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I have an 8th grade son set to enter High School in the fall. He excells in Math and has taken Honors Algebra I and Geometry in Middle School. He has top grades in both classes. However, as we look forward to HS, teachers are talking about AP courses in many areas starting as early as sophomore year.
I am somewhat bewildered by the push to take college courses in High School and High School courses in Middle School. Shouldn't one relax a bit and enjoy High School instead of rushing to take college courses? Or is this short sighted?
I know that high schools both public and private use the statistics on how many kids take AP classes and pass the tests as PR for their schools. I want the best experience for my son, not the best PR for the school.
Obviously the fact that I am on this forum indicates that I want to be certain my son is adequately prepared when it comes time to enter college, but I do not want him to be so focused on the right college that he misses many HS experiences.
Any thoughts on the push for AP courses will be welcome. Should one take AP courses in the field in which he is most interested or in a field he would rather get overwith in HS and not have to deal with in college?
My son has high A's in all his Middle School classes and tests well.
Thanks you for your opinions.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 08:33 am: Edit

There is much controversy over AP courses. In my area, some very prestigious private schools have eliminated them entirely. The reason they give is that the AP courses are not really college courses; they are merely high level high school courses pushed by the collegeboard so they can make money by administering AP tests. (Many of the most competitive colleges do not give college credit for AP courses, but most allow students to skip introductory courses if they do well on the AP exam.) I think the schools that have eliminated AP courses are onto something here. However, if a high school does offer AP courses, good students might want to take APs simply because all the other good students will be taking them, and the atmosphere might be more stimulating than in the other classes. It sounds like your son is a good student, so I'm sure he would want the most intellectually stimulating courses his school has to offer. Think of APs as honors classes, not as college courses.

By Chrisd (Chrisd) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:04 am: Edit

I'd agree with the above poster. And, listen to what others say about the particular classes/teachers at your son's school. A lousy teacher will be a lousy teacher in AP or regular classes, and the AP designation probably isn't worth a year with a bad teacher. My daughter started taking AP classes her soph. year, and it was not a problem. I'd hate to see our high school drop AP courses, as the school doesn't offer much else to challenge determined students.

By Drusba (Drusba) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:51 am: Edit

If your child is now entering high school and you perceive all this pressure about honors and AP courses and the push to prepare to take multiple exams for college admissions and wonder how this madness ever started, then you are just like most of us parents. A perception has been created, with the help of such organizations as the College Board which makes huge amounts money off of AP, SAT and other tests, that a student will somehow be a failure in life unless he or she takes all those AP courses, gets A's in all the courses, scores 1600 on the SAT and 800's on the Sat II's and goes to Harvard, Princeton or Yale. The bigger problem is that far too many universities lend credence to this facade by awarding the College Board in its efforts to make billions by actually adopting the concept that all those AP courses and test scores are the true meaning of life when it comes to admission decisions and scholarships. That of course leads high schools to push the same system and then brag about it.

There are two ways you can handle this. You can become a believer, push your son to the brink of madness by insisting he take all AP and honor courses, and then scoff at him when he fails to ace them all, while you worry yourself to death that he might not get admitted to HYP and therefore be relegated to the ignominy of going to a school that does not appear in the top 25 of the US News & World Report list of best colleges, with the clear result that he will ultimately end up homeless and broke. Or, you can decide, correctly, that HYP is not nirvana, that really what your son should do is take the college prep program that best fits his abilities and desires but at that same time does not result in overdose and the end of any resaonable social life. In other words, if there is an AP course in an area he really likes and is really good at then perhaps he should give it a try. If there are honors courses and you and he feel he actually has the ability and desire he can also consider those. But do your best to find a balance. For example, mine, who is a junior, has progressed through honors classes in science and math and will be taking two AP's next year by her own choice. At the same time she has taken regular college prep courses in English, language and social sciences because she does not do that well at those and has somewhat of a dislike for all of them. I have avoided as much as possible ever insisting that she take honors or AP. Though she does study quite a bit, she still has plenty of time for social activities.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 10:05 am: Edit

Enjoy HS? Theoretically, yes. Sadly, not as much
as they should.

