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An article in the Boston Metro today titled "Public Universities taking gamble on casino studies" should generate some discussion. It seems that San Diego State U,Michigan State,Tulane U's University College division and UMASS/Amherst have had some form of gambling course for the last five years. Quoting from the article " Courses range from the study of gambling laws around the country to operating on sovereign Indian land, plus casino security,pit boss management,dealers and slot machine repair.

"It's disgusting" said State Senator Frank Padavan,a Queens Republican and vocal opponent of New York's reliance on gambling revenues to balance budgets. "I think it's inappropropriate for the state to become a vehicle by which people are in increasing numbers addicted.....to have that policy reinforced through a curriculum in a public university is reprehensible"

"we are over enrolled" said William Byxbee,dean of the college of extended studies at San Diego State. "We have lists like you can't believe"

Is your D or S looking for a major that is out of the ordinary?

By Dstark (Dstark) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:13 am: Edit

My son would love this major.
I don't think the proliferation of gambling casinos and the state government's need for revenues from the casinos is a good thing for society.

By Backhandgrip (Backhandgrip) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:20 am: Edit

I don't know about a major but think one of my sons would like a Gambling elective.(They play with chips in the h.s. cafeteria before school.I do not approve.)

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

Hmmm.

I do not approve of gambling or of education's reliance on lotteries and casinos.

But, a lot of math is associated with gambling and probability. Cardano, a major figure in the history of math, wrote a book on gambling. He also lost a fortune in gambling.

By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:34 am: Edit

Tulane's University College is the part of the university that exists for the local population. Since there are casinos along the river in NO, I'm not surprised they have a major for it. I don't gamble, but I also see offering the major as being no different from folks in Orlando or Anaheim pursuing resort management - if it's offered locally - or students pursuing degrees in hotel and restaurant management. I also am not thrilled with the funding of governments through gambling, but the truth of the matter is that gambling has revitalized previously ignored impoverished areas of the U.S. It has pumped money into the school systems and given jobs to people who before had none or a poor one. You only have to go to places like Cripple Creek, Colo. and Deadwood, SD and a dozen other communities that were suffering economically and see the brand new high schools and revitalization that is going on. Granted, it's not all good, and I'm sure locals can point out problems, but they will probably also tell you how they have money in the bank for the first time in years.

Would I feel good about paying for my son to get a degree in it? No. Do I condemn others for spotting an opportunity where none existed before - including universities? No. If they are in the community outreach business, they have to adjust to the needs of the community. I for one would love for the folks in those communities to have had the opportunity to find success and revitalization in something else, but it just hasn't happened.

By Songman (Songman) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:41 am: Edit

Agree- Along! What has always bothered me though is the hypocritical manner in which many states operate. In many states gambling is illegal, yet their form of gambling (Keno, lotteries, etc) is perfectly legal.

By Kingkonglives (Kingkonglives) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:49 am: Edit

"It has pumped money into the school systems and given jobs to people who before had none or a poor one." i think for the most part this is misleading. The revenue from gambling/lottery (this is coming from LAUSD person i asked) is used as a sort of education budget overhead and a money supply. They don't actually put in extra money into the budget with that money. If they have more money they siphon it off to some other budget area.

Gambling is taking off like crazy in high school right now. No kidding... I mean I play recreationally, and affluent areas are always going to have these kinds of wasteful activities.

By Songman (Songman) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:58 am: Edit

It is funny King that you mentioned gambling and high schoolers. It seems since the celebrity card show on TV has been popular there are a tremendous amount of high school poker games cropping up as a new social trend? At least in our town? Are you finding the same?

By Dstark (Dstark) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:07 am: Edit

Poker is big at my son's high school. The mathematics and psychology of the game are benefits.
Hopefully, no addictions develop.

