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college stuff... I need Valium....Our son and we were both naive to the college scene and did not realize the strong effect that early decision can have on admissions..While we knew that Middlebury and Dartmouth were real stretches for him ,he did not get into Tufts either although his friends did. (all early decisions).

He got into Skidmore,Kenyon (Ohio- Charlie UMASS/Amherst (honors program). Only Wheaton,MA (Norton, MA) offered him a scholarship $8,000 a year off tuition. Skidmore not a penny and Kenyon a mere pittance. I guess they feel we are wealthy? or his stats were not good enough?

He likes Kenyon and it is made for him.Tailor made except the Ohio in the middle of the sticks scares him....Skidmore(saratoga, NY) he liked also except they are $42,000 a year(they all are $40-42,000 except UMASS/Amherst $15,000 a year....much less less than the private high school he has attended for the last four years.can u believe it? He does not want to be in debt when he gets out of school.All that talk from Dad is working against us parents now I guess (the frugal budgeting be smart with money talks)......HA! Wheaton,MA he will visit on Friday (last school visit yeah!), he likes Wheaton , but worries that the town is boring and the school is too small....and wonders if they have the rep and skill for creative writing like Skidmore and especially Kenyon does....A guy at work here who went to Middlebury) says go into hock for Kenyon.......another employee here who graduated from Harvard) is sending his son to a third tier private college. He would like his son to grow up and mature and doesn't want to waste money.....Meanwhile my son keeps winning awards for creative writing at his school for work that the teachers are forcing him to submit or they are submitting without his permission. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! talent he has,motivation he does not!

Umass/Amherst was absolutely beautiful and the five college consortium (Amherst College,Smith,Hampshire,Mt Holyoke) is attractive because he can take courses at the other schools for no extra cost!. The town is awesome.I wish I went there to college! And they rolled out the carpet for him special dorms for honors, special classes and prof's and they might give him a scholarship off the $15,000 bill......what the heck do we do? We struggled to get to this point in life so taking any economic steps backwards is emotionally disturbing. and I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT GIVING UP LATTE"S and the three vacations a year. We have never gone on a family vacation that wasn't a freebie by staying at a friends house etc.... We can afford about $20,000 a year of education barring eating ramen soup every night. But $42,000 is way beyond my earning power or my wife's capacity to earn. I have suggested a year at UMASS/Amherst. That he grow up and transfer to Skidmore or Kenyon. Yet we are not sure that the transfer strategy would not backfire? But the private school name game is killing us. What do I mean? It is frowned upon to go to a state school out of his high school as they all go to private colleges....they are not PAYING THE Bills though, we are! Help! Any advice this board can provide would be appreciated. Sometimes anonymous advice is the best slap in the face we could get....so beat us up if you will, but please provide advice!

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:29 am: Edit

Kenyon has a wonderful rep for creative writing. It is in the middle of nowhere, but I don't think that's that important if life is interesting at the school. I realize it's more expensive than U-Mass, but you must have been planning on paying those prices if he got into his reach schools, and it offers a similar quality of education.

By Enzom (Enzom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

I feel your pain! My parents sacrificed to send me to Kenyon and it was the best decision we ever made. I dare say that the Kenyon name will carry a lot of weight with graduate schools as well as employers. It is also one of the hottest schools among the top tier LACs nationally. Transferring is certainly an option but I wouldn't bet the farm on him getting in that way. You might actually consider discussing that as an option with your admissions rep at Kenyon. Who knows, maybe they will offer a financial aid package to soften the financial blow. Best of luck to you and your son. By the way, Kenyon has what is probably the best Creative Writing faculty in the country.

By Dstark (Dstark) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:37 am: Edit

I would go to UMass. You don't have to go to college to be a great writer. Steinbeck couldn't hack it at Stanford. He turned out OK. They say Hemingway's style wouldn't pass the new SAT Writing test. He did all right. I don't believe Truman Capote graduated. William Safire is supposedly the most read columnist in the world right now. He didn't graduate from college. The best way to become a great writer is to read and write, write, write.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit

Sorry I did not make myself clear.....He did not get into reach/stretch schools.Middlebury and Dartmouth and Tufts. As I said we were naive as parents and somehow because our friends and relatives kids got at least $10,000 a year in merit awards we somehow plotted along and thought he might be offered the same as his scores were higher than theirs...silly and dumb I know that we did not do more research. Next time with my daughter we will plan better, but we will also have a highly motivated child working with us...trying to get my son to sit down and work on the college process was very trying. any other thoughts?

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:56 am: Edit

Enzom-thanks for your comments- We cannot get financial aid as our EFC is too high according to the Kenyon fin aid officer...I was thinking of writing the Dean and mentioning merit aid....but the fin aid officer said well you can take a loan for the amount above your contribution on a 10 year amortization. That amount would be $15,000 oer year or $60,000 by graduation. The bottom line do we spend another 60,000 (we spent 80,000 on private high school for our son who needs to mature a bit and grow up.I know that it is hard to provide advice but I have found that friends and family are too emotionally involved......

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:59 am: Edit

I understood that he didn't get into the reaches; I meant that if he had, you must have been expecting to pay the 40,000. I understand from your second letter that you thought those schools might have given him merit awards, and only now know that they don't ever.

I still vote for kenyon if at all feasible; what Dstark says is true, but his examples are from a long time ago. Knowing how to negotiate the fellowships, grants, and general ins and outs of the literary publishing world makes success a lot more likely these days, and most successful writers are coming out of the writing workshops.

By Wnydancemom (Wnydancemom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit

UMass sounds like the best option to me, especially since you say that he might be able to transfer and also because you say he is not motivated. And he may not even want to transfer, once he's at UMass in the honors program.

When D and I visited, we were very impressed with the campus, even though we had heard it was "ugly." (it's not!) We got a great feel there, and loved the town, and also the 5 college experience. The main problem for us was the dance department at UMass seemed to be lacking in funds (poor facilities!) without any promise that things would get better. Otherwise, I thought it was a great place, and will encourage next D. to consider it.

I say go for UMass, and if he starts showing motivation, etc, and really decides UMass is not for him, then you can look into transferring.
Good luck!