I think some of the pressures--and AP classes are part of that--are ridiculous. College is in many ways easier psychologically than high school where a student has so little control over use of his or her own time that they barely have time to fart without checking their schedules.

Yet, my daughter and I have talked about, the rules of the game are what they are and until the rules evolve, you play them as they are. Any adult ever had an unfair employer?

As for AP courses, my daughter likes them because she's less bored in them than in the regular Prep courses; it's as NYmom said, the environment is a lot more stimulating.

Daughter did have one AP History teacher who wasn't up to snuff...he had never taught AP before and his main love was coaching the water polo team. At Back-to-School night, half his bulletin board was filled with photos of the team and half his talk about his background was as coach. He also made a remark to the effect of, "Wow...I'm surprised to see all these parents here, normally there are just 4-5 sitting in the back of the room."

He didn't Get It that both students in AP classes and their parents tend to be much more engaged and demanding. Not liking the teacher isn't a valid reason for changing classes but at the semester break my daughter had to change her schedule because of a music class being shifted and got a new History teacher as part of the process.

By Texas137 (Texas137) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit

I agree with the poster who said "think of AP classes as honors courses" - that's where the smartest kids tend to be, and polo-coaches notwithstanding, that's generally where the best teachers tend to be. So there's a better chance at a good class experience with more stimulating discussion. Matbe some AP classes take more time overall than their regular counterparts, but hopefully less of it is spent on Mickey Mouse busy work.

By Microcephalic (Microcephalic) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit

It is also beneficial to remember that what you do in High School is not the end-all judge of your future.

Many individuals in prestigeous jobs -- engineering, medicine, etc... -- did not necessarily complete the most rigorous high school programs availiable. A doctor I know, for example, who recently finished his residency, graduated high school with a 3.0-3.2ish GPA, an average S.A.T score, and *zero* AP/IB courses. My father, who is also a doctor, was the opposite -- he graduated at the top of his class, attended a prestigeous university, was accepted into an "accelerated" pre-med program, etc... You know what? His greatest wish in life is to go back and do it all over again -- thus, that he had enjoyed his childhood more.

Both men are equal -- they are both fantastic doctors. Their educational histories are meaningless.

Don't believe the hype. You can still have a great future without succumbing to the lure presented by the people who post here, and of course the College Board. Encourage your child to succeed, but realize that he or she is a child -- they should be enjoying themselves and learning at the same time. Education should be a balance; extremes to either fun/slacking or sheer education are not necessarily healthy. There will always be a time to turn to the books, and find a successful niche in life.

Of course, if being the best is the child's whim for satisfaction, then it should certainly be promoted. But, in my eyes, it should only be the child's choice. Parents should encourage balance in the life of their children. For in the end, that's all that really matters.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:05 am: Edit

Our experience with AP and honors classes has been great. The classes are a little smaller and the teachers all the best in our smallish school. My kids have enjoyed the almost guaranteed company of most of their best friends, since they are all in the accelerated classes - and yes, this still seems to matter in high school. My oldest, a senior, has never had much of a problem with the workload. His AP English scores have exempted him from English requirements in college, which should be a huge timesaver his first year in Engineering. It has been a positive experience for our family, but may present different problems in a very large school.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:31 am: Edit

"HYP is not nirvana." Exactly. If you get in, great. It's worth a great deal of effort but not so much that a student is always on the edge of collapse. I'd be a lot happier if my daughter could get one more hour of sleep every night but a lot of that is due to her EC, which really is a passion.

Mo2, G's school consciously makes sure that the "best" teachers teach all level of courses. Thus you can figure that the "best" teacher won't have as many AP classes as one of the lesser teachers. Fortunately, many of the teachers are pretty good and some sections are so small--two classes--that one teacher does teach both, e.g., AP Calculus.
But AP English is a crap shoot. Five teachers teach it and I'm trying to figure out if there's anyway I can set things up so that G gets one particular teacher who is outstanding at teaching writing.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Agree with NYmom that AP is a misnomer. There is more to memorize than in hs courses, and the fact that admissions is selective makes the class better in our current age of heterogeneous grouping. However, no way is knowledge approached in the sophisticated way it is in college. Son in college now says to me, "NOW I get what you mean about writing papers! You were always telling me a paper should have a unique thesis! All my hs teachers wanted was a statement with proof. Here it's so different." I hear that the international baccalaureate is supposed to be more of a "thinking" program. I hope so.