By Kingkonglives (Kingkonglives) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:13 am: Edit

rawrr my post was eaten :-(
well anyways yes... my friends have been organizing poker nights all through the summer (not super regularly but...) i didn't have time to attend any. Poker is pretty huge (even before high school). In middle school the gambling was mostly craps... iono it was very trendy back then. There are huge tournaments (huge being relative like 50 people) every few months during the school year... yeah. so yeah...

By Songman (Songman) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Another quote from the article" "it saddens me that SUNY is involved in such a cynical and insidious process,one that fuels anti-social gambling pathologies while subordinating and suborning its basic institutional mission-education,not training" said State University of New York Trustee Candace de Russy.

SUNY spokesman countered with that a " public university should be there to provide jobs to help the state's workforce".

By Simba (Simba) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Slot machines, lottery=Voluntary tax on stupid people.

(Few time a year, I do pay that tax, but not in TX, but in LA).

Having said that, the slot machines are mathematically amazing and facinating beasts. How the stuff works web site has a very nice explanation on morden day slot machines.

By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Kingkong, yes, that happened in TX with the lottery. It was earmarked for education to get it approved, then the legislature created a huge slush fund and the syphoning began. I wasn't clear in my post, but was referring to communities like Tunica, MS where the casinos have gone in along the banks of the Mississippi River. The inhabitants of Tunica pay no utilities and no property taxes and there is a new school. Many also get a paycheck from one of the casinos.

Simba, I agree. I also think of it not as tax, but as entertainment - as long as you set a limit and stick to it. I know several friends who make it to Shreveport once in a blue moon spend their small bundle of mad money and leave. I have been known in my younger days to hit the $2 window at the track. I was really scientific about it. Bet on all of the gray horses since I love gray horses. They all won or placed that day. Lady in front couldn't get over it because the gray's "never win." Our huge earnings paid for our parking and lunch. And, I agree that slot machines must be fascinating. Otherwise, people wouldn't sit at them all day, watching the repetition. I think it must be mesmerizing.

Songman, the second quote from the article was also very interesting to me. I would love to believe that every human being in the world valued education above all else and had the opportunity to get it, but some just want or need a job, and an "education" to them involves the practical classes needed to advance them on the job. And since they are tax payers too, I think they believe that they should be offered what they want and need from the state schools - even if others don't approve of the offerings. Boy, talk about an area filled with land mines! It's being debated by people smarter than I. But I am heartened in the fact that it is being debated. Universities should be dynamic places and institutions need to exist to meet the needs of the local population. They also need those at the top who would inspire the others who are involved in only practical pursuits to see that knowledge for the sake of knowledge is good, and it's fun!

By Simba (Simba) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Actually, in LA the Texas money pays college education fees to any school in LA if you have certain scholastic scores. You can also get some spending money if you score higher than minimum.

I like to support kids education. \clipart{smile}

I wish Texas would get off their butt and start casino gambling. The scratch off games are very similar to pull of a slot machine anyway.

By Fredo (Fredo) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

As we speak, there are 5 15 year old boys in my basement doing what they've been doing all summer: playing poker. Buy in is limited to $20, so that's the most they can lose. The pool table is now a poker table but seeing as how they never played pool before, at least it's being used. And I know exactly where they are and who they're with. Do I think it has the potential to be addictive, etc.? Yes. But, honestly, I think it's also just a "fad" that will, like so many other things, eventually fade away and I'm willing to wait it out.

And while I'm neutral on it as a college major I know that would finally be one that my son would: a) love to major in and b)be one in which he would finally achieve his academic potential!

