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We plan to visit some schools over spring break for my daughter, a junior. We've never been through the college admissions process before and she plans to apply to ivies. What is the procedure for visiting schools? Should we call up the admissions office and schedule? Should we arrange to stay on campus or at a hotel? I think we'll have the week to visit 3 or 4 schools. Please help, I'm pretty much clueless about this process.

By Dadster (Dadster) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 07:09 pm: Edit

By all means contact the schools to find out where to go, what to do, etc. Most will have scheduled information sessions and tour departures. Some may require an appointment; it's fairly unlikely, IMO, but some might even schedule an interview. It's possible you can arrange for your daughter to spend a night in a dorm, but that depends on the school; that's a great idea if you can manage it. If she spends a night, she'll encounter a lot more students in a natural setting than she would by doing a walking tour. Visiting a class or a department could be useful, too, if your daughter knows what she's interested in.

Since you seem to have ample time, try to make the most of each visit - spend enough time on and around campus to try to soak up the atmosphere. Your daughter should talk to students whenever possible, too.

One other thought - the admissions stats at Ivies are daunting, so consider visiting some non-reach schools, too. (I did the tour thing with my daughter a few years ago, and in retrospect we probably spent too much time on reaches and not enough on ballparks.) To get an idea of the challenge of Ivy (and similar) admissions, read America's Elite Colleges or A is for Admission if you haven't already. Good luck!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Cassatia, welcome to the wonderful zoo. We've visited for the past two Spring breaks and this year it's the biggie, including the three Ivies daughter is interested in. Last year we saw four schools, the year before we stuck our toe in the water with one, grouping by geography, leaving G's most desired area for last.

This year we're seeing six schools in nine days...of course, one day and another half-day are air travel days, and the last day will be frantically packing, grabbing lunch, and doing one or two touristy things before heading to the airport.

Most schools offer both an info session--often, twice a day--and a guided tour on either side of that. The easiest way--and best way to make sure you have up to date info--is to go to each school's website, usually www.nameofcollege.com, click on Admissions, click on Undergraduate (if separate), and then click around and look for information along the lines of Visiting Nameofcollege.

There you can find the tour and info session times and start building your schedule, taking travel time into account.

We've done two schools in a day but I don't recommend it. We're actually doing it again, though, but the saving grace is that Barnard is literally across the street from Columbia.

We've never arranged an overnight visit in the dorms for G but this year she's doing one. Most schools reserve that for seniors only, which is a bummer if your one likely trip is while you're a junior.

Reservations for parents (and student, if not doing a dorm stayover) need to be at a hotel.

In addition to tour and info session, you might want to see about the student dropping in on a class. It appears--though I'm not absolutely certain--that parents should quietly disappear for a cup of coffee during this...it will help the kids if they can present themselves as somewhat independent. Class visiting varies from school to school: Columbia has a sheet of classes open for visiting at the Admissions office. Smith, we checked the on-line course catalog, found a class of interst to G at a time we could accommodate, found the prof's e-mail from the directory, and e-mailed a request to sit in on such and such a date...prof was fine with this.

Our sched is such that we won't be able to sit in at all schools but if it's really necessary and the decision is close, we figure we can make a quick trip back to one/two schools if G gets in.

In addition to sitting in on classes, you might want to make arrangements for special interest
connections. G e-mailed the advanced ballet teacher at Smith and asked to observe the class; she was invited to take it. Haven't heard back from Barnard yet and I have a suspicion this prof may not check her e-mail and we'll have to snail mail a query. Similarly, when e-mailed about the orchestra, the Smith prof extended an invite to get together when we're visiting; some back-and-forth established a mutually convenient time. In contrast, the assistant director of the Columbia orchestra sent some very useful information but didn't extend any invitation to meet. I'm guessing that this is the pattern: small schools will be more accommodating and offer individualized attention, large schools will give standardized responses.

For Columbia, G is stopping in to see the admissions rep for our area...we're nailing down a time by e-mail but now is their real nutso time for reading applications, etc., so it might take a few weeks for a reply...took about a month for the first reply.

Other visits/meetings we just may wing as the opportunity presents itself. G has expressed the notion that she doesn't want to get overscheduled and I think there's fine line here between getting the most of out of a trip and making your kid so tired and cranky that they want to forget about college and just join a convent or monastery.

I've set up multipage trip itinerary in a word processing document.

Front page is info regarding air transport, ground transport, and hotel.

Last page is estimated budget for transport, meals, and tourist stuff.

In between is the day to day itinerary, with the times of all the tours, info sessions, and meeting with profs, along with where we're meeting people.

I think the logistics of the Normandy invasion were simpler.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 07:50 pm: Edit

x-posted. Dadster makes some great points. Definitely have your daughter talk to students, asking what they like and what they don't like about the school.

A IS FOR ADMISSIONS is an outstanding book. I would augment with Princeton Review's THE BEST 345 COLLEGES ...great two-page descriptions with tons of useful information and quotes and, for a little more anecdotal but very eye-opening view of high-end admissions, Jacques Steinberg's THE GATEKEEPERS.

THE ELITE COLLEGES descriptions are stripped down versions of THE BEST 345 but it also has additional insight into the admissions process.

Dadster, we've made the same "mistake": four reaches, one demi-reach, two ballparks, a demi-safety, and a safety. We've decided to live with it. I think G would be okay with any of the schools and I would be okay with any except the safety. In fact, I'm only okay with the demi-safety; all the others I'm downright jazzed about.

Of course, we'll see how opinions change after we see six of them...seven weeks from this week. Aiee!

Oh, Cassatia, it occurs to me that one other important thing is to see the campus when students are around. The first day we saw Georgetown it was dead because it was some mini-school holiday; a much better impression when we came back two days later. Try to have at least one meal on campus.
Read the bulletin boards and eavesdrop shamelessly on conversations.

By Cassatia (Cassatia) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Thanks, your advice has been great. Question: one of my friends talked about scheduling interviews. Is it common to interview on the first visit (ie, should you?) I understand that for reach schools like the ivies, it's important to show interest; but would an interview on the first visit be too much stress/too risky? (I'm pretty sure we can squeeze another in during the summer--if they have interviews during the summer)
Yes, TheDad: Your comment that the logistics of the Normandy invasion were simpler perfectly describes our overwhelmed state of mind right now.

By Dadster (Dadster) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 09:29 pm: Edit

If you can schedule an interview, do so. Our experience was that during the peak spring visit period, the best most schools would do is a group interview or large information session. Showing interest by pushing for an interview is probably less important with the Ivies than with second-tier schools. The Ivies presume you are interested, and look for ED/EA apps and the details in your essays and app info as an expression of your preference. Most will schedule an alum interview if possible.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:13 pm: Edit

I think everyone here has given you top advice. I will throw in my own two cents and experience though I am new at it all like you are but am just one step past where you are. I also have a junior and we began this whole college search process this school year. I am learning along the way. For one thing, I bought several books.....both the type that are college guidebooks with college descriptions for my daughter to peruse, but also a few on the whole college admission stuff, geared to our interests and so forth. Also read the Gatekeepers! Anyway, some of these books have chapters on the college visit process and great advice. There are even books just on that topic. Also reading forums such as this one has added to my knowledge base. Our aim is to have a list of colleges my daughter would like to apply to and then to visit them all in junior year. Next fall will be chockful with the admissions process as it is. Also, by this approach, should she decide to go the ED route if a college becomes her first choice, then that option will be viable if we do this part this year. She also has aimed this year to develop a career focus or interest area which has helped to narrow the college choices down.

One very difficult thing has been how to fit in these college trips!! We actually sat down at the start of her junior year with a calendar to try to find when we could even travel to see these schools. It is quite difficult as she has a very full schedule. Also school vacations are difficult. We are on vacation this week though she has several major ski race events for school during vacation. Our April vacation entails her going to France with her school, so that is out. I do believe it is best to visit colleges when they are in session....so summers are not ideal, and anyway, she goes away for a lot of the summer too. So, we mapped out a few two day type trips. I hear some of you have weeklong trips with many colleges fit into that week and I bet it is tiring but it does get a lot done. So far, we have done these trips this year: over Oct. Teachers Convention, my kids flew to their grandparents in south Jersey and on that trip, my daughter went one day to do a college visit to Princeton with my dad. In Nov., during a long weekend, we went to Boston and visited Tufts and Harvard and also went to Providence to visit Brown. For Martin Luther King day....we traveled to Cornell overnight. Tomorrow we leave for two nights to CT...to visit Yale and Connecticut College, and have a trip in a few weeks to Philly to see Penn and Lehigh. We usually stay in a hotel nearby (all researched on the internet), though this week it so happens my younger daughter who we normally do not take on the college visits, is joining us as her best friend from her theater camp lives near New Haven so she can visit that friend.....both girls are happy, and we are staying with these friends as well.

Anyway, here is what we have done before/during the visits.....and you know, you just have to jump in and begin to put together such a college visit...lotsa arranging!!!! and e mails and phone calls....but you get the hang of it. Start with the college's website. Get as much info. as you can from it and/or you can call admissions. But basically every college usually runs both a campus tour and an information session. We try to do both on our visit...while it may seem basic, I think it is a good place to start to introduce oneself to the university....and also you almost compare apples to apples if you do this at every college visit. Anyway, it would not be good, in my opinion, to JUST do that and move on to the next school. I truly think you need a full day at each school if you can manage it. We also try to visit with a professor in the department my child is interested in....and we find these names out either by visiting the website and getting e mail addresses and phone numbers or just calling the university and asking who to speak to in that area. Most schools have offered to have a professor or even dept. head speak to my daughter so she can learn more about the program. At Brown, one professor came in on a Sat. to meet her! On this trip this week, one dept. head is meeting her and at another school, they do not do that but invited her to come by the dept....will talk with us there, show us around, etc. Also, we have tried contacting sports coaches in sports my daughter is involved in and wishes to continue in college, plus for some schools, this is a club sport (ski racing) and so we have contacted the team captains to tell us more about the programs. The tennis coaches have been nice but many have not been available on campus during our visit but contact has been made and soon my daughter will just mail them more info. But the ski team captains have been meeting with us and it is a chance to not only learn more about that sport activity there but also meet a student at the college who has always been really willing to share. Also, if we know any student either from our own high school or area who attends that college, we call or e mail them and ask if we can meet up, and they are always willing....even if we do not know them that well....and thus we have a way to talk to a student who attends the school. Plus we find that most college tours do not show you inside the dorms and thus the student contact we have, always shows us inside several dorms. If we do not know someone who goes to the college...then sometimes we just stand outside the entrance to some dorms and ask kids who are entering if they do not mind to show us their rooms as prospective students (and they have all been there done that) and they are always willing and we see a lot that way and engage in some casual conversations with students (very important beyond the student tour guide who is a cheerleader of sorts for the college). Sometimes, things fall into place. At Cornell, while visiting the architecture school....we went into the studios, and I encouraged my daughter to just go up to some students and ask them about it and she did and one was so nice that she took us back to her dorm, showed us around it and also chatted a bunch and showed us her portfolio of what she did freshman year...was such a bonus! We also often eat in the cafeterias....just another side of things. Once we saw a musical theater production that night at a college. All of that tends to fill up the day.

Our plan is that if just a couple schools end up standing out as first choices, then next fall, senior year, we can go back for a second visit and do the very valuable overnights that often are offered to just seniors, not juniors, and she can attend some classes as well.

I think it would be rare to get a college interview on campus during junior year. For one thing, your child has not even applied yet. Also, many colleges now in general do not do campus interviews but do alumni interviews in your area (I happen to conduct these interviews myself for a top school and it has been an eye opener over the years and particularly now that I have a daughter going through this process!). What your child can do now, though, is meet with professors and students or coaches, etc...on campus...these contacts are informative and cannot hurt if your child were to connect again the next fall and so forth.

So, dive in....it does involve a lot of arranging and contacting people back and forth to put together a nice full visit. I find I just take one two day / two college visit at a time and put the whole thing together before even thinking of making appts. and such for the next visit.

I am off tomorrow....so this topic is appropo ! Learning as we go......
Susan

By Roger (Roger) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Great posts, everyone. With all modesty, where else can you get great feedback like this?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:49 am: Edit

LOL, Roger.

I would critically comment on one thing Susan said, but I'll back into it.

I'd been curious about this process for years and asked people how it was going, in broad brushstroke, when they had a high school senior. EVERY SINGLE ONE SAID THEY WISH THEY'D STARTED EARLIER. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

I decided to take the advice I was given, which is why the first long list of collges--some 73--was generated by the answers to questions in the front of the Barron's Guide...in G's freshman year. Our first visit was freshman year, just to get the hang of it, starting with a school that at the time was at the bottom of G's top 10, Northwestern. (It's since dropped off the list entirely.)

Junior year is late to be beginning this stuff. For any freshman or middle school parents reading this, it's not too early to start planning now.

Oh...definitely eat where the students do when on your visits.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 08:28 am: Edit

After you narrow down your choices, I would recommend that your child spend a long weekend at the school (sans parents). This way, s/he can sit in on classes on Thursday and Friday, and sample the school's social life on the weekend. The college guidance counselor at my kids' school practically insists on this, particularly for ED applicants. It was tough to fit it into my son's busy schedule, but well worth it. (If your child doesn't know any students at the school, many admissions offices will help arrange a weekend visit.)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 09:50 am: Edit

Good idea, NYm. Thanks for the suggestion.

I had thought that by doing this early we could eliminate senior-year visits. Now, I'm not so sure...I've been getting a growing feeling that
final visits before signing on the dotted line are a good idea. Unfortunately, there is no way for us to do that for an ED school, which is why that's the most important question to be answered from the upcoming trip: Is there any one school that stands out so much for G that she wants to make it ED?
Fortunately, four of the ten actually have EA instead. But Murphy says her E choice would be an ED, doesn't he?

