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Did anyone see this show? It was a report on cheating in high schools, with an emphasis on use of cellphones (to take pictures of notes and use them on the test), text messaging (to get answers from the kid across the room), and plagiarizing from web sources.

What bothered me a little about the show (I flipped around a bit so I missed some of it) was that they seemed to be trying to blame what they characterized as widespread cheating on "society today" and the pressures kids are under, as well as the example set by corporations and investment banks.

I think this is a bit off -- we all know people cheated way back before there were high tech ways to do it (by writing answers on your hand, for example, and I remember one kid who CONSTANTLY cheated off me in a HS class by turning around to look at my paper -- I'm embarrassed to say I was not assertive enough to do anything about it!). And if there had been high-tech gadgets that made cheating easier then, my guess is that plenty of people would have used them! Wonder what others think.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Rhonda, when I was kid, I knew some kids who stole 8-track tapes, cassetes, even albums from stores. Yeah, shoplifting was a big problem in the PXs and department stores.

Now the big deal is about stealing music and movies and stuff off the internet with copyright issues. Making copies on a copy machine of photos, books, papers.

Stealing and cheating are as old as time. But in the last several years, technology has been coming up with tools that make all high tech now. Heck, most of the kids I know wouldn't deign to read a "cliff notes" booklet. Apparently there are all kinds of sites that are just one click away. You can plagerize or read your summaries as you IM away or go into a chatroom.

By Brownlovespink (Brownlovespink) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit

I feel the same way. They put up this image of kids today as terrible, and like we're going to bring the downfall of civilization because we're such terrible people. I honestly feel as long as there is this much pressure for kids to get perfect grades and do so many other things, there will be cheating in schools.

By Ellemenope (Ellemenope) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 06:50 pm: Edit

I saw just a portion of the show. It's amazing what kids can program onto an HP calculator!

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 08:31 pm: Edit

my history teacher told us a story of a girl who was caught plagiarizing five years ago. she wrote the paper perfectly fine (historically accurate, well-written) but the problem was with how she cited her sources. the page numbers that she specified in her endnotes did not correlate with the information she found in the books (my history teacher is very meticulous and checks this kind of stuff)...she probably lost her note cards and couldn't remember the exact page numbers so simply made them up. anyway, before the school could expel her, she withdrew.

By Arow (Arow) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Yes,

Most of your kids are cheating and you really can' do anything about it. Especially in a competitive high school, almost every student cheat at least once in their high school years.

I never cheat, but its only because I don't want to. I did copy homeworks before but if you count that cheating, so be it.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 09:45 pm: Edit

If my kids cheated in high school they did a lousy job of it. The guys didn't get very good grades and usually did not think enough about their assignments to even bother turning anything in--cheating would have been some sign of effort on their parts. The girls worked danged hard, and I often worked with them so they would learn the material well. Also had tutors for them. If they cheated,they certainly put a lot of work into it. They needed to do their assignments and study hard to learn the materials as they were not quick studies. I was not in a cheating crowd in high school or college, neither was my husband. I don't know how widespread cheating is, but I don't think "everyone cheats". I have heard this regarding nearly every discipline, but I have known many fine people who do not cheat. The type of work I did was a blank check for cheating but most people did what they were supposed to do. I hear alot about tax cheats but many of my friends are fastidious about filling out those forms accurately. For many of us it does not occur to us to cheat, and I have found that it is much simpler to do things honestly. I am not sure how anyone can get an accurate count on who is cheating and who is not.

By Over30 (Over30) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 09:56 pm: Edit

Arow, I can say, unequivocably, that my children don't cheat. They don't want to and don't need to. In fact, I don't believe it would ever occur to them. There was a discussion this morning about that tv show, and someone said about my youngest, "who would he cheat off of?"

I also don't believe my children are particularly unusual, at least among their friends.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 02:10 am: Edit

One of the types of cheating the show focused on was plagiarism of students cutting & pasting the content of their papers from internet sites, or downloading term papers from the internet. Of a group of 6 high school students interviewed who were adamantly opposed to cheating, 2 were caught plagiarizing an assignment that way. After being caught, they were full of excuses about all their other course work, and being up late at night needing to get the paper done.

I believe that (1) that sort of stuff is widespread and (2) some very bright kids actually don't know any better. I mean, I think that a lot of kids and adults think that if something is posted on the internet, it's free for them to take & reuse.

One of the most outrageous things on the program was a profile of an Ivy League student who hires himself out to write papers for other students and to physically take tests for them. He has even been hired to write college app essays. So basically, there are enough rich cheaters at Ivy League colleges to keep him in business. (Word has gotten out, so he has written papers & for students at multiple Ivy & high prestige colleges).

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:15 am: Edit

Is cheating really that much worse than lying? If so, why are the consequences for cheating so high, when schools hardly punish at all (if ever) for lying?

By Calmom (Calmom) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:30 am: Edit

The point of the show was that there are no real consequences of cheating. Possibly consequences for getting caught, but the suggestion was that teachers & profs deliberately look the other way. The high school kids that were caught were essentially trapped for purposes of the program, and the "consequence" was that they had to take home their papers & have their parents sign them. One kid said he got grounded for a couple of weeks.

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 09:28 am: Edit

Just for the sake of discussion, there seem to be two different types of things going on at our local high school with regard to cheating. One is the type that pretty much everyone agrees is cheating--bringing in hidden material on tests, plagiarizing research papers. That goes to the kids' competence in the subject and claiming to have mastered material that hasn't been mastered.

