Click here to go to the NEW College Discussion Forum

Thanks for the great ideas and knowledge this group shares. Any ideas on LACs for daughter:
4.0 UW/4.4 W GPA, (highest weighted GPA in class, she took the most rigorous course load in her class)

1540 SAT, 800V, 740 M
SAT IIs - take soon
ACT 34 with a 35 in math, 32 in English, 35 in science

School does not rank, but does have vale/salut (does anyone see the incongruity in that?), she's probably 3-4 out of 150, 97.X average. "Top 5%" Unfortunately for her, they determine those awards on raw average.
ECs are the usual suspects (NHS, Mu Alpha Theta, leader in Interact,Science Olympiad), lots of band (7 years) with some leadership and dedication, but no talent or awards, some community service, lots of church involvement (acolyte twice a month, choir and youth service group).
State and regional level awards in French competition.
Captain of Scholar's Bowl team that made state championship rounds, but lost early at state. Founding member and officer of a Venturers Scout troop - this is a coed arm of Boy Scouts - they taught themselves to sail, scrapped, painted and rehabilatated a sailboat, then did environmental clean-up projects in the bay.
In short, she hasn't saved the world at barely 16. She seems to want a small LAC, although she may apply to Yale, just because that was first school she visited and really liked. No interest in any other Ivy. We live in the deep South, and she would like to live away for awhile, but West Coast is too far, so mid-Atlantic, Northeast and Midwest, Duke and Vandy, for example, are too big and Vandy is too close.
Her academic interests are wide, so she has expressed a desire for a balanced school with good sciences and good humanities (especially history). To give you an idea, she loved Davidson College. Any other ideas, especially safeties. How prevalent is the practice of waitlisting or rejecting strong candidates because "they will get into a better school"? I'm worried about worst case scenarios here.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:14 pm: Edit

On your last question, this practice has reportedly been increasing in practice by some schools. However, now that US News is no longer considering yield in rankings, maybe it will drop off. The advice usually given is to make sure you express a strong interest in ALL your schools, including the safeties.

There are a lot of midwestern LACs that are easier to get into probably b/c of location -- Kenyon, Grinnell, Macalester come to mind right away. Don't know if they are TRUE safeties, for someone with her stats they certainly should be. Oberlin might also be good, although a little more difficult to get into. Don't know if she's considering women's colleges, but the usual suspects there (7 sisters) are an option.

By Palomino (Palomino) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Good matches: Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Bates

Not quite safeties, but excellent chance: Trinity (CT), Colby, Hamilton, Conn College

Safeties: Union, Skidmore, Franklin & Marshall, Dickison, Gettysburg.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I wouldn't characterize AWS as a match for anyone. I know a #1 ranked kid with SAT scores of 1500+ who was REJECTED (not even deferred) ED at Swat a couple of years ago (a boy) -- and presumably things have gotten tougher. Also, many LACs are said to favor boys over girls in admissions, because they have so many girls apply (Oberlin is one of these -- I know boys with stats significantly below your D's who got in there RD).

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:36 pm: Edit

What about Smith or Wellesley as match/safety and reach/match schools? Mt. Holyoke as a safety, Washington & Lee as a match. William and Mary. Colgate.

The NESCAC schools (small New England DIII) - Amherst, Bates, Bowdoin, Conn. College, Cobly, Hamilton, Middlebury, Trinity, Tufts, Wesleyan, Williams.

The last group contains some reach/matches for her: Amherst, Williams, Tufts, Bowdoin, Wesleyan; Colby, Bates, Middlebury, Trinity would be good matches; Conn. College might be a safety. Not sure enough about the others to even try to categorize.

By Palomino (Palomino) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:43 pm: Edit

the term "match" comes from the notion that one's stats (SATs, GPA, etc.) match those of students who are accepted by the college. in that respect, with 1540 SATs, a 4.4 GPA, and a rank of 3 of 150, her qualifications match those of AWS and the other schools I mentioned. I did not say that she would get in. But she is certainly a competitive applicant.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

The list above is pretty good.

I would be quite optimistic about Davidson, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc. I believe that an early decision application to any of these would be a likely bet (well above 50%/50% odds at each of them) with a good application.

I would be very comfortable with Trinity, Colby, Hamilton, and Conn as safeties. I would be very surprised by a rejection from any of them, barring some major red flag on the application.

Other recommendation: I would consider highlighting the environment clean-up leadership activities in an essay. This is exactly the sort of thing that colleges love. The thing kids don't understand is that these kinds of activities don't have to be grandiose or world-saving: a simple essay about a day cleaning up the water can be very effective. If your child is a "math/science" kid, even better: hammer it home with environmental biochem as a potential major, thus tying an outside interest into the academic interests. Find out who the enviro activist faculty members are at each school (by asking your regional adcom) and contact them about opportunities for enviro at the school. Voila, there's your "Why Podunk U?" essay and a strong "on message" application. [NOTE: I am not suggesting any particular "message". Enviro may not be honest for you child, in which case you shouldn't do it. I'm just illustrating a way of thinking about the process].

BTW, is she has the highest weighted GPA in her class, her class rank as far as the colleges in concerned is probably #1. So a major goal for you is to make sure that is communicated in her transcript: a notation on her official transcript ("we don't rank, but she had the highest weighted GPA in her class") and a prominent mention in the G.C. recommendation would be the appropriate places. You should probably make a point of sitting down with the G.C. to make sure this happens; don't take it for granted.

Also, if you decide to highlight the scout/environment thing, prepare a letter from the scout master detailing the activities -- the letter will go in the school's official file. My daughter did some community service stuff that her school knew nothing about. We had a similar letter sent to her guidance counselor, the school ended up nominating her for a community service award (she won the school award) and was one of six finalists at the state level -- all from something the school wouldn't have known she had done.

By Ohio_Mom (Ohio_Mom) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit

We just got back from a tour that included Bowdoin, Tufts, Colby and Conn College - its very important to visit then, since they are really all very different in feel!

By Dstark (Dstark) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Ohio_Mom, I would love to read your thoughts on your tour if you have time.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Cangel, my D's academic profile is similar to yours and she has elected Smith, getting a modest bit of merit money and a two-year research assistant job into the bargain. Northampton is a great town and the Five College Consortium mitigates a bit against the womens college effect, which has a lot of non-social plusses. I could go on for another 15 screens about it but the long-term readers would start to throw over-ripe fruit in my direction.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

>> I wouldn't characterize AWS as a match for anyone. I know a #1 ranked kid with SAT scores of 1500+ who was REJECTED (not even deferred) ED at Swat a couple of years ago (a boy) -- and presumably things have gotten tougher.

In my opinion, a candidate ranked #1 or #2 in school, with 75th percentile test scores for Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and a rigorous course load will be accepted if they put the effort into identifying and communicating specific reasons for their strong interest in the school and if their application isn't torpedoed by something in the essays or recommendations.

The key to any of these schools is offering something likeable or interesting that will add value to the campus community. But, if the student has fallen in love with any of these schools through sufficient contact and really getting to know the school, it's probably because something about the individual school's ambience really does fit with the individual student's personality.

The high stat kids who get rejected at these schools are more than likely the kids who didn't really make any effort to understand the school and communicate a level of genuine excitement about why they would contribute to and benefit from the college community. The other big red flag is even a whiff of arrogance or something utterly stupid like saying they want to attend because the school is prestigious and will help get into a famous grad school. It all works out the way it's supposed to, because these kids wouldn't be right for those schools in the first place, regardless of their test scores.

So, I agree that nobody should assume acceptance at any of these schools. But, a student with the requisite academic transcript can pro-actively make their odds very attractive by using the application process effectively -- ESPECIALLY EARLY DECISION. Not to beat a dead horse, but "Think like an adcom."

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit

CAngel:

Just as an aside, all of us in our family (daughter included) loved Davidson as well. I actully predicted privately back in April of her junior year when we visited that I thought that would be where she would end up going to college.

It had everything that my daughter was looking for with the one reservation (almost every school will have one reservation!) being that it might be a little too "preppy/frat/traditional" for a decidedly non-cashmere New Englander. However, she had her application ready to drop in the mailbox the day her Swat ED letter arrived.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit

I endorse everything InterestedDAd says, except the bit about ED. It is a distinct advantage at many LACs, but do it only if you feel you do not need to compare financial packages. If you do, look for LACs that will accept EA applications.
The range of LACs above is excellent. If she is willing to consider a larger college, Brown might be a great fit.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:32 pm: Edit

ED is not just a distinct advantage at the small LACs, it is a huge advantage. The acceptance rate basically DOUBLES in the ED round. I think Cangel's daughter can get into these schools in the RD round. But, if a first choice emerges, ED turns a possibility into a pretty likely and makes for an incredibly stress-free senior year.

Obviously, you have to factor finances into the equation. If you are not prepared to live with whatever financial aid the formulas arrive at, then ED is not the way to go. In my opinion, the best strategy, if finances are an issue, is to step down a rung on the selectivity ladder (to schools that are trying to use their endowments to improve the quality of their student bodies) and go for merit aid. For the most part, the top LAC's don't do merit aid -- in part because they don't have to do much to attract great students and in part because they use their money for affirmative action and need-based aid.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Cangel,
One important consideration that you didn't mention are finances. Do you have any financial restrictions or can you comfortably meet a $41 K a year college bill?

IMO if finances are a consideration, it would be very important to find a couple of colleges for your D to apply to that she loves and that she would be guaranteed of getting into and you know that you could afford --whether or not she gets any need based or merit aid.

What careers are your D considering?