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 09:59 am: Edit

Quick question?? In Sooz's post she mentions contacting and visiting coaches. This caught my eye as that I have several kiddos in varsity sports (football, wrestling, track n field, swim, dive, baseball) and club (USASwim, USADive) and we were cautioned, warned, berated about maintaining NCAA eligibility regarding the contacts. They are limited in number of contacts, type of contact, and years in which they can be contacted. We have to register with the clearinghouse NCAA and then everything is maintained by their current coaches, watchdogs, I guess. DD's dive coach dove and graduated (3 years ago) from Yale, so he is pretty adamant and careful, selective about who she talks to and sees. Same with swim coach, as an Auburn grad (#1 swim school) he is even more protective (unreasonably so in my opinion) about which coaches they can have contact with and blah blah blah. I am not totally familiar with all the regs and policies but I do know when some kids mentioned visiting with them (college coaches) during campus visits coaches' went nuts. And the NCAA does have funky definitions of what constitutes a contact and what doesn't. And who they contact, even if its not the student one-on-one, someone else (parents, coach, teachers) counts as official contact....interviews,phone calls, letters back and forth....I think there as been no decision as far as emails....but some have mentioned that it is changing as well.

So anybody know more about this?

By Nymom (Nymom) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 10:08 am: Edit

I don't want to get too off topic, but for us, ED was a strategic choice, not simply a matter of one school standing out among the others. My feeling is that if your child stands a good chance of getting in RD, you don't need to go the ED route if that would create too much pressure timewise.

By Momof2 (Momof2) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 10:50 am: Edit

Great ideas, everyone. I have one more hint that really helped us, particularly when starting early: take lots of photos of each campus, the departmental buildings of interest, the dorms you visit, the "common areas" where kids hang out. After awhile, my son had trouble keeping the visuals of each campus straight - a lot like new house shopping!

We started college visits during my son's sophomore year. One ridiculous discovery we made was that our school allows only 2 excused college visit days and those only during the senior year -which would pretty much rule out ED, I think! We had to get approval from the principal and then superintendent for earlier visits - seems they thought Sat. visits would be adequate - and this for the only NM Finalist in the school. Oh well...

Thedad: I'll tell you what helped my son narrow down the search by his senior year, at least in music. After the initial visit to each school and a series of emails and some phone calls, he was able to schedule a private lesson with the prospective applied music professor at each school. At two of the schools, he was invited to play with the instrumental ensemble directed by that prof. This helped him to see the teacher in a group setting, judge himself alongside current students and get a good idea of what kind of folks he might be spending time with. It was a wonderful experience and gave him a lot more confidence about not making a blind decision. That said, we are anxiously awaiting notification of engineering awards!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 11:11 am: Edit

KwK, check with the NCAA--some hs coaches are excessively tyrannical control freaks. I follow UCLA football recruiting intently (I would be considered a booster for NCAA purposes, as a season ticket holder) and my understanding is that if the student approaches the school, any contact is okay, but the coach(es) approaching the student is tightly regulated and has verboten periods. The athletic director or recruiting coordinator at a college would also give you straight dope on this...it's not as if they want to create problems for themselves; I'd call them before calling a coach.

NYmom, good thought about ED being a strategic choice. If G's first choice is a non-reach, it makes sense not to spend the ED on that and just let the cards fall RD. I've already noted that
one of her faves, Smith, takes a much smaller percentage of their class ED than other schools do...making RD a reasonable shot there.

Mom02, G's hs doesn't allow _any_ excused college visit days per se. I mean, she'll be readmitted without a detention but there's not a culture of "why don't you do this" or even "it's okay if you do this."

I do not think much of G's college counselors, as opposed to her guidance counselor, who is terrific. There was an 11th-grade parent meeting last night to discuss the college application process and one of them said, "You should start to figure out what colleges you're interested in this summer."

By Nymom (Nymom) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

To the Dad --

Wow, I'm shocked that hs does not excuse for college visits. I should mention that my kids are in private school. The college guidance department is as good as any private consultant, with the added bonus that the colleges will talk to them (colleges generally won't talk to private consultants). I have to say, though, I don't think it's productive to get too serious about picking colleges until the first set of SATs are in (usually midway through the junior year). I'd limit my research until then to online, guide books, and gossip!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Our experiences on the things just brought up in the last few posts.....
as far as missing school....so far we have arranged the college visits on days that school has been closed. My daughter really does not like to miss school....it is just way harder that way. Also, for a few months as it is, she has to miss school periodically for high school ski races and so she does not want to add to that. She has agreed to miss one day in late March for a visit that is seven hours away. I have not heard of any policy at school regarding excuses for college visits. However, we do have an attendance policy and can only miss a certain number of days per marking period and still be allowed to pass the course.

As far as contacting coaches.....I am not totally up on all the rules, etc. I am even a bit confused by stuff I have read as to whether contact can occur during junior year or not. Without any home coach intervention or any rule reading....we simply have been trying to make our college visits productive by meeting in the academic dept. my child is interested in and with any coaches she might want to play a sport with. So, we have called or e mailed a coach prior to a visit simply asking if we can meet him/her to learn more about their program. Almost every coach has called or written back. Several have said they would be out of town on the dates of our visit but encouraged my child to send more info. about herself (which she has been planning to do in the near future anyway......but was just doing this contact now insofar as the visit to campus goes). One or two coaches have chatted with me on the phone call. One or two coaches wrote back and said they were not allowed to contact students until next summer.....it is confusing cause only a few mentioned that issue. So, again, none of this has been any big official thing or recruitment thing or involved our home coaches. Our only contact so far has simply been to ask to chat on a college visit so that we can learn about that facet of the college. But our plan in general to do with sports is to have our child send information about herself to the coach this spring. For one sport, ski racing, several of the schools she has looked at have it just as a club sport, and thus we are meeting with student team captains and that has been a nice plus on the visit. She does hope to look into playing tennis at the colleges she is looking to apply to.

Well off to a two day college visit now....
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Edit

NYmom, the college counseling is one of the things that's an unadulterated plus with private schools. The public school counselors tend to have too-high caseloads and to be underinformed. In G's case, the college counselors are two people who were "reorganized" out of being guidance counselors but couldn't be fired due to tenure. The guidance counselors had been a disaster but are now pretty good.

I expect that one reason that there may be not a great impetus for excused college visits is that so many are "freeway" close...within a 90-120 minute radius you can get from UC Santa Barbara to UC San Diego & Scripps, and out to Pomona, with everything else like UCLA, usc, the Claremont Colleges, etc., being within that radius. The Bay area schools are an hour's plane flight and a quick rental car away...UC Berkeley, Stanford, etc.

California being such a large state has a lot of students going to in-state schools. We're in the distinct minority, looking at mostly out-of-state schools in response to G's preferences. The high school does have a steady trickle going out of state...but that's what it is, and I don't think it's exceptional in that regard. A few more go to nearby out of state schools in Oregon, Washington, and Arizona...it's not like the tradition of having the whole field of New England and/or Mid-Atlantic regions to look at.

Have a good trip, Susan. Looking forward to a trip report upon your return.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit

To the Dad,

Good point about public vs. private. I guess the handholding we got from the gc allowed us to narrow the field fairly quickly. Still, I worry about the kids whose parents get set on certain colleges (particularly ivies) too early in their high school careers. So, I try to keep things low key until the first SAT scores are in, which means no college visits. Of course, if you happen to take a family vacation in the vicinity, or if your kid can visit an older sibling or cousin at college, then why not?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 01:37 pm: Edit

NYmom, one of the _good_ things about G's public high school is that they encourage all students to take the PSAT in both freshman and sophomore years as practice. From this we had some prelim test scores to go on...and G had straight A's though middle school with accelerated math and English, so we had reasonable expectations about GPA range.

We started looking at schools without firmly knowing where her qualifications would line up but thinking at least "Maybe."

She took both the PSAT and a first crack at the SAT in the Fall of junior year and this allowed us to confirm somethings and start assigning schools to categories...reach, ballpark, safety.

Her first semester grades came in okay, with one "bump" that was tolerable if not cause for ecstasy.

So many check-points left: AP tests, SAT II tests, second-semester grades, a re-take of the SAT I next fall and probably a re-take of the SAT II writing...she omitted 8 questions because she ran out of time when she took it last Fall.

By Mare (Mare) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 09:57 am: Edit

I'm a sophomore at Columbia and thought I'd throw in my two cents, since I did two college tours that totaled three and a half weeks and over twenty schools.

Someone mentioned taking photographs: I took pictures not only of the campus but of my tour guides (most were only too happy to pose) so I could remind myself of who said what and where. I also brought along a little notebook and jotted down impressions of every school as well as answers to questions that I asked.

In my experience, the information sessions you attend while visiting a college are largely an opportunity for the admissions director and "representative" students (one voice among thousands) to go on a power trip and for one or two visiting parents to try to show up everyone else by extolling the virtues of their SuperChild ("Now, we're so worried about little Egbert not being challenged enough; commuting to Julliard to continue his tuba lessons will take up so much of his time, of course, but... well, we've heard they don't even LET freshmen take Ordinary Differential Equations, and that would really be a shame, since...") If you must go to these, by all means don't make your son or daughter go, too. I went to two on my first trip and then stopped altogether.

A better alternative, if you feel you should go just in case, is to do what my mom and I did. She would sacrifice herself and attend the information session, while I would summon up all of my courage and stop students on campus to ask them questions. We also did a fair amount of such student-on-the-street interviewing together. I can't imagine visiting a college without doing this. Try to grab as wide a range of people as possible and as many people as you can manage. Usually, after talking to four or five people you can start to cobble together a MUCH better picture of what it's really like to attend the school than you can get frm the tour (which, really, is often just a glorified architecture lecture--though, I do think, an incredibly necessary one).

I didn't sit in on any classes, and I'm not sure whether I'd recommend that or not. It could be a great indicator, or it could drive you away from your dream school. Sometimes there are simply bad classes, bad professors, good professors with off days, or excellent professors that your child just doesn't mesh with (this happens). If there's one particular department your son or daughter is interested in, it might help to arrange an appointment with a faculty member or to see them teach. But if your child isn't sure what he or she wants to study... well, I don't know how much the sitting-in is going to help them. And interests change. As a high school student I arranged for extensive personal tours of the drama departments at Boston College and Dartmouth, including meetings with professors, but now that I'm at Columbia I'm happy as a lark without having done a single moment of theatre. You never know.

On second thought, I can see sitting in on a class being helpful at a school like Columbia, which has an extensive Core Curriculum made up mostly of very small classes, just to get a feeling for what the Core is about. But ALWAYS take the class with a grain of salt. Especially with seminars or things like the small Core classes at Columbia (not so much with big lecture classes), different sections have different personalities. Even the same class can have different personalities on different days. I'm hammering home this point not because I think your child is bound to be disappointed if he or she attends a small class. Far from it; he or she will probably come out glowing. But I know from experience that once in a while my classes just have off days; I'll be slouching in my chair after not having slept in 36 hours and realize that everyone else wrote an 8-page paper last night, too, or everyone hated that particular reading, or it's Monday and rainy, or it's the middle of midterm hell, and I'll think, "Wow, I'm glad there's not some wide-eyed high school junior watching us be cranky today. They should have been here last week for..." You get the idea.

So: photos, notes, talk to lots and lots of students, maybe sit in on a class, go on the tour but skip the info session. And talk to lots and lots of students. And while you're at it, talk to students.

Good luck!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:37 am: Edit

Thanks, Mare. Grist for the mill. I'll pass on the bit about taking the classes with the grain of salt. And I know what you mean about grandstanding showboating parents...blech...we saw some of those.

Getting my daughter to approach students out of the blue will be an interesting exercise. While visiting D.C., I insisted that she learn to hail a cab...a necessary urban survival skill in some places...and she felt very self-conscious at first.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:40 am: Edit

SoozieVT should be back by now...how were the trips?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:43 am: Edit

Info sessions...as a parent, I still find them useful. Recognizing that it's the "official" and sometimes sanitized view, it's one facet of the college.

In the case of American U. in Washington, D.C., it turned all of us completely off...academics was WAY down their list of priorities. Listening closely...seeing what their priorities are and what they tend to glide over...gives some useful cues, imo.

By Cassatia (Cassatia) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Wow, this board has been unbelievably helpful. I just got ACING THE COLLEGE APP by Michele A. HErnandez. She does not give nearly as much insightful advice on the college visiting process as this board does. For April visits, should I begin making appointments now? Should I do it myself or go through my daughter's guidance counselor (big public school, I think her counselor must have over 200 students)??

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Appointments you make yourself; your daughter's GC does not have enough hours in the day to do this.
(Private schools that take group tours are a different matter.)

Note that for tours and info sessions, you do not have to make appointments...just show up at the appointed hour as gleaned from the website or a call to admissions; I don't rely on books because times can change and they can be outdated.

Both of our daughters are juniors and I don't know that admissions officers will want to set up time to meet...certainly things like overnight stays seem to be pretty tightly held to seniors only.

Columbia has been on exception as we e-mailed the admission officer who did the presentation at the high school, my daughter asking if she could drop in and introduce herself in a less hectic setting.

Btw, I've not yet seen ACING THE COLLEGE APP but I like Hernandez' other book. Would you please post a thumbnail review here?

By Cassatia (Cassatia) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Thanks for the advice. This is what the backcover of the Hernandez book outlines:
-a line by line look at the common app
-the truth abou tthe essays, with samples of those that made the grade
-the best way to ask for recommendations
-when to provide optional essays and peer evaluations
-the ten most comon myths and misconceptions of the on-campus interview
-the most meaningful subjects, work experience, and extracurriculars to mention
-early decision vs early action: the trade-offs

By Aparent (Aparent) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 02:03 pm: Edit

Mere, thanks for the comments; daughter is very interested in Columbia.

Re sleepy classes, we visited Yale on my son's tour, went to a class that had been reviewed glowingly by students in the Yale Daily News's online course guide, and found that not only were most of the students dozing off but the class (in an area we are all passionately interested in) got us all so sleepy I had to keep poking husband and son to keep them from snoring! Afterward we just kept trying to remind ourselves that it must have been an "off" day.

