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As the mother of a daughter waiting to hear, regular decision, from Amherst, Reed, Swarthmore, and Haverford, I am wondering if the term "reach school" might need to be clarified a little.

My daughter has already been accepted into and offered academic scholarships at two Maryland state schools-- her safety schools-- but because her "stats" matched well with what is expected at all four of the above private schools, I don't think she looked at all of them to be necessarily in the category of a "reach".

I am feeling like I let her down because I didn't know enough at the time she was applying to realize that the sheer NUMBER of applicants makes her acceptance unlikely to most or all of those four schools. I think a reach school is NOT just a school where you may not be one of the top candidates, but ANY school that has WAY more qualified candidates than can be accepted.

I am SO hoping that the mail the next few days will prove my fears to be wrong. This is a far more stressful process than I ever imagined. Once the applications were completed and the financial aid information submitted, I thought it was time to relax. But now that it is the end of March, I have not felt this much anxiety since waiting, many years ago, for results of amniocentesis to assure me that my baby was normal and healthy. This is NOT fun!

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

I do agree with you, M-mom! .

I would like to suggest that the sites online that allow you to plug in stats and then deem a school a "good match' be treated with caution; according to them my daughter only had one reach shool! With the numbers applying to all the schools to which she applied I think, as you do, that nearly all should have been deemed "reach" schools.

We just weren't thinking that way a couple of weeks ago.

We left the majority of the work up to our daughter, and I'm not sure she checked up on things like number of applicants. I don't entirely regret leaving it in her hands since she is a person who is quite independent. I do wish, though, that I'd done a *little* bit more homework for her, just so we could have been more savvy.

Hindsight.

I'd like to say we'll be wiser with our last, but he's only in 8th grade and I'm sure things will change yet again between now and the time he applies.

By Marylandmom (Marylandmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Hautbois writes: "I would like to suggest that the sites online that allow you to plug in stats and then deem a school a 'good match' be treated with caution; according to them my daughter only had one reach school!"

Those sites are exactly what my daughter used. She may be a "good match" for Swarthmore, Reed, and Haverford, but that doesn't mean they are going to invite her to come!

Our next child and youngest is only in the fifth grade, so, like you, I will be wiser next time, though there may indeed be a new set of rules to learn by then.

I do wish that my daughter's school counselors might have been on the ball enough to have advised her that a school that is a "good match" can still be a "reach", and a long one at that.

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 01:37 pm: Edit

I was actually thinking of offering up my services to our high school in a few years. Once I get used to having one child in the house, and IF my schedule lightens up as I suppose it will (the arts are slowing down in our area and I'm not getting as much work) I would love to assist students at the school. Our high school is large and it's a public one, so the guidance counselor really can't do all that she maybe should be doing. Not her fault; too many students for her to handle!

By Kmom (Kmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Finally a thread that reflects my current panicky state of mind! This has been an incredibly stressful week. I thought we had done everything right - picked a safety, 2 stretches and 3 reasonable possibilities, after a great deal of research, visits, and consulations with guidance consultations. Fortunately my son was accepted at his safety school - he was rejected at the 2 stretches (not unexpected), but also at 2 of what we thought were reasonable possibilities. There is one more pending - and I'm not holding out much hope at this point. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one feeling similarly stunned!
For the record, my son is not a great student, and we didn't apply to the top schools - but really thought we had done our homework. You can bet I'll be doing it differently with my 2 younger kids!

By Marylandmom (Marylandmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Kmom writes: "Finally a thread that reflects my current panicky state of mind! This has been an incredibly stressful week."

Kmom, I am right there with you! I can't remember a week as stressful as this one, and we haven't even heard from the four non-safety schools yet. There is so much emotion involved with something like this. The possibility that rejection will greet my child at this final stage of childhood just gives me chills. There has GOT to be a better way!

I will say that I appear to be more jittery and concerned at this point than my daughter, but I don't think she has really thought about how she will deal with it if all four private schools reject her.