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Thanks, anymore safeties? I don't think she would think to say "I want to get in a famous grad school". She's thinking about pre-med (like everyone else at this stage), but she knows that she will come home for in-state med school or pay herself. Her greatest desire, I think, is to be in a school with kids who enjoy learning and have fun, too. A place where she might be "average" or "typical" rather than something unusual, and a place where she can sample many things. No competitive sports, (she's 4'9" and has her parents' coordination, that is nada), but she thought the Moocow band at Williams was a hoot (or a moo?!). A school where kids were "too hip or too cool for school" would not be for her, and we (and she) are definitely conservative (Wesleyan might be a bit out there for us), but do not seek to shelter her - I think she could hold her own in a political debate. How about Carleton? Yes, I know it's cold!

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Carleton is wonderful. I visited in the dead of winter, and the walkways were much better plowed than my Cambridge streets. The faculty and students seemed to enjoy great rapport. The only thing that it lacks, from my perspective as the parent of kids who have been to a high school where 27 different languages are spoke, is diversity. It attracts a mostly Midwestern student body. But it is a high-achieving student body. I understand that many do go to study abroad. If you are interested in Carleton, consider Grinnell and Macalester as well.
Williams is very sports-oriented, so might not suit someone who is not interested in sports, but its science offerings are excellent. It is also very strong in the arts (it has a wonderful museum). The campus is gorgeous.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

It's sounds snooty, but I don't think there will be any financial aid. As we told the GC, if she's deciding between 2 equal choices from her point of view, then we talk about money. Last Christmas, at the very hint of the beginning of this process, I offered to bank a couple of years of Yale tuition for her in return for attending the state school (which would be cheaper than free, because she goes to private school now), but, good for her, she turned me down (I was at least half serious). The offer still holds, and I think it's beginning to sink in just how much money that would be, but she wants the experience, and I think it's right for her, she's someone who will take advantage of this opportunity. Seriously, her Dad and I have a comfortable life, but we have tried to be conservative, ?stingy?, so that our kids could have the chance to go to the best college they could. I'm trying, maybe too late, to get an appreciation in her head for just how expensive college is, and what a privilege she has to go to the school she chooses.

By 2dsdad (2dsdad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:01 pm: Edit

The schools listed already are all good assuming your daughter's interests match their strengths. You didn't mention whether finances will be an issue but, as already indicated, you won't get much merit money at many of the schools already listed. Moving down the list somewhat to less well known and less competitive schools will produce better offers of merit money. Of the ones my daughter looked at in the East, Washington College, MD ($10,000/year just for NHS membership as a start) and Muhlenberg College, PA, are two I would recommend that are safeties, given her stats, and darn good schools as well. Muhlenberg sends a lot of kids on to the professional schools if that is her interest.

Re: Kenyon (OH). Excellent school that she may want to look at, too. My daughter is going there next year. It is getting more selective, though it is still a match for your D. Admit rates have have fallen lately as the reputation and applicant pool has changed. Three years ago they admitted 63%, this year 38%.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Cangel -- if finaid is not an issue, you should try to get in enough visits that she has an idea whether she wants to apply ED anywhere. Obviously, I wouldn't push her to do so, but she should at least have the option if she chooses.

And it does not sound snooty about the $$ -- I consider it an investment in my child's future, probably the best investment you can make. My parents did the same for me, and the only way to repay that debt is to do the same for my child, since I am able to (not without some sacrifices, but w/just one kid, we're fine!).

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:54 pm: Edit

>> Cangel -- if finaid is not an issue, you should try to get in enough visits that she has an idea whether she wants to apply ED anywhere. Obviously, I wouldn't push her to do so, but she should at least have the option if she chooses.

I wouldn't use the term "push", but in Cangel's situation, I would openly discuss the advantages of early decision, should a first choice emerge for her daughter. As Superbowl winning coach (and Wesleyan grad) Bill Belichick tells his team regarding referees calling penalities strictly or loosely, "I encourage my team to play the game as the game is being played...."

IMO, college applicants should play the game the way the game is played and that includes early decision.

By Par72 (Par72) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Might want to look at Bucknell or Holy Cross. Holy Cross has a good location for a selective LAC-1 hour from Boston. Also the campus is nice and students there like HC-lots of school spirit. Bucknell and Colgate are in more remote locations.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit

>> Holy Cross has a good location

Wow. I don't know too many people in Massachusetts who would describe "Wus-ta" (Worcester) as a "good" location!

It is convenient to interstate highways, but not generally regarded as a garden spot location in the Bay State.

Kind of like saying Macon is a good location because it's an hour south of Atlanta!

By Dreadpirate (Dreadpirate) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Cangel: For opportunities of a major research university with LAC size (2700)and a residential college system similar to Yale's your daughter should visit Rice. No it is not a safety for anyone, but your daughter has the right credentials.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 12:28 am: Edit

With your D's academic profile, there isn't a school too selective to at least consider.

I'd definitely look at Carleton and for a true safety, go across town and check out St. Olaf. Everything in the description of your daughter makes me think she'd be very comfortable at St. Olaf. I'd describe both schools as balanced and (surveying midwestern schools)would favor both over Oberlin, Macalester, Grinnell and Kenyon. . .even though they are four of my absolute favorite LACs.

Based on her interests and positive responses to Yale and Davidson, I'd also look at Bowdoin and at Dartmouth - an Ivy that is somewhat "LAC-like." Other strong LACs (Bates and Colby) would "route" well on a visit to Bowdoin.

Other possible (true) safeties. . .Franklin & Marshall and Lawrence University.

BTW I believe interesteddad to be correct about the advantages of ED at selective LACs, but it appears that there would be only 3-4 where she would need that advantage, and I wouldn't see the point of using it unless one (or two) of those schools is an absolute favorite.

Also, if your D visits and/or expresses serious interest to a selective LAC, she will not be rejected on a "they will get into a better school" basis. At selective LACs, the only instances of this I've heard about involved students do not show real interest in a school or do a poor or incomplete job on applications. Even in the latter case, a less-selective school may try and rope a student of a certain income level in with merit aid and I know of some very selective schools that have accepted top-quality kids with only partial applications.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 01:17 am: Edit

>> BTW I believe interesteddad to be correct about the advantages of ED at selective LACs, but it appears that there would be only 3-4 where she would need that advantage...

I think that's right. But, if one of these three or four is a clear favorite, the ED option is immensely valuable because it eliminates so many opportunities for chance to impact the outcome.

The ED period ensures that your app will get a more than thorough reading and the fullest possible consideration. If it is meant to be, it will happen in ED. If it is meant to be, it will probably happen in RD as well, but there are variables and elements of chance. For example, Swat gets something like 300 ED applications. They come in early, when the adcoms are fresh. They know that these 300 students are, by definition, totally committed to Swat. They want to accept these kids and they accept 140 of them, nearly one out of two.

Fast forward to the RD round and the same number of adcoms have to wade through 3500 applications. Mixed in these floor to ceiling piles are apps from kids who really want to Swarthmore and the hoard of kids scrambling to apply elsewhere after getting their Ivy deferrals. It's only human nature that some of these apps are going to get a tired, or grumpy, or jaundiced reading. The reality of the regular decision app reading is so vividly portrayed in "The Gatekeepers".

By Cangel (Cangel) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 09:19 am: Edit

Great replies, you've confirmed almost all the schools that we've discussed at home, and made me feel better about her chances. Suggestions, please, for expressing interest in schools that we cannot realistically visit unless she is accepted, and need to decide whether or not to attend. An E-mail to the admissions counselor for our area for example? I would think someone in Northfield Minnesota could understand why we couldn't fly up there easily.

By Thumper1 (Thumper1) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 09:43 am: Edit

Interesteddad, I'd be interested in hearing more about Davidson. We will be taking DD there this summer on part of a college visit vacation (hm...some vacation!!). She is finishing her sophomore year, is in the top decile of her class (no individual ranking), and has good EC's. In addition, she wants to play oboe (not necessarily majoring in music) and we noticed on Davidson's web site that they award music merit aid irrespective of major. Also they offer a music minor and she could continue playing/studying oboe while pursuing another degree there. Tell us a little about it...or you could email me (which I think you can do from here because someone else did!!).

By Marianne (Marianne) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 10:26 am: Edit

Looking over people's suggestions, I think with your daughter's stats and her abilities in science -- which is a major plus for girls - there are far too many safeties being suggested. If you are considering AWS, for example, and Bowdoin, Middlebury, Wesleyan, I really don't think you have to add schools like Trinity, Connecticut College, and Muhlenberg to her list. I would echo the Dartmouth suggestion. And while you are visiting east coast schools, you might want to look into Vassar -- excellent for sciences and the arts with excellent med school placement statistics.
I think sometimes that the need for safeties is overplayed on this board. A safety is relative to the stats, and I have to agree with what Ziggi said somewhere, people with high scores/GPA are going to be picked up by at least one of the top schools, or at the very least, a match school. I don't think the 3/3/3 rule should be hardfast -- for some students, a few reaches and a lot of matches makes more sense.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:09 am: Edit

Marianne, I actually agree with you. One safety that she loves, that should be the definition of a safety. If you can estimate her chances at a given school as 50/50, then she applies to 4 50/50 schools, her odds of striking out at all 4 are about 1/24 (not bad), apply to 5, higher, my math's failing me. But, how are you reasonably sure that her chances are 50/50 at any given school, and are 4 schools ever truly equal, even though she says now that they all sound the same! Her back-up plan is interesting, although I don't know how a selective college would feel about it. Work and take a class or 2 at the local commuter school, then spend 3-4 months traveling through Europe on her earnings(she has family in Germany and France, and friends in Germany, so this is not as nerve-wracking as it sounds), she's also interested in long term community service. My private prediction is that she will apply ED to Davidson, and hopefully will have at least a 50/50 chance (I can say this without too much chance she'll see it, she's not a web surfer!)