There is something else, which I call "survival tactics". That is the occasional use of other kids' homework to finish an assignment when the kids have been overloaded with tests, projects, or extracurriculars and the teachers are basically almost lording it over them, saying "my course is just as important as the 3 tests and two performances you have this week, and so I'm going to force you to pull an all-nighter in order to keep up in class." I am not so sure that I consider this cheating.
This issue of teachers overworking kids just for the sake of some kind of ego-related or punitive mindset has been a publicly discussed issue around here and the school has instituted a few "no-homework" weekends, which a few teachers flaunt.

By Valpal (Valpal) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit

That's really odd...

I started a thread in this forum at about 3:30 am entitled, "High School Cheating", broaching this exact subject. But now it is nowhere to be found. Weird...I wonder what happened to it... Did the mods delete it?

Anyway, concerning this show (which unfortunately, I missed), my D's AP U.S. Government class had a rather sprited discussion about the show. It turns out that the high school where the kids were busted by turn-it-in.com, is actually in a neighboring town. My understanding is that the kids featured in the segment tried to justify their actions by pointing to corporate corruption, such as that of Worldcom and Enron, and political dishonesty (ala, Clinton/Lewinsky), saying that what they (the kids) had done was "not that big a deal".

I remember my high school experiences with cheating being primarily "ignorance based". Until I took a college prep research writing class, no one ever explained what actually constituted plagiarism when writing papers. We'd always thought that as long as we didn't write it "word for word", it wasn't plagiarism...

Otherwise, I don't recall people in my high school taking a cavalier attitude toward cheating. I don't think sophisticated, coordinated efforts, such as those used by kids on the show, was very widespread. I think most of us would have been too ashamed to initiate such an operation.

I wonder how this apparent widespread phenomenon of cheating effects the enforcement of college honor codes. Most of our children will be attending institutions who take great pride in their traditions of academic and personal honor and integrity. Surely, kids who think nothing of cheating in high school aren't going to suddenly place a primium on honesty once they enter a top college.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

My daughter did not cheat but she was always the kid that other kids wanted to cheat off of. She always had to cover her tests carefully, etc. It also really irked her that her ranking was affected by people who did cheat. She got into great schools on her own merit and now she feels really good about the fact that she got there on her own.

By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 04:01 pm: Edit

I'm STILL ignorant about what constitutes plagiarism when writing papers, I guess. Earlier this year my d wanted to call her AP US History paper about Lincoln's election ' "Inaugurating a Revolution": Lincoln and blah blah whatever.' She hesitated because it was a 3-word phrase quoted directly in the body of the paper, from a reference work she cited properly in both footnotes and bibliography. Great title, I told her, and so clever to incorporate and emphasize a phrase from the paper itself! She promptly burst into tears because she was afraid it would be considered cheating to use the phrase in the title without attribution, and she didn't know if she could put a footnote in the title (which does seem a tad ridiculous). So she went for another title and left me wondering what else I don't understand about academics today.

But while we're discussing cheating - how about teachers who cheat? How is it possible to read and grade a laboriously-produced 10-page AP history paper with no comments of any kind except "Great work" and the grade on the title page? Do I really think this teacher read all 90 papers carefully and gave careful consideration to all 90 grades? Um, nope.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Here is a link that should be helpful in explaining what plagiarism is and how to avoid it.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_plagiar.html.

As for reading 90 10 page papers, give the teacher a break. That's 900 pages: about the length of three Ph.D. dissertations, and probably far worse written. Yes, students need feedback, but consider the time it takes to read a single paper then grade it and provide thoughtful constructive comments. A minimum of 30 minutes each, multiplied by 90, that's 45 hours. And then, the teacher still has to prepare lesssons for next day and the rest of the week for different grades and doing various administrative duties. I don't envy high school teachers.

By Gianscolere (Gianscolere) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit

"But while we're discussing cheating - how about teachers who cheat? How is it possible to read and grade a laboriously-produced 10-page AP history paper with no comments of any kind except "Great work" and the grade on the title page? Do I really think this teacher read all 90 papers carefully and gave careful consideration to all 90 grades? Um, nope."

my history teacher is grading only 20 papers (for 2 history sections), and he says he spends at least 1 1/2 hours on each one. he also writes a 2-3 page feedback for each one to help students improve for their next paper and spot checks the endnotes (whether or not page numbers correlate with the info that was cited)...and looks for the student's own analysis which should not be based on any secondary source.

By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Thanks, Marite, for the link - much needed and much appreciated.

I'm all in favor of cutting hs teachers some slack, and I appreciate that their jobs are often thankless. BUT - I don't think it's right that my kid practically hemorrhaged with the effort of producing her first "real" college-level paper, putting in god knows how many hours, only to receive exactly 11 characters in response from the teacher. What kind of teaching *is* that, exactly? How will my daughter's writing/research skills improve without at least a cursory evaluation? How can we expect kids *not* to figure out that it's really all about the grade when the teacher clearly thinks it is?

I don't think that lengthy projects should be assigned unless the teacher is prepared to spend a great deal of time evaluating them. Yes, it's demanding, but so was writing the paper - and the teacher didn't have to do much grading while her classes were working on the assignment.

Gianscolere - that's a rare gem of a teacher you have - are you in private school? My oldest d actually lucked into someone similar when she took AP English in our public hs - he'd cover the back of her title page with comments, analysis, suggestions, etc. So it can happen - but I guess not often.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Remember that Gian's teacher has only 20 students. You mentioned 90 papers. Gian's teacher spent 1 1/2hr on each paper. That would come to 135 hours on a single assignment--again not counting class prep or other assignments. Gian goes to a private school that costs about $30k. This allows the school to hire more teachers to deal with 20 students in two sections. Many public high schools have twice as many students in a single class.