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Garland.thnaks.what are the writing workshops?

By Driver (Driver) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Agree with Dstark about UMass, and about writing generally. You either have it or you don't, and it sounds like your son has it. No one is ever going to look at his degree to decide whether or not to publish his work (this would perhaps be different if he were writing about history or international affairs, etc.) I can't imagine that Kenyon has anything so incredible to offer to an already talented writer that couldn't be found at UMass for $100K cheaper. And, when you factor in that he will also have access to superb English/Writing/History/Philosophy professors at Amherst, Smith, etc., how can you go wrong with that? I think your private school's priorities are awfully screwed up if they "frown" upon public schools.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Thanks to everyone so far for your comments!

By Wnydancemom (Wnydancemom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 12:26 pm: Edit

UMass sounds like the best option to me, especially since you say that he might be able to transfer and also because you say he is not motivated. And he may not even want to transfer, once he's at UMass in the honors program.

When D and I visited, we were very impressed with the campus, even though we had heard it was "ugly." (it's not!) We got a great feel there, and loved the town, and also the 5 college experience. The main problem for us was the dance department at UMass seemed to be lacking in funds (poor facilities!) without any promise that things would get better. Otherwise, I thought it was a great place, and will encourage next D. to consider it.

I say go for UMass, and if he starts showing motivation, etc, and really decides UMass is not for him, then you can look into transferring.
Good luck!

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Thanks WNYDANCEMOM!

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit

I went to U Ma beforethere was even an honors program, got all A's and then transferred junior jr with a full ride to Tufts. Economically it was a good choice and I have a great privatre practice now but college experience and personal growth wise it was something I will not do for my kids. U Ma is so huge you get lost in the shuffle and don't get to know your profs well. I also never felt I belonged to either school long term as 2 yrs is not quite enough time to get very invested. We are personally going with the small expensive school even though my S had free rides to Uof A and ASU honors program. There is a huge party scene at state schools and U(zoo) Ma is crazy! My husband and brother graduated from there as well and I never want my kids to hear all their stories. Often even though kids are in the honors program they still take many huge classes. It can work and your D will be as successful career wise. I just think that Kenyon can offer so much more intangibles which don't have a price tag. My son's AP History teacher has a child there and raves about her experience. We almost gave up Pomona due to the huge discrepancy in price but appealed our award and when they knew how much my S wanted to go there worked with us. It will involve a huge sacrifice still but I think it is worth it-he is just getting his inheritance early. My husband felt as you do but after our Pomona visit has slowly come around. It is a personalized decision and I have strong feelings so take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure your D will do great wherever she goes and only you know what is right. Good luck.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Thanks Arizonamom and to everyone who has commented thus far. You have no idea how helpful this is. Just to get opinions from others that are dealing with only the facts stated in my opening post- no emotional involvement or pre-conceived notions regarding my son or us......I wish I had known about these boards before he applied to colleges....please keep them coming.I feel better already.no need for valium now....

By Easydoesitmom (Easydoesitmom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:12 pm: Edit

If it were up to me , it would be either UMASS/Amherst or Wheaton . We get the UMASS/Amherst alumni magazine and even though , MA. ,like all states ,have budget problems - they continue to have very strong programs , i.e. if he can hack the big , big campus . If you can afford Kenyon , that's the obvious choice !

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Easydoesitmom.....thanks .. I am confused? You say UMASS or Wheaton.Then say if you can afford it go with Kenyon? Why because you feel Kenyon is the best? And afford is realtive. Does "afford" mean if you can write a check with ease?. We could go deeper in debt and send him there.Like take $60,000-80,000 out in ten year loans and wreck any retirement we might have...remeber we have just worked, worked, and worked. No fun like our neighbors have had....just to send him to private high school. We are not materialistic or wasteful (except that 50.00 bill to cable tv monthly that I think is a waste, but my wife does not) So if we take the loans we can afford it on monthly cash flow but not when it comes to the total family balance sheet..in other words we would have no net worth after sending both kids to private colleges at the ned of the day so to speak.......am I making any sense or do I have my priorities screwed up?

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Songman -- only you and your family can decide if you can make the $$ commitment. It's really impossible for us to say, since we don't know what sacrifices you would have to make (retirement, etc.).

If you decide you are prepared to pay the big bucks, I think Kenyon is the best of the private schools to which he was admitted. But the UMass honors program sounds pretty good, too. I wouldn't feel bad about him going there at all, if you decide the cost of Kenyon is too high.

By Kissy (Kissy) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:47 pm: Edit

I have a different suggestion for you, Songman. U of Iowa - its Writer's Workshop and Creative Writing Dept. enjoy international acclaim, it has an affordable price tag at about 20K/yr.out of state, has rolling admissions and,although midwestern like Kenyon, is in a small city with culture and diversity. Application deadline is April 1 but I've heard that they've even accepted students mid-summer. There is a National Scholars award for out of state applicants who have SAT>1290 for up to 9.5K/yr.

If your son decides to attend UMass and transfer later on, have him check out transfer requirements and acceptance rates at his targeted schools, along with eligibility for merit aid. Many schools reserve merit awards for freshman applicants only and freshman status is defined differently by some colleges. Good luck to him!

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Thanks Kissy......

By Achat (Achat) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

U. of IOWA writer's workshop is very selective. Very very selective. You have to be very careful with your application. There is a Writer's Workshop at JHU which is also very selective.

U of Iowa is the best in the country, though, better than (and please don't flame me), JHU.

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Songman: by workshops, I meant the better intensive undergraduate writing programs, which tend to be pipelines to publishing circles.

I disagree with the "you either have it or you don't" opinion expressed above. No one makes that claim in these forums about aspiring musicians, actors, singers, artists, etc., but suddenly a writer needs no instruction or role model. It's romantizing and wrongheaded. Most writers hone their craft through interaction with other aspiring writers and instruction and guidance with successful writers, so it's important from an artistic standpoint. Also, many very good writers never get published because they don't know how th business works, nor do they get the connections afforded by the best writing programs (of which Kenyon is one.) Iowa is the most famous; I had thought it was a grad program, though. Getting his MFA from a program like Iowa would be another possible route.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

I am the mom of a very gifted writer, who, like your son was unmotivated about college. I also am an Ivy grad. Son got into two top 25 schools, including his first choice college ( a private and a public that at the time were tied in the top 25), but turned them down in favor of his second choice (a second tier publicv), which incidentally was his safety.

