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Parents, I need your advice. I’ve learned a lot reading here, but this is my first post, so be kind. After reading some of the comments the students make on “where to go to school” issues, I would appreciate some real advice, not just “go to MIT.”

My parents and I have discussed this endlessly. They are being very helpful and supportive, without trying to be too intrusive.

Right now I’m planning to major in EE/CS or Comp. Eng., with a possible minor in physics/biology/math. I’ve been accepted to several schools, most with varying amounts of merit money, but have narrowed it down to 4.

We don’t qualify for financial aid, but like many other families, can’t afford $160,000 without a lot of sacrifices, such as a job change and lots of loans. My parents say they’re willing to do this, but I’m not sure it’s worth it. (Yes, I feel like Evil Robot.) I have a sister who’s a sophomore. I applied for a lot of outside scholarships, but didn’t fare too well.

I know I’m incredibly lucky to have gotten into these schools with the merit aid, which makes the decision even harder. I almost feel guilty having these wonderful choices, when so many of my friends and others were waitlisted or worse at these schools.

- MIT – has always been a dream, thrilled I got in. Will cost $44,000/year. This will take $30,000/year in loans. I also want to attend MIT grad school, and am worried that it will be much harder to get into if I go elsewhere for undergrad. They really seem to like their own undergrads. I spent a week on campus last year with a friend, hung around his research lab, went to some classes, met a lot of students & professors, etc. Still love it

- Carnegie Mellon SCS, was offered only $5,000/year merit. For a lot of reasons I have pretty much decided this isn’t the school for me, particularly since I am now looking at EE in addition to CS.

- Rice – With merit aid Rice will cost about $17,000, most of which we can do without loans. Everyone I’ve talked to who goes or went to Rice has loved it. Their eng. is not as strong, but it’s a great school. I really like it when I visited recently.

- WashU – With merit aid will cost about $20,000/year, again, with small loan. Have visited twice, including a week-end event. I really like WashU and they seem to really want me to come.

Based on the scholarships and programs I got, I know I’ll get more individual attention at Rice and WashU, will have great research opportunities, etc. Plus the money is hard to turn down.

At MIT, we'll end up taking out about $100,000 in loans. At Rice and WashU, it will be less than $15,000. But I don't want to make this decision solely on money. Considering job possibilities and grad school options, any insights or advice? I want to make sure I’m considering every aspect when I make my decision, and I’m sure there’s something I’ve forgotten. I’m about ready to play “rock, paper, scissors.”

Sorry this is so long. Thanks for reading and for any thoughts. Ben

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Oh my! Talk about deja vu!
Check out this post:
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?5/62338
It's titled: Rice vs CMU vs Case vs Wash U: HELP!
(in case the link does not work)

When I first saw your post, I wondered how my post got bumped, when I didn't bump it! Then I noticed MIT (nearly the only difference!)

I haven't received any responses, but I'd sure like to compare notes with you! Feel free to email (see my profile).

By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Is there grad school in your future? Talk about future salary, do you have a specific career path in mind?

For instance, my BIL has a Phd in Optical Engineering and he is $$$thriving, while my B with the Berkeley math degree closed his programming business.

Your ability to pay off the loans is the linch pin. If you feel like you can do it, then go for your dream at MIT. If you feel like the burden will fall to your parents because you want to be a research assistant then pack up for WashU. (I hate Houston).

By Nachrnurchr (Nachrnurchr) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

My S is a junior at MIT, and his experience has been very positive in every way except for the food quality and dorm upkeep. This school lavishes attention and resources on their undergrads in ways that make the tuition seem like a bargain. Where else would you get full professors, sometimes top in their field, running the discussion/recitation sections of their larger courses?

MIT's international reputation for excellence is worth a lot in opening grad. school and employment opportunities, and just the salary differential afforded their graduates will pay off your loans in a few years in EE/CS. I can't think of any reason not to go there.