Kmom, how does your son feel about the safety school to which he was accepted?

By Wadad (Wadad) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 03:04 pm: Edit

When you are looking at schools with acceptance rates below 30% (Amherst, Williams & Swarthmore are probably below 25%), I think they are reaches for anyone who does not have both very strong academics AND some very impressive achievement.

Reed's acceptance rate is quite a bit higher than AWS, but my perception is that they are pretty careful about matching the applicant with the school. If the application makes a good case that the student would fit in at Reed, and the academic qualifications fit their profile, you may have a better shot there.

Just my $0.02

By Kmom (Kmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 03:49 pm: Edit

M-mom -
My son seems OK with the safety school after the disappointment of the rejections ; we had just assumed that he would have some choices to make. It is an important life lesson for him - we had told him all along that he would have more options if he had worked harder. But as I said before, I still thought we had chosen within his range. This was the feedback from his guidance counselor. Those rejection letters were very tough.
The main issue at this point for us now is location and the logistics of travel - the safety school is in Florida, which was, at the time, kind of a "why not?" as we figured he'd have other choices. The rest of his schools were in the Northeast.
I know I will counsel my younger kids to choose their safety schools more carefully - and to apply to more than one safety.
I hope your daughter has a happier experience. I keep trying to be philosophical and tell myself it will all work out as it is meant to - it will be what it will be. That's easier at some times than others!

By Marylandmom (Marylandmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Wadad, I have heard that Reed has a record number of applications this year, so they too may not be accepting much more than 25%. The waiting is so hard, especially knowing that the decisions have already been made-- WE just don't know them yet!

Kmom, I am trying extremely hard to get into the mind set that it will all work out for the best. I do know that there will most likely be wonderful people and experiences that come into my daughter's life these next four years, and if another road had been the one that happened to open, then those would be missed. And you are right, the ability to be philosophical is not always easy when it would be most useful-- like now!

My daughter DOES have an excellent academic record, and it just feels like rejection by her schools of choice might feel like a slap in the face at the end of a long, hard, journey!

Now I'm even second guessing choices she made-- like taking a slightly lighter load as a senior. (I understand that AP Psychology might be viewed as a "lite AP" course by the "elite" schools. Will the schools slight her because of that, or will the AP chemistry and 2nd year calculus cancel out any negative impression of this "lite" course?)

Or perhaps she was rejected from the very first glance if someone didn't like her essay. The POWERLESS I feel is really getting to me....

By Kalitiha (Kalitiha) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 04:50 pm: Edit

A reach school is one where the statistics are a little bit higher than yours. But, you think, I've worked very hard throughout school, I'm involved, I care about my school, my test scores are very good, I have national awards, I'm among the top 1% of students in the nation, I can get into this school. The reach school is where you will not get in.

A good match school is where your stats are at the average or above the school's averages. You have the same credentials as above, you are sure that you will get in no matter what. You will not get into this school either.

A safety school is one where you can get in no matter what. You are an outstanding applicant, this school would be lucky to have you go. Be grateful that this school has deigned to accept you.

By Marylandmom (Marylandmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Kalitiha writes: "A good match school is where your stats are at the average or above the school's averages. You have the same credentials as above, you are sure that you will get in no matter what. You will not get into this school either."

LOL Probably the student WILL NOT in many cases, but the REASON, as I understand it, is because the schools have many more applicants than they can accept who DO meet their criteria. It's like, there are three chocolate chip cookies on the plate and a cookie is what I want. But I only need one cookie, so I pick up one and eat it. Two aren't picked, but not because of anything about those two cookies, only because I needed just one, not three.

Kalitiha continues, "A safety school is one where you can get in no matter what. You are an outstanding applicant, this school would be lucky to have you go. Be grateful that this school has deigned to accept you."

Why grateful? They have a service, I have a need. Unless they are offering me a free education, there is no favor being done here. Is your tongue in your cheek, or do you really feel this way?