He did this because he liked the city that his second choice was in better, and because his second choice gave him a full ride while his first choice gave him nothing.

I thought what he did made sense, and I still think so. In fact, what I would have preferred that he do would have been to have taken a gap year, but he refused to do so.

He ended up going to college, staying a year, and then dropping out. Given his attitude that college is a waste of time, I am fairly sure that the same thing would have happened if he had chosen the more expensive college. At least this way, however, my husband and I aren't paying off big loans for an education our S didn't take advantage of.

My advice with your situation is to either have your son take a productive gap year (something I think is a great idea because it can give the immature/unmotivated a new perspective) or have him go to the cheaper college. If he goes to U Mass Amherst and gets excited about academics, he always could transfer after soph year. If he goes there and fools around, at least you won't be wasting tons of money.

When it comes to writing careers, what is the ticket to success is how well people write, not what schools they attended. Typically, the advanced small section creative writing classes are for juniors and seniors, whatever the college is. There are some public universities (such as Iowa) that have excellent creative writing programs -- that are tops in the country.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Slightly different, more personal, and possibly obnoxious take here. (Side note: I'm published to the extent of about 10 short stories and have at least a dozen friends who are published novelists, short story writers, and even one who gets regularly paid for her poetry.)

For writing programs, Kenyon or Iowa are where you want to be and, looked at very narrowly, I would do that over U/Mass.

As a parent, however, I would have one major hesitation: I'd want to see the motivation *before* I shelled out the big bucks. From only what I've read here on my screen, I'd choose U/Mass. The available courses of Amherst, Smith, etc. are not to be sneezed at (sez this Smith honk and proselytizer).

It's entirely possible that your S isn't even really ready for college on the emotional maturity front.

I think at U/Mass he might get what he needs *if he works for it* and otherwise you aren't setting him up for a possibly spectacular failure. It also occurs to me that off-beat Hampshire (also part of the Five Colleges) might be an environment that's simpatico with him.

Good luck.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit

wow thanks to all.this is such good advice! You have all made my day, and month for that matter. While as parents we should all relax when it comes to the college quest game, somehow I am the type "A" parent that wants the best that he and we can do within our skill level and resources. This is much better advice than we received from relatives! thanks so much! Especially for the Iowa tip I never knew that U of Iowa or is it Iowa State U(?) is considered an excellent writing school!

By Driver (Driver) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 04:26 pm: Edit

My comment above that "you either have it or you don't" was in no way meant to imply that "a writer needs no instruction or role model." What I meant was that if money is an issue--as it seems to be in this case--the OP shouldn't feel that it will make a huge difference in his son's hypothetical career as a writer if he enrolls at UMass (instead of private schools) and avails himself of the extraordinary talent that is available through the consortium colleges. It's just silly to suggest that the family should go into substantial debt under the theory that Kenyon will somehow turn their son into something that the English departments of Amherst and Smith Colleges cannot. If he has what it takes, they will do great things with him, as they have done with others.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

You have paid big dollars for high school. Was it worth it? Would you do it again?

If a kid isn't motivated enough to make use of the great things that an expensive school has to offer than it is a waste of money. Is he going to seek out the opportunities that Kenyon offers or is he going to expect them to come to him?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 04:43 pm: Edit

I cross-posted with Northstarmom...two minds with similar thoughts.

By Mominva (Mominva) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Songman, if your child needs more maturing, where do you think he will be better nurtured along?
Unless he plans a productive gap year, the question I would have as a parent is, where would my child have the best environment to mature?
I was to a large state school and do not wish the same anonymity for my kids.

But have a long hard serious talk with your son. Tell him you expect he will go to school, do his best and stay in school. Let him know that if he does not compelete his degree, he will owe all his loans and anything you have paid on his behalf.

Then it is time to step back and let your son decide how to approach his future.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:06 pm: Edit

MOMOFFOUR- this is exactly how we feel.yet we feel guilty as we love our son......but some kids "get it" and others do not. Some kids mature later like age 20 or 23 years old.... I know I went to two colleges dropped out then went to NYU and buckled down and earned a BS in Management.

THEDAD- excellent comments.. we are getting closer to a decision. try this one on .is it right that my wife and I step in and force the issue by sending him to UMASS/Amherst?

He feels that he wants to go to Skidmore (the most expensive of the four acceptances, yet we have relatives and others bending our ear that we should sacrifice,sell the house, and eat beans to have him go there or to Kenyon.....yet we feel like MOMOFFOUR said "will he take advantage of the resources of a Kenyon or will he sit in his room chatting on the internet or playing guitar..." He did not take advantage of the four years at the private high school,it is only in his senior year that he submitted his articles to the school newspaper,started a band,played at assembly and that teachers got his number. When they told him to submit his articles and he did not (due to shyness and other hangups) they submitted them anyway without his knowing and he won every competition. 4 different writing contests competing with over 50 other students! GRRRRRRRRRR as I said "talent he has, motivation he does not have".I apologize to all for being a wimp on this stuff.....but I knew the wisdom of these boards would help us get closer to an answer. And so far you are all fantastic to help!

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:21 pm: Edit

MOMINVA- of course he has said that he doesn't want any loans. He wants to graduate debt free as he said "Dad you taught me well, I am frugal" So I said " ok UMASS it is" Then he changed his mind and got scared of the bigness of UMASS...funny did not feel big to me.but then heck I went to NYU in NYC!

Let me say this we are not worried that he will sit on his butt and not do the work. He does that very well and he is able to get high honor roll and honor roll with AP courses to boot. How? Because he knows how to play the game of study ...it is just that he does nothing else as far as utilizing the school resources. He had no EC"s except band. We tried to encourage him, lord knows the school did also. He is shy and reserved and thinks he is JD Salinger. Write the hit then become a hermit.....ughhhhhhhhh! Meanwhile his sister is an over achiever and a social gadfly at 13!....Some of this stuff must be hard wired into kids...We didn't change our parenting style, or at least as far as I know with my daughter over my son.