By Aparent (Aparent) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

One more thought...A is for Admission is useful, insofar as it awakens parents and students to how high the standards are in the top schools. We find an awful lot of families have a very inflated idea of how good a student's chances are, and she definitely opens their eyes to reality. However, when she talks about the methods various adcoms use, keep in mind she is generalizing from her own experience at Dartmouth. When we visited Yale, the adcom rep said, "I don't know how Michele Hernandez sleeps at night. The way we do things is very different from the way they were done at Dartmouth in her time. And the way Fred Hargadon does them down at Princeton is different from the way we do them."

By Roger (Roger) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 03:36 pm: Edit

Thanks for sharing your experience, Mare. I agree with your approach wholeheartedly.

While we are dispensing grains of salt, I'll throw out a salt boulder: sometimes you have to take the whole visit with a grain of salt! One of our visits took us to a campus on a day with horrible weather - low-hanging fog, near-freezing rain, numbing cold. Based on our visit, we might have concluded that,
1) The campus was ugly and depressing;
2) The students hated it there;
3) Most staff members were apathetic.

We know for a fact that these conclusions aren't true, for a variety of reasons. I've talked to many parents and students, looked at satisfaction surveys, seen many campus photos, read "insider" reviews, etc. But after that visit, our daughter certainly had major reservations about attending there.

I don't think there's any real way to deal with that kind of situation. If you go to a five-star restaurant, and happen to get a clumsy waiter and a chef on his first day at work, you'll be left with a poor (if inaccurate) impression. As Mare suggests, talk to lots of students.

You can also try contacting students before and after your visit - many colleges make it easy to find student home pages and/or e-mail addresses. As your contacts progress, use subsequent visits/contacts to explore concerns. If someone says, "The crime problem seems to be getting better," then you should ask subsequent contacts about that issue until you feel you have a reasonably accurate picture.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Thanks for the add, Roger.

I tend to believe in a cautious, temperate approach anyway, not getting pushed far in either direction without a lot of accumulated evidence.

By Marcie (Marcie) on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Re college tours: you do need an appointment at some colleges. We just returned from two college visits (University of Northern Colorado and Florida State) and both required specific reservations. UNC was full for the time we wanted so we just showed up and were able to fit in. We thought both tours were excellent.

Florida State was having Preview for prospective students on the day we visited, with all dorms available for tours. We toured three dorms and got a lot of good info from students. You actually have to apply to get in at some of their more desirable dorms (another essay!).

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Ok, since theDad keeps asking about the college visit trip I just did, I'll give it a try. I have to laugh, but I have participated regularly for a few years on a particular and specific travel forum and the laughing joke on that one is that the last time I went on a trip to this favorite place that is the bind the regulars on the forum share, I did not write a trip report as promised....though I had in past years. So, now dad asks for a trip report on THIS Forum! Luckily nobody on my travel forum reads this or they would kill me for doing this and not their report.

Ok, well, this was not the first college visit I have done this year. So far, my child visited Princeton (with grandfather), Tufts, Brown, Harvard, and Cornell. So, I am getting the hang of it. I have tried as best as I could do include the same things in each college visit so that we can sort of compare apples to apples. I live in Vermont, btw, and this last two day/night visit was to CT to see Connecticut College (while a challenging school, it is likely a safety school for my child), and Yale University. Unlike my other visits, we did not stay at a hotel cause it just so happens that my 14 yr. old daughter's best friend from summer theater camp lives outside of New Haven so we stayed with that family and my younger one came along to spend the days with her best bud.

As I have mentioned in previous threads, these are the things we try to include on each visit and line up as much as we can ahead of time.....we do the college tour, the information session, meet with a coach or team captain to learn about the program in a sport my child does, meet up with any student we know from our area who attends, meet with a professor in the department my child is interested in majoring in or if not possible, then visit that department, talk with students in that department, and talk with students on campus in general, eat in the dining halls, and get into various dorm rooms which they never seem to show on the tours. So, indeed this visit pretty much was comprised of those things.

Connecticut College is the smallest school my daughter has on her current list. Ironically, I had visited it and applied when I was in high school, got in, but did not attend there but as soon as I drove up, I remembered it well. It is a lovely campus....pretty traditional small New England College looks, but not red brick...rather lots of grey stone buildings with grassy (snowy at this time of year!) greens and buildings surrounding them. You can view the ocean and a river from campus. While it is located in the small town of New London, you cannot walk into town....you would either need a car to get to anything off campus or else they do have shuttle vans for the kids to many locations. Actually, this is the only school on her list where you could not walk to anything off campus. However, this is not truly a college town, I was told and there was not that much in town that the kids did and most of their social life revolved around campus activities. You could take a train to Providence, Boston, or NYC for a diversion. Our visit began with an appointment my daughter had with the head of the architectural studies department and he met with us for 45 minutes fully explaining the program and answering questions, etc....very nice opportunity. Unfortunately we did not get into the design studios which were locked in a different building and she did not meet with any students specifically in that major. It is obvious, however, that students work very closely with much individual attention with professors as they only have 28 students in all four years in this major. Besides learning about their program, each of these visits really informs my daughter more about this field and major. The school values programs abroad and my daughter really wants to do that during college. I think 60% of the students there do that. Then we ate in a dining hall. I had to nudge my daughter to just take the step to randomly go up to a table of students and ask to talk to them about the school. She is always willing, seems hesitant at first and then loves it once she does it. So, she spoke to some students about various aspects of the school. Then we went on the tour (this college also normally has an info. session but not on the date we visited). One other family was on the tour and lo and behold they were from near us and recognized my daughter cause of her similar looks to my other daughter and they asked if this was her sister as this girl danced at our studio...of all things, plus the parents realized that they had spent Xmas eve with our daughter at mutual friend's. It was very strange...normally we do not run into anyone from our state no less. While on the tour, a college girl runs up to our little group asking if we all were from such and such town in VT, and she had gone to the other family's HS and I immediately realized she was in my daughters' dance classes....did not realize we knew any students there. Anyway, I forgot to mention during the day, many students were so friendly and voluntarily would come up to us if they saw us look hesitant or looking at a map...offering to help! That happened a lot. The tour guide of course was helpful but realize that person is a cheerleader of sorts for the school. We saw the usual stuff. He talked about the usual stuff too. This tour was the ONLY tour we have gone on that showed a dorm room. I have always thought or wished that all tours did this. However, I was perplexed at the room this guide chose to share...it was a freshman triple in a room that looked as if it were meant for two and clearly was NOT indicative of the rooms at the college. In fact, I encourage you all to visit dorm rooms, but in MORE than one dorm at any school, as they vary so much from dorm to dorm. This school had one neat thing....after freshman year, everyone gets a single! Later in the day, we approached several dorms, just waiting outside for a student to be entering, then my daughter would go up to that person and explain how she was in HS visiting (they have all been there before!) and ask to see their room...everyone always says yes at every school....their only hesitation is that "my room is soooo messy" but I promise I will not be telling their moms! So, we got to see a great variety of rooms/dorms, all grade levels, that day. Besides that, on these impromptu dorm room visits, we got to speak to several students randomly and ask anything....that is sooooooooooooooooo good to do! We also had lined up to meet the ski team captain....so not only did my daughter learn more about that activity at that school but it was a chance to spend an hour with yet another student there. This guy was so nice and accidentally the girl captain passed by and joined us too. You can ask kids why they chose the school...where else they applied, what they do on weekends, the whole gamit. I could go on to tell specifics about Connecticut College, but I am not sure that is what people want to know...I sense it is more about the visit itself. But if you want to know more about specifics of this school, I can try to answer. We spent the full day there.

At Yale, we started with the information session. It was run by an admissions counselor (most are but most we have gone to also include one student to help answer questions). This young woman had graduated Yale just two years ago and thus not only did admissions but had just experienced Yale as a student. She was one of the most bubbly enthusiastic presentors I have ever seen. She incorporated all the usual stuff about academics, residential life and admissions. By the way, one comment she made (which was also made at Cornell) I do want to share here cause I find these forums here tend to be full of a lot of kids who seem very very into status and prestige in picking a college....like that factor itself seems to be highly important to them....and people are constantly giving their "stats" on here and others critique them for admissions...often simply grades and SAT scores and some young people will say....oh, you do not have over 1500? Go to community college! and junk like that. People on these forums put such a huge emphasis on SAT scores and seem to evaluate people's chances for admissions on this one factor alone as if there is a magic cut off point. So, for those people who read this....the admissions person at Yale brought up that SATs were clearly clearly clearly not everything and that in fact, while they did admit (approx) 60 students with 1600 on the SAT, they also denied 80 kids with perfect 1600s as well. The Cornell adcom person also deemphasized the huge importance these kids were putting on SAT scores. Let's face it folks, yes, you need a decent score in the BALLPARK for the school you are applying to just to be in the running for consideration. But given that, since most have scores in that general range, that is NOT the factor for admission! It is the other stuff that sets you apart from one another! It is not enough to have 1600 on the SAT....kids with much lower get in who stand out in some way!They also emphasized the importance of an essay that shows your voice and is not bland. Ok, then we went on the tour...our guide was a freshman boy from Taiwan...and we did meet tons of kids that day from all over the world and quite diverse.

The setting for Yale is urban but truly a small city and there is a campus for sure, but you can walk down the street and be near many restaurants and stores geared to young people. I know my child finds that attractive at some schools. The architecture is lots of gothic very old buildings...pretty neat. The library looks like a very old cathedral inside. We saw many things, cannot get into all of them. One of the most attractive aspects to my daughter is the residential college system which is somewhat similar to Harvard and she really liked that at Harvard as well, but now is not going to apply to Harvard as she wants to pursue architecture and it does not have an undergraduate program. At Yale, you are assigned to a residential college (they have 12) when you come freshman year...each college being a microcosm of the entire student body. Each residential college is like the student's small community within the college. They live there, have their own dining facilities, deans, many other facilities, plus they compete in intramurals against the other colleges all four years. Freshman live in freshman dorms on Old Campus, but they are grouped within those dorms with their fellow freshmen from their future residential college. The next three years they live at the residential college. But they dine there even in freshman year. The loyalty to these colleges was so apparent, even the admissions counselor joked how "Berkeley" is the best and the tour guide showed us his college proclaiming Saybrook was the best...etc. Each of these residences has its own courtyard. When the tour was over, we asked our guide if he was willing to show us his freshman dorm room and he obliged and the set up is so much like Harvard's....they have suites with a common room with small bedrooms off that room....sometimes four were in the suite....the bedrooms might be small but they have that common big room to share with just a few kids like a little apt. Then we met up with the ski team captain for lunch at one of the main dining facilities...The Commons. Again, besides ski racing stuff, we gleaned tons of other information....ie, why he picked this school over Brown for instance. He was really great to meet with us...truly added to the visit. He lived off campus (sorta rare there) so had no room to show us. Then we visited the architecture school and we had called ahead and no professor can meet up but the administrative assistant said he does that and he spent a great deal of time sharing about the program and gave us a Yale course catalogue (they never wanna give these out to juniors visiting whereever we go!)...our talks with him were very informative. The architecture program varies in many ways at each school we visit and I won't get into that here but if anyone else is looking into this, I can explain if you ask. We spent a great deal of time visiting the design studios where juniors and seniors were working independently on various projects. For one thing, my child saw vividly exactly what they do in studio...plus we got to chat with several different students and this was super! We also saw galleries of architecture work as well. Then we really wanted to see more of the dorms and INSIDE a residential college. We visited several freshmen dorms, meeting some extraordinary students from places like LA and Haiti and way more...they were soooooo willing to share on the spot. I learned so much stuff and you can see why certain kids got in. One of them did band, and my child would like to as well so we found out some on that. One went totally out of his way to take us over to HIS residential college and showed us all the inner workings...the dining facility, game room, tv room, cafe, and on and on....sooo good to see. Other kids at other residential colleges showed us their rooms and chatted. We ended that day meeting up with a girl from VT that my other daughter knows from theater and she is a freshman. She got in ED to Yale....by the way, quite average type SATs, but accomplished in theater in VT, also ski racing, and was on State Board of Education, etc. from very rural town. Ironically she was coming from a rehearsal (there are sooooooo many performance things going on at Yale!) and her student director turned out to be a friend from my younger daughter's summer theater camp in NY. She also was going to see Cabaret that night and I later found out the lead in that was also a friend from my younger daughter's camp. The girl from VT also showed us her suite (roommates from all over!) and just oodled her love of Yale and why. While she is focused on theater, she also raced for the ski team there too...both things my daughter is interested in.

So, that is what we did. We certainly learned way more things about each school but this is way way way long enough.

So, I shall close with that we came back for my daughter's state championships in ski racing today.....the windchills were 30 below zero and the temps likely did not go over zero and we really were not thrilled with how this was going to be held in such conditions. When she arrived at the mountain luckily they had to postpone the race cause the lifts could not operate in the high winds....and lucky for us that it is being held at the ski resort in our hometown but kids came from all over the state and have to spend another night in hotels....and some drove in for the day two hours each way....so it is now on for tomorrow....so onto the next thing.

So far, my daughter has really liked each college she has visited. Some ask, does one pop out that she likes the best? Well, not yet but that is good cause the best scenario right now is that she likes several cause these schools are so competitive and unpredictable for one's own admisssion ( a little of a crap shoot at times I think), that I would hate to have her have her heart set on one place only. We need to find several that are appealing...and also to like the safeties. If one ends up popping up as a total fave, she can decide next fall if she desires the ED route which has some advantages in acceptance rates (a third of the Yale freshman class came in through this route)...but can only be considered if it is clearly a first choice. By the way, Yale is switching to EA next year I believe.

One thing my daughter is doing now is to write out some extensive notes about each aspect she saw on the visits or learned as there are definitely differences in living situations, settings, architecture programs, and so on. As she makes these notes, I have a feeling certain things will start to pop out that are more appealing about some schools. One thing is that even if you visit schools your child never ends up applying to, they do get a feeling for what is appealing to them....settings, size, types of kids, etc. You gotta visit to find this out....a brochure or website is not enough. So far,she is pretty gung ho on each school she has seen. The visits are tiring days and I am not sure how some of you do a full week of visits.