My son had exactly the same lack of response to his paper as your child. I think, however, the experience of doing the paper was extremely worthwhile. Despite the lack of feedback, it is far better that he have that experience than none. It taught him a lot. In 7th grade, my S had a teacher who provided lots of feedback. He burned out in less than three years (the drop- out rate for teachers in my state is 3 years one month--the length of time it takes to achieve tenure).

By the way, our hs's library has a website with tons of links for doing research. That's where I found the link I posted.

By Daffodil22 (Daffodil22) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:25 pm: Edit

I find it interesting that some posts have said "my children don't cheat" and saying that there is a "cheating crowd". How would you know if your child cheats unless he/she gets caught? In my HS, the cheating crowd is not the laid back hippies, but rather the students with 4.0's and under immense pressure to succeed. The 20/20 special highlighted this also. Many of the ones interviewed were honors students with several AP classes. As long as there is pressure, there will be cheating.
However, I have never witnessed text messaging or photographing exams. Usually cheating takes the form of crib sheets and calculator programs.

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:37 pm: Edit

When I was in high school (in prehistoric times), cheating took the form mostly of whispering questions and getting information via the same means. One of my teachers regularly intoned in the middle of a test: "inspiration is supposed to come from on high, not sideways."

The same French baccalaureat exam used to be administered to all lycee students at the same time of the day until someone found out that it was possible for a student to walk into the exam site in French Indochina, take note of the questions, and phone them back to a student in France. The first student, of course. was destined to flunk (a fate shared by 1/3 to 1/2 of all candidates anyway), but this strategy bought about a 12-hour headway to the student in France. After this loophole was discovered, it was decided that different exams would be administered to students in different time zones (the same strategy is used by the College Board for its own exams).

By Jolt21 (Jolt21) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:43 pm: Edit

thank you Daffodil22...i thought that that was interesting to...i can only think of 1 person in our top ten kids who has never cheated on a regular basis (i dont think she has at all, but idk)...

anyways, kids going high tech? where? definetly not where i live..all the kids i know that cheat are all so sneaky about it, that they dont need high-tech stuff...my cousin told me that 2 years ago when he took his AP Physics exam, the whole group had a hand system going on during the test, and his AP english exam group just passed around a piece of paper...its that simple ladies and gents...sometimes the easiest way to do it is the most obvious..i have only seen somenoe program something into the calculator once or twice..

By Unluckycharms (Unluckycharms) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:45 pm: Edit

"But while we're discussing cheating - how about teachers who cheat? How is it possible to read and grade a laboriously-produced 10-page AP history paper with no comments of any kind except "Great work" and the grade on the title page? Do I really think this teacher read all 90 papers carefully and gave careful consideration to all 90 grades? Um, nope."

You said it yourself, the teacher has 10 90-page papers to grade. How do you expect him to spend more than 20 or 30 minutes on each paper? That equates to an insane amount of time invested on his part. Give him a break. Besides, most experienced teachers are able to read through an essay once and then give it the proper grade. If you wanted feedback for the paper so badly, your child could have easily stayed after class and asked the teacher.

Anyways, back on topic with cheating. At my school, cheating is very widespread. Not in the form of text messaging or photographing exams - that doesn't happen.

The way it works out, there are more than one type of honors and AP class, i.e. people who are in 1st Period Honors Global take 5th Period Honors English, and 1st period Honor English kids take 5th period Honors Global. When the 1st period class of either subject has a test, they'll brainstorm the questions and give them to the 5th period class of that subject. It works like that for just about every class - and the teachers are left wondering why the later periods have higher class averages.

By Unluckycharms (Unluckycharms) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Oh, and as to computer programs for cheating...

It took me all of 45 seconds to google "TI-83 AP Physics Formula" to come up with 3 programs you can easily download that contain every formula you'll need to know. :/

By Jolt21 (Jolt21) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:59 pm: Edit

unlucky, thats how it works in my school too...you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours..

By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 06:16 pm: Edit

I actually wouldn't mind if I thought said teacher had spent 20-30 minutes on each kid's paper - I just don't think she did. At any rate, "Great work - grade" gives no evidence of it. My d estimates she spent at least 40 hours over 4 weeks doing her paper - how about if the teacher spent the same amount of time grading 90 papers that it takes a reasonably well-motivated student to produce one? Is it really okay for teachers *not* to read/grade carefully? It's certainly implied that they will, and keep up with their other responsibilities as well. And if they can grade a 10-page paper carefully in 10 minutes - well, more power to 'em and give 'em a raise.

As for student cheating - it's widespread in our hs, too, and the top students aren't immune. There's still lots of low-tech peeking and whispering, which my d tells me her Latin teacher bends over backwards to ignore. In other subjects, there have been several kids using older sibs' exams and papers, and a few instances of stolen answer sheets.

I'd be interested to know if any high schools have honor codes? My d was bugged by the cheating in Latin this year, but didn't report it because she knew she'd be ostracized if she did. Older d attends a school with a very strict honor code where students do report cheating fairly often, because it's required and expected. Would honor codes in hs make a difference?

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Frazzled:

So your D spent 40 hours writing a 10 page paper. And you think the teacher ought to spend the same amount of time reading it and correcting it?
90x40:3600 hours. That's 90 weeks of 40 hours.

It is not possible to read a paper carefully and provide thoughtful feedback in less than 20 minutes. 20 minutes per paper amount to 1800 minutes: that's 30 hours. If the teacher devoted 2 hours per weekday to just reading those papers, it would take 2 weeks to finish them. And that's on top of the 7 hours the teacher puts in at school. And remember that is not the only thing the teacher is responsible for doing outside of school.