I think because we have paid the hard money already for high school and to hear my son say last night " Actually I should not have gone to private school, I took up a slot that a kid who would have embraced the school could have had" shows a sign of maturity, but also boils my blood....Am I losing it? Or is this the trials and tribulations of raising a teenager. The saying "relating to teenagers is like nailing jello to a tree" I can relate to!

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Songman,
You son does have an EC: It is creative writing. He also is in the band.

Not everyone is gregarious. Writers in particular tend to be very introverted.

Whatever college he goes to, I suggest that he join the staff of the literary magazine. That's where he'll meet like minded souls, that he'll learn from and enjoy being with.

Since he apparently is an extremely talented writer, even in his private h.s., there may not have been students on his wavelength. If one is far ahead of one's peers, it can be boring to be in ECs with them. My S was an extremely talented writer, tried to work for the h.s. newspaper, and despite his best efforts to be helpful and productive was despised by the other students because he was very serious about writing, while they thought of it as an easy class to blow off.

Probably in college, any college including U Mass., your son will find like minded people who will enjoy writing like he does.

Please stop trying to make him like your daughter. Not everyone is a social butterfly. He sounds like a nice, talented young person, who's interesting and special in his own way.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Songman:

I agree with NSM. There's no way someone can write while socializing, unless one is Truman Capote (and I bet he did not do his writing in public). Your S seems to be an excellent student and a gifted writer. Schools should have more like him.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Nothstarmom- We have never intentionally tried to make him like our daughter. He is older than her by four years. But you may have a point.....yes he is special, at least to us he is. I needed a slap though and I am glad you gave it.

We as parents can get caught up in this whole education game/college name game/push so the kids don't have to live like we were raised game and we can lose sight of the important things. His EC's were minimal when compared to his peers and yes his counselor said "he is immature socially but mature intellectually" so he had trouble relating to his peers. We had trouble as parents raising him at times when he had to conform to some of society's mores ,etc.

Good advice.keep slapping I need to get priorities straight. But will you at least concede that it might be difficult to spend $42,000 a year at a private college and see your son sit around in his room?

By Blossom (Blossom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Songman-- another radical thought for you in addition to the very wise advice you've already gotten--

Maybe it doesn't matter. In the same way that some toddlers are dying to learn to tie their shoes, and other 1st and second graders have to be forced to sit down and learn-- and yet somehow, almost every grownup knows how-- maybe the next year or two are going to be irrelevant in your son's development as an adult. Perhaps he's got his own timetable and destiny, and whether he's at Kenyon, Skidmore, or UMass isn't really going to matter, in the same way that forcing a child who isn't ready developmentally to tie a shoe doesn't do much but get both of you frustrated.

I don't know you or your son, so forgive me the armchair psychology-- your son just sounds like a classic late-bloomer on a couple of fronts. Some kids are ready to "do" high school at 14, and others aren't ready until senior year, and still others are never ready. Same with college-- there are kids who jump in with both feet and take advantage of all the resources, and others who just aren't ready at age 18 and either drop out, or do their own thing and stay in and emerge to begin their adulthood with all the bumps along the way that go with it.

My point is-- apart from the significant financial consequences to your family, do you really think that where he goes is going to make a difference right now? If he needs a lot of structure and support and the kind of one-on-one that a small LAC can provide-- then only you guys can decide if that's worth the financial sacrifice. If however, he's like a lot of kids with his intellect and personality, he'll shy away from the support and the professorial interest and the hand-holding-- in which case,why pay for him to be in a small school if he's going to gravitate towards big, anonymous situations anyway?

My only caution (and I seem to be in the minority here) is that I've seen a lot of gap years that just reinforce a lot of the immaturity and behaviors that led the family to decide on a gap year in the first place. If your son lives at home, he'll work at Starbucks or Borders and hang out with the other "Gap Year" types, or slacker kids, or "I went to Cornell for a year but couldn't hack it so now I'm home writing the great American novel" types. This isn't going to model the kind of "get up and go" behavior you're hoping for! If he goes away on some program, you get some of the above, plus a healthy dose of "Rich Kids with no Direction but plenty of cash" which also is going to distort your son's sense of reality.

I would think long and hard about a non-academic setting for a kid who is so obviously gifted as a writer. In addition to his "craft" he needs to study psychology, art history, economics, and all the other stuff that goes with being an educated person-- intense writing programs can wait for grad school-- but right now you're trying to get him educated and light a fire underneath him at the same time.

If it were my nickel, I'd pick UMass. If he's ready for college, he'll bloom anywhere. If he's not, you've minimized the long term financial consequences. You will know that he's ready for something else when HE shows the initiative and applies to transfer, or starts taking classes outside UMass at the other schools, or starts an avant-garde literary magazine in the Berkshires, or gets himself a summer job reading manuscripts at Random House.

By Achat (Achat) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Songman, it is U of Iowa, not Iowa State. Another school to consider for writer's workshop is JHU.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Songman,
Your S sounds very much like my S, who was operating at an adult level when it came to his writing vcareer, but was way behind socially with peers.

If there is any way that you can get your S to take a gap year, that might help. If not, do send him to the cheaper school.

At age 20, my son, who dropped out of college, is now catching up with his peers socially. His lifestyle is probably similar to that of many h.s. students who are goofing off academically while having a great time with their friends.

I am hoping that when he finally catches up socially, he'll get back on track with his writing career and also will decide to return to college. I have some writer friends who did similar things when they were young, and who ended up graduating from college and becoming professional writers. My fingers are crossed....

As for spending $42k for a private college and having S sit in his room, if he were attending class and getting decent grades and continuing his writing, I'd have no problem with it.

He would be getting out of college what he needed. That's the way some students who went to college with me acted who became well regarded professional writers. Except for Truman Capote, the best writers simply are not social people. They have rich internal worlds, and flourish well in those worlds. Many are very misanthropic.

Social people who claim to be writers usually are posers, not writers.

If you don't believe me, check the bios of writers. Some of our most well regarded writers were social isolates: Emily Dickenson is just the first of many who comes to mind.