By Puzzled (Puzzled) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Your perspectives have been very useful, both to me and my son. Thank you for taking the time to help us.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Dear Puzzled,
IMHO, your child should take classes at or beyond their "comfort level," my daughter's first principal strongly believed in giving all of her students "the gift of struggle." AP classes generally are more challenging, accelerated, and require more outside prep time than normal or even honors courses. I've always encouraged my daughter when faced with the choice of an "A" or a better educational opportunity to go for the latter-it'll stand her in better stead throughout life. Major difference in AP courses is the absence of "plug and chug" formulaic drivel, and more critical thinking exercises, lots more writing, and the occasional perk of really interesting speakers. What I wouldn't have given for AP back when I was in school!
Downside, if you overload your schedule your social life can suffer. (One student we know who's at a private school says they have a name for any student taking more than 2 AP courses: suicidal.) Not so at my daughter's Academy, they are avidly pursuing a record 23 National AP Scholar Designations. Given the requirements for 8 AP Exams with an average score of 4, this will be just over twice what they've previously had in a dozen years of participation. My daughter euphemistically calls it "friendly rivalry" and she's deep in the fray. Stakes are high, they had 8 the year she started as an eighth grader and the class of 2003 wants bragging rights to last for at least a couple of years. In reality each class sets their heights higher than their predecessor. 3 of the 4 Iowa National scholars at the Junior class level have come out of her school. In a global economy, these kids have to measure up against whatever is out there. Inquire at colleges to see what they look for and expect as competitive, Drake University thinks 5 AP's are sufficient, and they'll give CREDIT for all taken with the exception of a limit of 6 total for English. We were really bummed to find that all the work didn't equate to actual credit everywhere. CLEP or Dantes are better for that. Hope this was some help. P.S. regarding the thedad's comment regarding personal use of time by highschoolers...it only counts if someone is there to smell it! Make certain your kid has a support group, overburdening their schedule can leave them feeling isolated. You may find you have to plan time to relax.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Dear Puzzled,
IMHO, your child should take classes at or beyond their "comfort level," my daughter's first principal strongly believed in giving all of her students "the gift of struggle." AP classes generally are more challenging, accelerated, and require more outside prep time than normal or even honors courses. I've always encouraged my daughter when faced with the choice of an "A" or a better educational opportunity to go for the latter-it'll stand her in better stead throughout life. Major difference in AP courses is the absence of "plug and chug" formulaic drivel, and more critical thinking exercises, lots more writing, and the occasional perk of really interesting speakers. What I wouldn't have given for AP back when I was in school!
Downside, if you overload your schedule your social life can suffer. (One student we know who's at a private school says they have a name for any student taking more than 2 AP courses: suicidal.) Not so at my daughter's Academy, they are avidly pursuing a record 23 National AP Scholar Designations. Given the requirements for 8 AP Exams with an average score of 4, this will be just over twice what they've previously had in a dozen years of participation. My daughter euphemistically calls it "friendly rivalry" and she's deep in the fray. Stakes are high, they had 8 the year she started as an eighth grader and the class of 2003 wants bragging rights to last for at least a couple of years. In reality each class sets their heights higher than their predecessor. 3 of the 4 Iowa National scholars at the Junior class level have come out of her school. In a global economy, these kids have to measure up against whatever is out there. Inquire at colleges to see what they look for and expect as competitive, Drake University thinks 5 AP's are sufficient, and they'll give CREDIT for all taken with the exception of a limit of 6 total for English. We were really bummed to find that all the work didn't equate to actual credit everywhere. CLEP or Dantes are better for that. Hope this was some help. P.S. regarding the thedad's comment regarding personal use of time by highschoolers...it only counts if someone is there to smell it! Make certain your kid has a support group, overburdening their schedule can leave them feeling isolated. You may find you have to plan time to relax.

