATs) turned down Harvard for the Presidential Scholarship at BC. She's stayed in touch with our GC, who reports that she had many opportunities for travel and internships, etc., at BC, and speaks glowingly about her undergrad days there.

3 years ago, our school's top student chose BU, again because of an excellent merit scholarship. She, too, has been very happy there (I think she's a business major?) and has loved the experience of living in such a great city.

Our tours were impressive. BC's campus is utterly beautiful, with very fine sports and science facilities, library, etc. My d must REALLY like what she saw and heard, because she didn't care about several campus life issues that she probably wouldn't accept elsewhere: housing guaranteed only 3 of 4 years; 40 percent of freshman live on a satellite campus and take a shuttle bus in to the main campus; and no cars allowed for students. The only merit scholarship available is the full-tuition Presidential Scholarship, offered (I think) to 15 admitted students. Acceptance rate about 33 percent last year (22,000 applications received, 7,000-plus accepted, to yield an incoming class of appx. 2100). As you'd expect from a Jesuit college, there's a heavy emphasis on service opportunities.

BU didn't show well from the T we took back from BC, but d decided to take a look anyway, and was glad she did. Though it borders a major commercial thoroughfare, it still seems a unified campus. It's a big, big place, with impressive buildings for the various schools and departments. Once off Commonwealth Avenue, there are areas of quiet, though only a little bit of green. The tour ended in the WORST college dorm room I have ever seen (think they ought to try to leave a different last impression). The guide did tell us that it was a worst-case scenario, and had walked us past a long street of attractive restored town houses/dorms, where freshman CAN live, though most don't.

Both schools have law schools, and I've read that BC's particularly has a top reputation in the Boston area. Hth - I'd say both schools are worth a look for a kid who wants to be in Boston.

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:13 am: Edit

I know someone who got a full scholarship to B.U.He wanted to be a lawyer like his father.Im sure it must be a fine school but haven't researched it.It is in the city.Personally I feel touchy about B.C.I do not know what the religious influence may be . I think it could be like Villanova.I know many who have gone to visit B.C. but did not get much aid so did not attend.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:34 am: Edit

Frazzled one's impressions of the two schools are very accurate. BC is smaller and a little bit more "suburban" in feel. BU is much larger and definitely urban. It's close to Fenway Park, home of the Red Sox. Both have excellent history departments.
Boston College Law School used to be THE law school to go to if one wanted to go into Mass politics and especially into Boston politics. I think that factor has faded a bit as the Mass political scene has become a little more diverse. Both BU and BC would position students well for law school.

By Thumper1 (Thumper1) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:37 am: Edit

That "awful dorm" you saw at BU is the typical freshman room. Most freshmen either live on West Campus, in Warren Towers (right in the middle of the campus on Commonwealth) or in the Towers (that is probably the "model" you saw). The model room is very similar to the rooms in these dorms. The nicer dorms (brownstones and apartments) you saw are for upperclassmen, usually juniors or seniors...but they are well worth the wait as they are terrific! Also, the cost of off campus housing in Boston is outrageous and the on campus housing at BU is quite nice for upperclassmen. DS goes to BU and LOVES it there. He wanted an urban campus and really likes all that it has to offer. You can get anywhere in greater Boston by just hopping on the T. He found his academic courses to be very challenging. BU is becoming known for grade deflation and DS said he worked very hard to get the grades he received. He felt the instructors were excellent and accessible.

By Jnm123 (Jnm123) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:20 am: Edit

Fraz---

We visited BU with D a couple weeks ago and on the tour saw the same dorm room in the Towers that you looked at.

All I can say is that you haven't seen a WORST dorm room until you've taken the campus tour at Univ of Illinois--Urbana. Like a matchbox.

Most spacious that we've seen so far were at Miami/Ohio in Oxford.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 12:27 pm: Edit

We also visited both in the spring. We were staying downtown and took the T out to BC. After going by BU D did not even want to stop on the way back. We made her. After eating lunch in the student union she felt the school was way to large for her and she would not like to attend a school that large. We took the tour anyway. Our tour guide was fair. Actually asking the group if anyone had any job leads, she was a senior. After the tour though we went into the reception area to warm up. They have several students in the reception area to talk with. We got talking with a young man from Northern Ca. who is majoring in the field that D was interested in. He totally sold the parents on BU. It is a small program within a big school and he felt he had never felt like a number. He was a freshman but got lucky in the housing lottery and ended up in a themed house on Bay St. He invited us back to look at his house. It was a beautiful restored brownstone. He had several friends hanging out in his room and they presented a warm picture of BU.
We left with a good feeling about the school. Thought D would change her mind but still felt she would not apply.