By Mominva (Mominva) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Songman,
Those teachers in that private school were encouraging and supportive of your sons gifts and talents. Do you consider it money well spent, or thrown away?
I suspect he will catch the eye of more encouraging, supportive and accepting types at Kenyon than UMass; and socially would not so easily be able to hide in the woodwork.
Someone in another thread said earlier, 'The hardest part of parenting is to love the kids you are given, and not the kids you dreamed they'd be.' That is a lesson I am learning far too late.

By Songman (Songman) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Mominva- very wise comments

Thanks Northstarmom- thanks to all. I know it seems silly but this is the first ray of hope I have had in this process for the last three weeks. Us Type "A's" are always full of angst that we put upon ourselves.

"The hardest part of parenting is to love the kids you are given, and not the kids you dreamed they'd be.' That is a lesson I will take under advisement!

and also this comment "I suspect he will catch the eye of more encouraging, supportive and accepting types at Kenyon than UMass; and socially would not so easily be able to hide in the woodwork."


But do we spend ( I mean borrow)another $80,000 on the gamble that he will make use of the school and that Kenyon will be more supportive than UMASS? I know you can't answer that, but this is the dilemma!

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Songman:

I have never visited UMass, but I'd wager your S will find plenty of opportunities to socialize, though not in the same way that your D would. What he needs is to find his niche among like-minded peers. At a highly diverse university like UMass, he is bound to find some kindred spirits. He does not have to bond with every student are become infected with the school spirit. he only needs to find a few friends to thrive. I would expect such a large campus to have a newspaper, some literary journals, a poetry club, etc... where your S would be right at home. As part of the consortium, I also expect that he would have access to some excellent literature and creative writing classes. Have you checked the course offerings in those fields?

So, no, I don't think it's worth another $80,000 which you do not have to send him to a place that is very far from home and where he may or may not excel or be happy. As for the money you spent on his private school, I think it is money well spent if it provided him with a solid foundation for college.

By Dstark (Dstark) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 06:47 pm: Edit

I looked up the top 14 top selling fictions books at Amazon. Here are the authors and where they went to college. (Those that I could figure out in a couple of minutes.)
Dan Brown---Amherst
John Grishman ---Mississippi State
Robert B. Parker---- Colby
Laurie R. King----UC Santa Cruz
John Dunning----GED from South Carolina
Robert Jordan----The Citadel
James Patterson----Manhattan College
Nevada Barr----Cal Poly San Luis Obispo

By Blossom (Blossom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 06:47 pm: Edit

As the author of the "loving the kid you have not the one you wish you had" line, let me add that my personal goal is to become the equivalent of an Eagle Scout in parenting. Not through bravery, not through skill, not through my amazing accomplishments or fantastic results.... but just because it looks like I'll be the only person in my kid's life who's still there at the end (when they hand out awards and medals!) long after everyone else has gone home and given up in frustration!!!

On a serious note, Songman, you've referenced some guilt in your posts-- which I'd urge you to give up for more productive sentiments. Sometimes, being a good parent means teaching your kid not to touch the hot stove.... If in fact, you all decide not to incur huge amounts of debt for Skidmore which could substantially alter your son's career plans, hamper his ability to write after he graduates in favor of a job that pays more, etc.... you are doing the parental equivalent of avoiding a hot stove. Kids hear numbers like 15K or 30K in loans, and to them it's just an abstraction. Once the little coupon book comes and they realize how much income they'll need to generate to actually have money in their checking account to pay that loan month after month after year.... well, it's a prudent parent who can tell which kid can handle that kind of pressure, and which kid can't.

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 06:58 pm: Edit

True, Dstark, I was talking about literary writing, not best sellers.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 07:05 pm: Edit

It is really a family decision because of the long term impact that the debt will have on the family, not just the parents but the other kids as well. I don't think your son is unusual in the time it is taking for him to blossom academically, and it may well take even more time. I often say that my son is just now mature enough to go to college and he is graduating this year--barely. He too discovered literary talents and ECs his senior year; and everyone in my old neighborhood laughs about the reaction that his middle school English teacher (who lives in that neighborhood)had when she found out he was majoring in English at a selective school. He had flunked her English class! And he has barely squeeked through college. I am so grateful that he is graduating this year, having his best academic term yet. It is just taking him time to mature, I am sure.

H and I made the decision many years ago that we would beggar ourselves to give our kids the best possible education. And we did. We had the bill collectors after us, lived in marginal neighborhoods, and didn't have two dimes to rub together literally. Though H was well respected in his field, academically and professionally, the work he was doing which he loved did not pay much. And what I was making free lance from tutoring and writing was just not enough for our brood even though we were frugal in a lot of things Also I admit we were extravagant in many areas as well--I would blow lots of money for cultural extravaganzas and opportunities. I paid small fortunes in private lessons and programs for the kids. Certainly more than someone in our income bracket should have. Some expenses I regret as fool hardy, some I still stubbornly maintain were worth every cent they cost even if the electric bill did not get paid and the city was after us for taxes. Yeah, we were deadbeats at times while our kids enjoyed opportunities that mainly much more upscale families had. We did pay the price--sometimes with money we did not have.

But we felt that was what we wanted to do. Things did work out financially, eventually, but they may not have. And we gave each of our kids full choice in their colleges. I suspect that with my son, he may not have lasted at a school had we ramrodded him with the decision. He barely got through highschool which he despised because we forced him to go to this particular school. He had loved his first two years, but we moved and he hated the place we picked for him for his last two years, though I feel it was instrumental in getting him into the more selective colleges. It was good for him, but he fought it every step of the way. I did not feel like continuing this battle through college as it was a no win situation. He nixed schools that we thought were the best fit for him. And to this day, I maintain that belief, and he is begrudgingly admitting that we were right. But he needed to make his own choice.

So with a kid like S1, sending him to UMass would have probably been a waste of time and money. He wanted to make his choice for college and in order for him to succeed, he needed it to be his choice. If your son is anything like that, and only you can tell, it may well be worth while to work out the finances to send him to his first choice school. You need to have a heart to heart with him. Obviously, if it is truly not doable financially, it is totally a moot point, but usually in these situations, the problem is that it is doable but at a price and the question is whether the family should take on this burden. Since the financial responsibility for college lays squarely on the heads of the parents of the students, this is something that you must come to terms with. Not an 18 year old boy who is half baked, at best.