I'm not saying that your D is not entitled to feedback; of course she is. But the culprit is not the teacher. It's the district, the education board that expect a teacher to carry such a load; it's the taxpayers who will not pay to hire more teachers to teach fewer kids.

By Theak (Theak) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit

I saw this show too, am I the only one who thought it was hilarious?

First of all, the High School Students were way more advanced in their cheating techniques then the college students, and the high school students didn't care to show their faces and names, but the college kids with their old techniques had their faces blurred, and their voices changed.

What were the statistics?
70% of students admit to cheating.
95% of teachers admit to doing nothing about it.

But the thing that most people need to realize is that with every day, our society grows close and closer to instant information accessing.
Learn more about technologies currently in development here:
http://www.vodafone.com/flash/futures/

You can see that it is more then reasonable, that personal computers will be accessible by any person, anywhere, any time.

But the students did bring up a good point, in most of the successful fields, memorization, which most tests are based off of, is not a necessity. For most fields, individuals are able to access information from their PDAs or Laptops instantly, whats to separate the working adult and the working student?

One last thing I want to mention is that the program showed how the teacher was able to find out who had been plagiarizing, by using Turnitin.com:

Just so you all are aware, Turnitin.com is a completely illegal company. They breach almost every copyright law that is written. They take other peoples works and use them for their own profit, without the original author, the student, giving the company permission to do so.

Its quite ironic actually, a program that is designed to eliminate plagiarism, actually plagiarizes itself.

The program was initially developed at Berkeley by a graduate student, however the university believed it infringed upon student rights, and is one of the universities that refuses to use it.

Please checkout:
http://search.epnet.com/direct.asp?an=7005909&db=afh

For more information.

Oh, and I'd like to agree with the notion that cheating is synonymous with Good Students. Right before graduation, when everyone began reflecting on their High School career, they remember what they learned most: How to cheat, well. And this was discussed in all of my AP classes and none of my other classes. Infact the best cheater I knew, got accepted to UCLA and Berkeley, I believe he got a 4.0 last semester at Cal. It almost hurts to say so.

By Unluckycharms (Unluckycharms) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 09:13 pm: Edit

My school has an honor code, and it means virtually nothing. While teachers do try and stop cheating, they can't stop it all.

I can't think of a single person in any of my AP or Honors classes that doesn't cheat. Some to lesser degrees, of course (only the really bad ones plagiarize and write answers on little cards) but the type of cheating I spoke about before is universal. And I can't think of any incident in the past 2 years when it was reported.

By Mimk6 (Mimk6) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit

"I find it interesting that some posts have said "my children don't cheat" and saying that there is a "cheating crowd"."

I am one of those people who said that. I stand by it. Yes, at our school it is many of the top students who cheat. My daughter and I have talked a great deal about it and her feelings about what goes on. She knows her ranking was lower than it would have been if there was no cheating. Maybe I can say it (that she didn't cheat) because of the kind of relationship we have. I think it's sad that you would assume that a parent who says this is too trusting of their child. It is possible to know your child pretty well.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 10:33 pm: Edit

On the topic of the teacher commenting on major papers, I have to agree with Frazzled One. By the way, I THINK Marite may have misunderstood the 40 hour comment that Frazzled meant. I think she meant 40 hours total to grade the 90 papers, not 40 hours per kid !

I was an elementary teacher for many years, plus have taught college and grad school. Granted my elementary students were in primary grades so grading papers was not what consumed my time. However, I never left work before 6 PM and I also spent all day Sundays on prep work. As far as my college students, I spent a GREAT deal of time evaluating papers and projects. I wrote extensive feedback to each student each time. Besides narrative evaluation, I broke down the grade on each assignment into percentages for certain criteria and gave grades on each aspect, before totalling it up. Was it time consuming? Sure was. But to me that is what teaching is about. It is not a 9-5 job. I realize some teachers at some schools adhere strictly to a contract that says they can leave at 3:30 each day, the end. To me, teaching is not this kind of job. In fact, it is so time consuming outside the classroom hours, that I stopped teaching full time when I had children cause I no longer felt I could do that job the way it should be done.

Now, I would agree with Marite that teachers who have 90 students presents a dilemma. I never have had 90 students. I think the most college students I have had were 45 and yes, that was a lot to me given the amount of time I spent evaluating and commenting on their work. So, yes, 90 makes this very difficult. My feeling, however, is that even with 90 students, they are not writing major papers each week. Somehow it can be planned out in a way that is doable. Here, maybe cause of the smaller size of our high school, a teacher is not teaching five sections of the same exact course but rather five classes that may differ. So, a teacher could conceivably assign a 10 page paper to two classes that week and something smaller to the others and balance it out. My kids have written so many papers throughout high school. In 9th grade Honors English alone, my daughter produced 500 pages of writing. All the papers had comments. I can think of both 15 page and 10 page papers this year and last for some courses, in addition to 3-5 page papers on a regular basis. I am positive they get some form of feedback beyond simply a grade.

I think for Frazzled One's case, the teacher should have completely read the papers and at the very least written a couple sentences of the strengths and weaknesses. If it took two weeks to read them at two hours per day, that is reasonable in my opinion and goes with the territory of teaching.

I am sorry if I have high standards but I do. I was a teacher and have trained teachers. This is part of the profession. The comments are more important in the learning process than the actual grade, in my opinion. As a teacher, I had high standards for my students. And I think in reverse, it is fair to have high standards for the teachers too. However, I agree that the number of students assigned per teacher in some schools makes the situation quite untenable and in fact, does not serve the best interests of the students. Class sizes here are pretty reasonable.