OK....so there's my trip report!!!!! you asked for it, thedad....hope you ain't sorry!
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 12:20 am: Edit

bump


Thanks, Susan. Not sorry at all. Thank you so much for taking the time to type all that in.

I need to read it again but OKH (Oberkommando der Haushold) needs this computer to do an update on the ballet company's website. Priorities...priorities....

But the report is nice for two reasons: it gives us information to chew on and it gives us vicarious pleasure while waiting for our own trips. I'll do turnabout, promise.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 01:24 am: Edit

bump

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 10:47 am: Edit

Thank you, thank you Susan!!! I loved the trip report and will certainly share it with my high school gremlins, they too will get alot out of it.....feel free to elaborate. As that we are in no financial situation to travel for the kids, esp. from west coast to east coast we will all treasure your trip reports. So carry on!!

My daughter was especially interested in your comments about the architecture programs, she too is considering this as her major. Her elective last year as a freshman was Auto CADD architecture and this year she has Architecture I, followed next year with Advanced Architecture. She is thinking about the various summer programs, but that will depend on her sports' practice and meet schedules. She has accessed the NAAB and ACSA website (www.acsa-arch.org and www.naab.org/cal_cat1724/cal_cat.htm) for figuring out which programs are members and which programs have undergrad vs. grad for architecture. They also explain the various ways in which to become licensed as a professional architect. Have you investigated Wash U's scholars honors program in which you are admitted to the grad program when being admitted to the undergrad? Have you looked into Notre Dame's program yet? Is your daughter interested in the abroad programs many of the arch programs have? My other daughter while attending Cal Poly SLO was able to observe a lot of the arch students and they have a seperate dorm for them. But their major was architectural engineering vs. straight arch. We have a copy of the Gorman (sp?) report for some type of reference with regards to architecture but many of the univ. are huge and I don't know if that is what she wants yet. Their high school has 4500+ (varies daily, yesterday 4810) so she is sick of big. But we will see, she might be able to get that small feel within her major.
My DD has had a tough time locating a local female architect to mentor with but has managed after considerable searching and pleading and LUCK found one. Now she has to find the time between school, ec and practice. And I have to find the time to drive her there. LOL!!
Again thank you so much for your trip report, I am now going to read it for the third time!!

We did not have Conn. College on the list as that they weren't on either accreditation board site. The University of Hartford has applied for candidacy status though.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 11:19 am: Edit

Susan, thanks for reinforcing the point that test scores are not everything. The way some folks around here proclaim either "You're in!" or "Community College!" is soooo annoying.

The variation about seeing dorms has been our experience so far: none, one, more than one. Some of the dorms really made me (at least) think three times about whether or not this would be a good experience.

I like your notion of being adventurous and just asking random students to let you see the residence halls, etc. I think I will try to coax my sometimes-shy daughter into doing that...it needs to come from her, not us.

KwK, one caution about architecture programs. They can cause some students to develop a...wait for it...


...edifice complex.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 01:35 pm: Edit

This is particularly in response to Katwkittens (cute name btw)....sorry it took me this long to reply but your post really interests me!! When I put up that trip report it was mostly cause theDad requested it and I tried to keep it to the visit and what we did and not really talk about the architecture dept. aspects...it was long enough as it were and I was not sure who even cared about this particular academic area. Also, that was a report obviously just from this latest trip but we have made a few other visits to date as well.

Let me tell you our situation, then what we have discovered, and also comment a bit about what you shared. First, my daughter is a junior. I find some kids really know what they want to go into in college or for a career and many have no clue and both are common and fine. My freshman daughter fits the first description, my junior daughter the latter (til recently). For one thing, some fields, you get no exposure to while in high school, so how would a student really know they wanted to go into that area with any certainty? My younger one has wanted to go into musical theater since preschool and has never wavered. However, in that one area, she has had experience while growing up. That is not the same with architecture. My older daughter began the college search process at the start of her junior year....we bought a variety of college guidebooks, etc. to start and gave them to her on her 16th birthday, the day before she began 11th grade. She came up with 30 schools she was interested in to start. Next, we said it had to be narrowed down so we can choose where to visit. We felt it would really help if she had some idea of one or two academic areas she would like to pursue cause by focusing on that a bit, it would help her to narrow down the list of schools, plus be able to make sure whatever school she chose, actually did have a decent program in a field she might like to study. So, part of her goal this year was to think about finding an academic focus for now. With that in mind, she had begun late last year to think a bit about architecture and so arranged an independent study this year one period per day, under the supervision of a faculty member to learn drafting, mechanical drawing and AutoCad. She thought about what skills she was good at and enjoyed. She looked into engineering a bit too though again, it is hard for a kid to truly know what engineers do. She looked at dept. websites for colleges on her list and even those were informative. At the first couple of college visits, she actually met with engineering professors to chat with them about those programs. But, she has since decided that she would prefer to pursue architecture over engineering, and once she decided that, that list of 30 schools, got narrowed to 8, plus we added one (Penn) that she had not originally considered but I found out it had architecture and she added that on. I think she thinks that architecture combines some strengths she has such as math, physics, problem solving, computers, creativity, and some hands on artistic or building things aspects, plus it is interdisciplinary as it includes history and cultures and stuff like that and she really does enjoy many subjects.

Anyway, as we have begun to delve deeper, I did find the websites you just mentioned that explain the avenues to become an architect and schools, etc. Someone on another college forum pointed that out to me and it really helped. So, as you have seen, there are basically three ways to get to be an architect. The first is one she is not considering but that is to go to college for some unrelated major but then go to graduate school for architecture for 3 or 4 years to become an architect. The second way, which the majority of schools on her list fit....is to major in architecture as an undergraduate, like you would with most any liberal arts major, and then you have to go to graduate school for architecture for two years (MAYBE 3) to get a MArch. to be an architect. The third way is to enter a more professional certified undergraduate program in architecture that is a five year program leading to the BArch degree that does lead to being a licensed architect. Two schools on her list have this program (Cornell and Carnegie Mellon).

The big thing is with any of the five year BArch programs, a student would have to know still in high school that she wanted to become an architect and apply directly for the architecture program at these colleges for admittance. That is a huge commitment so they would have to be quite sure. Also, the curriculum in those programs is pretty spelled out, reminding me a bit of engineering degrees with many required courses, unlike most undergraduate majors. So, they cannot take as much of other stuff as normal when in a liberal arts program. Also for Cornell, she must even apply with a portfolio!

We visited Cornell about six weeks ago and I was suprised my daughter would like such a big school (is way bigger than others she has looked at) but she really did. We visited the architecture program and we went into the design studio and she went up to a girl to ask about her experiences. This girl was a freshman and soooooo nice and she talked a long while and then took us to her dorm room to show us that and then shared a portfolio of all the work she did in the program first semester and truly this was the first real visit of this sort that my daughter had with an architecture department and student up close and so it was very appealing I could tell. I almost got the impression that she would really like to go there (though truthfully she has liked each college we have visited thus far). However, now, after some time has passed, and after we have now visited the architecture programs at Connecticut College and Yale, I think she is shying away from the five year professional undergraduate programs such as at Cornell or Carnegie Mellon. I think she feels she is not ready to sign on the line to committ to architecture, plus have so many of her undergraduate courses be preselected, compared to just majoring in architecture in a more liberal arts way. I think she saw at Yale for instance, how wonderful the design studio stuff was, just like at Cornell, and then it is just two more years for the masters after that so timewise, you are not looking at a big difference. Also, some schools on her list....I THINK Princeton, Yale and Penn have a senior year intensive option where if you get into that, your senior year overlaps with the first year of graduate school in architecture. The thing at these three schools is that they do have a graduate program in architecture right there so I think their undergraduate program is a bit more developed than some.

You mentioned a few other programs in your post. When we started this process we put no constraints on our daughter such as location. However, on her own, she opted to decide to keep her search to the East Coast....I think she feels that allows her to get home for a visit more easily. I cannot complain but I would have supported whatever choice she made in this regard. As she has gone this architecture route, I keep trying to now keep searching and learning more and I did recently see about the pr ogram at Washington U of St. Louis and mentioned it to her, and she had never heard of the school (I had) and it would be a good target school for her but she was not interested due to location...far from home and likely no skiing (she is has been a ski racer her entire life). I also thought she could look into MIT but she crossed it off her list cause I think she does not want a school that is geared toward one general area (technology, science, etc) and wants a more liberal arts environment, so that would knock out some schools like Rensaleer as well. So, what I am finding is that the architecture programs vary quite widely amongst the schools o her list. However, I guess if she is going on to grad school for it, it would not matter totally if the undergraduate program was the best there was, etc.

She has visited Brown....they have it as a major but not that much in the design area (which she does want) but you can take some of those courses next door at Rhode Island School of Design (where she does not want to apply cause she does not want a specialty school) but does like Brown a lot. We also visited Tufts, which happens to be both mine and my husband's undergraduate alma mater. They have many architecture options there....I have not looked at it lately but there is architectural studies both in the liberal arts departments and in engineering, plus they have architectural engineering as well. While she has not made this decision to do architecture prior to that visit, we did have a meeting there with an engineering professor to chat and actually he is the one in charge of architecture students within the engineering department as it turns out. My daughter visited Princeton first but I was not along....she did that visit with my father as my parents live half the year in South Jersey and she was down there visiting them. She went by the architecture department on that visit but had no appointments with anyone. Our next trip in a few weeks is to Penn and to Lehigh (safety school for her). I happen to have grown up outside of Philadelphia so can stay down there.

I totally get your situation being on the west coast and looking at east coast schools. The expense for the visits is great. It is not even cheap for me doing two day trips but I do not have flights to pay for so it is cheaper for me than for you. I think visits are essential before you make a final choice. So, I guess the best route for you guys is to visit once she gets admitted but before signing on the line. But that would allow you to make one trip east.

Your child's school situation is so different than my daughter's. You have over 4000 students! Sounds like my high school growing up which had 3600 and I thought THAT was big (suburb of Philly). But we live in a rural area in Vermont, in a resort community where six towns attend our high school and we have 600 students. I can see how your daughter might want to try something different than where she grew up. Likewise, my daughter feels the same...for instance, she does not want to go to college in Vermont (though Middlebury has architecture major....Univ. of Vermont does not but she is likely the valedictorian and every Val in VT gets a free ride for four years to UVM which she'd be turning down!). One thing I can tell you that while 4500 kids is huge for high school, that number for college is really not huge, it feels medium. That is how I felt about Tufts undergraduate...was not all that much bigger than my high school and was just right. Also, one thing we are finding out at these schools is that the architecture department/major is small and so the kids are in this really close group within the larger university. Even at huge Cornell, they only had like 60 kids per year of architecture students. At Yale, there were 25 per grade. At Connecticut College, the smallest school on her list, there were 28 for all four years total. So, as you can see there is a small community within the larger college at each of these places. They have to keep it down in design studios for the individualization that they get in critiques.

Lastly, as soon as I read your post I was telling it to my daughter cause I had NEVER heard of architecture classes in high school! So, all that I remarked earlier in my post about no exposure in high school I would have to take back in YOUR child's case! Wow! So, she will really know if she likes it! At least my daughter is doing this independent study so that has been a great start and she does like it. One project was designing her dream house...lol. My daughter has never looked into the summer programs at colleges, though that is also a great option. She has gone away every summer for many years but has opted to not do academic programs in summer as she works her butt off all year in school. Last summer she spent six weeks traveling throughout the western US and Western Canada and Hawaii on a teen tour and this summer she is going on a program called Tennis Europe where she will travel throughout Europe and play in tennis matches against Europeans. Previous years, she spent the summer in NY State at a performing arts program. Anyway, I think the way your daughter might work with an architect mentor is great. My daughter wanted to shadow an architect for a day, and we have so many in our small town as it is a resort community and we know a lot of them. But she hates missing school as she has had to miss many days as it is for ski races, music festivals, dance performances, etc. So, she has not been able to line up a visit yet. I have suggested to her that when she is home in August after the Europe trip, maybe she can intern in an architect's office in town so she can learn more about what it is truly like. She has not yet arranged that, mostly cause she has this idea that when her tour of Europe ends after 4 1/2 weeks, she wants to fly to Belgium (where she already will have been earlier) to meet her best friend from home who is going to spend some time there at relatives, but we are very hesitant to have her do that...means flying from her group's end point in Madrid to Belgium on her own, etc. So, once we let that idea die down, maybe if she is here, she will see about the architect office idea...I will pass on that your daughter has looked into that.

I can truly relate to the whole schedule mess. My kids are very active extracurricularly every afternoon and night and weekend...I have no idea how you do it with more kids but it is hectic with just two kids' schedules here and things are spread far apart as it is rural. But my junior does drive so that helps some.

Oh, and I forgot...yes, my daughter very very much wants to study abroad in college, and that has been one thing we have looked at when visiting or considering the colleges.

Good luck to you and your daughter and if you wish to share more on architecture programs, etc. etc...that would be great.
Susan

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 11:03 am: Edit

What a fantastic post Susan!! You put so much valuable information and insight into it....definitely printing both of them (posts) out and putting into kiddos college folders, to keep for reference. As I mentioned in my previous post it is financially impossible for us to do any traveling for colleges so the kids are making do with all the wonderful trip reports posted on here and from the other kids at school. As a single mom of 6 (one is sort-of mine boyfriend's 6 year old) with one car and me as the sole driver they would have to go by themselves and the finances aren't there for even that....the summer programs the high schoolers participate in have given them all scholarships which includes tuition, room, board, travel expenses, and incidentals....and in some cases have brought home a stipend which helps out for the school year, esp. lab fees, and additional textbooks
We have been fortunate that in re-locating (after my divorce) the children were able to make new contacts for their EC's and sports, and there were scholarships available for some of their club sports, couldn't participate without them!
As far as visiting campuses they have had some exposure but through the summer programs only, and those are held at schools that weren't on their list to attend at all. It does help if it is in the same region or area as their targeted schools so they get a feel for climate and surroundings but nothing more. Some of their coaches have attended some of the targeted schools so they can shed some light on the schools but not like a visit could. So we will see...and they do know if they decide on a far-away school they will not be coming home very often.