By Woninil (Woninil) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Unless you are determined to go Ivy, all the advanced sudy is most likely unnecessary. My son did not have any interest in the Ivies and I was fine with the prospect of lesser tuition.

He has decent but not stellar ACTs and never even took the SAT(gasp)He took the ACT cold(no prep classes or studying). He took AP math one year which amounted to 'more homework'-at any given time the APtrig class was on the exact same page as the regular trig class-no, they did not delve deeper-they just had more busy work. Be sure you know what you are getting into-sometimes these classes are provided because parents insist they exist-the school may be clueless or inadequately staffed.

He did serve as a tech cadet(assisting the systems administrator)which counted for hs credit so freshman soccer was his only true ec.

He was accepted into HIS top choice college, University of IL, U-C(engineering)

My only regret is all the worrying Ive done thinking he would end up in junior college because he was noAP, noEC, noSAT, and not perfect!

He has had plenty of free time during high school-rarely has homework. He has worked after school jobs the past two years which has greatly improved his people skills with ALL types of people(not just other high achieving high school students) He is taking 14 hrs worth of junior college computer courses this year which he has LOVED-I have never seem him happier-this is a kid who truly knows what he wants to do with his life-he has found his passion.

He is teaching himself to play the guitar, creating music videos on the computer, and doing some type of "mod"(computer talk). He also manages to help his computer illiterate parents navigate technology and spends plenty of time harassing his younger brothers. He is perusing recipe sites and makes the occassional ethnic dish for us.

He is a great kid and we are tremendously proud of him!

Its hard not to buy into the 'have to excel' hype that is out there. Try to keep a reasonable perspective and read all posts(inc/mine) with a grain of salt.

He will be gone in a few years and I want to remember the beginning guitar strumming, the botched cheesecake, and the brotherly squabbles. Not the stats!

By Dadster (Dadster) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Autodidact, that's a great school story - peer pressure for positive accomplishment, and an administration that believes in high expectations!

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 10:02 am: Edit

Dear Dadster,

Yes, I realize Central Academy is an extraordinary place--that's why we've made the sacrifices we have to give my daughter the opportunity to attend there. Of course, there is some opposition from the teachers--and sometimes administration-- at the "feeder" schools; they don't like losing/sharing their top students, but some of them are rather like those mentioned above. Their solution was more not better exercises to fill the time of the high ability students who whizzed through the regular assignments and then warmed a seat waiting for a bell to ring to release them. This group has traditionally contained the highest number of helpful souls who proceeded to assist the clueless around them, simplifying the teacher's job--I expect this loss is what they mourn the most. Or it could be the breakup of the little clusters formed for group projects which allowed the teacher to pair strong students with the underachieving, drugged, drunk, or just plain slow students and still ensure that the more capable student (in an effort to preserve their gpa) would do enough work to cover for the dead ass(es) they'd been paired with and guarantee that all students would leave their classroom at the end of the semester or year. This saves the teacher lots of grief, because they won't have to make the extra effort to make referrals they know will make them unpopular with students, parents, and administration alike--or the extra effort to actually reach the underperforming student and make certain they were educated, not just contained for thirteen years prior to be set loose on society--unskilled, uneducated, and unproductive.
The Academy staff GETS IT, and never fails to recognize the part parents, staff (including janitorial,)and students play in creating an environment which encourages students as they're actively engaged in learning. We all proudly share in their success.

By Quink (Quink) on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 07:58 pm: Edit

I agree with the posters who have commented that the primary reason to take AP classes is to maintain one's intellectual edge insofar as possible while in high school. I felt completly stifled academically as a junior in high school, attended St. John's College early admission instead of completing my senior year. Back then there were no AP courses - even in so-called 'honors' classes the pace was slooooow.

My son, on the other hand, has the opportunity to take lots of AP classes, as well as courses at our local CC (very fine institution). Therefore, he has a much better shot at remainining intellectually engaged throughout his high school years. His EC programs of choice (theatre, chorus) are super at his HS - he is so deeply involved in them that he definitely plans to remain through his senior year.

In addition, speaking as a consumer, I think it's 'good business' to rack up as many APs and college credits as the student is motivated to tackle. Credits, guys, credits - the more the better, saves time and tuition, what's not to like?

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