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Good idea, Calmom.

To the moderators: This post starts out about pointe shoes (an obsession with us ballet parents, because they cost almost as much as college tuition) but does get to college after that!

Calmom, I would suggest your daughter try a different pair of Gaynors. They have many, many different boxes, shanks, etc. My daughter has no trouble working the foot, but we went down to Gaynor's headquarters in NYC for a lengthy fitting. And the very day she began quietly wearing them to her lessons her teacher, who on principle hates Gaynors, remarked that her feet and legs looked especially good! They are not a good choice for the lazy dancer who wants, as Thedad says, to "cheat." But for the strong dancer, if you can find a good fit, they are very comfortable. And while my dd was going through a pair of Freeds in 1 1/2 weeks last year, she has worn the same pair of Gaynors since Nutcracker this year! Imagine!

Did anybody read the article about Gaynors that was in The New Yorker a month or so ago? Talked all about the ballet world's prejudices against them -- and about the professional dancers who love wearing them.

Getting back to the subject of college, I was trying to think where else in NY. Marymount Manhattan has some great dance people on the faculty, but academically it's not up there. Fordham and Alvin Ailey have a combination program, but same problem academically. Joffrey's program with the New School just fell apart; I guess the New School thought Joffrey's facilities were too shabby. NYU has a dance conservatory -- extremely competitive -- but dd does not want to go to college for dance. She wants a liberal arts education that includes dance.

We definitely do hear good things about Duke's program, but dd does not want to go that far away, though she may end up applying RD.

I guess the reason so many colleges have modern is that 1) it's a tradition that ballet dancers don't go to college until their careers are over and 2) maintaining the muscle strength to dance on pointe means taking many classes a week, and this is time-consuming.

To Thedad and Calmom, when we visited Barnard we observed Allegra Kent's class. Obviously, she is a big draw! The only thing is, based on my perusal of the catalog I believe she has a visiting professorship. Barnard has had other eminent dancers in that same visiting professorship before. So...I don't think it's guaranteed that she will be there when our dd's are ready for college. But it seems likely they will have someone of her caliber. I think it would be important to find out whether that visiting professorship always goes to a ballet person, though. Maybe we'll ask.

By SoozieVT on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 10:56 am: Edit

I rarely post here and mostly have been reading these threads for a while cause my oldest daughter is a junior and we are immersed in the college search. However, I just read this thread which caught my eye as both my daughters dance, and my younger one, a freshman in high school, is very immersed in dance. She hopes to go to college for musical theater which is her passion. Anyway, she does study ballet and pointe and she recently got Gaynor Mindens as well and likes them. I know her pointe teacher was not too excited about her getting those at first but it seems to be working well. We had bad fitting experiences prior to going someplace where these where fit to her.

I am not that up on dance programs in college, as my oldest just likely will participate extracurricularly in dance when in college and my younger one will go for musical theater programs (has eyes on Tisch). But I do know girls from our studio who go to college for dance. And a few have gone to Barnard or Columbia and I do believe they have taken ballet there. Actually, a stage director my youngest daughter has had out of NYC for some professional productions she has done, is a ballet choreographer and was teaching adjunct at Barnard/Columbia in ballet when my daughter had him as a director. Some girls from our dance studio have gone to Goucher (obviously less challenging school academically). One went on to Wesleyan. And there is Juilliard of course, which is not a liberal arts school.

Susan (mom of dancers)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 11:58 am: Edit

Hi, Calmom. Where are you located? We're in Santa Monica.

AP, as I said, Gaynors are a matter of theology.
My wife was approached by someone she works with at UCLA who had read the New Yorker article before we did and he asked, "Is there really a big dispute about ballet shoes called--" My wife, intejected, "Gaynor Mindens? Oh, yeah."

As for colleges, it's a pity that NYU won't let non-majors take the ballet classes. Oh, well.

Daughter, G, doesn't want to go to Duke, either. She's used to being the moderate kid on the very liberal campus and the idea of being a flaming liberal in a conservative area gives her the hives...not necessarily the campus itself but the greater environment.

I think a lot of colleges offer modern because it's cheap: no barres, no mirrors, even flooring is more forgiving across a wider range, and the student's don't have to buy pointe shoes.

Btw, AP, LOL about the cost of ballet vs. college. I figure with the classes, summer intensive (including transportation), and pointe shoes, leotards, etc., the cost of ballet is close to $7K a year. (Classes = six technique, three pointe, one variations, one pas de deux per week. Rehearsals extra, of course.)

There's no way she'll be able to maintain that level of work in college. I figure four technique classes a week--two for credit, two extra audited--is going to be about it. I worry about the muscle strength issue...she may have to sneak some extra classes somewhere else. I also hope that she manages to have pas de deux somewhere because she really likes it but I haven't seen it mentioned in the college course descriptions.