Your daughter is so fortunate to have the opportunity to travel to Europe this summer, she must be thrilled!!! I get goosebumps just thinking about all the wonderful things she will get to see and do. That is an opportunity of a life-time. And yes I too would be nervous about letting my DD fly alone from the group to another destination esp. in this day and age. Two of mine are supposed to fly to their summer programs this year (they are excited, having never been on a plane before) and I am nervous with all that has been going on in the world. But it won't stop them from going!!

Cornell's arch program was my DD's top choice but again she will be very far from home, so that will be a consideration. It is also very cold, VERY COLD esp. if you swim and dive. She has above a 4.0 (4.3 or something like that) weighted and a 4.0 unweighted with all Honors classes except Architecture . But she does receive 12 sem. units of local college credit when she completes the 3 year sequence in high school. The classes provide her with the opportunity to create a portfolio and she entered and placed 2nd last year in UNLV's dept. of engineering bridge building competition. She wanted to participate in at least one of the summer programs in arch to get a feel for the design studio, but her swim season (JO) and dive season are smack in the summer and both coaches say NO WAY to her leaving. Sigh...as that her sports might be paying the way for her college I am hesitant to counter their wants. Which is why I in another post was so cautious about NCAA eligibilty and doing anything to screw it up! Her brothers play football and baseball so they won't be missing so much in leaving for part of the summer. The athletics too will play a part depending on DI, DII or DIII status, of the respective schools. If she receives an academic/merit/aid she does not have to focus on a DI or DII school, but if she decides she wants to compete in college (or necessary) then she will have to limit her choices based on athletics as well.

She has received stuff from the University of Oregon, Tulane, MS State (this one I am not too thrilled with!) but hey, Univ. of Wisconsin Milwaukee, Cal (but since we are from bay area and familiar she says NO emphatically) and Notre Dame. She was very interested in Notre Dame's more classic and traditional focus, not just as asthetic's go but in teaching module....but she is definitely focused on the 5 year professional program, vs. the two other routes. I have stressed the importance of a liberal arts education in conjunction with a specialized one but she is determined. She has known for a long time she wants to do this, so that is that! (her words)
Again I look forward to all your trip reports, and find your information invaluable. Thank you for taking the time and providing the details, it is much appreciated. Just think, YOU are part of my kiddos prospective college folders!!

Kat

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 11:54 am: Edit

Great post, Susan.

It's been an unexpected (for me) treasure to find so many terrific parents and good perspectives on this board, seeing how things are alike/different for different parts of the country, different kinds of schools, different kinds of kids, different interests.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Soozievt - Your descriptions of your visits was great - thanks! Especially for us West Coasters it is good to hear a first hand report.

I did want to mention one point about Yale to you, however. I have read in several places (including the FISKE guide) that Yale is not big on allowing study abroad - they prefer that their undergraduates spend all 4 years at Yale. If I recall correctly, FISKE said only about 10 percent of students actually do study abroad so you might want to ask some very pointed questions if Yale is on your daughter's "top" list.

Carolyn

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Thanks you guys.

Kat...wow, six kids....I do not know how you do it...particularly the schedules! Anyway ok, so your daughter wants the five year BArch thing so some of the schools we are looking at do not work for her. The only two on my daughter's list like that are Cornell and Carnegie Mellon. However, like I said, I think Yale, Penn, or Princeton, given that they have graduate programs right there, do have an option in the senior year of overlapping for graduate school in an intensive.

If your daughter does not want big, not sure she will want Cornell. It is VERY big. On the other hand, the architecture school is where a lot of her classes will be and that is quite small. For sports, it might be a good choice. If she does not mind big, she might want to look into Syracuse which has the five year thing too. I mentioned this to my daughter though not sure she is interested in such a large school. I have seen Syracuse cause way back in my HS days, it was my safety school for college and it is quite large....some high rise dorms, etc. Again, might be good for sports though. I like what I recently read on the Washington U. of St. Louis site cause they have this flexibility there for the student to decide in junior year whether to go the five year certified route or the more liberal arts route, then grad school. It has a good reputation as well. My daughter still says, no, I don't want to go to school in that location. I do respect that. Swimming and diving can be done in many places. Ski racing can't! lol She is not picking schools around her sports but would still like to participate in them in college as she has her whole life...I could say that in regards to soccer, tennis, ski racing, dance, and band/music.....she wants the school to have these but she is not choosing a school with that as the focus...still looking more at the academic stuff or other criteria, as long as they do have her sports. As you know with these kids' very full schedules, it gets very hard to concentrate on the whole college search stuff, and then they have all the testing to contend with this year too on top of all else. Thankfully, I feel, she has a break in summer.

As far as travel, don't wanna get into it too detailed in this post but my younger one was to go with school to Greece over April break and found out yesterday they are not going. My junior is to go to France on that vacation through school as well and so far have not heard of it called off. They have looked forward to this stuff so much. I am still planning on the Tennis Europe trip for the older one this summer.

On the portfolio thing, of the schools my daughter is looking at, only Cornell requires that for admission to undergraduate school. When I saw that, I thought, how in the world would she come up with one? When we visited the arch. dept., the person there (receptionist) lent us a bunch of such portfolios to peruse which was very helpful. NONE of them were architecture oriented per se. Almost all the work in them was art work...drawing, painting, photography, etc. My daughter is not truly an art student. She then realized, well, if she had to do a portfolio, that actually she does have some things that could go in it....she has taken crafts, ceramics and photography in high school out of interest and those things are what they had in their portfolios. But drawings were a big thing in the portfolios and she would have to do some of that. Her course schedule is so full (particularly being a music student in our school) that fitting in extras is tough. But we think that if she goes the portfolio route (which she is now shying away from....this week, anyway...lol), maybe next fall she could take drawing at school, as her schedule might have some flexibility cause her math and French are likely going to have to be some sort of indep. study as she is done Calculus and French V and that is as high as our school goes, yet she wants to continue in these subjects. But being a small school, the scheduling is hard cause there is only one section, for example of the highest levels of science, English, History, etc...as seniors and so she cannot juggle the blocks around so I hope it would still work to take drawing. I know you can sketch on your own but she is not as confident in that area and a course would give it some structure. I also think she could see if she likes to draw freehand cause that is a PART of architecture, and I assure her, she need not be an artist to do this, it is about form, perspective, and such. When I told the person at Cornell that she is studying drafting, mechanical drawing and autoCad this year and will have samples from that, they said that they really were not looking for that kind of sample for the portfolio! So, not sure what your daughter does in the courses she takes but truthfully the work in the portfolios was not really architecture stuff! It was more artwork! Also, it is funny you mentioned bridges. One summer in middle school, my daughter did a weeklong program called Women in Technology at a college in our state and one project she did was to build a bridge out of....I guess it is balsa? not sure. Anyway, she was thinking if she did a portfolio for Cornell, she could include that. Thought I would pass on what we saw in the portfolios for Cornell. It sounds as if your daughter has coursework already that will create samples for her to use in such a portfolio.

You talk about cold if she comes east or to schools like Cornell. I must admit, we are used to the cold....here in Vermont. But the day we visited Cornell was a very extreme day (which we do have here as well) and there is SOOOOO much walking there as the campus is huge and we criss crossed it all day long and even being Vermonters, we were frozen that day...it was blustery and brutal. I remember saying to my daughter, I can't imagine if someone was on a campus visit today who is not used to the cold, cause they might be very turned off if today was their visiting day. Again, we are used to it but it really can be cold where Cornell is.

Ok, well, good luck on your taxi driving....and I will think of you as we schlep around....and in any case, shall keep in contact as topics arise on these forums which I have been reading pretty regularly.
Susan

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 02:34 pm: Edit

One suggestion for getting the drawing in: are there any art museums near you? My daughter, who loves art, can't fit it in her schedule at school and has taken some wonderful weekend workshops through a museum, including one specifically on developing your portfolio for college. Also, maybe over the summer she could take a community college art class? Some adult education programs also offer art classes in the evening or on weekends. That would probably be fine for building up a portfolio of drawing.
Carolyn

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 05:46 pm: Edit

Hi Carolyn...sorry I did not reply to your first post and missed it but will now reply to both of your posts. As far as travel abroad, you are correct, that at Yale, only 10% travel abroad to study. The same was told to us when we visited Harvard and at the time, I was certainly surprised!!! It was totally the opposite at places like Tufts and Connecticut College where they put high value on study abroad and a large percentage of students do indeed take those opportunities to do so. Study abroad was discussed when we visited Yale. It certainly is possible to do it and I think we did discuss it when visiting the architecture department. Obviously you would have to select a program abroad that would mesh with the requirements at Yale. Another option is study abroad in some capacity in summer I guess. But you do bring up a good point and before enrolling anywhere, those are all things to get very clear. What was apparent at Yale is that they do not have their own programs abroad but can connect you with other ones that are fitting. So, while it is not done by a majority of students, it is certainly something that CAN be done, from my understanding there and at Harvard actually as well.

Thanks for the suggestions on ways to find drawing opportunities. We do not really have museums nearby cause we live in a rural area but of course, there are college courses and such though none of that is nearby either. Another issue for my particular daughter is that finding anything else extracurricular to do is nearly out of the question as she has ECs every afternoon, night, and weekend as it is ;-). But certainly we will see what we can figure out for next year, but we have not even begun on any of that. Besides, one very frustrating thing at our school each year has been that they do not come up with a master schedule of classes for the coming year usually until the final week of school and it is a total mess each year.

Anyway, next year will have some schedule challenges to figure out as it is. She will have been done French 5 this year but wants to continue and I am pretty sure this will not be too difficult as she could do independent study of French 6, as I think someone else has done this before, plus my daughter has done many indep. studies to date in lieu of a regular class. I feel pretty certain her French teacher would take this on. Another issue is that she is in Calculus this year as a junior which is the highest you can go in our school (she skipped ahead in math in middle school....). Actually these two exact issues will be the same for me again in two years with the next daughter who has done the same thing in both subjects...skipping, indep. studies, going as high as it goes by junior year, etc. Anyway, my older daughter will want to continue with math...she excels at math, plus it relates to her career interest of architecture. I am not sure yet how she will get the next level which I guess is Calculus BC. I have not yet looked into this that much. Of course, there is taking it at a college. The dilemma there will be that most colleges are an hour from us, so there is the two hour roundtrip, plus the classtime. I have no idea how she would work that into her schedule cause of all her ECs. Ideally it would be during the school day but that sounds like too big a block of time to be feasible and her other classes will have constraints as to times offered cause the highest level classes in our school, often have just one section each so you cannot shuffle the class time blocks around at all. Another idea for getting math will be indep. study as she has been successful doing indep. studies before and just in math itself, has done Algebra, Geometry, and Precalculus as indep. studies....she is given the work, teaches it to herself, does the homework, takes the test, etc. The only issue I see with Calculus BC would be if there is a teacher who is willing to supervise her with it cause it is not a course taught at our school so a teacher would not have assignments or tests made up (as they did in the other indep. studies and just gave them to her to do on her own). The other way I can think of is through Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth....they have math courses you can do through a mentorship and they have Calculus BC. I am a little familiar with it as both my girls did the JHU Talent Search and won awards and that made them eligible for these math or writing mentorhip/courses. My younger one did a writing one last year (was in 8th gr. but it was college level essay writing course)....so I know this is an option for Calculus.

As you can see, your suggestions are GREAT ones....the issue will be schedule. Hopefully she can fit drawing into her schedule cause French and Math will have flexibility, but of course it remains to be seen how the school master schedule will come to be. Maybe she can do drawing indep. study even at school, like she is doing drafting indep. study now. I am sure when the time comes, we can try to be creative. I find that if the program is not there, or the opportunities are not there, we have accomodations made for our kids at school to meet their learning needs, and do not chalk it up to, oh well, it can't be done. We try to make it happen. It is not always easy but we have advocated for years. Also the guidance counselor believes in making things happen, so that helps! ;-)

thanks for your posts!
Susan

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Susan,
You stole the words right out of my mouth about the John Hopkins online courses. A number of colleges also now offer online courses so maybe that would work for the advanced calculus?

It sounds like colleges will love your daughter - just the fact that she is motivated enough to do independent study in high school gives her high marks in my mind!

Carolyn

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Everyone has different circumstances, but I thought I'd post our itinerary for this Spring's (junior year) college exploration trip:

Sunday 10:00 am Depart Los Angeles
10:20 pm Arrive Boston

Monday 10:00 am Harvard info session
11:00 am Harvard tour

2:40 pm Ballet class at Smith
4:00 pm Parents & daughter talk with
ballet Prof.