By Marianne (Marianne) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

If a student is applying to a LAC, has high grades, high scores, takes the most challenging courses as a junior/senior, has taken advantage of the opportunities which surround her, is a nice person, is interested in science, and is able to convey a sense of who she is in her application, I think you can be reasonably sure at places where her scores put her in the top 25%.
But visiting is important to "show interest": when you go, make sure she signs in so they have a record of your having been there. Also, once she narrows her list to real possibilities, a visit with a professor is always a good idea -- she can mention in her application that she met with so-and-so, and "so enjoyed the meeting that she was inspired to apply to that school."

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:37 am: Edit

I'm not a Davidson "expert", but here's a little:

If you took Williams and plopped it down in the hills 20 minutes north of Charlotte, you would have Davidson. It has enjoyed an strong academic reputation for a very long time.

The campus is absolutely gorgeous. Hilly with tradtional red brick buildings. The student center is the coolest I have ever seen -- a big open three-story building around a central atrium with a large brick patio that literally overlooks the football field!

The "town" of Davison is a collection of beautiful old houses with ritzy antique stores and little cafes. The surrounding area has certainly changed. Forty years ago, Charlotte wasn't all that much and Davidson was in the middle of nowhere. Now, Charlotte is a booming sunbelt city and the suburbs have reached out to surround Davidson, which is a mile or so from Lake Norman. Lake Norman is the epicenter of the NASCAR industry, with gated communities and fancy new houses lining the shores -- basically your typical big-$$$ suburban sprawl. So you have this little jewel of a town/college, but if you drive a mile or so, you get to malls, strip shopping centers, and new-south suburbia.

From a curriculum standpoint, Davidson is traditional. Their course catalog has the same classic liberal arts offerings I saw at Williams in the early 1970's -- the only course catalog I've seen that has not been polluted by all the PC nonsense. For example, English courses are titled, "Faulkner Novels", not "Gender, Race, and Class Struggles in Faulkner". It is known as a very difficult school acadmemically. No grade inflation, tons of work.

Like Williams, Davidson supports the full gamut of varsity athletics including football. That is very hard to do with 1600 students. I'm sure that it has an impact on admissions and on the campus culture. Davidson also has pretty high fraternity membership and frat parties are a significant part of the social scene.

Davidson is one of the least racially diverse LACs -- 87% white compared to more typical numbers (70% at Williams, 62% at Swarthmore). The black enrollment (5%) is not terribly low by national standards, but low relative to the large black populations in the surrounding states. The the Latino enrollement is very low (3%). Both numbers pretty clearly show less emphasis on affirmative action than is the case at many LACs. That could be viewed as a plus or a minus (for example, I think diversity is a plus, but I'm not a fan of racial preferences in admissions).

The Asian/American enrollment is stunningly low (2%) compared to 9% at Williams and 16% at Swarthmore. Given the strength of the Asian/American applicant pool today, I question how an elite academic school could achieve that 2% number (for example, UNC-Chapel Hill is 6% Asian). It may be a reflection of small Asian populations in the South, but 2% is a number that would make campus life noticeably different at Davidson compared to many LACs.

By Jjsmom (Jjsmom) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:48 am: Edit

Hi Cangel. My son's stats, possible career goals, music ECs, and "typical good kid/left-leaning but Wesleyan is tooooooo far leaning" attributes sound very much like your daughter's. Though technically Tufts isn't an LAC, it may appeal to her as it did my son. You can read a ton about it on the "individual schools" board.

They have an ED round 2 which really worked to his advantage, as Tufts is one of those schools that really like to see "demonstrated interest" and what better way to demonstrate interest than applying ED? He applied to Yale EA, and when that didn't work out, he applied to Tufts ED2.

Of course, ED is binding and you can forget merit money, so this won't work out if she wasn't in love with Tufts and money was an issue. But it sounds like this could be an approach for you also, ONLY if she visits ahead of time and adores it (like my son did).

Tufts is never a safety of course. One of his safeties was Vassar, which I think might be a safety for your daughter also, especially if she worked it into her application that she was planning to focus on science/math.

I'm impressed that this early you have a good handle on the "lottery" aspect of the Ivies and most competitive LACs. Having the same stats as your daughter and being rejected outright by Yale EA hit home the realities of the odds, but we were ready with plan B, having discovered CC and picking the brains of the wonderful parents here.

Good luck to you!

By Cangel (Cangel) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 12:20 pm: Edit

I respectfully agree with Interesteddad, we've not yet been to Williams, but I have a good friend who is a Williams grad, and judging from her descriptions, Williams is kind of Davidson moved north, ;). I would not describe the campus at Davidson as "absolutely gorgeous", but I've got fairly high standards, it is not institutional in appearance, and we were there in Feb, probably the absolute low point. The campus center is great, D really liked the large open fireplace surrounded by comfy couches at the entrance, it looked "homey.
The frat scene, I thought was important, but actually low key, again especially for the South. The eating houses are non-selective, this was re-emphasized over and over, we asked because D does not want a suitcase school or a school where sororities rule. I thought I understood that frat rush was low-key as well, but I didn't absoeb that as well. Please understand that at my daughter's high school there are frats and sors - the fraternities are generally non-selective, but the sororities are very selective, and VERY important, at least to the 30 girls they pick. She has a very negative image of Greek life (and, frankly, often down here it's fairly accurate), but was pleased with the description of the eating houses.
The academics are well respected here, doctors lawyers, bankers and Indian chiefs have been coming out of Davidson for many years (of course, all the grads I know are male). It is not as diverse as it's Northern competition, but there a lot of reasons for that, good and bad, but I think the paucity of trendy courses is positive - I'm sorry, I'm a woman who has benefited greatly from the changes of the last 30 years, but the history of our country, and the books written by those politically incorrect white males are still important (sorry for the diatribe, please don't throw stones, women are important, too, just not every, stinkin' class!).
Sports are important, but not all consuming, as they are at other Southern schools - that's one thing that we are concerned about at Williams, do you have to be an athlete to have fun?
All in all it looked like a good fit for my D.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

>> I would not describe the campus at Davidson as "absolutely gorgeous",

Just to clarify:

I wouldn't rate Davidson as the prettiest campus we visited. And, part of my positive rating has to do with April weather in North Carolina, which automatically qualifies as 'gorgeous' to any New Englander!

As for athletics at Williams, I don't believe that you have to be an athlete to have fun. I certainly wasn't. I fulfilled my PE requirements with golf in the fall and spring (lovely campus course) and skiing in the winter (about fifteen minuts away by campus bus -- little podunk ski area, but enough for a newbie skier). Nevertheless, Williams and Davidson emphasize sports more than "average" for small LACs as opposed to Swarthmore which would be below "average".

By Marianne (Marianne) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Interesteddad:
I'd have to question the academic offerings at a college if the course catalogue lists the same classes you had in the seventies! A lot has happened in the world of literary criticism since the seventies, and a school that can't keep up isn't doing its job. Also, to focus on race, gender and class in Faulkner, or the many other topics which his novels explore, is the norm at good schools, and shouldn't be dismissed as "PC." In fact, I'd find it a little odd if a Southern college avoided issues like race, gender and class in American literature.

By Asimplemind (Asimplemind) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Jsjmom, how is Vassar a safety when Tufts is a match? They are equally hard to get into. In fact at my S's school, 2 kids were rejected from Vassar and admitted to Tufts, and Vassar was their first choice! Tufts, while a good school, is no where near as difficult to get into as Georgetown, Chicago, Williams, Amherst, Swat and the Ivies

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

I would agree that Vassar is not a safety school. Of course calling schools reach, match, safety is relative to a student's profile. But in a general sense, I would think for a top student that Vassar would be a match school, not a safety school. Tufts is a match school but would be a high match, just below reach. Tufts overall is harder to get into than Vassar but as you can see there are kids accepted to Vassar and not Tufts (I see that kind of thing a lot....someone accepted to Brown, not Tufts, someone accepted to Yale, not Brown....so these are not hard and fast rules). Overalll, Tufts has an admit rate around 23%. Vassar is about 34% so there is not that much difference but Vassar is a tad bit easier. Both likely are matches for very accomplished students. And both are pretty hard to get into.

As a Tufts interviewer, I have interviewed lots of kids for about ten years and the majority seem very accomplished, yet hardly any have gotten in. The past two years, out of 12 interviewed, NONE got in. Luckily,this year, one girl I interviewed got in and it was a relief. I have had others get in in the past but I can tell you, it is the exception! I had a val not get in two years ago and I hear he is at Brown now! Go figure. With Tufts admit rate at 23%, it is not a school that even the best kids can count on getting in. I know my daughter felt she had a chance but never felt she would get in for sure. We saw it as a high match school. She did not apply to Vassar. A friend of hers did, who is sixth in the class and she is waitlisted there.

Susan

By Asimplemind (Asimplemind) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Vassar:
Average SAT: 1371
SAT I - Verbal Range (25-75%): 660-740
SAT I - Math Range (25-75%): 640-710

Tufts:
Average SAT: Not Reported
SAT I - Verbal Range (25-75%): 610-700
SAT I - Math Range (25-75%): 640-720

Doesn't appear to be that Tufts is more difficult to get into than Vassar. It actually appears to be that you need significantly higher Verbal scores to get into Vassar while essentially the same Math scores for each of them.

Its not about admit rates alone. Its about the pool of applicants. Chicago has a 40% admit rate but an exceptional pool of applicants. And it is an extremely difficult school to get into. Vassar had a 29% admit rate last year, Tufts 26%.So I'd consider Vassar a high match and Tufts a match. I know you went to Tufts SoozieVT and you have every right to be proud of your alma mater! But it doesnt make Tufts harder to get into than Vassar. Applicants self select which schools to apply to affecting admission rates.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

>> Also, to focus on race, gender and class in Faulkner, or the many other topics which his novels explore, is the norm at good schools, and shouldn't be dismissed as "PC."