By Kissy (Kissy) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit

My experiences and observations are similar to Fredo's. For about the last year and a half, our pool table has been transformed into a poker table. Games are played almost daily and we parents have limited the buy in, also. I think that Steve Lipscomb's mastery of televising poker has definitely fueled the fire of interest in the game. Eventually, the high schoolers' interest in poker will go by the way of Pokemon, pogs, and the like.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Poker has become hot with my soon to be 15 year old and his friends. He is actually itching to get to a friends this afternoon for a game. They do gamble for money but they seem to be in the under 20 range. Interestingly it is something that he is very good at. He is dyslexic and ADD but has always been good at games like checkers and backgammon. Something about being able to visualize the whole board. I think it helps in in poker. Their game of choice is Texas Hold Um.
I just hope he doesn't let his success go to his head as gambling is no way to earn a living.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit

One thing that I like about this forum is learning about what is happening in all different communities out there! We here in VT must be the backwoods as we must get these trends years after! I have not heard of kids playing poker here and you guys are all saying it is rampant in your kids' peer groups. I just asked my daughter who got home from work if kids here play poker. She said no but it was an activity offered at the Project Graduation segment that was a midnight cruise on a lake that had casino style games and she said most did not know how to play. Then she said her coworkers at her summer job (a kids' program teaching tennis, etc. at a resort) are all college students older than herself who go to colleges in VT but are not from Vermont, play. But I do not know of kids in high school playing poker here. I recall one of my brothers liking to do it in high school way back in the 70s.

Now, POGS we did have! (My oldest once dressed as a Pog for Halloween, a costume I made...but I regress!)

Susan

By Idiias (Idiias) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:15 pm: Edit

I think it's interesting...I'm a summer intern at the largest slot machine company in the world and most of the execs, besides driving nice cars, are computer science majors and some business.

By Alongfortheride (Alongfortheride) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Susan, you're not the only one out of the loop. CC is the first place that I had heard of this new craze. I do have an aunt that plays high stakes poker\. Nerves of steel. I just don't have the constitution for it.

I do have a question for the players and their parents. When they're learning the nuances of the game, how much do they lose before they start to win? I just think about the learning curve on the expensive video games at the arcades.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Alongfortheride- I have not know many of the details of son's poker games he uses his own money. We have told him not to bring more then he is comfortable losing. Sometimes they are all broke and play with a big bag of cheap jelly beans.
While driving him to his friends today I asked him for a few details. To play they each have to ante up $15.00. Each is given the same ammount of chips. YOu stay in the game as long as you have chips. They play till all but one player is out of chips. The last remaining player takes home all the cash.
He started out the summer with about 40 bucks and seems to have plenty of cash so I know he wins quite often. He also came home one day sporting a fake rolex that he had won in a game.
My D who is 17 says she doesn't know of any females who play.

By Mtmommy (Mtmommy) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Well, we live between three reservations with large casinos. Many of the athletic and math teachers at the high school are gamblers, talk about it at school frequently, give gambling math problems, and even frequent casinos with 18 year old athletes. The casinos send chefs with their name on the hats into the middle schools to teach cooking to children. The governor of CA is aiming to get some money for the state budget from the reservations in exchange for allowing even more gambling to take place. High school kids are getting addicted--and the pace at which they get addicted is much faster than with alcohol and drugs. Gambling additions are just as deadly and more difficult to deal with. Just wait and see how bad it's going to get in our society. I'm an optimistic person, but on this one topic I see a big storm coming.

By Dstark (Dstark) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:30 pm: Edit

My daughter plays.
There are definitely going to be problems.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Wow, I had no idea kids were into this! I got to get out more, just kidding.

Seriously, I see this as a problem...a first step to a bigger issue. Not sure why I have not heard of it (cause kids aren't playing here I guess) but CC is an education for me. In these parts, um, there is cow chip bingo and that's about it...lol.

Susan

By Songman (Songman) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 11:51 am: Edit

All this poker playing, is it possible that it is due to the effect of the celebrity poker game that is on TV?