As far as cheating, while it has existed for years, I am amazed at the techniques being discussed here, such as high tech and what not. I have never heard stories like this. The most I have heard of is kids telling others who are in later classes what was on the test in earlier periods or stuff along those lines. I imagine that cheaters might have notes written on their arm or something like that. As far as text messaging, I doubt few kids here even have that feature and even if they did, cell phones do not get reception at our high school! The programming of stuff on a calculator I have not heard of either. I have never heard of my kids talking of kids doing this stuff. And I think I know my kids very well and feel they have not cheated on their school work ever. When I think of my oldest one, she is almost too honest to a fault (though that is never a fault of course).

Susan

By Ticklemepink (Ticklemepink) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Our school has a zero-tolerance for cheating. If you are caught cheating and the teacher reports it to the administration, then you are forced to go down and give your parents a call for a ride home.

Student: "I need a ride home."
Parent; "Why? Are you sick?'
Student: *looks at the principal...* "Ummm no. Because.... because... because... I cheated?"

Then there is a silence on the other end.

"Students who violate this policy will be subject to school disciplinary action which may include a zero on an examination or homework papers, parental notification, suspension from school, removal from the course, and placement of written notification of the violation in the student's permanent record. In addition consideration for membership to the National Honor Society may be in jeopardy."

Zero tolerance. Yup.

But I have admitted to cheating only once or twice on vocabulary and physics quizzes because I write ALL of my papers on top of my Five Star folder (only because it's a softer surface!!) and the marks appear on it so I can see what forumlas I've written on them. Our teacher doesn't always tell us to clear off our desks. But apparently, she didn't know about these wonderful folders... haha. I only discovered that last year when I was stumped on a quiz. Oops.

Most teachers glaze over homework papers because they know people work together in the library so there's not much they can do, especially for freshmen since they all have similar classes and identical homework..

My earth science teacher is highly aware of cheating among freshmen so if she suspects that the entire class is cheating, then she makes up two same multiple choice quizzes but flops the answers around so the correct answer A becomes correct answer C on the other paper next to the student. From there when she grades, she knows who's a cheater and who isn't. She doesn't turn them in because they end up doing poorly on the quizzes and tests and the state exam anyway. Bites them back. Just like the SATs Form A and Form B.

As for writing essays, I try to be careful when writing extremely new material and cite them very carefully. Otherwise if the subject is broad based, then I don't cite. I have always done my own work.

By Theak (Theak) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

http://www.afb.org/braillebug/hktwain.asp

Plagiarism, in any and all forms, is completely horrid.
Plagiarism is simply the first step in a life full of stolen ideas that will never be respected. Certainly no successful individual, especially a writer would ever condone plagiarism.

Here is a portion of a letter Mark Twain sent to Helen Keller in 1903, about the accusation that she had plagiarized.

" Oh, dear me, how unspeakably funny and owlishly idiotic and grotesque was that "plagiarism" farce! As if there was much of anything in any human utterance, oral or written, except plagiarism! The kernel, the soul--let us go farther and say the substance, the bulk, the actual and valuable material of all human utterances in plagiarism. For substantially all ideas are second hand, consciously or unconsciously drawn from a million outside sources and daily use by the garnerer with a pride and satisfaction born of the superstition that he originated them; whereas there is not a rag of originality about them any where except the little discoloration they get from his mental and moral calibre and his temperament, which is revealed in characteristics of phrasing."

-Mark Twain, 1903

To read the letter from Mark Twain to Helen Keller concerning plagiarism.
Go: http://www.afb.org/braillebug/hktwain.asp

By Marite (Marite) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:18 pm: Edit

Yes, I misread Frazzled's post.

I don't know whether the teacher did not provide comments on any paper or decided to save his/her energies for commenting on those papers most in need of critique. Providing constructive comments on awful papers is incredibly time-consuming. I once reviewed an awful book, and it took me so long not to do a total demolition job on it that I swore I'd never accept similar assignments again.

I agree that teaching is not a 9-5 job. But I also think it is not fair to expect teachers to be working from 7 or 7:30 am until 10 or 11pm every day. And that is what probably happens to someone who has 90 students.

My S's 7th grade ELA/Social studies teacher had 22 kids in his class. In theory, he could spend the time to grade papers, prepare for classes, do administrative work, coordinate with other teachers, etc..., something that is far harder than for a teacher with 90 students. And yet, he burned out after less than 3 years. The national average for teacher burnout is three years.

Teachers who have too many students and want to preserve their sanity are likely to assign minimal writing. Instead, they have the students do multiple choice essays and fill out worksheets. That's been the case in our hs. And yet, as a parent, I'd rather have my kid write essays than do multiple choice tests, even if the essays are going to get no more than a cursory reading and a grade. That's why I had my S write an essay for the NHD two years in a row. He did not get any feedback, not even a grade or an acknowledgment on his transcript. I learned later on that the teachers were overwhelmed by the number of submissions (85). Was I happy that my S received no feedback? No, of course not; but I also realized that he had learned a lot from doing the research and writing the papers.
Maybe parents could step in to help teachers and students at frazzled's school. It seems that the teachers could use some help. Our hs may not be the best, but it has a very helpful librarian who maintains a wonderful website with plenty of links of interest to both students and teachers. That's where I found the information on plagiarism I posted earlier.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 03:07 am: Edit

Anybody notice that one of the banner ads that show up on the top of this forum says:

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By Calmom (Calmom) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 03:10 am: Edit

Oh, it must be the targeted adwords. I posted the above, thereby bringing the "cheating" thread to the top of the page, and the next 2 ads to pop up were:

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By Frazzled_One (Frazzled_One) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:20 am: Edit

Sorry not to have been clearer about my expectations for AP teachers. I may think my kids are the center of the universe, but even I would be satisfied with half an hour of attention per major paper:-)

About this teacher: I probably overestimated the number of students she has in her 3 AP History sections. There are 400 kids in d's junior class, and 2 other AP History teachers (though they don't have as many sections). It's a popular class for college-bound kids, but not everyone takes it or qualifies for it. I should have said that she could have *no more than* 90 students. D pointed out last night that she can't remember any comments on the essay portion of tests, either, and very few on DBQ essays. So it may just be this teacher's style not to make comments, or she may not feel her job obligates her to make them (or she may be cheating, to touch briefly on the topic of the thread). I do feel my child gains more from her efforts when they are genuinely evaluated by her teachers. I agree that writing is a worthwhile endeavor even without feedback - but some teachers, even very busy ones, find a way to provide it.