Call me old-fashioned. I prefer English courses that focus on the literary works, discussing topics that arise from those works.

I don't like English courses that focus on some current political issue, finding works of literature that support a particular view.

One thing that bothers me about current English department offerings in general is the lack of the pure survey course: The Works of Faulkner, the Works of Hemmingway, the Works of Doestoevsky, the Works of William Shakespeare, etc.

By Heyheyhoho (Heyheyhoho) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Vassar has a tendency to reject kids who they think might not attend. I know kids who were admitted to Middlebury, Williams, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Oberlin and Swarthmore, but waitlisted at Vassar.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

I really cannot compare Tufts and Vassar and that is not my intent.

Just to let you know the stats at Tufts as I have them directly from Tufts, not a college directory. Last year, I believe the admit rate was 23%.

This year, the admit rate in RD was 25%. The overall admit rate was just under 27%. The MEAN class rank is 7%. For test scores, the admitted group presents SAT I testing as follows: the middle 50% of the admitted group has a verbal score between 660-750 (the mean is 703) and a math score between 680-760 (the mean is 713). Those scores differ from those you reported. The avg. SAT therefore at Tufts for this year's admitted applicants is 1413. It is hard to get into Tufts and I am sure it is also hard to get into Vassar. I understand that you do not put much into admit rates. When my own child was selecting colleges to apply to and categorizing them as reach, match, safety....she used things like admit rate but also mean scores and stuff like that both.

Susan

By Asimplemind (Asimplemind) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:54 pm: Edit

I am sure the same could be said of any other school Heyheyhoho, as to who got in and who didn't. Kids who were admitted to Williams but waitlisted at Oberlin, a much easier school to get into. Swarthmore/Bowdoin, etc. And I was giving admit rates, not yields. And your reasoning even underscores that Vassar SAT admit stats are more true than inflated since you believe they would reject a 1600 over a 1410, thereby reducing the SAT admit ranges to increase the yield.

SoozieVT, this years median admit SAT at Vassar was over 1410 by the way.

And I gave the stats that Princeton Review had from whatever time period they focused on. And given that time period, Vassar had a significantly higher range of SAT1 Verbal. Its not a big deal, but I just cannot agree that Tufts is more difficult to get into [your idea of a high safety] than Vassar.

By Marianne (Marianne) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

I agree with you, it is hard to find classes titled "The Works of . . . ." I regret that too, to a certain extent. (When I was in graduate school at a certain Ivy institution, there wasn't a class on Henry James for undergraduates!) On the other hand, starting with themes such as race, gender, and class can get you to an understanding of that author's works. I'm pretty familiar with Faulkner, and there is plenty about race, class and gender that arises from his texts. I think a class that is taught with a focus on those themes can be about what Faulkner (or any author) thought of those issues, not necessarily a way for a professor to push his or her views. In the end, even a course titled "The Works of" is probably going to have to focus on some issues, otherwise, how could you cover everything the novelist suggests in one semester?

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 05:24 pm: Edit

>> I think a class that is taught with a focus on those themes can be about what Faulkner (or any author) thought of those issues, not necessarily a way for a professor to push his or her views.

I agree with the words "can be". However, the same professors coming up with the course names are teaching the courses, so I suspect that is not often the case -- especially since these courses are often dual offerings for an English major or a "Fill in the Blank"-studies major.

My other objection is that great literature is not fundamentally "about" political issues, but rather about human struggles. While you can certainly come up with perfectly legitimate essay topics on gender issues in Shakespeare and race issues in Faulkner, I don't believe those were really the core ideas these (or any other) great authors were exploring. I think it's wrong to categorize Faulkner as a "race" author.

Frankly, I think the place and time Faulkner writes about is so foreign to "yankee PhDs" that I'm not sure many of them could really understand it.

By Jjsmom (Jjsmom) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 06:22 pm: Edit

OK... it was me that said that I thought Vassar would be a possible safety for the OP, not Suzie, so you can blame me. ;>

My take on it was that Vassar was a bit easier to get into than Tufts, and this was from my own research, tours of both schools, and so on. But, I had forgotten one crucial bit of information: that we were looking at Vassar from the point of view that the applicant, my son, is a guy, (duh!) and that certainly would tip the scales more in his favor. So, what was a safety for my son wouldn't apply to OP's daughter, so... nevermind!

I *do* know that Tufts is difficult to get into, and would not be a match for anyone. Suzie has the real stats and they were confirmed at admitted student days this past week. Tufts is huge on "demonstrated interest" and is one of those schools to which applying ED is extremely helpful.

I know this is anecdotal but, FWIW:

From my son's public high school in NJ: 10 total applicants to Tufts. All had SATs in 1450-1530 range, top 10% of class, notable ECs.

Four applied ED, two were accepted. One was my son (the one with 1530 SATs/top 4% of class/state ranked music ECs). The other is a girl with national recognition for community service. Two deferred, later rejected. Tufts was their number one choice. They are now going to be going to Lehigh and B.U.

Six more applied RD, and one was admitted. He decided to turn it down for a B.S./M.D. program. One waitlisted (SATs 1500, top 10%, one of the top swimmers in state) and he's staying on the waitlist for now, but sent in deposit to Lafayette. Four denied (again, SATs 1450+) and one (a female, btw) got into Vassar, will be attending. Don't know where the others will be going.

I know this is beating a dead horse and is getting off topic (sorry OP!) but the point of all this is that I wouldn't suggest Tufts is a safety or match for anyone, and is not easier to get into than Vassar at all. On the other hand, I think that FOR A MALE WITH VERY HIGH STATS (Ivy-caliber pool) Vassar is easier to get into, and could possibly be a safety.

And now, back to our original topic... LAC safeties for junior girl to visit.

By Maiby (Maiby) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 07:54 pm: Edit

My son is down to the wire - deciding between Colby and Bates. I always thought Colby was on the top of the list but we've visited both colleges again and he seems to be hedging. Unfortunately,it's spring break at Bates so the campus was pretty empty but he did speak with a professor and track coach. We like the campus there and know the kids have a reputation for being nice! My focus and research has been more on Colby over the past months but I'm open to either one. Any thoughts on rigor (I keep reading that it's very hard to get an A at Bates) - or grad school statistics. He'd need to continue as he wants to get involved in environmental research or consulting. Thanks for any help in this last minute balancing act!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Simplemind....in general, I am not into comparing schools....certainly not in terms of which is better cause I see it more about which is the better fit for a certain kid. As far as which is harder to get into, I cannot claim to know that. I can only use the stats that I have. My post was mostly to clarify the stats at Tufts which I have direct access to via the admissions office, not a college directory and they differed some from those you had from a different source.

You write: "Its not a big deal, but I just cannot agree that Tufts is more difficult to get into [your idea of a high safety] than Vassar."

I want to clarify that I referred to Tufts as HIGH MATCH, NOT a high safety. I cannot see Tufts as ANYONE'S safety. I cannot even see Vassar as a safety for anyone. I mostly said that I see both as matches for top students, and see Tufts as high end match. Vassar comes close in my mind in terms of selectivity. Not positive Tufts is harder to get into or not. I have that impression that it might be by a small amount and the acceptance rate is lower, though I realize that is not the only factor to weigh. For me it is not about comparing the two. Simply saying both are hard to get into, and might qualify as matches for very top students.

My own experience is with Tufts admissions only as an interviewer and now as a parent of an applicant. I do not know enough about Vassar other than stats in a guidebook. It surely is a very fine school. My daughter's friend had applied there ED and went to visit shortly thereafter and did not like it and changed her app to RD and now got waitlisted there. She did not like the social scene she experienced. But to me, it is about FIT. Not every school is right for every kid. I would say that about Tufts just as well.

I do not have a preference for Tufts, merely have experience (all positive) with Tufts but would not push it on anyone, not even my own kid. I never cared if she ever took one look at it and find it fascinating that when she perused college directories, Tufts appeared on her list as of interest and she asked to visit and fell in love with it. She came close to going. I did not care what college she chose. I could see why she found it appealing in terms of her criteria. But I would never suggest going or anything. I can only share what I know as a resource, nothing more.

I only gave info. here on Tufts cause I know Tufts. I do not know Vassar well enough to talk of it in any detail.

Susan

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Follwing up on two points here. . .

First the safety question. While it certainly is possible to apply to too many safeties, Cangel's D is at the point in the process when she should consider as many as possible. Applying to a single safety is fine, as long as it is a true safety, and a school the student would be happy to attend. Even then, it would be a good idea to couple that tactic with applications to as many matches as make sense for the student. I know of several students (and this board has hosted many more) who were waitlisted or denied at multiple schools where they appeared to be at the median stat-wise. I think the sailboat/envronmental clean-up EC is a great opportunity for Cangel's D to move to the top of a 50 percentile cohort, but would be a bit skittish of a final app list with say, three matches and one "looks like a safety but only accepts 30% of all applicants." Not enough margin of error.

Finally, keep in mind that a school that is a safety stat-wise may be a match academically and socially. More selective means just that. . .more selective; not better or best, particularly in individual cases.

As for how to show interest without visiting. . .clearly many students get accepted, even to LACs where expressed interest is a big deal, without a visit. Other ways to show interest: student calls to make a personal connection with an admissions rep - ideally the regional rep if there is one - and then follows up via phone and e-mail with meaningful inquiries about academics, ECs and other issues; student contacts the school to learn of any opportunity to meet with an admissions rep in your area, and then attends one, even if you have to drive a distance to do so; find alumni in your area and have your student contact them, even if there isn't an official alumni rep/interview program. One good strategy would be to see if there are any alums on the faculty at area colleges and universities. Meet to talk about the school and to ask the alum to convey your interest to the admissions department.