By Leebob (Leebob) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

I don't know if this applies, but in my opinion I consider a "reach" school as any school where less than 1 in 5 applicants get accepted. It becomes a crap-shoot.

I bet a whole lot of applicants with SATs of 1500-1600, 4.0 GPA, and ECs that are Nobel Prize material won't get their 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd choice because they are competing among a similar group of high achievers.

Throw in athletic scholarships, legacy (oh yeah it's important), and affirmative action, and the odds increase even more.

It's a reality check - and a safety school is anything else, including community college, that you get admitted to.

As far as some of the stats posted on this forum I must say that anyone would be naive to think those stats alone are 100% relative. A kid that gets a 3.4 at one high school may get a 4.0 at another - and vice versa. Or a kid that scores a 1250 on their one and only SAT compared to a kid that started taking the SATs in the 9th grade and after a dozen times has a 1500. As far as ECs, yes I would consider sports - but again a kid who goes to a school with only 400 students could letter in every sport and be the captain as well - but not be able to make the JV squad at a school of 1500 students. Music is a good overall EC, but a kid that is a member of every available club may not mean much compared to a kid who has to / or wants to work - because actual work is just as important as a life experience. But other than a coin toss, something has to used as a determining factor in a "reach" school. Unique experiences, whether voluntary community service, or even travel may tip the scale in their favor. But again, a reach school is one where the odds are stacked against you.

The only other way is a straight-up ranking from a national test like Japan and Korea have - then it's all or nothing on a single test. Now we're talking pressure.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 07:02 pm: Edit

I think KT is definitely TIC.

However, this sad and unnerving thread--remember, I'm a year behind all of you others, worrying early--underscores one depressing fact: high school college counselors (or guidance counselors) often don't know much/any more than you do if you're not talking about State U., U. State, or Your CC.

A question about National Merit first brought me to this site; the on-going wealth of information is what has _kept_ me here. At this point, I _do_ know much more about admissions for out-of-state private schools than D's high schoool college counselors.

M-Mom, you have it right about the chocolate-chip cookies...there are a lot of good ones, more than anyone college can partake, which is why I keep using the phrase "lottery ticket."

Yes, your essays can screw you.

Also, after reading so many threads on this board, I really understand on a gut level what I've read about EC's...a high level is expected, but so many are _so_ predictable--student government, Mock U.N., volunteering in a hospital--and don't reflect a particular passion of the student that shows through. Honest to God, a bagpipe player, a mime, someone who works in a mom-and-pop grocery, or someone worked their butt off tutoring students at the local middle school so that they're prepared for high school...all have a good chance compared to the blah-blah-blah EC's that start looking interchangeable after a while.

Btw, D has too many reaches on her list and not enough "good matches." I say this not from using the calculator at PR's site but my own analysis based on admissions profiles and/or data from Barrons. Her one pure safety is a slam dunk-arooney (long story) but _I_ would be unhappy if she went there. (Four reaches, two-demi reaches, two good fits, two demi-safeties, one safety at the moment).

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Another thing this site has made me realize is that 6th grade isn't too early to start getting a broad brushstroke sense of the interplay between your student's classes...what is a pre-rerequisite for what is a pre-prerequisite for what and how will that look on the high school transcript?...along with how "academic" and "competitive" your student is.

It's sad...some would say "sick," but the rules of the game are what they are until they change.

You all would kill me if I told you how old my daughter was when I made the first conscious decision in terms of what would affect her college choices.

By Roger (Roger) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Marylandmom, the truth is that most guidance counselors have little understanding of elite admissions unless their school consistently has a good number of seniors apply to ultra-selective colleges. Otherwise, the counselors may well be looking at the same stats you are, and drawing the same conclusions you did. At most schools, being in the upper quartile of applicants would make you a sure thing - at Ivies, top LACs, etc., though, being in the upper quartile serves only to keep your application out of the "immediate reject" pile. There have been some good discussions here in the forum about the shortcomings of guidance offices and how to deal with them, but in most cases there is no good answer.