Either alternative UMass or Kenyon has its benefits. UMass with its consortium priviliges has all kinds of benefits and opportunities for your son IF he will rise to the occaision and take advantage of them. If he lies in bed sullenly there and begrudgingly goes through the paces, he will not get any of the wonderful things that are available to him. And unfortunately, kids do that. Even good kids. Yeah, they're spoiled, but we spoiled them. And some of it is just in their nature. Whatever the reason, some kids are that way. Kenyon is out in the middle of nowhere, true, and that has been a turnoff to many kids. It is a great school, many from the private school where my kids have gone, go there, and most of them love the experience. A good friend's daughter is going there, and another friend's daughter just graduated from there. Both families think the school is terrific and worth every penny. The one who is graduated is now in law school and the mom told me that Kenyon went beyond all expectations in helping this young lady get a paid internship (rare for a college student) in law and was instrumental in getting her into a good law school. A great contrast to my other friend's daughter who graduated from a state school and was going through the whole process solo. No such help, even a fraction of it was available from State U. That is one example of what a difference a good LAC can make over a large state system. And I have seen this time and again. The young lady from the state school will also end up in law school but without that kind of support from her college.

There are all kinds of summer workshops and programs for budding writers, but if you want to write for money, my suggestion is to look for venues and start writing. Along with a real job. For students, that is to do over the summer. S worked on an on line magazine that paid him a pittance but gave him all kinds of bennies such as a press pass to lots of exclusive, expensive events. But he worked for the real greenbacks as well over the summer. Hard labor for big bucks that have paid for a lot of his interests and for college as well. He made well over $10K last summer, spent half of it. It has been rare that I have scrimped to send any of the kids to high ticket summer programs even the ones that are considered terrific and that I would advocate to others interested in that area.

So, you need to sit and talk with your son and decide which is the best path for him to take since you ultimately will pay for in one way or the other--probably in many ways. His feelings will, of course, figure prominently in the decision, but really the parents hold the financial reins which are making this the dilemma.

As for the money spent on high school, it is a done deal. As Marite says, it is money well spent for a solid foundation. A good prep school usually provides outstanding preparation for college, the best money can buy, in my opinion. One of the top reasons to send a kids to such a school. Whether it was worth it or not is really a moot point now. You have enough current and future issues to debate.

Good luck to you and your son. And congratulations to him in earning these great choices.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Advice: UMASS

Reason: besides the money, you wrote: "talent he has,motivation he does not!"

Don't send an unmotivated kid to a college that puts a financial strain on your family. What will happen is that you will get very angry if he doesn't do well, and he probably is going to continue being the same person he always has been. He isn't really "unmotivated" - he is just not EXTERNALLY motivated, meaning that he doesn't feel like jumping through hoops to satisfy others. He must be motivated to write, or there wouldn't be all that creative writing available for others to submit.

Highly creative people do tend to follow their own inclinations. Your son can be very successful in life, but it is crazy for you to hock everything when you have a personally acceptable alternative.

Like Northstarmom, I am the proud parent of a college dropout. I have to say that the fact that my son chose an expensive LAC put him in a worse quandary - he was o.k. taking one year "off", but for more than that he will lose his financial aid, so even though he was in o.k. standing, he is not going to be able to go back and he knows it. He was also very reluctant to share his concerns with me -- I think it would have been easier for him to say, "mom, I'm not sure that I should be in college at all right now" if he wasn't feeling a little bit guilty about all the money I'd spent. Fortunately, my son quit school to take a job that he absolutely loves & which has motivated him like nothing else in his entire life - it is a joy to see him so engaged and happy. But he could have had the same job if he had attended school locally. Fortunately, his employer will help him pay off his student loans.

By Asdad (Asdad) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 09:36 pm: Edit

I believe John Grisham went to U of Miss.

By Dstark (Dstark) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 09:47 pm: Edit

He got his law degree at U of Miss. I think you miss the point. Whatever.

By Julia_525 (Julia_525) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:55 pm: Edit

Songman, How do you feel about the $80,000 you paid for private HS? Do you regret it or do you think it was worth it to give your son what you thought was the best possible education? Then apply your answer to your college question.

By Momoffour (Momoffour) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Are you in Mass.?
1. Another cost factor is transporting him to and from Kenyon.
2. If his best friends are going to Tufts, it will be a lot easier for him to visit from UMass.
3. There will be more college kids for his band to find an audience in Amherst.
4. He was accepted into the honors program where he will get more individual attention than the general population.
5. If your friends want to hear a name school just throw in the word "honors" when you mention UMass.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Garland re your remarks regarding "literature--not best sellers sniff sniff".

Might want to peruse the Pulitzer Prize winners over the last decade. Yes, going to a 'feeder' school helps a writer get into a good ny literary agency but the best CREATIVE talent rises to the top regardless of undergrad.

Russell Banks Colgate/NYU
Barbara Kingsolver DePauw UArizona
Robert Stone NYU drop out
Don Delillo Fordham
Grace Paley Hunter NYU
David Maet Goddard College in Vermont
August Wilson high school drop out US Army
Alice McDermott State Uni of NY at Oswego
Joyce Carol Oates Syracuse

...literary enough for you?

By Dstark (Dstark) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

In other words Songman, save your money.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

Songman...best writer competing against 50 other students? Umm. That's a pretty small pool, I don't care how talented the school. I've read several thousand manuscripts in my life as a member and leader of writing workshops with particpants from age 16 to 70 and I can't tell you how many *really good* manuscripts I've seen never get published.

Fancying one's self as JD Salinger, affectations and all, strikes me as a bit of romantic self-indulgent adolescent twaddle. I can't think of a politer way to put it. It's another facet of the maturity issue.

Good writers have to have something to write about and it's very rare that they can do it from mere observation in isolation without actually participating in the churning world.

The more I read the preceding posts, the more I like the U/Mass option: the larger school gives a larger pool for your S to find his fellow travelers in. That's the philosophical side. On the practical side, for *me* and *my* money your S would be a poor business risk for the $80K...and I speak as one whose attitude is generally "Go for it!"