That said, Northfield is acutally pretty easy to get to - about 40 minutes from the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport. Carleton's admissions office runs a $10 airport shuttle, though you may be on your own getting across town to St. Olaf ;-).

By Marianne (Marianne) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:13 pm: Edit

I agree that great literature is about human struggle. It's also about other things, and there is no reason not to discuss those other things simply because the work itself is about human struggle. And while we're on the topic of race, it's important to compare how an author depicts the human struggle of a white person with how he depicts the human struggle of an african american person.
If yankee PhDs can't understand Faulkner's time and place, I guess no one should read him but people who grew up when and where he did!

By Asimplemind (Asimplemind) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 07:29 am: Edit

SoozieVT

I meant to type high match not saftey regarding your statement re Tufts. Simple and consicely stated, in my opinion, if you look at the stats, Vassar is as hard to get into if not harder than Tufts. Your initial post on this thread stated otherwise.
As to personal experience, I know two Tufts students who are not happy there and discouraged my S from applying even [in reply to your statement that a student applied ED didnt like the social scene and then changed it to RD and was waitlisted...what does that have to do with what we were discussing except to try to undermine Vassar in comparison to Tufts?]

But as someone else posted, enough said!

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 10:35 am: Edit

Sorry about posting about her friend who looked at Vassar. I never meant to say that Vassar was not fantastic cause I am sure it is! I meant how for each kid it is about fit and for that one girl, it wasn't the right one. Actually my other D knows two kids into theater who go to Vassar, one from NY and one from London and both like it very much. In no way would I ever put down Vassar and am not really into comparisons with colleges. I mostly meant to give the facts as I knew them at the school I know more about, Tufts. I hope I clearly stated that Vassar was in a similar league and I only had a gut feeling that Tufts might be slightly harder to get into as the admit rate is different but that it may not even be true, as I truly do not know. Both schools are matches. I am not sure the difficulty of getting into Vassar. I just know how hard it has been for some very top students to get into Tufts cause I have interviewed them for years and am amazed at how few can get in. That could be just as true for Vassar, but I simply have no expereince with the school. I have recommended Vassar as a match school for many kids who are excellent students and would continue to do so. My own child had Vassar on her preliminary very early list of 30 schools in fall of junior year. But she had to whittle the list down and when she decided she might want to study architecture, Vassar, as well as many other fine schools, came off the list. Otherwise, she would have looked at Vassar for sure.

I certainly NEVER meant to undermine Vassar.

Susan

By Cangel (Cangel) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:20 am: Edit

I'm bumping this back up rather than starting a new thread. Someone, Jamimom, maybe, mentioned Mary Washington on the "Another safety school question thread" - can anyone tell me anything concrete about Mary Washington College? Daughter showed me website, we both thought it was relatively unhelpful.
Current potential safety list:
Rhodes, St. Olaf, Trinity University in SA, University of Richmond, College of Wooster, MAry Washington (if we can find out anything meaningful about it! Is it a suitcase school?)
How's that for geographic diversity. I think she will apply to 2 of these.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

Cangle:

Do you have a copy of the US NEWS/World Report College Rankings (American's Best Colleges)? The overall ranking are fairly meaningless, but it is a very hand resource for LAC fans because they list the LAC's on a separate listing, 214 of them. Each entry give the state, the academic reputation poll results, the median SAT scores, the acceptance rates, and so on and so forth. Then, there is a capsule listing for each school giving enrollment size, diveristy stats, etc.

Coupled with a Fisk and/or Princeton Review guide for more detailed descriptions, this is VERY handy. As we did our college tours in the car, we would read the guidebook descriptions out loud and talk about them as we approached a college.

If you subscribe the the US News on-line version of their list ($10 for a year, I think), the LAC list is sortable by any category. So you can sort it by admissions "odds". This highlights some very good bargains -- easy acceptance rates, high academic reputation. An example is the Univ. of the South in Suwanee. A 3.5 on the academic peer rating (same as Boston College), but a 71% acceptance rate. Rhodes is another example of a good academic reputation and high acceptance rate.

BTW, my honest opinion is that you can aim a reasonably high for a "safety". Just about anything on the the bottom half of the TOP 50 list should be very safe for your D. My daughter had picked out Dickenson in PA as a "stone cold" safety. These are schools that should be willing to give someone with your D's stats pretty serious merit ("bribe") money.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

Your daughter's stats and profile give her a wide open field for matches and reaches. For safeties consider some of the schools in the "Patriot League". Also Gettysburg, Dickenson, F&M are also good bets for her. Hamilton, Union, Kenyon are also safeties in her case. The all women colleges are also a consideration and many of the "regulars" on this forum found that their D's who originally did not want to consider single sex schools found them high on their lists when they investigated them. Skidmore is a another strong school that pops into mind.

Some of my favorite underated schools are in the south. I like Mary Washington, St Mary's of MD, College of Charleston, for example. I've known kids who have gone to these schools and loved the experience.

In your daughter's case, a more selective safety would not be a wild risk. Especially if you are sure about the financial issue. The thing I like about the above schools is their price tags as well as their environment.

By Roma (Roma) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:51 am: Edit

What are we supposed to do when Pomona is giving my D 10000 more than Amherst? Is it worth it to take the bigger loan?

By Cangel (Cangel) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Jamimom, can you tell me anything about Mary Washington - is it a suitcase school since it's public? Everything I can find about it just says that it's lovely and the students are happy. We're trying to firm up visits, and since we must go in June, I'm not sure how informative they will be anyway.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

I have visited Mary Washington and found it is a lovely school. I sat in on a day's worth of classes and was impressed. It is every bit as nice as many of the private LACs mentioned. It may have a higher suitcase population because it is a state school but those numbers can be checked in the USNews Guide or from the school itself. The location is great, about an hour from DC on the tail end of the train line, in a lovely tourist town near suburbia. The best of it all without being drenched in any one setting.

The only thing that made me hesitate was its former history as a female school as I was looking at it with S. It did not really hit until I was looking at some alumni magazines outside of the admissions office and could see that all of the older alums were women.

A very good friend of mine graduated from there, loved it and has sent her daughter there who loves it as well. I think it would make a great safety for your D as I truly believe that a safety is a school that needs to come through even when things go all wrong. That includes financial and home situations. MW is not as far as some schools for you, is attractively priced and is one of the best deals as a public LAC as they come. You may also want to take a peek at UNC Asheville and St Mary's of MD. Same category.

I urge you to visit the schools. My opinion of MW went way up after the visit. We also looked at Wash & Lee, another school in Va , private but not as pricy as many LAC, which has gone coed the other direction, from all male. S did not like it as much as he did MW, and my personal take was the same. I really liked that school.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:38 pm: Edit

>> In your daughter's case, a more selective safety would not be a wild risk.

I agree with Jamimom's list of appropriate safeties for Cangel's daughter.

I learned a lot from seeing where my daughter's class this year is going to college because there is a heavy preference for LACs. Her high school is a decent regional public high school in distant suburb/rural area. Not a magnet school. Not a school that offers many AP courses, etc. Average SATs are about 1060. And, being from Mass is a disadvantage, IMO, because the New England LAC's get so many local applicants.

From the top of her class of 225, #1 is going to Williams, #2 to Swarthmore, #3 to Bowdoin, #4 to Georgia Tech (chosen over Carnegie Mellon). Another student from the top 5% is going to Colby or Hamilton (haven't heard the final decision).

There is a second Bowdoin and a Cornell from the top 10% of the class, although these two may have involved a football/sports hook. Otherwise, there were no racial, ethnic, or socio-economic hooks and no outstanding national level awards or ECs.

I don't believe that there were any extraordinary SAT scores either -- roughly 1400 to 1500 as near as I can tell, but these kids (all of whom are close friends) had very little discussion of test scores.

As another point of reference, I believe that another girl (from near the 10% cutoff with a 1350 SAT) is going to Gettysburg.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Roma, are you from the west or east coast? Is it $10k over 4 years or per year? Can you scape up the difference or will it have to be loans? What is the family feeling about college choice? How does D feel about each school. All important factors in picking one school over another. I am familiar with the east coast schools and Amherst is one of my favorites. I am a LAC troll for myself. I would pick Amherst and Williams over most of the ivies for ME. The west coast has not been on my radar screen but there are kids who have gone there for college and it has widened their horizons considerably. You are asking about what is probably the top LAC on the West coast and comparing to its east coast counterpart, consortium and all. Basically, you need to weigh the importance of the financial aspect in with the environment issue. Big difference in surroundings. But academically and reputation wise, they are very close and you cannot lose at either school that way.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Yes, I would think that location and surroundings would have to be a primary reason for a choice between Pomona and Amherst. You can't get two more different environments, attitudes, and climates than SoCal and Western Mass.

I also think parents and their kids need to talk through the realities of going to school thousands of miles away from home. I went to school 1000 miles from home and enjoyed it. But, there are some disadvantages and some feelings of isolation when all your dorm friends go home for a long weekend and it is impractical for you to fly home only to turn around and fly back. For example, odds are that it won't make sense to fly home for Thanksgiving.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Thanksgiving -- depends on your finances, i think. My D's roommate is from Cal and flew home for Thanksgiving -- and one parent even came out for parents' weekend. One of my D's HS friends is at Pomona and came home to DC for Thanksgiving, too.

With some of the discount carriers, you can probably get across the country for $99 each way so it's not prohibitive. My guess is that she may not go home next year, though.