I like your cookie analogy. It's quite apt, and a good way to explain rejection to a highly qualified student.

Good luck to your daughter!

By Kalitiha (Kalitiha) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 08:00 pm: Edit

No, that wasn't "tongue in cheek," that was despair. And a bad day. I've been rejected from 2 schools in as many days. The only school I've gotten into is a state university so far. I figured that my stats were good enough and that I had enough nationally recognized academic awards that I would be okay at most schools except the Ivies. So, I picked 4 safeties, 3 good matches, 1 semi-reach, and 2 reaches. I've been rejected from a safety, which I hoped was just because I was overqualified and the school knew I wouldn't attend unless I didn't get in anywhere else, and I was rejected from my semi-reach. So now I figure that I've been rejected from both ends of the spectrum and that I'm screwed for every school in between. That leaves me with the state university. By the way, I meant "grateful" because if they hadn't let you in you wouldn't have been in anywhere else. But, I'm too damn stubborn and I've worked too damn hard to settle. If I don't get into one of my remaining top schools, I'm going to Greece for a year and then I'm reapplying. I'm going to end up like Incognito, not going to college until I end up with the perfect whatever--for me the perfect college and for him the perfect SAT score.

By Lovewriting (Lovewriting) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Kalitiha,

I am sorry you are having a tough time. I am with my brother in his college process and I know how it can be. He was sure he could get into Cal Poly, he was rejected from there. He was rejected from Cal Tech. Accepted at San Diego State and UC Santa Barbara. Waiting impatiently for word from UCLA, UC San Diego, and UC Irvine. Honestly, I pray to God he gets into UCLA or UC San Diego. I don't think his spirit can take much more. He's also been very temperamental. I think it's disgusting how long colleges leave youth hanging around, putting their lives on hold, waiting for the answer.

UC Irvine did send my brother a letter saying they were preparing him a financial aid offer...which sounds like an acceptance...but I do not believe he wants to go there. He was too scared to apply to Berkeley and is now kicking himself. Anyway, I just wanted to share that I know how you feel. I went through this too seven years ago. You're doing the smart thing, by not settling.

Have you considered after going to Greece, taking summer or extension courses at one of your dream schools? A book I read recently said a recommendation from a prof at a dream school can really work wonders. I think most schools still will consider you a freshman unless you've done 12 credits or been out of school 4 years, check with them. It might be a good back door in, and the study abroad will only make you a stronger applicant to them...especially since some people unfortunately flunk out or drop out first year.

Good luck to you!

By Marylandmom (Marylandmom) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Kalitiha writes: "No, that wasn't 'tongue in cheek,' that was despair. And a bad day. I've been rejected from 2 schools in as many days."

Oops. NOW your comments make sense. But, it looks like there are three "good matches" left in the running for you.

My daughter is sure one of her good matches will come through, and claims she can be happy at the state school if they don't.

By Pisces (Pisces) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Kalitiha- if you dont mind saying, what schools have you been rejected from and where are you still waiting from?
Try not to stress about it too much. I think you said you applied to Midd and they will LOVE your environmentally based ECs. (i actually shouldnt be giving advice on stressing, i'll be hearing from all my schools in the next week and a half, so i'm a wreck) Good luck!

By Kalitiha (Kalitiha) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:46 pm: Edit

Pisces--I don't want to take over Marylandmom's thread, but I was rejected at Wellesley and Dickinson. Schools remaining: Yale, Dartmouth, Smith, Mount Holyoke, Vassar, Middlebury, Grinnell....the only schools I'm holding out hope on are Vassar, Mount Holyoke, and Middlebury. That will be really crushing though because I've worked so hard and so long for Yale or Dartmouth.

Actually, I wanted to talk to you about Middlebury's dorms. Why don't you post on my "How to Decorate a Dorm Room" thread on College Life forum?