5:00 pm Daughter dropped off at House
(dorm) for overnight
5:30 pm Parents meet local couple who
have invited us for dinner

Tuesday 10:00 am Smith info session
11:00 am Smith tour

1:30 pm Meet with orchestra directo
2:00 pm Interview with Admissions

4:00 pm Mount Holyoke tour

Wednesday

9:00 am Yale tour
10:30 am Yale info session

TBD look-see of local ballet school

Thursday

10:00 am Columbia info session
11:00 am Columbia tour

TBD Daughter chat with Columbia
admissions officer

2:30 pm Barnard tour
3:30 pm Barnard info session

6:00 pm Dinner with friend in NYC

Friday 10:00 am Ballet class at Barnard

2:30 pm NYU info session
3:30 pm NYU tour

Saturday
TBD possible additional time at
NYC colleges

possible visit to STEPS dance
studio

8:00 pm "The Producers" on Broadway

Sunday Easter stuff, incl. w/in-laws
from Westchester

Monday open

6:00 pm Depart NYC
9:00 pm Arrive Los Angeles

Time for a little bit of touristy stuff in NYC;
Metropolitan Museum of Art seems to be a unanimous choice. I'm a sucker for Empire State Bldg. and Statue of Liberty...none of us have been to NYC before. Probably go to Ground Zero though it might be overwhelmingly depressing.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

That sounds ambitious and tiring but certainly fruitful...have a great time! My only suggestion would be that try to fit in more stuff at each college beyond the info. session and tour. These of course are fantastic starting points and a basic you do not wish to miss....but still limitting. We did these at each school but got so much further acquainted by also meeting professors in the department my daughter is interested in, meeting with students in those departments, eating in cafeterias and talking with students there, and randomly visiting dorm rooms to see them (rarely are shown on tours) and talking with students impromptu while doing so. If you can do any of these things by adding even an hour onto your college visits, I would suggest doing so. I know you are visiting ballet classes at some schools but if I remember correctly your daughter is not planning to major in dance (though obviously wants to continue her dance training so this is important) but you might want to also visit the department she wants to major in....I forget what you said that is...political science? Just a suggestion. Meeting in the departments she hopes to continue her extracurricular interests in is important of course and we did the same...for instance, meeting with ski team captains and so forth. So, your plans are excellent ones...just might want to add this other stuff where you can. When you do the tour, you only are meeting that ONE student, who is obviously a great cheerleader for the school. The Harvard tour is also really full of historic stories of this building or statue or whatever. Visiting the "houses" there is very cool and things like that are what my daughter really found interesting that set one school apart from another....ie, the living situation is very different at each school. Also, try to see the surrounding area nearby the school....if even a half hour of walking around....to get the feel of the area off campus. Your most ambitious part is making it into that ballet class at Smith following the tour of Harvard....good luck! Please post when you return!
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Daughter "gets it" about being assertive and talking to other students...she's read enough by this point that it's not just Dad giving his opinion. Some places we have more time than others...Harvard and Mount Holyoke get the short straws but there's simply not enough time to do everything everywhere. Both Yale and NYU were added to this trip from when it was originally envisioned...gotta give us points for flexibility. We will get a meal at most campuses...again, Harvard is the least likely. If she gets accepted at Harvard, then she can take a trip next year to see it. We tenatively were going to reward ourselves with a trip to Williamsburg, which daughter really wants to see...but a side trip to one or two final schools choices would be okay to incorporate...need to survive *this* year first.

Yes, the Harvard-to-Smith is going to be daunting. Found out at the Harvard tour takes an hour and a half, not an hour...should be over at 12:30. Smith class starts at 2:40 and the AAA map says the trip should take about 1:45...that's tight. Daughter may be wearing tights and leotard under street clothes for the Harvard tour and do her hair in the car while on the road.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Pretty ambitious trip. It's an awful to try and take in in a short period of time. Are you thinking of taking a second trip in the fall to narrow the choices?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 06:23 pm: Edit

No, *this* is the trip to narrow choices. Or, more likely, prioritize choices. On a meta-level, this was conceived three years ago: the plan was freshman year, stick toe in water and visit Northwestern while taking vacation to old stomping grounds around Evanston & Chicago. Daughter did feel self-conscious on info session/tour but it did get us all into the idea of what to expect, how it's done, etc.

Sophomore year was wading out into the shallow end of the pool with a trip to D.C., with side trips to Gettysburg (Gettysburg College) and Williamsburg (William and Mary)...vastly messed up on the time scale for Williamsburg but saw just enough to confirm daughter didn't want to go there. Didn't want to go to Gettysburg, either. All three of us loathed American and couldn't wait to shake the dust from our heels on that one. Surprisingly in some ways, Daughter *loved* George Washington. Also learned one of the truths I've since read in books: make sure you visit campus when school is in session. The first day we visited Georgetown, it was kinda flat because the students were off for one holiday or another; on themom's intuition, we went back on a second day when students were there and it was a *much* better impression...I don't know which Daughter would prefer right now.

But her heart's first choice has always been the Northeast and that trip was designated for last. The mid-junior grades are in and the first crack of test scores are in, giving some validation as to where she's looking. Ideally, she needs to get through this semester with zero or one "B," do well on the math and history SAT II's in June (as well as AP English and AP US Hist in May), and bump her SAT I's from the 1400 range to the 1500 range in the Fall as well as improving the SAT II Writing from 730...she kinda bombed the essay and now knows what to do with it.

The questions at the end of this trip are going to be: is there any one school you feel so strongly about that you want to apply ED? and then, what a *rough* ranking is, like upper half/lower half. Beyond that, it's too murky a process for me, at least, to see how things fall out.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 08:57 pm: Edit

You might want to allow for one more visit, then, maybe this fall. 7 schools in 6 days is a big stretch for final choices, even prioritizing.

Previous now-uneditable post should have read an awful *lot* to try and take in...

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 10:16 pm: Edit

We will make another trip if we have to, maybe a long weekend to look at the top two. Problem is, weekends are full of Nutcracker rehearsals and my daughter won't miss them, even for a college trip. It's pretty demanding...you can lose parts for missing rehearsals. So that would leave Christmas...or next MLK weekend...all times when campuses are going to empty.

By Dadster (Dadster) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Suggestion: take plenty of pictures, including periodic landmarks so you can identify campuses. Film (or memory for digital types) is cheap - get pics of people, off-campus places, etc., in addition to campus buildings.

At the end of a marathon set of visits, things can get surprisingly blurry, like which dorm was really gross, which tour guide was really with it, etc. A photo or video record can help keep things straight, especially months later.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

I think that given you live on the west coast and are visiting schools in the Northeast, you gotta do it the way you describe. Like your daughter, my girls have jam packed schedules 7 days per week with stuff that is very difficult to miss. My kids also are scheduled during the school breaks so those are out for campus visits. Needless to say, it is very difficult to find the time to do these important visits. We sat down in Sept. of this junior year to find a couple dates to see the schools on her list by the end of this school year. She is away in summer and I do not think it is a good time to see a college anyway. It was quite difficult to find the dates she could go. She missed some things but chose ones with the least impact of missing. However, unlike you, we live in the Northeast and the schools on her list are on the east coast so we were able to do two day trips to see two schools, etc. Sometimes we saw just one. The most we saw on a trip were three (only cause Harvard and Tufts are ten min. apart). I totally understand how you have to do this whirlwind weeklong campus trips!

Our visits are now done and the idea was to see if she wanted these schools after visiting them and also to just learn more about them to discern the differences, etc. She loved each school on her list and so that is pleasing cause I hate to see her heart set on any one school cause it is so unpredicatable with admissions at these top schools. It is important that she like several schools, including her safeties. And she does. Like you, another objective of doing these visits all in junior year, is that if one school does pop out as being of strong interest, then the option of going for ED or EA can be looked into. There are some clear advantages of going that route in terms of admissions chances, but it can only be done if the child has explored schools fairly in depth before next fall. She may go this route....not sure yet which, if any, will be chosen for Early....MAYBE Yale...just guessing at this point....not really at that decision yet. Like you, we think if a couple schools really stand out as her top choices, we can return next fall to just a couple....and do even more in depth...overnights in dorms and attend classes, etc. Again...wishing you luck and enjoyment on these visits.

PS....at our house, we are totally immersed in serious rehearsals and performances this week....production week for the school musical.....out till extremely late each night, plus dance performances mixed in the same week....
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Dadster, funny you should mention that, but I bought an extra (and large) memory card for the digital camera just last week. I also keep a college notebook as well as thedaughter so that we can literally compare notes afterwards. Digital camera, notebooks, maps, compass, gun with two magazines, chocolate, gold, silk stockings...wait a sec...how did the escape kit from the WW II movie get in here?

Susan, about rehearsals and such, found out that daughter is up for one of the solos in the Spring show...she can't afford to miss rehearsals, though yesterday she had rehearsals for 4-1/2 hours straight--four different pieces--after a class, lunch, and another class. No wonder she took a long nap this afternoon. Right now she's doing homework.

And I just brought the luggage in from the garage.

By Lizardbreath (Lizardbreath) on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 01:50 am: Edit

I know this is the parents area, but I thought I would add the student perspective. I'll keep it short.

First, the book that helped me the most in my process was the Barron's Top 50 guide. If you know that your daughter is going to look at top schools, there is no reason to beat around the bush with other books. This book has 10-12 page descriptions of the 50 schools that it profiles. They are pretty accurate looking back, and in the case where you don't have a chance to find everything you want to know about a campus you visit, the answers will probably be in here.

Second, each school has a program to set up prospective students with current students to stay overnight. I would recommend this very highly. When I was looking for schools, I travelled with my parents the whole time and didn't stay on campus. While eventually i made a college choice that was right for me, there were certain times where I wasn't sure I had the information I needed because I didn't get to talk enough people, or didn't get to know the feel of the campus. Staying with a current student on campus will help your daughter with this. If you read some of the posts in the kids section or on Princeton Review, you will see over and over again, "Where should I go between X and Y school?", or "I want to go to X and my parents want me to go to Y". Going through this process, the more information that I as the student could get, the smoother the decision was (both in deciding where to apply and where to go once I got in).

Lastly, the more substantive of a visit that your student has now, the less likely it is that you'll have to send them again next March when they're deciding between schools. That is when it gets really tough.

(I'm a graduating senior at Penn and my little sister is starting the process now...this is all of the stuff that I wish my parents knew when I was going through it.)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 02:19 am: Edit

Thanks, Lizardbreath. (Are you the college student in "For Better or For Worse"? j/k)

Students are most certainly welcome here in the Parents Forum...they give us a perspective that's better than us just talking to ourselves.

The only problem with overnights is that a number of schools simply absolutely won't set them up for juniors. Also, you have to have one full day per school to do that. As partial compensation, having the student aggressively talk to everyone they meet to get info is a good idea, along with eating a meal (and eavesdropping), reading the bulletin boards and student pubs, etc.

Thanks for the Barron's Top 50 rec...I can't believe that there's a book I haven't bought yet. j/k...again. I think thedaughter is looking at schools on both sides of that "50" line. Let's see...I'm guessing 5 definitely, 4 maybe, 2 not.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 03:11 am: Edit

The dad...I know this is off topic but as far as rehearsals and stuff....4 1/2 hours is sounding pretty good....here is an inkling of the week we are in now with one of the kids with rehearsals and performances....and that is with missing countless hours of her dance classes to compensate....Friday...first thing in morning did excerpts of the musical performance at an elem. school, then school, followed by 2 hours of jazz dance troupe rehearsal (missed two hours of the musical rehearsal), followed by 2 hours of run through of a variety show, followed by 2 1/2 hours of variety show that dance troupe performed in; Saturday....7 hours of rehearsal for the musical, followed by 2 1/2 hours of the variety show in which her dance troupe performed (not counting the long drive distances to these places); Sunday....2 1/2 hours of tap repertory company rehearsal out of town; Monday.... 9 hours of in school musical rehearsal (must miss classes); Tuesday...8 hours of rehearsal after school ends; Wednesday....8 hours of dress rehearsal after school ends; Thursday....miss half day of school to travel out of town to perform with jazz dance troupe and tap troupe at another school i n the afternoon, return to our town, opening night of the musical all night; Friday, 2 hours of jazz dance troupe rehearsal out of town after school, followed by musical production that night; Saturday....matinee and evening performances of musical.....So, add up those rehearsal and performance times and it is insane...have no idea how she will do her schoolwork...and she is missing during this one week period ten hours of dance classes, voice lesson, piano lesson, just to compensate! Ya gotta love this stuff to do it, right? The combination of hell week for the musical and also several dance performances in the same week is rather insane!
Susan
now back to our regularly scheduled college discussion....;-)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:33 am: Edit

Just ducking in for a quick post from Barnard, while daughter is currently taking a ballet class. NYU is the last school, on tap for this afternoon.

Seven schools in five days is ambitious but we're holding up on many scores. One school has been eliminated: Mount Holyoke. Otherwise, daughter has the frustrating habit of liking the last school she's seen the best.

I can tell that I'm going to go grayer over the following year. She can do okay at all five schools but it's pretty evident that she would *thrive* at two schools: Yale and Smith. But she says that she's "not going to let herself fall in love with Smith, even though she wants to." The ballet class was good but not great and I think she was disappointed that a top-level college ballet class didn't blow her away...will be interesting to see how she reacts to the Barnard class...and it's an indication of just how strong her ballet to date has been.

Columbia is the one school that I think would be *horrible*--or at least stunting--for her but since that's the last one she saw....

This trip has been very good in many ways, including for daughter's development, but I did not anticipate that stress levels would *increase* instead of *decreasing* with information.

I anticipate that this is the last time I'll get to post until next Tuesday.

To whoever it was who was asking about Smith,it looks like a *great* school and visiting changed some of my thinking on the large school/smaller (medium?) school question. Details to follow.

By Marcie (Marcie) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

Thedad: Looking forward to your full report on this college tour. Keep us posted, so to speak.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 12:21 am: Edit

Thedad: Missed your input this week, you missed out on the "Northwestern debacle," but you can still weigh in. I, too, am interested to hear all about the schools, and both the student's and parents' perspective, so we'll know which ones not to apply to a second time. Daughter's new list is longer than last year's, and I intend to keep both my hair and my sanity. We're looking for all of the free advice available. Given your post, with the "liking the last one best" scenario, you might want to "stack" your next visit with the colleges you,as parents, (and payers!)prefer in an inverse fashion.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 02:09 am: Edit

Just checking in...buried in e-mails and phone calls for work today. I've written up some notes about our visits...I think I'll open up a new thread called Notes From College Visits so that folks can post reviews of their visit experiences.

The dust is settling somewhat, though daughter wants until tomorrow to have a discussion...I think she's letting stuff settle and digest. She dropped both Mount Holyoke and NYU from further consideration and I have no quarrel with her thinking. I think perhaps Columbia is fading a bit with time. Barnard...she really liked the ballet class, so much so that I don't think she's fully considered other aspects of the school.

At this point her application pool is down to: Harvard, Smith, Yale, Columbia, Barnard, UC Irvine and maybe Georgetown, George Washington and Stanford.

I think the first decision is going to be which school she spends her "free" EA chip on: Harvard or Yale.