By Wlrsqtr (Wlrsqtr) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:28 pm: Edit

I would be very careful on the LAC safeties. A friend of my daughters only got into her safeties, had not visited and now is not happy with any of them at all. My daughter has chosen one of her safeties (Rice) (she got into some ivy league & top 10 schools) because she likes it the best. I am convinced now that visiting safeties is one of the most critical parts of college selection. The kids who got burned at Ds school put together a list of big state schools for safeties (when they really wanted mid sized schools), or didn't explore enough at smaller safeties (Dickenson may not be a very good place for a top writer but Bard or Sarah Lawrence might be).

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:42 pm: Edit

>> Thanksgiving -- depends on your finances,

Yes, it does. My Williams' roomate used to have the family jet fly in to pick him up. Alas, for most of us mere mortals, finances are usually an issue with $40,000 a year college costs!

As for discount airfares: as someone who has flown out of Logan in Boston for many years, I can pretty much guarantee that you won't be finding any $99 fares on the day before Thanksgiving. You also have to figure the travel time. It's pretty much an all day journey to get from Amherst to a home in the LA area.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:45 pm: Edit

That's true, I had forgotten about the Thanksgiving blackout dates. Although some schools seem to have the whole week off, which might enable you to get a cheaper fare the weekend before TG. My D came home the Tues before TG and found that many of her HS friends had been home since the previous Friday!

I could use a family jet...

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

It can make a huge difference if you have to scrape by to afford the school. My former neighbor's D went to U of Colorado/Boulder for college. It was clearly understood that trips home would be limited. She got into a terrible car accident, and that ended any budget right there. Pennsylvania to Colorado ASAP means European tour prices. You don't ask how much when your kid is hurt. They ended up having to bring her home since she had some long term issues with her injuries--a year of rehab. That trip alone was a couple of year's vacation, but they were just grateful she was going to be all right. Knew another family in western Pa that got to a point where they were cursing the PA to Hanover, NH jaunt. Can't wait to do it to visit the school in the glow of the acceptance letter. A couple of years later when you trudge up there to see your kid in some event or ceremony, in winter (and it is a long winter), you better not be in such a hurry. It can be quite a trip.

All considerations albeit not the most important.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 01:58 pm: Edit

I agree not the most important factor, but one that should be part of the overall mix.

I remember my parents complaining about the DC to Ithaca drive when one of my sister's was a student at Cornell ... they said it was a pretty drive, but very long and potentially awful in winter. And getting to DC from Ithaca by plane/train was either not possible or extremely expensive.

I certainly agree that if you're stretching finances to send the kid to college in the first place, even a little bit for a three-day trip home is going to be difficult and probably not worth it!!

By Cangel (Cangel) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Distance is important, as is how easy is the trip. D started out at christmas saying she wanted to be at least 1000 miles away from home. She has flown some, but not really taken many long car trips. After doing a 1000 mile car roundtrip to look at a couple of schools, she's getting a better appreciation of how far FAR is, and she's more interested in places 500 miles away. This may be an area where they need our info and guidance - as in "OK, so you're at Williams (for example, bear with me), that's a couple of hours to the nearest major airport, then fly home 3 hours flying time, plus 45 min layover to change planes - that's one full day to get home - can't do that for T'giving." I don't think she thinks that way, but outlined for her, she would consider it - she's a thinker, a "ponderer"

By Roma (Roma) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

first, thank you very much for the answers.
I am the parent (mom). We came 4 years ago from Europe, with jobs, and the money isn't as good as expected for us. I'm pretty sure my D will match the exact profile of a Amherst student, mostly due to her sarcastic humor and very serious approach to both work and fun. We live in Chicago. She already passed the offers of both Northwestern and U of Chicago, mainly because we've insisted that she should get a real student life and a different/new perspective of what America is. California might be a very nice experience, but we'd prefer academics above all. I'm not very sure about how close Pomona will truly compare to Amherst; and I simply hate to make this decision about money. Nevertheless, we're happy with a LAC education. My other concern would be why is that the students at Pomona double-major in a percentage of only about 6 (I've read), and those of Amherst - 35%. It might be the curriculum at P, but there should also be more than that. What if the warm and generous atmosphere at Pomona would be less conducive to hard study...
Thanks again for showing the interest. very appreciated!
The intended majors: math and philosophy

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:25 pm: Edit

The largest percentage of Pomona's students come from California. The largest percentage of Amherst's students come from the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic.

The "culture" of those two regions is VERY different. If I were in your shoes, I would sit down with my D and try to make an honest assessment of her personality and where she would best fit in and find friendship. As a whole, Chicago is much closer in character to the Northeast than it would be to suburban Los Angeles.

The two locations are SO different that I've having a hard time seeing how a student could even be attracted to both. Have you visited both? Does your daughter have a preference?

Academic and other "intellectural" issues such as "percentage of double-majors" or "intended majors" would be totally irrelevant to the decision, IMO. Pomona versus Amherst is totally a life-style issue.

To be perfectly honest, I think my New Englander daughter would have to make a pretty jarring transition to a SoCal campus. Likewise, I think SoCal kids are in for a fairly rude shock when they arrive in the Northeast.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

I agree with Interesteddad fully.

By Roma (Roma) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:38 pm: Edit

We're aware of the similarities btw Amherst's Northwestern culture and style and those of Chicago, most importantly of those with the European culture, from which we came so recently. OTOH, the bigger the challenge - the greater the reward. She had to adjust to America at a very fast pace so it won't be a problem for the next step. It might even soften her a little bit to go West and endulge some more. Also, believe me, I feel the pain of not being able to provide better and take the short route which seems to be passing through Amherst. And I'm not talking about distance, which is a plane away anyway...

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Ten grand is ten grand. I've always felt that financial considerations are legitimately at the top of the list.

I would never disagree with a financial decision in college selection. In fact, I told my daughter that, had we lived in VA, she should have gotten herself really excited about UVa.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

My sister in law is European and she loves the West Coast much more than the east. She is a Tufts graduate and a Harvard MBA who has spent some years working in Boston and NYC. She has been in California for several years now and loves it there. Does not want to come back east. So going to Pomona would certainly broaden her view of the US to more than what many Americans have. Most of us here on the East coast are far removed from the Californean lifestyle.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

>>It might even soften her a little bit to go West and endulge some more.

That was a large part of the motivation for our daughter looking at some southern schools. It didn't end up working out that way, but we considered the benefits. My daughter was pretty determined to expand her horizons beyond New England.

Fortuntately, most of the midwest (and Chicago suburbs) tend to be culturally-neutral, without the "tofu valley girl" or "brusque New Yawker" extremes that could use some softening in SoCal and the Northeast.

By Roma (Roma) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit

We couldn't aford to visit, so the decision would be made based solely on information taken from here or anywhere else on the net. The money problem might be only a temporary issue, since the economy has to go back up someday. Now, although I was the one to put Amherst on my D's list in the first place, I remember being the first to put Pomona into discussion as an interesting competitor, even at a time when we didn't have the fin aid offer. I truly think we'll never know which choice is best for someone's personality either. Everybody's changing during life time and the best way to evaluate the potential is to look at the parents and recognize the pattern. That's why parents are required to interfere during times like these, give advice and try to put themselves into their children's shoes (they fit so well, even if it doesn't particularily feel that way at 18 as opposed to 40-something).
In conclusion, not talking money, I sense how you suggest that Amherst would be the better choice.
Thanks again and good luck to all of you. I've followed every discussion group with great interest and I'm happy for your kids successes.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

>> In conclusion, not talking money, I sense how you suggest that Amherst would be the better choice.

I didn't mean to imply that Amherst would be the better choice. I don't know your daughter.

I know MY daughter, and I think Amherst would probably be the more comfortable/familiar environment for her. But, I could just as easily point to some other daughter and think Pomona would be the way to go. It's all about individuals.

There is no question that, on a purely objective basis, SoCal is a much "nicer" enviroment than New England. There is no way to describe the weather in Amherst as anything but terrible for 7 months of the nine-month school year. The foothills in SoCal have great weather.

By Roma (Roma) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

D is the downtown school-home type, but, as I said, college should be mostly about academics and a learning process in every aspect, if possible. Growing up, adventure, change, all of this is requested and should be encouraged, even with sacrifice from both parts (parents and kids). I only have this one kid and that makes this moment so much more intense. I can't let go until May 1st, anyway.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 06:21 pm: Edit

I wouldn't worry about the academics of Pomona vs. those if Amherst. One opinion. If that helps. There gets to be a point where slicing the salami of merit is meaningless with respect to an individual and his/her wants, desires, and fit. Pomona and Amherst, imo, are close enough that one can choose on other bases.

(The issue is fresh on my mind because of my D's choice of Smith over Wellesley, which some people were agog at.)

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 01:26 am: Edit

InterestedDad, I have my own constructs but please elucidate as to the culture shock of SoCal kids going to the Northeast.