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:36 pm: Edit

I'm a big fan of LACs and like both Skidmore and Kenyon. But the honors perks at U Mass make that a viable option. And if he is as good a writer as you believe, a professor or two there will be motivated to work with him. Given all the info you've provided, I'd lean toward U Mass.

You should work with him to see the opportunities there, not just the lower pricetag.

By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

Songman, You sound like another father who wrote to a professor about his unmotivated but talented son...

...My S is 22 years old...he feels profoundly unhappy with his present lack of postiion, and his idea that he has gone off the tracks with his career and is now out of touch gets more and more entrenched each day. In addition, he is oppressed by the thought that he is a burden on us, people of modest means....

I have taken the liberty of turning to you with the humble request to...write him, if possible, a few words of encouragement, so that he might recover his joy in living and working.

If, in additon, you could secure him an Assistant's position for now or next autumn, my gratitude would know no bounds...

I am also taking the liberty of mentioning that my son does not know anything about my unusual step.

I remain, highly esteemed Herr Professor,
your devoted,

Hermann Einstein (father of Albert Einstein)

from E=mc2, A Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation/The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol I, The Early Years.

Sometimes, Songman, it takes a few years for talent to develop--but a devoted father is wonderful blessing.

By Garland (Garland) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 08:48 am: Edit

Look, I'm not arguing that all writers went to topnotch creative writing programs. All actors don't go to Yale, NYU, etc. either. All musicians don't attend Juilliard or Eastman. Going to a top school in your profession is a boost; if for no other reason, it surrounds you with others who have similar talents and interests. Is that necessary? of course not. Does it help? I think so. Is it the right thing for this young man? I can't know that. (Am I talking like Donald Rumsfeld? oops, yeah.)

[I put a smily face, not a "sniff sniff" after the word "literary". But I don't think anyone could argue that there's a difference between a Grisham or a Kingsolver in terms of the type of writing they do. That Kingsolver has made the bestseller list in the past (as has Laura Hllenbrand--Seabiscuit author and Kenyon grad) is a vote of confidence for the reading public.]

By Songman (Songman) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 10:58 am: Edit

Wow! the night shift came through with some good comments also.

Julia 525 said"Songman, How do you feel about the $80,000 you paid for private HS? Do you regret it or do you think it was worth it to give your son what you thought was the best possible education? Then apply your answer to your college question."

There are times we felt that every penny was worth it. He was surrounded by kids that held academics in high esteem. Recently in a class of 16 at his school the teacher asked each student to pick a fellow student in the class that they respect for their intelligence,talent,manners etc..My son received the majority of the votes. He turned sheet white he said: he had no idea that the kids he thought "didn't like him" would vote for him. Akin to nailing jello to a tree?

To the other posters that stated that I was worried he would sit in his room at a LAC like Kenyon and do nothing. I want to make clear that I wouldn't be worried that he would not do the work required in his courses. He has always done the required work and has been on honor roll every year. So you say "so what is your problem?" Well,only parents with children that have the intelligence to stretch beyond their comfort zone, but choose to take the easy road ,can understand this type of frustration. It is a "close, but yet so far" type of feeling. We never expected him to be like the tour guide kids you see on campus(excited over achievers)but rather hoped that he would make use of the resources at school.

To those that suggested that "we have a sit down talk with him",good advice except we have done this every year. We are exhausted from talks. He is who he is and we are proud of him, yet question if we want to borrow the extra $80,000-$100,000 to send him to Kenyon or Skidmore. I have to continually remember this saying that Blossom authored? "love the kid you have, not the one you wish you had" You may say " hey pal you should have known that!" Well when you grow up on the tough side of the street and pulled yourself out of the life and made a better life for your kids like I did, I have to step back and remind myself of that saying! Heck, I am not perfect, but he is a heck of lot more intelligent than I am. I just need to remember that the mission was accomplished and to love the kid I have...

Thanks to all. Your posts are extremely helpful. This morning my wife commented on how helpful people on this chat board are and that you have provided some good non-biased advice. Thanks Again.

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:15 am: Edit

Songman:

There are a lot of gifted underachievers out there; there is whole body of literature on the subject (check out hoagiesgifted.org). In elementary and high school, they learn to coast along and often acquire very bad habits: not studying, not putting forth the effort. Then they are surprised not to get into reach colleges.
Your son is lucky to have a real passion for writing. I'd wager he puts a huge amount of time and effort into it, and thus has the discipline to work hard when he needs/wants to. I suspect he will blossom in college.
Will he blossom more easily at Skidmore or Kenyon than at UMass? Hard to tell. I strongly urge you to check out the literature and creative writing options at UMass and the Five College Consortium. they are probably available online (look under academics and individual departments).

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:22 am: Edit

My former roommate and very close friend from college did not make it through our college. She transferred to Hampshire College, and their more loosely formatted curriculum was what she needed. She graduated from there and is now a very successful writer and a professor at a university with an excellent writing program. We are still in contact and she knows quite a bit about the consortium. It is certainly possible for a UMass student to take some of the workshops at Hampshire, and a distinct possibility to transfer there if the atmosphere there is more in line with the creative juices. That is an alternative that may also be explored for your son. Now my friend also took courses at UMass and she said many of the consortium kids those days did since UMass had the greatest selection of courses, many more pragmatic courses that just were not offered at the other schools particularly in the business and education areas. UMass was the only school she used in the consortium other than her main college,Hampshire, a situation she said that was not uncoommon with a lot of those students.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:22 am: Edit

My former roommate and very close friend from college did not make it through our college. She transferred to Hampshire College, and their more loosely formatted curriculum was what she needed. She graduated from there and is now a very successful writer and a professor at a university with an excellent writing program. We are still in contact and she knows quite a bit about the consortium. It is certainly possible for a UMass student to take some of the workshops at Hampshire, and a distinct possibility to transfer there if the atmosphere there is more in line with the creative juices. That is an alternative that may also be explored for your son. Now my friend also took courses at UMass and she said many of the consortium kids those days did since UMass had the greatest selection of courses, many more pragmatic courses that just were not offered at the other schools particularly in the business and education areas. UMass was the only school she used in the consortium other than her main college,Hampshire, a situation she said that was not uncoommon with a lot of those students.