AutoD, *what* Northwestern debacle and where is it? I've started reading messages fresh...no way I can catch up on everything I missed.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 09:15 am: Edit

Thedad: re NW, you got in at the beginning, Northwestern Financial Aid, and then Out-of-State Auto Insurance. Reality 101! Hope you all get well rested after your trip.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 01:42 pm: Edit

TheDad - Come on, start that new message thread. I'm dying to hear about everyone's spring break college visits. I want details!
LOL!
Carolyn

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 04:03 pm: Edit

You know...business was a bit on the slow side in the 2-3 weeks before we left...now I'm dealing with an avalanche. This is good, because it ultimately means I can pay some bills but in the meanwhile it's playing havoc with my on-line time. It may take a couple of days until I can really breathe....

I started typing up the Harvard visit this morning before phones started ringing, etc.

Baksun.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Update. I took my favorite client--thedaughter--to lunch (sushi & garlic chicken)as a break from her studying for her AP exams and talked about what her thoughts/feelings about colleges were at this juncture, particularly with respect to where she was thinking of spending her Early Admission chip.

Her decision: Yale over Harvard and Stanford. Hasn't visited Stanford yet but prefers East coast at this point anyway. Prefers Yale because of strong undergraduate focus and access to some pretty good ballet via New Haven ballet. Funny, because when you read my trip reports, she nearly decided to bail on Yale because the guy running the info session was *such* a snot. But the tour, lunch with someone who had worked there for 20 years, and her impressions from talking to people and walking around all put it up there.

Thedaughter also confirmed what I suspected: that if Smith had been a better ballet experience for her, it would be a clear number one over everywhere else right now. I think this may take a while for her to sort out.

I'll get those visit reports posted. Promise. But tomorrow the daughter is taking off from studying for AP's and I'm taking her and her best friend to the Huntington Gardens for high tea, garden looking, and museum browsing (Gutenberg bible, first folio Shaksepeare et alia, Blue Boy, and my favorite painting there, titled something like Mrs. Siddons and the Tragic Muse). The Huntington is one of her most favorite places in the whole world. So tomorrow day is shot. And then I've been loaned a bootleg (Academy Award voter) DVD copy of "The Two Towers," so I suspect the evening will be shot as well.

By Jenniferpa (Jenniferpa) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Oo what a coincidence, my daughter's godmother is a collateral (I think that's the word - when you're descended from a sibling) descendant of Sarah Siddons!

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

TheDad - No worries, I was only kidding about pushing you to post. I certainly understand time constraints! I wish I could join you at the Huntington - truly one of the most beautiful places on earth.
Carolyn

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Ooh indeed, Jenniferpa. Do you know the painting? I don't think a print would do it justice. There are very subtle dark forms that emerge over time...and it helps to be viewing from the right distance away.

Carolyn, no prob. I enjoy the Huntington, too. But my daughter enjoys anywhere they have high tea...hello Smith and Yale!!! I'm more interestd in the old books; the daughter has appreciated them more since she had a couple of years of Latin.

By Jenniferpa (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 08:15 am: Edit

No, I'm not familiar with that portrait of the Divine Sarah. My friend (dd's godmother) has a miniature that's been handed down in the family.

I have on occasion thought my daughter has been "channeling" Mrs Siddons LOL. That would explain the histrionics!

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 08:38 am: Edit

High tea is an addictive experience. DD1 developed her habit at the Orangerie while on a study tour of England following her freshman year--and can't wait for her next fix. She's definitely an Anglophile anyway, but the tea is a hereditary tradition--this time of year we're drinking herbal. She says she'll be thinking of you as she drinks chamomile and ponders Rodin biographies for college class paper. I'll bet the setting, service, and company will all go a long way towards unwinding after your trip. Seems like the fatigue factor really catches up with one on about the third day back--first two days usually too busy to notice. Nerves and tempers generally frazzle on the third--unless someone's already vented previously. Have a great time.

By Jenniferpa (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 08:54 am: Edit

Not to be picky, or anything, (well yes, to be picky) but I think you're talking about Afternoon Tea, rather than High Tea, which is a cooked meal, somewhat analogous to supper. If it involves cumcumber sandwiches etc., it's definitely Afternoon Tea.
Jennifer
(English, despite being transplanted to the colonies 19 years ago)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 11:14 am: Edit

Whups. My error. Will there be anything else, ma'am?

AutoD, amazingly, we got through this entire trip without anyone doing much snapping at anyone. I don't have time to crash...yesterday's to-do list had 29 items on it, some of them longer term, and today's already has 16, most of which have *got* to be done today...on either side of museum visiting.

Yesterday brought the welcome news that missing one Saturday of rehearsal while gone did not cost my daughter at ballet: she's gotten her first pointe solo pas de deux for the Spring Show on May 17. Split cast, only one performance, but most of them are, so what the heck. The director is not happy when dancers miss rehearsal for any reason, including college visits, but we were very up front telling her in advance and experience has shown that if you're going to miss one, Easter Saturday is the one to miss.

By Jenniferpa (Jenniferpa) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Well, as long as you're bowing when you say that...
Otherwise, we are NOT amused (she says, moving in a stately, nay regal fashion away from the computer)

By Nyugrad (Nyugrad) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 07:29 pm: Edit

Welcome back, thedad- glad you and your family are home safely. I feel guilty that the only colleges that we visited so far are Columbia, Nyu, Harvard, MIT, Cornell, and CMU. Looking forward to hearing about Yale and the New Haven area. We meant to go, but didn't make it this time.Have a wonderful evening, relax, and enjoy!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 08:22 pm: Edit

to Jenniferpa.

Thanks, NYU grad. I really really really want to get the trip reports up but one thing at a time.

Looking to compare notes...I have the bad feeling we will have different takes on a couple of schools. After the info session, daughter didn't even take the NYU tour.

And thanks for the thoughts about "back home safely." Daughter does not like flying.

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 08:54 pm: Edit

So, Thedad, your daughter doesn't like flying, eh? Neither does mine. But ... what are these kids gonna do when they have to fly to and fro? This actually is one reason having our d in the state is kind of nice; I will, on occasion, take the trek down there so that I can (I hope, I hope!) take in an opera or symphony, roam around the campus a bit, and then drive home with her (maybe even picking up our son on the way back).

I think I'm looking at the next four years with the word "vacation for mom" in mind. 8-)

Never mind the fact that we won't have $$ for a vacation ... I'm gonna make this work. I will. (Too bad I couldn't get a gig or two down there. Hmmm. There's a thought.)

By Nyugrad (Nyugrad) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Yes, thedad, NYU is not known for being a school that rolls out the welcome mat or giving that"warm cozy feeling." However, being a native "new yawker" I was used to that. My enjoyment of the school was the fine psych program, and studying out in washington square park with the likes of Woody Allen, (or in my day) John and Yoko walking by. That was really great. Your daughter has good insight and seems to know what she wants. Having all boys myself, I really enjoy listening to the ballet stories-what dedication!

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 12:43 am: Edit

Congratulations to thedaughter! I'm so glad she gets to solo en pointe, and wasn't penalized by the missed practice. We can really identify with the not missing practice or having it have adverse results on any future aspirations. My girls' dance instructor was/is a major fan of competitions: DanceMasters, etc.,and was a stickler that you had to be dead or dying to be excused, or else you wouldn't be considered for future groups. Her specialty is tap, but also has many jazz, lyrical and ballet students. Alas, dance lessons was the first of our luxuries to be axed when the budget tightened, so our only participation now is watching recitals, and the annual Nutcracker. I love flying, but my mom hates it, so I can identify with "white knuckler" experiences.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 01:45 am: Edit

Hautbois, daughter is grimly prepared to fly when she needs to; she's less of a white-knuckler than she used to be.

NYUgrad, the funniest thing that happened while we were in NYC was that someone momentarily mistook *me* for Stephen Sondheim. LOL. I admit, for a very rough approximation in bad light and bad vision, that is what I kinda look like. Whereas I kept looking for Woody Allen.

Thanks, AutoD, but no True Names for D, please.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 01:56 am: Edit

NYUgrad, a point I'm going to raise when I post my visit reports is how flukey things can affect a prospects feeling about a school. None of us thought the grad student doing the info session was terribly sharp; D started keeping tick marks and said she said "Ummm" more than 80 times. Moreover, as a grad student, she didn't have a good feel or crisp explanation for the undergrad experience. Finally, NYU was the only school where thedaughter didn't feel a click with any of the other students that happened to be in the same info session. Particularly grating was the loud breathless gal who asked if there were sororities and then as the session was breaking up was on the cell phone to her dad in a loud and breathless voice telling about how awesome NYU was. The info session person's emphasis on employment was mirrored by the interest of at least two of the students asking questions. Another young man was there with arms crossed and eyes down for the whole session as his father asked questions. Another young woman sat in the corner opposite us and smoldered about something for the whole session...beats me.

Objectively, none of this says how good the school would be for thedaughter. But it helped form her opinion. She also didn't care for just how spread out the non-campus was and I don't think any of us were wild about a protocol of having to show I.D. to get into every NYU building.

My own quirky sidenote: the two schools dropped by the daughter, Mount Holyoke and NYU, had the worst websites imnsvho of the seven schools. Whoever came up with the color design for one of the key NYU pages with blue type on an orange background should be shot. Whereas Mount Holyoke's was just always missing key info or else made things hard to find.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 09:43 am: Edit

To the dad...I, too, am looking forward to your college visit trip reports when you get the time to post them. I have been away myself in NYC with my younger daughter (the performer). We are on school break and she was to have gone to Greece on a school trip (she is a freshman) but it was cancelled. But my junior daughter's trip to France was not cancelled. In fact, she is on the plane home from France now as I write and I have a long trip to make to Montreal today to be one of the pick up parents. So, I took the freshman daughter to NYC for a few days as a treat as she was left behind unexpectedly.

I have read what you wrote so far. Yes, it is interesting to see how some small things formed impressions with your daughter at some places. Ironically, I was walking around NYU a few days ago. My younger daughter has aspirations to go to Tisch for musical theater and knows many current students as well as students who have been admitted for next year, all of whom are friends of hers from her beloved summer theater camp. In fact, we ran into one on the street there (and some at Bdway shows we went to). While I am in no way looking at colleges with her yet....first things first....have junior daughter....she really enjoyed just walking around there to see what it was like. We could not get into Tisch cause of security. I do have to tell you that at many schools, student IDs are required to enter buildings...particularly city schools....this was strictest for us at UPenn out of the schools we visited with junior daughter. We did manage to enter buildings by asking people and so forth, but UPenn had security desks as well as the student ID passes to enter buildings.

Anyway, my daughter has not yet picked a first choice to utilize if she goes the EA or ED route which I think she may tend toward given the odds are improved. We have done the college visits and she is thinking it all over, plus has had SATs and stuff to take since then and of course is now in France. But I have a little inkling that Yale is right up there so it would be interesting if both our daughters end up doing that. I think I may have posted that while she has visited the schools on her list and likes them, she is now considering looking at Smith as well, which she had never considered originally as it is an all girls college. She realizes it has stuff she wants in a college and is in a consortium with colleges with boys nearby. So, hopefully in the fall, we will look at it as now she is interested in it and we do know current students from our high school there. She has seven schools on her list but we are thinking that while that should be enough (two we consider safeties pretty much), the odds at most of the schools seem so slim today that she is thinking it might be good to add two more and is going to look into MIT and Smith now which would bring it to nine. Smith might even border on safety for her or at least easier on her list. I will be interested to hear your viewpoints at these places.

While I know that ballet is your daughter's passion (congrats on the solo and I can relate on the dance teachers going nuts about missing which is exactly going on at the moment with my younger daughter's ballet teacher and she will go nuts when she finds out my daughter made All States for voice and will miss two ballet rehearsals close to the performance)....but I know your daughter is not majoring in dance but hopes to keep active in ballet so of course the school or area nearby the school must have a decent studio/program. But I am wondering by reading what you have written recently if she is choosing schools with that as a bigger priority than the actual department she is hoping to major in...has she visited those departments? I am thinking that might end up being even more important. My own daughter is making sure she can continue her EC passions at whichever college she goes to (it must have those things...one example, a ski team) but she is looking closer at the department she hopes to major in (architecture). Am just wondering your take on that. You mentioned the ballet classes she took but not the other but I realize you have not really written up the visits yet.

I thought of you, btw, as we were wandering around Washington Square Park and we saw a NYU tour walking about.

Anyway, looking forward to your take on the visits.
Susan

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit

Just wanted to let TheDad know we too are anxiously awaiting his trip reports as well!!! No pressure, no stress, (tapping fingers on desktop!). Yeah, we are the ones with no trips planned anytime in the near future (next hundred years or so) and am TOTALLY relying on you guys to come through!!!! Sad, sappy but true!!!

That said, and again no pressure on TheDad ......we are looking forward to all the info..........

Susan, my DD was able to whittle down that list of arch schools now that she knows she wants the 5 year professional program for arch and we are cross-listing that with the swim and dive schools. It has made it much more manageable and realistic. She has been able to look at the course requirements for many of the programs and have been able to make priority lists from there. Since she will have had Auto CAD Arch, Arch I,II,III after graduating high school (also comes with college credit from local uni) she doesn't want to spend first year in Intro to Arch and other classes similiar in nature to this.
She is also trying (I have no clue as to this) to identify the different styles/influences (architecturally) of each school to fit her style/goals. It all sounds like mumbo jumbo to me but makes perfect sense to her. Sounds like she is talking a foreign language but I can recognize bits and pieces of it.....the, as, house, roof.......
She has been using a couple other websites to get a feel for the type of students at each respective school and the work they want to accomplish and some of the focus those students have at those schools. I guess she got some some info on some changes taking place at some of them, some major profs, deans are leaving and going elsewhere, some retiring and I guess that makes a big difference in the arch world where one persons influence in a department can have a major impact.

DD's swim and dive is not so much her EC passion but rather her meal-ticket and she knows it. I guess she keeps that in mind every time her coach tells her to kick harder!! She has above a 4.0 with all honors classes about 4-5 other ECs at school that she is committed to full-time (officer and stuff), is a URM, and plays the trumpet (much to my dismay! and her bros) but she just has a feeling the swim and dive is what will pay-off in the end. She swims (USASwimming) and dives (USADiving), both JO...so high school swimming is just another practice, another meet. There aren't too many students in our area that participate in both and do well, so she is hoping a college coach will see her as a dual athlete able to score points for the team for one scholarship rather than needing two athletes, rare(because NOBODY is crazy enough to want to do it!) but it does happen. So we will see.