Susan, you are one high energy lady, so it doesn't surprise me that you devoted so much time to grading when you were teaching. Thanks for passing that on to your students, as well.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:50 am: Edit

Frazzled:

Of course, I don't want to argue that teachers should not comment on papers. They should. I still think that having 90 students is a lot. I also wonder whether your D's experience is typical or whether the teacher decided to save her time to comment on those papers that were the weakest. There should be ways, however, to provide feedback on students' papers that do not eat excessively into teachers'time. For example, our teachers felt overwhelmed by the number of NHD submissions this year. They'll have a brainstorming session later to see how they can better provide guidance during the writing process and feedback once papers and projects have been submitted. It may involve seeking help from parents.

I'm glad that your D had a chance to write a 10-page paper. When my older S was in AP-US History, he had the teacher who was considered the best in the school and who won a slew of national awards. That teacher taught one section of AP-US History that had 30 students in it, as well as a couple of other courses, one CP course and one Honors History course for a total of about 80 students and three different preps. She was also the coach of the Academic Decathlon team. She never assigned long papers. She did assign weekly essays of the type likely to appear on the test, as well as MC questions. No wonder her students did well on the test. But I was very disgruntled that the last time my S had written a research paper had been in 10th grade honors history. Since my younger S is headed toward AP-US History next year, I've insisted that he write papers in 9th and 10th grades, even if he's not getting feedback.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

I'm interested that so many of the parents here are so convinced their kids don't cheat.

I don't THINK my D cheats, she is also very honest, and I certainly have no reason to think she would. For example, she refused to join an AP history study group wtih some of her friends because she didn't like the idea of dividing up the work among several people and then sharing it among others.

BUT -- having said that, I don't really KNOW if she has ever cheated. I'm not there every day looking over her shoulder. I'd be very surprised if she had, I think some parents are too quick to think it must be OTHER people's children in the 70% or whatever number that cheat, but definitely not theirs!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Rhonda, you make a good point, we really do not know. I guess in my thoughts that I posted earlier that I feel my D does not cheat, is only based on knowing her very well, her character and what others say about her. I am not there every minute (nor would want to be) but she strikes me as one of the most honest people full of integrity. For example, I feel confident that my other D does not cheat either...she really prefers to do her own work in fact. But even with saying that, I would be the first to say she ain't perfect. She happens to have an issue with lying to us and that is a big problem for me, though I know teens do this when they don't want their parents to find out something or think they would not be allowed to do such and such so have to present it a different way, or some such. I am so used to having a super honest older kid who is just very very simple to parent, that this lying stuff from the younger one can be trying at times! It has nothing to do with schoolwork issues, however. It often centers on things she is allowed to do or just something she thinks I won't like so she changes it a little so she won't be in trouble. Well, that is a different topic, sorry! Just saying, I can state with as much confidence as possible that I do not believe my kids cheat in school, though admit we don't know for sure, but I can also admit my kids ain't perfect so would never say NEVER my kid about certain things.

Susan

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit

My D lied to me ONCE that I found out about. She was read the riot act not for the thing that she didn't want us to find out about, but for lying to us about it. After that, she has been quite honest, even now that she's away -- she tells me things that I know she knows I would never find out if she didn't tell me. OTOH, I'm sure there are some things she DOESN'T tell me, and that's OK (maybe even better, in fact!), as long as she knows she if she is ever really in trouble, she can come to me for help if she ever needs it, no matter what.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 02:52 pm: Edit

I know that some schools have honour codes which hold a person who witnesses cheating and does not report it to be responsible as well. To my mind, this is a great rule; it removes the dilemna of to tell or not to tell from the student. I witnessed a lot of cheating in high school but never reported it (something which I regret, by the way). The top 3 kids cheated regularly. The sal got that way by having other people write his English papers. The val cheated on every test he could - had his friends tell him the questions, plugged formulas into his calculator, you name it. The #3 student never read a book in French; she got the English versions and was praised for her comprehension of the novels. I'm sure that their parents think that they are brilliant and honest.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Back to Rhonda...that is the same riot act I have given my fifteen year old! I keep telling her that whatever the thing was that she did not think I would like, it ain't nearly as bad to me as the lying about it...double whammy as far as I am concerned. Sometimes I really would not have liked the original issue but the lying is so much worse. Sometimes, like the most recent occasion that she lied about (for which she is grounded from social things for a month...well it amounts to two weekends basically cause she was in Europe for two weekends) are things that I likely would have said yes to!

The reason why earlier, I said that I can say convincingly that my 17 year old does not cheat or some other thing, is just based on knowing each child, and not generalizing that my kids never transgress in any area of their lives. For example, I can say with almost certainty that my older one has never had an alcoholic drink. I know my younger one has tried it but does not drink in general. Just different kids and I just feel I know 'em. But as you say, we never know anything for sure when they are not with us.