By Anxiousmom (Anxiousmom) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Sorry to disagree - but I guess I'm becoming a strong advocate of Rice! At Rice you will get exactly "full professors, sometimes top in their field, running the discussion/recitation sections of their larger courses". (except there aren't a lot of larger courses at Rice!) Go to MIT for grad school! Save your money. Even kids who "hate" Houston love Rice. It's up to you to decide if you like Rice or WUSTL better. Rice has the Residential College system, and WUSTL is a bit more preppy, drinky, fratty. It's up to you to decide which you like better. $100,000 in loans is no small matter to pay off! Check out the schedule of loan repayments and think about trying to pay it off while paying for a car and childcare for two small children and a mortgage. (I have friends trying to pay off their own school loans even as they try to figure out how they are going to pay for their kid's college educations)

By Byou86 (Byou86) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Part of my concern is whether I can get into grad school at MIT from the other two colleges. It would be much more of a sure thing from MIT. That is one of the major deciding factors at the moment.

Also I'm not sure what my career path will be, except that computers will be involved. I'm self taught and know several languages, and I really enjoy that. But I have no idea what specifically I will be doing. Government work, academia, industry, computer design work, robotics, AI - there's just so much out there! And I feel like maybe MIT would be the best place to explore the field and see what I like, just because they are doing research in so many areas.

I don't care if I ever get rich, I just want to make enough to live comfortably. I don't need a lot of stuff (except computer stuff!). And I've read here about people who have to take well paying jobs they don't like just to pay back student loans. I'd be willing to do that for a few years, but not the rest of my life.

Kjofkw, maybe I'll end up at school with your son.

Thanks for responding everyone. Any other thoughts?

By Cheers (Cheers) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:31 pm: Edit

1. I wouldn't turn MIT down and expect to be greeted warmly for graduate school.

2. As long as YOU are willing to accept the financial responsibility of indulging yourself, then go where you want to go! Send in that MIT deposit!

By Medprof (Medprof) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Grad school admission decisions are made by individual departments. I doubt they will hold it against you if you turn MIT down for grad school. However, for EE/CS, there's really no place like MIT. My D has two friends there, and they work all night all the time. The vigor of their courses would serve you well in future. I don't think WUSL and Rice will challenge you nearly as much. You could try to talk to the EE/CS departments at WUSL and Rice about their grad school placements.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 10:08 pm: Edit

You also need to think about the people you will be spending the next four years with. My s. never applied to MIT because:
-He didn't like the campus.
-He wanted to have a variety of other students around besides nerds (even though he is one).
-He was concerned that the MIT grad. school dominates over the undergrad. (A neighbor who is a MIT alum. with a son currently attending said that fear is unfounded.
-He heard from a friend who heard from a family member who knows a student there (how's that for reliable source ) that the competition at MIT is so fierce that you cannot leave a project unattended for fear it might be changed by others. I don't really know if that is true, but it made an impression on him.

In short, he didn't think he would like the environment there, despite all the wonderful opportunities.

I originally thought Wash U. and Rice were comparable, until I looked at the faculty and courses on line. The faculty / student ratio at Rice was extremely good, but CS is a VERY small department. (I don't know much about EE) Small can be great...but it can also be limiting. I told my s. to make sure he studied exactly what those few faculty were researching at Rice, to see if any of their work interested him. There won't be much to choose from. Wash U. has a lot more choices. CMU SCS is a mecca! (for a student focused on CS)-- but for him it is almost too large.

Also check out your other possible majors. Like you, my son also loves math & physics (sorry...no biology), so we wanted to make sure these were good departments should he change his major. I don't yet know about Rice or Wash U. but I've heard Physics is strong at CMU.