By Dostoyevsky (Dostoyevsky) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:24 pm: Edit

this forum is great....I'll add some perspective from my community: I have played probably 3/4 of all the summer days...the crazy thing is, I am probably the least active player in my little (or not so little) group....when we have poker tourneys, we NEVER have a problem getting 20 kids over someones house (even if we start calling people and hour before)....but then again, I live in a predominantly jewish (im jewish but not rich) and indian community (most adults are rich doctors, lawyers, or professional atheletes)....although we do have games when people lose over 100 bucks in one night, most of the time its a 10 dollar buy-in for about 24 people (a 240 dollar pot between two people is not bad at all)...i think that texax hold 'em will only proliferate further into the high school and college scenes in the near future....just take a look at the ratings that the world series of poker recieves (forget about celebrity stuff)....o well, thats my rant, if you guys want perspective from someone who plays, let me know

By Bern700 (Bern700) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Songman: I think it has a lot to do with the increased amount of poker shown on tv (celebrity, ESPN, etc.). My friends and I have been holding a monthly game for the past 5 years (started before the craze). From what I have noticed it started when ESPN (and ESPN-2) increased the amount of Texas Hold'em tournaments it showed. A ton of kids started playing Texas Hold'em in my h.s. as well as many other schools in my area. Then came the celebrity poker effect. After that started an even greater amount of people started playing.

My friends and I play for fun and just as a time to get together at least once a month. We all have really hard schedules and many times we can't get together as often as we want so we started this as a way to just have fun, gamble, and the shoot the ••••. We don't gamble very much $20 which we figure would be a night's worth of dinner and a movie but once a year we have a large No Limit game just to make things interesting and have fun.

By Songman (Songman) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Another Quote from the article:

"The National Council on Problem Gambling notes that campus gambling isn't new: 4.5 million of the nation's 15.3 million college students will gamble on sports this year"

By Songman (Songman) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Thanks Bern- I am out of it, I rarely watch TV...yet pay over $50.00 a month for the box. Really smart financial planning huh?

By Dstark (Dstark) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:49 pm: Edit

A great book..."Positively Fifth Street". It is about the year 2000 world championships, Las Vegas, and a murder.
When the book was written, there were 60 million poker players in the US.
Must be more now.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Songman, don't worry, I barely watch TV either other than news, nor do my kids. I did not even know poker was on TV! As I have mentioned, I do not know of any kids who play it either!
Susan

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 02:57 pm: Edit

My parents would never let me into their Saturday night pinochle game although my mother taught all of us how to play gin rummy. Our family game was Cassino. My wife does not like to play cards, so we don't play much in our house. However, I taught our son, who taught his cousins.

I hope my son learns to play poker better than I have.

By Cruella (Cruella) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 01:07 am: Edit

My son also plays Texas Hold 'em on a regular basis. His friends all play with chips, not money, so it's just a mater of who won the most chips. We bought our son a nice set of casino quality chips for his 18th birthday a couple of days ago, that way when he hosts a game he'll have chips.

I see it as harmless. I know when I was in college we played cards so much we gave our games course numbers and met every day. There was always a game going, the players just changed depending on the time of day. We never played for money, just points. It was a good way to waste time in between classes or just to take a break.

By Bookworm (Bookworm) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 08:10 am: Edit

S's friends over last night, & they were discussing how poker & Japanese movies have become their choice of evening activities, when before this summer, they played board games. I thought it started with the MIT kids going to Las Vegas and winning big, plus the TV show. Oh well, at least, he will be prepared for college.
Poker was big YEARS ago when I went to grad school, and after one sad night, I switched to the bridge crowd.

By Dmd77 (Dmd77) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 10:55 am: Edit

Bill Gates was notorious as a successful poker player when he was at Harvard. (I was at MIT at the same time, and remember hearing about him from friends at Harvard.) Poker has LONG been popular on campuses. And card-counting for blackjack was taught at MIT in most of the frats--as was lockpicking. It was just another essential skill...

And at the University of Nevada Las Vegas, there's a gambling research center: http://gaming.unlv.edu/

By Dstark (Dstark) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 11:59 am: Edit

Richard Nixon financed his first political campaign with his poker winnings.