For me and mine, this is a non-academic exercise.
Though it's also part of D's point in choosing New England.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 02:45 am: Edit

TheDad:

I don't know where to start:

a) the weather in New England is atrocious. I will never forget visiting Atlanta during April of my senior year at Williams. It was like going from a black & white movie to color. We came home and it snowed a foot. Or, when I moved from Atlanta back to Massachusetts... sitting at breakfast in March staring out at piles of dirty gray snow six feet tall and a temp of about 29 degrees and being shocked when the man on radio was joyously proclaiming "a hint of spring in the air". Or, our first summer at Plum Island, giving what was supposed to be an afternoon cookout for my work friends in the middle of June and having to move indoors because everyone was too cold. The weather will be a shock to a SoCal'er.

b) New Englanders have pasty white skin. Forget those SoCal suntans.

c) New England is the most rabidly anti-develoment region of the country. New subdivisions? Forgettaboutit. My town has two-acre zoning and dirt roads that the voters at Town Meetin' will NOT allow the town to pave on general principle because then people could actually drive around. New shopping malls? Hah! It takes five years worth of hearings to build a McDonalds. Believe me, this will be massive culture shock to anyone from the land of suburban sprawl.

d) New Englanders talk very, very funny. The town of Worcester is pronounced "Wus-ta".

e) We are viscious. Example: last week at the Red Sox/Yankee game at Fenway, every time Giambi came up to bat, the entire ballpark began a loud chant, "YOU DO STEROIDS, YOU DO STEROIDS, YOU DO STEROIDS".

f) We are crazy. The stadium was packed for the Pats first playoff game this year: temperature at the 8:00 pm kickoff? Minus 5 degrees. Think the fashionably late arriving Dodger fans would do that?

g) Teenage girls in New England do NOT shop for "outfits".

h) Politics. Your guys are lightweights. The most powerful man in Massachusetts politics over the last two decades was Billy Bulger (pres. of the state senate and, more recently, retired to a cush patronage job at $1 million a year as President of UMass). Billy ran Mass politics with an iron fist. Nobody got a state job or ran for office without scratching Billy's back. His brother, Whitey Bulger, is on the FBI's most wanted list for his career as a mob boss (murder, racketeering, and extortion charges). When asked at a US Senate hearing on corruption last year if his brother Whitey had ever applied pressure to Billy's political opponents, Billy replied, "No, I don't believe I have any specific recollection of that...." Oh, and then there was the time that Brother Whitey won the state lottery. Now, there's a coincidence. Billy claims to have no knowledge of his mobster brother's whereabouts, even though the FBI has wiretaps of arrangements being made for his brother to call him at payphone.

i) Wait 'til you get a load of Boston's Mayor "Mumbles" Menino. He's a piece of work. The guy literally cannot string three intelligible words together. He can't even pronounce his own name! The owner of the New England Patriots tried to build a stadium WITH $300 MILLION OF HIS OWN MONEY on vacant land next to the new convention center in downtown Boston. But, Mayor Mumbles and the local "Southie" pols shot him down because he hadn't greased the right palms.

I love it here. But, it is definitely an acquired taste for anyone coming from the sunbelt. It's the polar opposite of So. California. Tell your daughter to just have fun with it. It's like when I used to hate going to Miami. My problem was that I expected it to be like American cities. Once I accepted it for what it is (the capitol of South America) I started to love Miami, eating Cuban food, going to Nicaraguan steak houses. It's all in the mindset.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

I don't know where to start:

Oh, but you did a good job!

a) the weather in New England is atrocious. The weather will be a shock to a SoCal'er.

Okay. Factored in.

b) New Englanders have pasty white skin. Forget those SoCal suntans.

D is not a sun-and-beach person. I myself have very fair skin and wear longsleeve shirts 99 percent of the time. I have been mistaken for Moby Dick.

c) New England is the most rabidly anti-develoment region of the country. Believe me, this will be massive culture shock to anyone from the land of suburban sprawl.

One of the things she finds interesting/different about New England.

d) New Englanders talk very, very funny. The town of Worcester is pronounced "Wus-ta".

When it comes to dialects, she's a disciple of Henry Higgins. So far in her brief times there she has been able to understand and be understood. I do have the temptation sometimes to ask "Which tram proceeds to an estuary" after being given directions but this is a tic of mine, I suspect.

e) We are viscious. Example: last week at the Red Sox/Yankee game at Fenway, every time Giambi came up to bat, the entire ballpark began a loud chant, "YOU DO STEROIDS, YOU DO STEROIDS, YOU DO STEROIDS".

D has been told several times that now she will have to become a Red Sox fan. While far from being a sports junkie, I believe this might be acceptable to her. And as her dad is a 40-year Cubs fan, there will some certain bonds.

f) We are crazy. The stadium was packed for the Pats first playoff game this year: temperature at the 8:00 pm kickoff? Minus 5 degrees. Think the fashionably late arriving Dodger fans would do that?

Ummm...one doesn't need to look at your sports behavior to know that. Just look at whoever designed the traffic flow. I was looking carefully...the volume of cars isn't really that big but y'all are *so* bloody inefficient. I wanted to re-draw lane lines, synch traffic lights, put in left-turn lanes...and this was just on a short drive from Cambridge to Wellesley.

But I digress. The craziness can be entertainment.

g) Teenage girls in New England do NOT shop for "outfits".

In the sense you mean, D doesn't either.

h) Politics. Your guys are lightweights. The most powerful man in Massachusetts politics over the last two decades was Billy Bulger....

I read the NYT, even if D mostly doesn't. I don't think any of this will affect her, she's mostly focused on national anyway.

i) Wait 'til you get a load of Boston's Mayor "Mumbles" Menino. He's a piece of work.

Eh. True that we're penny ante on the graft and corruption front. But as an old Chicago kid, I say it's good that D acquire an understanding of how other parts of the country work.

I love it here. But, it is definitely an acquired taste for anyone coming from the sunbelt. It's the polar opposite of So. California. Tell your daughter to just have fun with it.

Well, when I asked the cabbie at Logan to take me somwhere that I could get scrod, he said, "Ain't often you hear the future perfect subjunctive."

Charming.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

>> Ummm...one doesn't need to look at your sports behavior to know that. Just look at whoever designed the traffic flow. I was looking carefully...the volume of cars isn't really that big but y'all are *so* bloody inefficient. I wanted to re-draw lane lines, synch traffic lights, put in left-turn lanes...and this was just on a short drive from Cambridge to Wellesley.

That's all a function of:

a) the hatred of development (until the big dig, there hadn't been a road built in Massachusetts since Eisenhower was president).

b) hatred of cars and everything they represent. The goal is to make life as miserable for people who drive cars as possible.

c) political corruption. Things like synched traffic lights require a professional civil service. Here, those jobs go to the idiot son of Billy Bulger's third cousin's girlfriend. On a related note, all those friendly MASSPORT cops directing traffic at Logan owe their jobs to Billy Bulger. I had one try to give me a ticket for pulling up the curb (where my wife was waiting) and popping the trunk for her to throw her suitcase in, before climbing into the passenger seat. He rudely asked me if I could read the NO PARKING sign! Sheesh.

Oh, I should probably tell your daughter about the infamous "Boston left turn". Used in any situation requiring a left turn, the goal of the maneuver is to pull out across on-coming traffic and stop, waiting for the lane you want to pull into to clear. A perfect maneuver will block at least three lanes of on-coming traffic.

In an ideal scenario, two cars will be pulling "Boston left turns" on either side of a traffic light, thus bringing traffic in all directions to a standstill, even when the light turns green. A perfectly executed twin Boston left turn can cause gridlock rippling down to the Rhode Island border.

On the plus side, at least we can drive in rain!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Oh, and I think you could afford to ditch the tollbooths, too.

I think much could be accomplished vis a vis traffic flow without building much in the way of new highways at all...it's a question of making what you *do* have rational. Not to mention well-signed.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 07:44 pm: Edit

InterestedDad....in reading about the anti-development stuff in your state and particularly in the town you live in (which I know), I think your community has stuff in common with ours. But just know that here in VT, it is taken to a much much further extreme. It is very very anti-development. We have NO traffic lights in our town. Our state is the only state whose capital does not have a McDonalds, nor will anyone allow one. Our community would never ever allow anything remotely like fast food in here. I know one community like ours that has a McDonalds but you would NEVER know from the outside that it was a McDonalds....no yellow arches, nada. Our state does not allow billboards.

If you only know the controversy for years in our community over the ski resort in town building an intertie lift to join two related ski areas....you have NO idea. It was the bear habitat folks against the outdoor sports enthusiasts. And when the resort wanted to build a hotel a number of years ago (a resort type lodge at the base no less where there IS some development such as condos, etc), there were groups from all over the US opposing building it. While I love that our community really really values aesthetics and the environment and controls what is built here, how high on the ridges you can build, you name it...sometimes it is taken to an extreme...like a hotel at the base of the ski resort where there is some development anyway....well the opposition from places like the Conservation Law Foundation and what not kept it from being built, though actually this year, they are building a time share resort lodge at the base afterall.

By the way, I live on a dirt road as well. They would never pave the majority of roads here.

And cell phones? They barely work in many places in this area...which can be a pain for locals and certainly bothers cityfolk tourists when they come for vacation and do not have the "comforts" of home. But to get more reception around this mountain area, they need more cell towers...major issue....would never be allowed to show....there are proposals to put them in church steeples (remember the little VT which churches) and opposition to that too.

Well I could go on but I can relate to your community but take it further in my neck of the woods (and it IS woods).

As far as New England teenage girls not wearing outfits, I concur basically but at Smith or any selective school in New England, the teens will come from all over so they do not really represent New England in that way. I can vouch for the Dad's daughter in saying she was not dressed like you might have thought an LA teen would be. She actually was dressed more New England conservative in khakis and a cardigan. That may change at Smith where there were lots of interesting clothing but she will have fun exploring new territory. She surely won't have the shopping she is used to though!

I do agree about the cultural shock of going to college across the country. But this can also be accomplished by simply going to college in an environment very different from where you grew up. My daughter wanted that actually, while still staying on the east coast. She grew up entirely in rural Vermont and while she loves it here, wants to explore a different environment and that was one of the appealing aspects of several schools on her list where you could actually walk into town or a city. Here you cannot walk to anything (unless a walk through the woods). While she is not really a city person and would never entertain the idea of Columbia or NYU, she liked how at schools like Brown, Tufts, Smith....one could walk into town or have access (in the first two cases) to everything a city offers very very close by, while not being smack downtown. So, that can be cultural shock too without going 3000 miles away. Even your daughter, had she gone to one of the southern schools she was contemplating might have been in for a little change too!