By Haithman (Haithman) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 01:21 pm: Edit

How is the business school at BC? And do top banks come to recruit there?

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 01:55 pm: Edit

I am from Boston and went to Northeastern (yes, I am biased towards my school). Both BU and BC are highly respected here. However, BC has a much stronger alumni network than BU. In fact, it’s almost to the point of being fanatical. This largely stems from the BC Eagles’ success in athletics. Doug Flutie is practically worshiped by BC alumni. The triple eagles in the city (i.e., BC High, BC undergrad, and BC grad school) still talk about his Hail Mary pass to Gerard Phalen at the Orange Bowl in the late 1980s. But BU has a better national reputation and greater opportunities for students to participate in research projects. After all, BU has extensive graduate programs, including a well respected Medical School. In terms of business they are about the same. You may also want to check out Northeastern (excellent internship program with top companies and more of a campus than BU, my bias shows), Babson (outstanding entrepreneurship program), and Bentley (has its own simulated trading floor). All the top companies in the area are chock full of graduates from these schools. But in terms of liberal arts, Tufts would be a better choice than both BU and BC and any of the above mentioned schools.


Good luck!

By Haithman (Haithman) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

bump

By Dmd77 (Dmd77) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Warning: old fogey's old impressions being discussed here.

I lived in several different apartments in the middle of BU student housing from 1975 to 1983 (it was a cheap and tawdry neighborhood--cheap was important). I HATED the BU students. Loud, drunk, and disorderly, even at 3AM.

Then Sununu became president of BU and tried to establish them as a reputable university instead of a diploma mill for rich New Yorkers who wanted to hang out in Boston and weren't good enough to get into Harvard, MIT, or BC. He sort of succeeded.

BC, OTOH, was always the home of the serious student--who happened to be Catholic. (And even a few non-Catholic, non-BC graduates remain impressed by Doug Flutie. Myself included. It was a hell of a pass.)

These are OLD impressions--but don't forget that Boston, if nothing else, is a city that holds onto its traditions and its view of places. I'd be willing to put good money down on a bet on these impressions---with anyone over 30.

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:41 pm: Edit

I think that you meant to say that Jon Silber became president of BU and not "Sununu." Mr. Sununu is the former governor of Vermont.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Besides old fogeys who went to either school, the only under-25 I know left BC after sophomore year even though he was recruited athlete. Reason: homogenous student body, ie Catholic, white, suburban.

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

In term of diversity BU is the clear winner. BU also has one of the highest international student populations in the U.S. (ranked in the top 5). But BC is now far more diverse than it was in the old days.

By Sooky6 (Sooky6) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Dr. Dean is the former governor of VT, Sununu is the current Senator from New Hampshire. (Couldn't help myself.)

By Jrpar (Jrpar) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:35 pm: Edit

BC is a classic college campus; BU doesn't really have a heart to its campus. I think the key is to visit both of these schools.

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Actually, John Sununu was governor of New Hampshire from 1983 to 1989:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_of_New_Hampshire

By Sooky6 (Sooky6) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:22 am: Edit

I don't think anyone disputes that, Alan! It just struck me as funny to see him described as the "former governor of Vermont" when he is the current Senator from New Hampshire (so close)

I think people are a little hard on BU's campus. Maybe it doesn't have a heart, but it does have some grass (behind the scenes a bit). Lots of people like it alot, if it is not as pretty and classic as BC's. Agreed, you must visit. My impressions as a neighbor have varied alot depending on time of year -- but the "drive by" view of it from Commonweath Avenue isn't the whole story, there is alot to the campus that is off the beaten path a bit.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:23 am: Edit

In the 1960s and 1970s, BU was a second-rate university. While Silber was autocratic and made some bad decisions, he also turned BU into a first-rate university.
Some of its faculty is absolutely stellar. Among them Elie Wiesel, Robert Dallek (Johnson's biographer). Silber has used generous merit aid to attract a higher caliber of students. He has also eagerly courted affluent international students, many of whom are more interested in partying than in studying. A lot of the Boston night scene has been fueled by their presence and their money. Although the size of the student body is still large, it has actually shrunk somewhat since the 1960s.