She wanted to do some of the summer programs in arch that had come her way this summer but swim and dive coach both nixed that idea. No breaks longer than 72 hours, my coment was "there are pools in other parts of the country, she could swim there" was scoffed at, I shut my mouth after that. Her bros are all leaving for the summer programs for 6 weeks, one in aerospace engineering the other to do cancer reasearch at a med school for National Cancer Institute. She wants to go as well, but again some of the programs are only introductory and pitching the coaches after they too had looked at the respective summer programs didn't help our case.(The Uni of Oregon prog. appears more in-depth, and had caught her interest.) They are both familiar with her course load and the classes themselves at high school (esp her arch) so my attempt to extricate her from their "clutches" was to no avail. She practices for both sports at the same pool so the coaches' join forces and we consistently lose.

So back to theDad, glad your back, happy to see you home safe and sound.......will be reading your novel soon!!!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:32 am: Edit

Susan, the short answer on not seeing Government classes--we were going to see one at Smith but it got scrubbed when Yale went on the itinerary--is that there's much more variation in the dance classes than the government classes. I've looked at the course catalogs for the names and kinds of Political Science courses available and they look good to me...specific faculty seems to a matter of pot luck no matter where you go. I suspect there's a good rumor mill at Smith with respect to which teachers in the other four colleges that are part of the consortium you would want to get. Smith has a few more of what I regard as fru-fru courses, like "Politics of Women in Latin America" but...shrug. Courses on things like political parties, elections, Congress, the Presidency, survey research (polling), the Supreme Court are pretty much going to be staples anywhere...throw in a couple of courses on International Relations and a course or two on Political Theory and you pretty much have D's desired major.

In another note, the ballet director is very strict: missing a rehearsal close to the performance would lose you a solo; missing two might get you bounced from the whole show...maybe not if there was no understudy...but it would hurt you in future casting at the minimum.

KwK, my to-do list expanded through some 50+ items yesterday but 30+ are now done and by the end of today I think I can start typing up the notes again. I'll be posting the college-only stuff here but if anyone says "Yo!" I'll e-mail the extended version when it's done, complete with meals-and-museum notes, etc.

By Nyugrad (Nyugrad) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Even back in the 1970s when I went to NYU, we had to show ID to get into the buildings. The most strict was the Bobst library. I think that at that time, it was to keep the locals away from the classrooms and from enjoying the air conditioning. Overall, the campus, though not striking, was pretty safe. I had visiting profs like Howard Cosell (sportscaster), Ed Koch(former mayor), Jimmy Brelin, Dr. Spock,and others, so it was interesting.Chem building is actually an historical landmark. It was the site of the triangle shirt factory fire.Just thought I'd throw that tidbit in. The tour guide sounds like a "yawn." Orientation leaders are chosen at random. (I used to be one). However, like the daughter of thedad, my son has no interest in becoming an NYUgrad. Pittsburgh is still my favorite college town. I also had the absolute pleasure of having the late Fred (mister) Rogers as a guest lecturer in a psych class.Great resources and great town.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Thedad and thedaughter : I'm so sorry about the online slip, and so glad you could get it edited out. I'll take particular care not to repeat the lapse in online protocol and etiquette.

A Caution to All Forum Readers: Please keep in mind-- I slipped up--to maintain posters' or offspring's anonymity-- regardless of how you gained the information, whether through personal acquaintance, online postings, or exchanged email. Some opinions expressed here for the edification or enlightenment of other readers could potentially prove damaging to the applicant's admission chances down the road if adcom's or interviewers (some do routinely lurk here, whether identified or not) pick up on them and connect the dots. Also be aware that online profiles make many posters easily identifiable, so consider all posts carefully.
PS: please sign us up for the extended notes on trips, thanks!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

AutoD, it could be a bit of unnecessary paranoia on my part but I think that the convention of anonymity can be useful.

The only thing I'd point out to an adcom member wasting time reading posts is that opinions can change over time...they certainly have in our case...and what is posted now may not reflect future intentions when the time comes.

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 11:48 am: Edit

Gee, I never even thought about keeping us a "secret" ... ah well, too late now! I've even mentioned that I teach at a couple of universities I think (even giving away their names, IIRC).

(My teaching, btw, is <i>extremely</i> minimal ... nothing to brag about. Just a few music students. So please don't think I'm attempting to sound uppity! I fear I might come across that way.)

I'll keep this privacy thing in mind for child #3, since child #2 is already admitted!

I did ask someone I know who works in the admissions dept. of a prestigious university if anyone reads these and that individual said that someone used to but he's gone and this person I know wasn't sure now if anyone was checking. (This particular school disliked another site and their message board, btw. Disliked them very much, in fact, for putting out information that wasn't necessarily true.)

Gee, it's more difficult to write, now that I'm trying to keep everything "secret".

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

I wish folks from the universities and colleges would read these boards, actually. It would be an affirmation that they care about what people think, and what their experiences have been.

I, for one, would like to see the most prestigious universities and colleges held accountable for their recruitment procedures.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Theasrhs, can you expand on the last a bit? Or even more than a bit?

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Thedad the only thing I can think of offhand along those lines is that some parents are very naive and think that when colleges especially competitive ones send info, that they have singled a student out as being "special".

My sister believed that the "handwritten" notes added onto form letters was actually "handwritten", and that all her daughter had to do was apply.
As a result she had only two safety schools neither a good fit and was not accepted at any of the schools that she really wanted and expected that she would be admitted to.

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Thedad: For a thorough analysis, you should check out "The Nation's" article in the latest, May 5 issue. I wrote a huge, long post about how it confirmed my personal experience, but Peter Sacks does a much better job at discussing and providing an analysis of this issue.

He reviews "The Gatekeepers: Inside the Admissions Process of a Premier College" and "The Early Admissions Game: Joining the Elite."

By Texas137 (Texas137) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 06:10 pm: Edit

The "latest, May 5 issue" of what publication?

By Theasrhs (Theasrhs) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Publication: "The Nation"

By Amd (Amd) on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 07:18 pm: Edit

I, for one, would like to see the most prestigious universities and colleges held accountable for their recruitment procedures.

I do too. Especially the practice of drumming up applicants so that their acceptance rate looks (impressively) low - something Rachel Toor points out (assuming of course that her points are valid). However, they have no incentive to do this. People flock to these universities and colleges (sometimes for the Chivas Regal effect) - they want to keep the numbers impressive. A lot of the fault lies with US News. They should rank based on how good the education is and not how low the admission rate is. My ramblings.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 12:15 am: Edit

For Katwkittens...I do appreciate the update with your daughter, given the fact that I also have a junior daughter interested in architecture who is also athletic. I agree that once your daughter came to the decision to do a five year program, it wittles the list down. That is basically what has happened with my own daughter. The original list of colleges gleaned from perusing several large college handbook directories was about 30 schools. By deciding on an academic focus (architecture), the list was brought into a more manageable size of appropriate schools that we could then visit. By visiting these and learning more and more about architectural programs, my daughter, as you know, has concluded that she will not go the five year BArch route but rather the preprofessional architecture major followed by MArch in grad school. Your daughter has made a good choice for her circumstance, I believe. It seems unusual to me that your high school has courses in architecture, as I had not heard of that in high school. But since you have that, your daughter can reasonably say she feels pretty certain she wants to go into this field. My own daughter feels pretty sure too but it is not like she has truly studied architecture so she feels more akin to most entering college students who go in with a major in mind but have yet to experience that subject first hand (well, this is true for things like architecture or engineering but not English or history). She is doing a year- long indep. study currently in drafting, mechanical drawing and AutoCad so that has helped solidify her interest and hopefully in late summer when she is home, she can be involved in some capacity in an architect's office. She just got home from France on a school trip and I noticed one thing she bought was a book of architecture terms and ideas, all in French (but she is good at French) so her heart seems in it. She also feels that by majoring in Architecture in a preprofessional program, she can still take a variety of other interesting college courses and she knows that in a five year program, so much of the coursework is defined already for the student. So, this choice seems right for her but I can see your daughter's choice as being a good one for her. So, it seems our kids won't be looking into the same colleges afterall. Which ones look good to your daughter? As you know we did visit the five year program at Cornell. And at one point, had the one at Carnegie Mellon on the list. Will your daughter explore these? How bout Washington in St. Louis? Your being from the west also is a different perspective. My daughter seems to want to stay on the east coast. Like you, a college's academic program is the first priority but she is definitely cross referencing that each college she chooses has the ECs that she wants to continue with. Some of her EC interests such as tennis, dance, and music are pretty much in all places. Ski racing is not but she has found it at least at the club level for each school that she wants. Brown, on her list, has a varsity ski team and if she does indeed look into Smith, it also does.

I hear ya on the coaches thing. I find coaches and instructors in the various ECs my kids do as being very diehard (which to degree I really truly understand) but sometimes it is extreme and the kids have lives and it is not like they are asking to goof off and miss for no good reason but sometimes when they are doing everything good and right, so to speak, the coaches or directors still are not very understanding....not all of them, but some can be really tough this way. For instance, for one sport, the coach would not allow her to miss a game to attend All States in music which is a high honor she made for a subject she takes in school (band). This is merely one tiny example and I cannot list them all but in that one sport which she had done from age six (softball), she ultimately switched to tennis team (where she also excels and is the number one player) cause of some of these types of attitudes that made it so unworkable. The tennis coach was thrilled to have her (he says she defected to his team...lol) and totally understands she must go to All States and is happy for her, same with her annual dance recital (has danced her whole life). So, I know how these things go.

I think that while your daughter did want to do a summer architecture program, she will be fine and have ample time to explore the field in high school and college. Her sports I guess are in high gear in summer so she has to make this choice. My own daughter would enjoy those summer academic programs I am sure but has opted every summer to do programs that are not academic in nature but allow her to pursue other passions....performing arts for many summers, travel trips, and tennis and foreign cultures. I do not think your daughter needs the summer architecture program as far as a credential in any way but would have liked to do it. But at least she is getting some coursework in high school to allow her to find out how much she enjoys this field.

Congrats to your daughter for her success in swimming and diving...sports that are not common at all in our neck of the woods. I bet her accomplishments in these areas will look very nice when it comes time to the admissions game. So, the summer architecture programs would have as well, but they will see her huge committment to these double sports and that is substantial.

So, stay in touch on everything. Next up for us is another round of SATs in a week, followed later on by more SATII tests....just seems like a lot on top of regular school work and exams, and we are in high gear with tennis team season and end of year stuff in dance performances and All States in Music, etc. etc. That time of year.

Susan

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 08:31 am: Edit

Hautbois: You don't come across as pretentious, nor do most other posters. I do routinely skip one frequent poster, however, who gives me the hives, and may deprive myself of worthwhile information in the process, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to avoid the corresponding rise in blood pressure and bile.

By Amd (Amd) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 09:40 am: Edit

Autodidact,

I hope that it is not me (who gives you the hives). Assuming so, I won't be able to sleep now, not knowing who that is ;-)

amd

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 11:33 am: Edit

I guess I shouldn't have been a bee-keeper.

By Autodidact (Autodidact) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 09:21 pm: Edit

amd and Thedad: Neither of you are the busybee who I'd like to tell to buzz off or swat, and I suspect the real poster has the hide of a rhinoceros and would never recognize themselves.Of course there may well be others who feel the same way about me--I can live with that, and encourage them to skip any offensive posts.

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:40 am: Edit

Bees? Where???? Ouch!!

Hey Susan,
Thanks for the note back and the sharing of parenting woes' !! Yes, DD had Wash U top of her list esp with the schloars program but they only offer a MArch, no BArch. She was disappointed, but have kept plowing through the rest of the ones on the list. The "List" by the way is looking very bizarre... Cornell, Univ of Oklahoma, K State, Carneige Mellon, Cooper Union, Univ of Cincinnati, Temple..... K State is already out, no swim and dive..... that being a partial list expands as she adds new schools as others drop off for no swim and dive. LSU, Arkansas, on the list but I don't know if these are places she wants to live....UGH, no offensive to any current residents...but she has been born and until recently a Cali beach girl so this is getting real interesting, real fast. Cal Poly SLO is another choice but we would need to move back so she could be a CA resident again and I don't see that happening any time in the near future....trees sprouting in the back yard bearing money fruit.
Other schools are in the northeast/ Syracuse, Pratt, Cooper Union, RPI, NY/NJ Institute of Tech...and like you said swim and dive, not so much there. Auburn and Rice HUGE swim schools don't know if she can get into the "Best". Maybe but they are the best along with Stanford (no Arch) so she is trying to be realistic. These schools along with ASU, Texas, Georgia and Florida produce Olympians, so again she is being realistic. She wants her career to be bulding something not soaking in chlorine all day!!
But as a sophomore her coaches say she has 2.5 more years to develop. Oh, great.

Yes, we too are in the hectic part of the year, DS a junior has SAT I this Saturday too, and we have 2 swim meets (1 JO, the other prelims for hs state, and 2 dive meets...prelims and qualifiers) 3 on the same day...I will be driving and driving and driving....I can't wait for football season, NOT!

As to keeping their (kiddos) identities a "secret" I can't remember where I hid Christmas presents last year or where I put the keys to the car last night....there is no way I would ever be able to keep anything straight!! So if we are recognized by our goofy and chaotic life, well great, less explaining we have to do later!!!

And to the TheDad....can't find my trip reports....I know we added to your 600+ TO DO list....actually take your time, and would love to hear where you ate, yes I am living vicariously through all your travels!!!

Another poster put it somewhere on the parents forum about the wisdom and wit and generous advice found on this particular board and I would have to whole-heartedly agree. Without all of you, my kids and I would have blinders on. And this certainly isn't a process I want to wade through ignorant or alone. So again, thanks for all the info AND trip reports!!!

Kat