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 07:52 pm: Edit

>> Oh, and I think you could afford to ditch the tollbooths, too.

Ha, ha, ha. Ditch the tollbooths. That's a good one! The Mass Turnpike Authority is one of the biggest political fiefdoms known to man. Those toll-booth jobs are among the most cherished of all patronage positions in the state. Heck, some of the people collecting pay checks for those jobs have been dead for years. Driving snow plows for the Turnpike Authority ranks right up there.

>> it's a question of making what you *do* have rational. Not to mention well-signed.

You quickly learn that maps and road signs are totally useless in and around Boston. About the only strategy is to look at a map before you leave to establish a general heading and then hope that you can keep it aimed in more or less the right direction as you sniff your way around. Even that can be easier said than done after a couple of unintentional laps around Boston Common on one way streets. I have, on more than one occasion, driven for fifteen minutes and ended up back exactly where I started! I know I tend to figure out one route I can handle into and out of the city and stick with it. Of course, the Big Dig fouled all that up. It changed EVERY day.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

I.D., I had actually driven in Boston/Cambridge once about 30 years ago and came away with the dictum: "It's easy to drive in Boston. You need a three-man crew: driver, navigator, tail-gunner."

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Cangel: are you still there?

If so, the discussion here has focused on LACs because that was the language used in your original post. However, there is no reason to limit the possibilities to schools that fall under the strict LAC definition.

Our S (NOCAL, not SOCAL) has wanted to go to school Back East, but we all agreed that most LACs were a little smaller than we liked for maximum opportunities. Accordingly, we looked at smaller universities in the Northest, and you should consider them also. I'm speaking of schools with an undergraduate population of say 3000 -7000 students. We visited four or five and S applied to all but one. These schools, with one exception, are among those mentioned in an earlier post as schools that provide merit scholarships for top students, with the aim of raising the overall stats of the student body. However, contrary to some opinions, the education is not second-rate but approaches (and in some subjects, exceeds) that of the best.

I'm referring to schools such as Brandeis (where S will be attending), Rochester (a very close second and said to be very effective in placing its graduates in medical school), Carnegie-Mellon, and Case Western Reserve. Based on the stats, your D should receive a sizable merit scholarship at any of these, if accepted, and should have a good chance of being accepted. Of course, there is a matter of cold weather, but if that's an issue then you shouldn't consider any school in the Northeast.

About Tufts - I agree that Tufts is a fine school, and and neither a match not a safety for anyone. The school has a massive number of applications and a low acceptance rate - right there with the Ivies. However, it does not offer merit-based scholarships.

Good luck with all of this, from one who has completed this stage.

By Cangel (Cangel) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Yes, I'm still here, following the discussion of Boston traffic with much amusement. I've driven there twice, once before the Big Dig, and once during - honestly this lil' ole' Southern gal couldn't tell much difference! Do they have a cultural aversion to road signs on the freeway? That's what I remember, "The exit YOU wanted was back there!".
I think those suggestions may be great ones (Case Western, Brandeis, etc), DH and I actually think that 3-7000 is probably the perfect size for a school, but we're having a hard time convincing DD of that. Does anyone think geographic "diversity" would come into play, either with admission or scholarship?
Also DH and I aren't limiting her on distance in any way, but we will have discussions about how hard it will be to get back and forth to a given school when she actually starts applying. We are kind of "end of the line" in terms of airline flights, it's expensive and time consuming to get here. I worry about places like Williams where there's a drive to get to the airport

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Geographical diversity may be a plus at either school since they do receive a lot of applications from the more immediate locality.

However, based on your D's information I think that any of these schools would be chomping at the bit to have her as a student (and offer merit scholarships) despite the fact that she hasn't changed the world yet or (like most of us) has the talent to play in a band but doesn't feel quite up to doing front-stage solos (Rochester, by the way, has one of the best music schools in the country).

Tufts is a fine school (our S was accepted there) and is regarded as being be excellent in history and international relations), but offers only need-based aid. Rochester is regarded as excellent in poly sci (as is Tufts). All of the schools I mentioned have highly rated science programs, with certain schools excelling more in one subject than another.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Cangel -- VA is notoriously bad at roadsigns too. By the time you see the sign, it's too late to get off the highway!

As for school size, I don't remember if you said your D has done visits yet. Just wanted to relate my D's experience -- went to a small HS, which she liked. Thought that a LAC with 1500 people would be big, since her HS was only about 250. Initially was focused on LACs, visited a few (Swat, Haverford, Bryn Mawr, Amherst, Wellesley...) then some universities (Yale, Brown, Princeton) and switched her preference to a bigger school. I think she realized that there is so much more going on at bigger schools, more kids to meet, more groups, performances, parties, etc. In the end, she said "I know everyone at my HS, and they all know me, which is nice, but I want to go somewhere where I'll continue to meet new people after the first year." I guess the bottom line is she should keep an open mind, and she might change her mind after some visits -- make sure you visit universities as well as LACs if she hasn't done so already!

Also, Oberlin and Wesleyan are both on the bigger side for LACs (both around 3000 undergrads).

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit

>> Does anyone think geographic "diversity" would come into play

To a slight degree, it can...depending on the school. Less so at many of the best known New England schools because they are "destination" schools. Geographic diversity is probably more beneficial in a "reverse commute": dang Yankees applying to Southern and Midwestern schools. It is true that most schools, regardless of where they are located, get the largest percentage of applications from surrounding areas.

Harvard actually started the geographic diversity "kick" back in the 1930s as a disingenuos justification for limiting the burgeoning enrollment of Jewish students from New York and the Northeast. The first proposal was for an outright quota, but that got shot down as being a little too blatantly anti-Semitic. So they concocted "geographic diversity" as a new admissions goal and reduced the reliance on standardized testing that the Jewish applicants had been acing in disporportionally high numbers.

>> Also DH and I aren't limiting her on distance in any way, but we will have discussions about how hard it will be to get back and forth to a given school when she actually starts applying. We are kind of "end of the line" in terms of airline flights, it's expensive and time consuming to get here. I worry about places like Williams where there's a drive to get to the airport.

Your family is approaching this in rational way. I really believe that more people should take the pragmatic approach to selecting colleges. For example, my daughter was interested in Emory and William & Mary. Although W&M is much closer by car, it was actually far less convenient than Emory because of the air service between Boston and Atlanta.

Having its own train station on campus was a major plus for Swarthmore. Not only because my daughter will have door to door service to the airport (with $29 Southwest fares to Boston), but the rail service gives her an easy Saturday afternoon break from the ivory tower to downtown Phila. when the inevitable need for breath of real-world air sets in. For example, door to door train serice to the large arena or smaller venues downtown for concerts. She can also be in downtown New York or Washington within 2 hours from her dorm room.

In all honesty, this is probably the biggest single reason my daughter originally fell in love with Swarthmore over Williams (and frankly over most LACs). It was also an advantage over Emory, where, despite the short distance to the city, most of Atlanta is really not convenient from the Emory campus without a car. I am a big believer that forcing yourself to get away from campus, even for a few hours every couple of weeks, is an vital part of staying sane in a heavy workload college. 99% of the time, that small, close-knit campus community is great, but then you want to scream!

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 05:44 pm: Edit

>> In the end, she said "I know everyone at my HS, and they all know me, which is nice, but I want to go somewhere where I'll continue to meet new people after the first year."

To be perfectly honest, I never met three quarters of the people at a school with 1600 students. That may be a bit of red herring.

What is a legitimate issue is that there will be a wider variety of people and activities at a larger school. To the extent that you don't match up with the dominant student personality at a school, this can be beneficial. So, for example, if you hate polo shirts and frat parties and end up at a school like Vandy, then it is a good thing that the size of Vandy gives you the ability to find some other folk who don't partake in the dominant culture of the school. Of course, option B would be to find a school where Polo shirts and frat parties aren't the dominant culture in the first place!

I do agree that a small university with 5000 undergrads is a good size as far as diversity of interest and activities. Unfortunately, it's also a size where the large class, TAs, and emphasis on graduate research has also been crossed. Pluses and minuses to all of them. We never found a school that didn't have some warts.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I agree about the warts -- there are pros and cons to every school. My D did talk with several LAC graduates (and current students) who agreed with her about the "knowing everyone" issue -- I'm sure it wasn't LITERALLY everyone, but the sense that you don't see a lot of people around that you don't know at least by face.

I remember hearing a Swat graduate I know say that there were definitely people at graduation she had NEVER seen before -- she assumed those were the ones perpetuating the Swat stereotype and spending 24-7 in the library!! (she loved Swat btw)

Another problem with the 5-7K size is that it is HARD to find safeties in that size range, esp if you don't want the "Vandy" type atmosphere.

By Dadofsam (Dadofsam) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Cangel: I forgot to put in a proper plug for Brandeis. It has a very high reputation in economics, has one of the best programs for Middle Eastern Studies, and has some excellent science departments.

Another school that you might look at is Wiliam & Mary. Supposedly to be quite good in history; a state university of the size we've been discussing; perhaps someone else can comment on science. We did not look at it because of the location (too far south). Also, I don't know whether it's convenient to an airport.

By Vadad (Vadad) on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 07:40 am: Edit

W&M is only a few minutes from the Richmond airport. Great in the sciences, particularly bio and physics. Very much a LAC feel, though at over 6000 it is considerably larger than the normal LAC.

I'll join the plugs for Davidson. Very generous merit aid programs, if that's a factor. Springtime is the right time to see it. Azaleas had just bloomed when the admitted students weekend was held.