Susan

By Ticklemepink (Ticklemepink) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Ariesathena - Not suprising that the #3 kid cheated in French by reading the English translation. I assume that the class speaks and reads in French so she must've done twice the work of reading two books to make sure she's on track with the class! I think I'd make the effort to read both to double check my translation, even if I was fluent.


Martie and others on the topic of teachers:

From years of taking AP and honors courses and observing my teachers' styles, I can tell who truly puts in the work and who doesn't. And those who do are among the best teachers because they take the time to critize their students' papers. My English papers and AP Gov't papers are written ALL over that I just had to sit down after class to read them all through (or even right after she/he passes them out!) As a result, I have realized my strengths and weaknesses as a writer. My AP English teacher has only one section this year of 15 students. So she had the time but had MOUNTAINS of work from her other two classes (notorious for handing out random assignments, spur of the moment things). But she loves her job.

On the opposite end, imagine my AP European History clique (formed during sophomore year) and my shock when we entered as juniors to AP US History. Back in Euro, our teacher graded papers and she commented on them. We didn't bother asking when we'd get the papers back because we wanted her to do a good job and to give us criticism.

However.... APUSH was a different story. There were 4 sections of double period classes. Around 100-120 kids. (There were seminiar groups to be considered). The two teachers created lesosn plans and non-grading aspect in joint effort. However, when it comes to grading and assigning papers, they were VERY lazy. ALL year long, after a solid year of 15 page paper/week in AP Euro, we wrote outlines for our seminars! Instead of spending hours on the computer, we only spent a day or two doing the research and writing up the outlines. I did not feel as productive as I could have been. A+'s were easy to come by for me even in outlines that were completely last minute.

To access our studying habits, they handed out 10 question book quizzes every week. There was only one major test per marking period (quarter).

After coasting the year, our biggest shock came after the AP finals when we were told to write a 8-10 page research paper. That seemed very long compared to non-existent papers during the year! ANd that was our only grade for the 4th quarter.

Figuring that if they can grade the outlines easily (skimming actually), then the grading would be done within 2 weeks. SO I asked before the finals about my grade. What was their answer? "Oh, we haven't started them yet." My jaws literally dropped. Just WHAT have they been doing for two weeks!! (Or at least since the APs!) And mind you, my own teacher told me personally that he hates reading essays and this assignment was an excuse to fullfill the necessary essay writing part (Need that practice prior to the AP, not afterwards!)

Many of us left this course extremely disgusted.

And these two teachers had only one elective to teach in addition to their two double-period APUSH classes. One of them is to be the head of the department next year (!). But they really do show excitement for their classes, it's their work ethic that's lousy.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Ticklemepink: you misunderstood. She never picked up the French, but instead read ONLY the English. She knew enough French to be able to get along in class and just studied the vocab lists. It was really sad - she got great grades for something she never did (i.e. reading French).

By Ozmaweez7 (Ozmaweez7) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Interesting story about a lazy teacher:

For the midterm for AP US History during my sophomore year, we were required to write 15 essays in class. Well, since I took too much time on a couple of them, I only finished 11 in the time frame. Boy was I nervous, I thought I was going to fail! I should've known better. This was the laziest teacher in the world, known for making random scribbles on papers with a number grade on top, with random words like "OK" or "Good" sprawled across the margins. Turns out I got an A- for doing 11 of the 15 required essays.

By Ocliberal (Ocliberal) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 06:02 pm: Edit

What 90 students? A high school English teacher with a full load in California has at least 150 to 175 students (5 classes of 30-35 each). The solution, unfortunately, is to assign less papers. I teach HS Spanish and have 190 students, 38 per period. Taxpayers must be willing to pay, or this is what you get. About the cheating, I think there is more cheating now than before. I haven't had much high-tech cheating, but I still catch my share. The difference is in the attitude. In the 70s, when I went to HS, if we were cheating we at least didn't feel proud. Now they brag about it and assume everyone else does it. I have a talk w/my students before every test. With 38 kids jammed into the room, it's physically impossible to separate them adequately. I remind them that I look for cheating, and catch cheaters, and how unfair cheating really is, and most importantly, it is untrue that everyone cheats. I am also a parent who can say with reasonable certaintly that my kids don't cheat.

By Daffodil22 (Daffodil22) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:03 pm: Edit

On most AP exams, graders spend LESS THAN TWO MINUTES on each essay. While I think that is lacking, a good teacher can tell the depth and quality of an essay by reading the introduction and skimming the paragraphs. Students know that with 100+ other students, their papers will not receive special attention, thus encouraging plagarism and buying papers on the Net.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:17 pm: Edit

I think Daffodil is probably right. The difference, though, is that AP essays are of the 5-paragraphs variety, not ten pages long, and the graders are not expected to provide feedback, just a grade, which is what disturbed Frazzled One in the first place.

By Ticklemepink (Ticklemepink) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:00 pm: Edit

Ariesathena- Okay that was not fair My apologies, that's how we work at my school in terms of getting by in foreign languages.

Excellent point, Daff. However, I put in less care for my AP exam essays and keep it within 5 paragraph format. I know what to leave out and what I can risk. I do recall one AP Euro essay that was barely a page and I still ended up with a 4.. Wow.

AP readers are trained to grade these essays. They have to read fast but they also have to have good grasp of literary essay qualitiy standards. My AP English teacher did it one time. Not too sure if she truly enjoyed it although she said that there were few essays that provided excellent ideas but the spellings were terrible! Although she wanted to take off points for spelling but according to the rubric, she had to give these people credit for presenting their ideas. Hmm.

So because of my experience and listening to veteran AP teachers, I know what kind of essay it takes to be a model essay that won't give the grader a headache.