I figure that guest teachers and visiting professorships will not be uncommon. G has been lucky to get some good diversity already. Her director and one of the teachers is Yvonne Mounsey, ex-NYCB principal for Balanchine; her favorite teacher is Julie Whittaker, ex-Winnipeg Royal Ballet and, as you might expect, RAD. (A very sad thing: her old favorite teacher, Rosemary Valaire, died in 1997; she was also RAD out of Royal Ballet itself.) Julie even taught them a Bournonville ballet a couple of Spring shows ago...and then the summer programs give her different pitches to hit.

As for the questions about Barnard, I'll post our experiences and the answers we get when we get back from NYC...aieee! seven weeks from today we'll be getting ready to leave Boston for Northampton at this very hour.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Cross-posted...I had to go away for a couple of hours and I left my computer logged on....

Hi, SoozieVT. By any chance are you in Burlington?
One of the VT companies had an audition here last year for a summer program there.

By SoozieVT on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Hey there.....I do not live in Burlington but live about an hour from there and my husband works around there. We live in a ski resort town. I am guessing that the ballet audition that took place near you was for Burklyn Ballet....a summer intensive that is held at Johnson State College (not in Burlington but maybe 1 1/4 hours from there). We know some kids who have done it. Some girls from our studio do an intensive at Bates in summer. While my 14 yr. old daughter has done ballet and pointe for years, her ambition is not ballet but rather musical theater. Her summers are spent out of state at a theater camp, though she also studies dance there as well. She takes 13 hours of dance per week and our studio is 25 miles away. She takes ballet/pointe, jazz, lyrical, tap repertory company and is in the jazz repertory company (performance groups). My older daughter is in tap repertory and hip hop, has never done ballet...mostly done jazz, tap, lyrical and hip hop and also a lot of musical theater. So, while ballet is in my younger one's life, it is not like she is going to go into ballet. She enjoys ballet but also sees it as the basis for technique for most styles of dance, which is necessary as well in musical theater. By the way, she has done shows in Burlington a lot and takes voice there. Vermont is a rural state and we are on the road a LOT for both my girls' activities....stuff is real spread out.

I have enjoyed reading your posts by the way. Right now, I am immersed in the 16 year old's college search though I do read of your dancer daughter and it makes me think more of my freshman daughter and what her college search might be like (for theater). My 16 year old is also involved a lot in many facets of the performing arts but enjoys these equally with her sports and is not planning to pursue a degree in performing arts but hopes to continue in those areas in an extracurricular fashion in college. Right now, she is looking into majoring in architecture for college. We are leaving in two days for another college visit trip....this time to see Yale and Connecticut College (the latter by the way has dance).
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 02:46 pm: Edit

bump


Just read this, Susan, but gotta run.

By George on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Has anyone looked at Vassar?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 08:25 pm: Edit

I think Vassar was another school that did not have any particularly high levels of indigenous or reasonably accessible ballet.

Susan, Burklyn it was...not a very competitive program, or so it seemed.

Not to make you want to murder me but we live four blocks from the ballet studio, which is ten minutes in the afternoon from the high school which is seven minutes in the morning from home. In the greater L.A. area's traffic no less!

Theater is great. Since my daughter is unlikely to read this, I'll say that I think she has more potential in theater than dance. But the acting workshops around here are oriented towards commercials, TV, and contemporary movies...and she's got a period piece sensibility. Watched SENSE AND SENSIBILITY entranced when she was eight; had tears streaming down her cheek while watching TIMON OF ATHENS at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival when she was ten. She Gets It and her movement, inflection, gesture, etc. are natural gifts. She gets a lot of the more "acting" parts in some of the ballets.

But the dance will help your younger daughter even if it's not an end in itself. We go to some of the local private high school with great theater department productions and you can pick out the girls who have had dance just by the way they move across stage.

I'd be pleased to know how the trip to Yale goes.
Good luck.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 02:33 am: Edit

Thedad, we're in the SF bay area, my daughter attends school and currently dances at SF studios. She's kind of in-between ballet studios right now, juggling the ballet with her first year of high school, also in the high school musical theatre production. Plus she's choreographing a dance with 10 students for the school spring show - that's a task in itself, as all the student choreography is done on their own time, usually on weekends. She really doesn't know what direction she will take in college, except that she wants some flexibility and she wants a real, academic education - not just studying dance. She had all A's in academic classes her first semester, but it really is too soon in her high school career to tell where she will be heading in terms of the college program.

One problem we are aware of and have heard from many quarters is that the level of challenge in many collegiate dance programs, especially for ballet, just doesn't match what the students who have trained with good studio programs have been getting. I think the colleges favor modern because it is, quite frankly, easier (more foregiving for variations of body type and technical ability). But then the demands of ballet really do make it a tough choice for a kid, like mine, who says she has the dedication, but not the discipline. But there's no substitute in my mind for ballet for foundational training - even if she goes toward modern dance later on, the tecnique, artistry, and general knowledge and understanding of the art she has gained from her years of ballet training is unmistakable.

I really don't mind paying for the pointe shoes if only she would settle down and find one brand that she likes(!).