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 03:05 pm: Edit

I agree with the chocolate chip cookie analogy, but want to acknowledge that I still think the results are "crummy." The remaining two "smart cookies" never the less feel isolated, unwanted, and abandoned--and unfortunately their spirits are "devoured" along with their dreams by rejection letters. The letters, despite saying they have had record numbers of qualified applicants, still tacitly scream, "you're not good enough!" to the vulnerable hearts reading the letters. One college, even went so far as to recommend other "back of beyond" colleges in the Associated Colleges of the Midwest who may still be accepting qualified students where the applicant may be able to successfully matriculate--colleges which have none of the name recognition,or strenghth of programming. Daughter thinks all rejection letters should at the very least contain a signature, not be cold, impersonal, and computer generated. Lessons being learned are that hard work doesn't always net the desired result.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 01:39 pm: Edit

My daughter applied to 4 public schools ( 3 instate) and one private, which was definitely a reach for her with higher grades and scores. She is now a sophomore at her first choice school Reed College and doing very well.

I think one thing that helped her was that she had taken a year after high school to volunteer with Americorps. This not only gave her another year to mature and think about what she wanted in a school, but also money for college.
(It's a scandal the way the current administration pushed expansion of this program in the media only to dramatically cut funding at the same time)
She also had a fairly successful alum interview, which may or may not have helped.

Reed is recieving an increase in applications however, which may be due in part to some college guides extolling it's virtues.
If you like Reed I would also suggest St. Johns, possibly Evergreen ( which was my daughters first choice originally)
and certainly the schools covered in Loren Popes books and Harvard Schmarvard which just was published last month

By Tdli (Tdli) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 07:50 pm: Edit

I definitely agree with Leebob, a national one-shot standardized test like in foreign nations is the only fair way to go. Right now, nothing is fair in college admissions. NOTHING IS LOGICAL! People can get in simply because their a certain religion, race, born to certain parents, from a certain state or country or they have anorexia! It seems like colleges are no longer interested in merit or fairness, only in engaging each other in a competition of who can get more "diverse." Many students in my school seem more interested in hasseling the teacher for grades, not in actually learning the material. This is total BS!! There should be like a 9 hr national exam that will test EVERYTHING students have learned in their life. The test should be hard to really seperate the men from the boys. Every college would have their own cutoffs.

By Dadster (Dadster) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 08:46 pm: Edit

That might make for a rather boring student body, Tdli. Understand that academics are just one facet of life - the top schools want student that demonstrate leadership, perserverance, unselfish service to others, athletic prowess, artistic brilliance, etc. (Not all in the same kid, of course!)

The philosophy of elite college admissions in this country is quite different than that of others, but it seems to produce a highly sought-after environment.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 07:20 pm: Edit

I agree Dadster, my daughters grades and scores were a good deal below the top school where she ended up, with a hefty financial aid package to boot.
However, she was first generation college, she had written an essay about having learning disabilities and ADD that was fantastic, she had volunteered regularly since she was 12 ( selfish motivation- with the horses at the zoo), she had taken a year off after high school to volunteer with public school with a high number of homeless kids, and had great recs from teachers that were nationally recognized in their own right.
THis school was definitely a reach school, the only one she applied to, and it was little scary for her to decide between her reach school that she had just become interested in, in the past few months, or to the school that was not as tough academically, but where she knew she would fit in, that it wouldn't kill us financially to go there, and where she had thought she would go for years.

On these boards, reading about students with top scores, top grades, stellar ECs, charming personalities, not getting into any schools, that seem reasonable for them, let alone their reach schools is hard to fathom, but I hope they realize that they are far from alone, and that some of these schools, get so many applicants , any of whom could thrive there, it is really a crap shoot who is admitted.

By Jawharpist (Jawharpist) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Thank you - All of you!
I've spent the past week toiling over my daughter's future - she's in 10 grade. You've answered a lot of questions about what constitutes a "reach" - we'll be reviewing our list tonight. :-)