NOW how 'bout those SAT II Writings readers???? You see people freaking out all over the boards for not finishing their essays in time when the graders read them in less than a minute! They just give you a number!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Ocliberal....the number of students in a classroom where you guys are is insane, sorry! I believe class size is one of the most critical issues in education because so much follows from that. What you can do as a teacher in terms of curriculum and activities and also in this discussion here, give proper attention to evaluating students' work. The amount of individual attention kids get at school really matters to me both as a teacher (was one for years) or now as a parent. I cannot imagine 38 kids in a high school classroom.

I doubt highly that any class my kids take at the middle or high school have over 22 kids in them, and some have way less. In our elem school, it is part of the school policy to keep class size under a certain limit...not sure the limit but it is likely 17 or 18 kids. I have never seen a classroom there go over 17 and right now, I think most classes have 15, out of choice (taxpayers in town support that).

I know our school is not the greatest. I can attest to that. But while it is not nearly as great as many public schools elsewhere in the country or certainly nothing like a prep school, sometimes stuff I read here makes me realize that we have some positive things going here. Just tonight my kids were talking over the dinner table about AP exams. Here, we never even had AP courses til this year when four of our challenging senior courses were designated as AP. My younger D has friends all around the country who live in entirely different kinds of communities than ours...they go to way better high schools and private schools as well. She has heard them talk of AP exams going on. And we were talking of how at our school, even though some courses were designated AP this year, and also just talking of our hardest Honors classes such as American Studies, an 11th grade integrated course that includes US History, how our classes do not teach to these exams. Our kids have to write many papers and read primary sources. They do not focus on textbooks and learning facts for multiple choice tests. My older D was telling the younger one, that while these other kids will look good for college with all these AP test scores and so forth, we might not look as good here, but we likely are better prepared to do college work that involves analysis and paper writing and so on. She had a good point.

Now, hearing of GCs on another thread who do not put much into the school report (narrative) on a student's application, or of classes with 38 kids in them, I am starting to think our school has some merit, lol.

Susan

By Katwkittens (Katwkittens) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Kids previous school, (moved in Nov from NV to NC) had 4800+ last year. Biggest high school in the state. Classes had 60-70 kids in some cases. 48 portables. Not enough chairs, desks or books. They were violating more fire codes in one day than other schools' in years. I think the teachers looked at cheating as "co-operative learning" or "strategizing". This from the teacher's mouths! They were happy to just find parking every day, without having to use the "disneyland" shuttle to get to campus!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Wow, Katwittens! And on another thread I posted that your soph child is one amazing kid but now his accomplishments stand out even more to me in light of his having attended a school that had that kind of learning situation!
Susan

(our town does not even have anywhere near 4800 people, lol....cows maybe though)

By Magoo (Magoo) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:04 am: Edit

in my area a lot of people have camera phones/text messages, and yes these people do use them for cheating on tests...its not widely used though, every now and then I’ll hear about someone texting info on tests during class or taking pictures of questions, and then taking them home…but again this is rare. These devices are usually used for speeding the rumor mill…if someone got in a fight/argument with someone it travels around the school on this rumor network of death. also the worst thing that I have seen is invasion of someones privacy…pictures of people changing, or doing other candid acts…

Cheating: yes…but more people look over at the person next to them
Invasion of privacy: yes…very disturbing.

*excuse me if my post was random i only looked at the original post*

By Nopants (Nopants) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

Is this considered cheating?

People get past tests from older brothers/sisters and study off them without reading the textbook. These past test have all different math problems, but its the same topic and style by the same teacher.

Teachers use this same method by supplying students with past AP exams. It's the exact same thing right?

By Ocliberal (Ocliberal) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:08 am: Edit

Soozievt, Your school doesn't sound bad at all. Sounds like they're really able to go in depth on things. And you're right, 38 kids (I've actually had up to 40) is a peace-keeping area, even in an affluent area with good parent support and good kids. Even a hand-full of sidebar conversations, and it's difficult to get the job done. But when I read what Katwkittens wrote, I about choked! Guess there are always worse conditions. I would really love to try teaching somewhere else in the country. Would love to know what I could accomplish in more ideal circumstances!

By Marite (Marite) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 06:52 am: Edit

Nopants:

At many colleges, you will find that instructors are asked to provide copies of their exam questions so that students can consult them. It would be a stupid and totally unimaginative instructor who would be repeating the same questions from year to year. What you describe are appropriate strategies for learning, not cheating. If students knew that the exact problems were to be on the exam and memorized the answers beforehand, that would be cheating.

Teachers can do their part to alleviate cheating by not repeating the exact contents of past exams and by distributing different sets of exercises to students sitting close to another, by asking questions that do not rely excessively on memorization and information that can be plugged into a calculator or some other device.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 10:11 am: Edit

Nopants -- I agree that looking at past tests is not cheating.

When I was in law school, the library had bound copies of old exams for different classes, as well as particularly good student answers the profs had provided.

By Nopants (Nopants) on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Ok it is not cheating, but...

It is extremely unfair to the kids who do not have older siblings and have no idea what the style of the questions are like.

The kids who are fortunate enough to have older siblings do not work as hard but are bright enough to be able to get 100's on the tests just by analyzing last year's tests.

This is not like college where all students have access to previous exams.

Do you agree or disagree?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

I think that trying to ensure fairness by a fruitless effort to make all "inputs" to a student exactly identical is quixotic at best.
You're going to have different advantages and disadvantages accruing to you in competitive situations all your life...might as well get used to it now.

If you seek fairness, you will be bound to be disappointed. If you accept "reasonably fair," you'll accomplish a lot more and be a lot happier.