By Marcie (Marcie) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 11:33 pm: Edit

My daughter is just finishing auditioning for musical theatre programs, and I did a LOT of research into programs over the last year. Dance is not as big a component as you might think in many programs, which is odd considering the level of dance in Broadway productions.

Re college level ballet programs, a family friend who attended the SF Ballet preprofessional school (not sure if that is the correct name, but she moved to SF to attend it) ages 16-17, now attends Indiana University majoring in ballet. She likes it there, and takes other classes (like calculus). Her boyfriend is also majoring in ballet but hopes to attend medical school. That program might be could for Calmom's daughter.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:42 am: Edit

Indiana University, U of Utah, and Butler (also in Indiana) have great dance programs with good ballet. They're also not very competitive academically.

Average SAT at U of Utah is something like 1040;
Indiana U's average SAT is about 1100, Butler's average is about 1070.

Marcie, the thing with Broadway dance is that the dance requirements aren't at nearly the same level as would be required for a ballet or modern company...a lot more room for "error," a lack of precision and/or placement...a Broadway choreographer isn't going to have a fit because your fingers are like _this_ instead of like _that_, the difference being small if you're not used to looking for it.

Yes, San Francico Ballet's company school is excellent.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 01:37 am: Edit

I'm finding this thread very helpful. As a parent of a 9th grader, it's actually rather comforting to know that there are excellent dance programs at less-selective colleges as well as at some top colleges like Barnard or Bryn Mawr - it means that my daughter will have a good array of choices whether or not she ends up with a perfect GPA.

And on the pointe shoe controversy, seems like the kid went downtown trying on pointe shoes without me the other day, she refuses to reconsider the Gaynors and has announced that she has found HER shoe, the Bloch Serenade.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 02:31 am: Edit

She's now a chip off the old Bloch, eh?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 08:59 am: Edit

I am enjoying this thread as well in that I have dancing daughters, plus have one who wishes to pursue musical theater in college.

I am almost laughing at the Bloch Serenade story cause that was the shoe that my duaghter had before this one (Gaynor Mindens) and the teacher did not like them and they were too soft. So, she switched in the opposite direction than your daughter.

To the Dad....while what you say is true somewhat of Broadway dance....like they will not be looking for the same things as a ballet company would (ie. fingers just so,etc.)....technique is critical....and the training must include various disciplines...they want ballet training, jazz, and tap....so you must be good at several forms of dance. And of course, if you want to be more than a dancer on Broadway, you must be a triple threat....great singer, great dancer, and great actress.
Susan

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 09:46 am: Edit

Yes, the triple-threatness of mt is the trade-off, a breath vs. depth kind of thing. Reminds me of a joke that I'll post here some time when things are slow and I don't have to run.

Btw, Sooze, did your keyboard break?
The post was so short!!!

By Brickyard (Brickyard) on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Any one with a dancing senior girl looking into an alternative year? She is not ready for college after 3 years at performing arts HS. Any advice, suggestions or experience??

By Michmom (Michmom) on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 12:25 pm: Edit

I too have a dancing daughter. She just completed her freshman year at the University of Michigan. Michigan also is an audition only program. When she started class in the fall, she had not yet auditioned for the dance program, but she showed up for several classes on the first day and they let her take them. She has since decided not to major in dance. She did not like the modern classes at all. Tap and Jazz are in the musical theater department and these are her real loves. She was told by the head of the dance program that they will allow her to take classes without being a major and she plans to continue in this manor. She also is planning to supplement her dance studies by attending local dance studios.
It might interest you to know that she is currently teaching both a creative movement class and a teen jazz class at an Ann Arbor studio, so kids with these skills can get jobs.
We looked at both Barnard and Wash U. in St. Louis. Older sib had gone to Wash U and so she decided she did not want to go there, much to my regret. She went to visit Barnard and did not like it, so Michigan won out. I think the other two had dance programs that would have met her needs better.

By Marie123 (Marie123) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Thedad:
How was your trip?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Marie, it was pretty good. I'll be posting trip notes in a day or two. I'll be able to start working on them tomorrow or maybe even tonight...they're all written longhand, just need editing/typing.

Look for a new thread titled something like Notes on College Visits.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 06:20 am: Edit

Browsing at Barnes & Noble today, I picked up a book called The Performing Arts Major's College Guide by Carol Everett. (The link will take you to Amazon). My daughter was very happy to have it. It is basically a comprehensive list of colleges with dance, theatre, & music programs. Not much in-depth info, but my daughter's in 9th grade -- so I told her it was just a starting point to find which colleges have strong programs.

The list seems to be very comprehensive, but the book is 5+ years old, so not completely up-to-date. For example, we were surprised that it did not list Fordham, given the strength of the combined Fordham/Alvin Ailey program -- but that's a new program, that only graduated its first class last year. So again - I told my daughter to use the list as a starting point reference only, not to exclude other possibilities.

Anyway, I thought I would post here because I definitely would recommend this book to parents of high schoolers who are beginning to look at colleges.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 11:35 am: Edit

We know someone in the Fordham/Alvin Ailey program who's graduating this year and has been very very happy with it. Fwiw.