By Dmd77 (Dmd77) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

Thank you all. Yes I had Silber and Sununu confused. And weirdly, I've had them confused for years, because I really thought Sununu was the former pres of BU. Anyway, I would disagree that BU is a first-rate university, although I think it's partly that BU is damned by its proximity to other truly first-rate universities--and because everyone I've ever known who went to BU explains that it's because they didn't get into some other Boston school.

And for those of you who would like to be even more confused: John H Sununu is the former governor of NH and the father of John E Sununu, present senator of NH.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:39 am: Edit

Dmd:

Harvard consistently raids BU for its faculty. That's why I think it is a first-rate university. BU's African studies program is far better than Harvard's non-existent one.

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:47 am: Edit

Marite, it's 12:40 am.

By Par72 (Par72) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:47 am: Edit

BU is much more diverse while BC is a Jesuit school. In terms of academic tradition both trail Harvard,MIT,Tufts,Brandeis,Wellesley,Holy Cross,Amherst,Williams,and Smith. Also both have benefited from their location in Boston.

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:50 am: Edit

Marite, don't just post and run away.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 02:15 am: Edit

I thought BU had the largest contingent of Harvard educated faculty in the US?

(It's only 6:15 pm here....)

(On Thursday, lol)

By Dmd77 (Dmd77) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 05:48 am: Edit

Marite: Well, if Harvard can go to BU for its faculty--and succeed, that would imply that the faculty prefers Harvard to BU... and many first-rate professors are at second-rate (and even worse) institutions, in my observation. To me, it's the quality of the students is also important... And BU just doesn't have that quality. (It may also be that your definition of first-rate and mine are different: I'd only describe about 30 colleges as first-rate.)

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 08:44 am: Edit

Dmd:

I agree with you that students are a crucial factor in making a university first-rate; on that count, of course, Harvard beats BU easily. BU, however, has made great strides since you and I were in college and BU was both larger and far less selective than it is now. Perhaps saying that it is first-rate is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think one can get a really good education at BU. The caliber of profs is as good as those at Harvard. It used to be that, when Harvard recruited a tenured prof, it would seek to place the spouse in a neighboring university and said university would roll over and say yes. No more. It's still more attractive to teach at Harvard than at BU (I have no idea whether it's due to higher salaries or what), so Harvard has an easier time raiding BU (but traffic can go the other way, too, and Harvard has let go of some stellar junior faculty who now grace other universities). Raiding neighboring universities has become fairly routine as families need not be uprooted and children's education need not be disrupted.

Still, I agree that the quality of fellow students is a major dimension of a good college education.

BHG: How do you know I'm looking at you if you're not looking at me? You can only notice how late it is if you are up yourself, LOL! I was watching the men's gymnastics and I'm very glad I did. What drama!

By Thumper1 (Thumper1) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 08:45 am: Edit

Just my humble opinion as a parent here...BC and BU are very different types of schools. DS goes to BU. He wanted an urban campus and easy access to the city without a car. BU was not initially his first choice, but rose to the top because of very good adcom interactions and personal attention. He loves it there, and finds the campus just right for him. He wouldn't have gotten out of the car at BC...that type of school didn't appeal to him. Not urban enough, too small, too self contained, to "campusy". Both of these schools are terrific. They appeal to different types of students in many ways. Both have strong programs in certain areas. In my opinion, the only thing that makes them "comparable" is the word "Boston" in their names.

By Alan5 (Alan5) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:29 am: Edit

IMO, one the biggest mistakes that Silber made during his reign over BU was to dump the school's football program. The move alienated many of the school's alumni. BU has a very low alumni giving rate of about 10%. By comparison, thanks in large part to its success on the gridiron, BC's alumni are very loyal to the school. BC's giving rate is about 40 %. (four times higher than BU). But I would agree that BU does have better faculty than BC, especially in the arts & sciences.