By Songman (Songman) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit

JAMIMOM- I heard that the consortium works for non- UMASS students better than for UMASS. I was told that if a course is available already at UMass/Amherst or similar then the UMASS student must take it at UMASS. Where the Amherst, Hampshire, Smith etc..could not possibly cover the range of courses that UMass offers. So they luck out? I am trying to confirm with UMASS to see if this is true...

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:45 am: Edit

Hampshire has some truly unusual courses. But in my experience, any of the cross registration programs have their drawbacks. I went to a school that offered these benefits, did it for one class and it was a pain in the neck among other places. So you do have to check that out. But Hampshire has some very individual like programs that may appeal to your son's artistic bent. From your description of you S, I was immediately reminded of my old roommate. And the school where she flunked out had an excellent writing program--she just could not get with the more traditional college schedule and Hampshire was able to accomodate her and get those creative juices flowing. She went on to Iowa for her graduate studies and has her phd from there and is considered by anyone in the writing field as successful. Few people know that she flunked out of her first college ( just her old roommate--me!). I remember going over her classes at Hampshire, and they were wierd to me then. cannot imagine a traditional school being able to match some of those things. The problem would be fitting a nontraditional course into an ultra traditional college's schedule. But take a look see at Hampshire's offerings and see what is possible. That may also whet your S's interests.

By Songman (Songman) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Thanks JAMIMOM!

By Dstark (Dstark) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Hampshire may eventually be the ticket.
http://www.hampshire.edu/cms/index.php?id=3067
http://www.hampshire.edu/cms/index.php?id=2949
I wonder how well U Mass and Hampshire work together? If you can take advantage of Hampshire from U Mass, it sounds like a great deal financially.

By Songman (Songman) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

MOM101- this thread is for you....

By Songman (Songman) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:33 pm: Edit

To the top of the list for the night shift- tee hee

By Mauimom (Mauimom) on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Songman - from a rather different angle: although most CC parents ARE ones who've "sacrificed for our kids" and "value education highly," we need not to sell ourselves short, and in so doing, burden our kids.

You can find article after article in the "family financial" magazines (Money et al.) that will counsel parents NOT to go into huge debt to fund their child's/children's college education. And this is for kids who ARE motivated and will make the most of that expensive perk.

How is YOUR retirement fund? We parents are all going to live longer than our parents, and the govt. is going to be paying less and less to support us. A responsible "gift" to our children is to NOT get ourselves into such financial hot water that we either resent them (and what they "didn't make" out of that wonderful opportunity we provided them) or -- "shudder" -- have to depend on them for support.

Conclusion: UMass -- there are many possibilities for him there, and he can "work his way up/out," maybe even get the "next" school to contribute merit aid.

Good luck.

By Songman (Songman) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

Thanks everyone These boards were very helpful especially in bringing up certain points we did not consider as parents/student. You were all wonderful to take the time!

-My son will be going to UMASS/Amherst. It was a tough decision. We are all fortunate (in MASS. that is) to be close to such an outstanding school as UMASS/Amherst. There were so many factors that went into the decision, but in the end he does not want to get out of school in debt,and his parents could not justify or really see a vast difference between the three private schools he got into and UMASS/Amherst. Mainly though it is up to a student to get the most out of school and to contribute to the community and participate in activities. Having sent him to a private high school for 4 years,in a way, that was not a realistic approach in helping a young person to navigate and learn the ways of our more complex society. In our opinion and our son's, UMASS/Amherst can probabaly do a better job of conveying reality yet demand academic excellence from the students at the same time? We will all see.....

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Congrats on the immediate closure at any rate.

If your son meets an opinionated ballet dancer from Smith majoring in Political Science or Classics, tell him to say "Hi!" to my D.

By Pattykk (Pattykk) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 08:42 am: Edit

Songman, good choice. I have met the most interesting graduates of U Mass. Two girls graduated and are running a progressive kindergarten in Amherst, and the other is preparing to go to Georgetown for graduate work. They all speak very highly of U Mass. Western Mass is lovely, and having the consortim available is a huge plus.

By Songman (Songman) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Thanks Pattykk- hard to tell if my son and we made a good decision. The toughest part was sending the "decline" letter to Kenyon College. Somehow my son feels he may not get an opportunity again to approach Kenyon for transfer if he "gets the hang of the college scene" as he put it.

By Tropicanabanana (Tropicanabanana) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

good decision!

I know some people in UMASS honors and they think it's really good. $160,000 for Skidmore may have made him have regrets.

By Plughoo (Plughoo) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Songman, I hope your son throws himself into the 5 college scene with all his heart. Who knows, a prof at one of the private LAC's may see that he "has it", and be willing to invest the time with him even though his degree would be from UMass. That kind of attention would be more important to his future as a writer than the institution on the degree. He should be sure to include Mt Holyoke as he explores what's available.

By Songman (Songman) on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

As a follow up on this board I thought I would pass this story along. Those of you that have followed our story know that it was tough for our son to make a decision regarding 3 LAC's and UMASS/Amherst. I knew the day would come when I have to face the relatives.......

As much as we all do not like to admit it. The college game is just that. a game at times....the prestigious game is one, I will admit, we all got wrapped up in. It was put to a test this past weekend when we went to a wedding and all the relatives (all top LAC's and some HYP grads) were shocked and surprised that my son picked UMASS/Amherst. After they had a few drinks and we saw them again on the dance floor or at our table, it was interesting to hear the comments directed to my son:
"I would never get into Williams again today!"
"No one will ask what school your son went to 5 years from now"
" my alma Mater is too darn expensive now, and not worth it"
"you made a good decision,save your money for a house or grad school"
" In life it is your level of motivation and not always your academic background, that helps"

This whole process opened my eyes to the game that some people have played for years. That is the "college name game" For my son and his parents most LAC's are just too expensive. More importantly it is better to find the school that is the best fit for your child then the prestige of the school. We felt better about our decision when we left the wedding and saw a few cars with the decals of top LAC's on them. That's a lot of money for a decal no?





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