It is a hard decision because the choices are all good ones, but very different. Personally I agree w/Anxiousmom that $100,000 in loans is WAAAY to much to take on. We have lived our lives frugally, and saved as much as possible. It is a tremendous gift not to be tied down to a lot of debt, (or big house or car or whatever). (It is a royal pain for college EFC calculations however)

My "guess" is that MIT would not hold it against you for not attending this year! (Do they even hold your files that long?) Students choose the most affordable alternative all the time!

ON THE OTHER HAND...
By unofficial count on other threads besides this one, it seems most posters think one should save the best until last by going to the less expensive undergrad school, and applying to the best grad school. Once I read, however, that postponing what you really want can hurt you in the long run. You often never reach it again. I guess that depends on how hard you work for it.

By Dreadpirate (Dreadpirate) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 11:01 pm: Edit

I don't know what engineering grad schools think of Rice grads, but med schools, technology companies and NASA love them. For a school with only 2700 undergrads, Rice's reputation is remarkable. MIT is, of course, is superb for CS, especially at the grad level. But very few of the Yankees were developed by the Columbus Clippers.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 10:13 am: Edit

Here's my totally wacky, presumptuous idea. E-mail Mark Wrighton, chancellor of Wash U and former provost at MIT and ask him for advice. Here's his webpage.http://www.wustl.edu/wrighton/msw-resume.html He might have a good perspective on what your chances are of grad school at MIT if you attend Wash u. He seems like a very approachable guy-very busy, but you never know he might respond to you.

By Byou86 (Byou86) on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit

Lizschup - thanks for the great idea. I will email him and ask. Who knows, maybe he'll respond. I have serched the websites and called 3 schools, and none of them have been able to give me the information I need. At this point I'll do just about anything. Thanks!

Someone posted a link here in the last couple of weeks that I thought I bookmarked but it's missing. It was to an article written by MIT graduates and talked about MIT undergrads getting into mit grad school. I didn't have time to read the whole article and can't find it. Anyone remember?

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Byou86:
Can you do us a favor and post if you hear back? We're not interested in MIT, but I'd be very interested in what he has to say! I don't want to let you do all the legwork -- but nor do I want to hit him w/ virtually the same questions ;)
Thanks!

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Kjofkw -- that link was to the wrong discussion. However, to you and Byou:

The CS program at Wash U is exceptional and highly regarded, with good job placement and grad possibilities, perhaps more so than Rice.

Then there is CMU which has a reputation for offering extremely focussed and challenging courses, a smaller and less intense version of MIT.

And then there is MIT, the paragon.

Ultimately, it's up to who you are and what you want -- and where you see yourself after graduation. If you can handle the size and the stress, MIT. You also need to see if any of your MIT undergraduate courses at the upper levels can also be applied toward a graduate degree, 2 for 1 as it were. Isn't there also a five-year BS/Masters program available at MIT?

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Collegeparent,
Sorry, I discovered that error after it posted. I was afraid that would happen, that's why I added the title of the former post. I cut and paste the address, so I don't know what happened. Unfortunately my S. is the computer guru...not me ;)

Know anything about CS at Case?
That's our most affordable alternative at this point (after Miami of Ohio, which everyone has told us not to consider for CS)

By Cheers (Cheers) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Kjofkw--Don't know about CS rankings of Case but know two recent BA graduates who got great educations and job placement, (Peace Corps for one and $50k/yr job/MBA @ UM for other). If S is not 'social', consider frats at Case.

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Kjofkw - About Case, I have an enormous problem with that school and it doesn't have to do with the education or its reputation, but with the neighborhood and serious questions about how safe an environment the campus is. Even being located in the "museum district," it is still surrounded by a distressed and depressed neighborhood. If you can get past that (and I regretably couldn't), then consider it; if not, then look at alternatives.

Given your posts and your concerns, eventhough your son has a problem with the size of CMU, he should give that serious thought. Also, WUSTL.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 09:15 pm: Edit

I guess the neighborhood did not bother me as much. Wash U. also has depressed areas nearby. Houston has problems everywhere. All cities (and suburbs) have drugs. I would probably be more worried w/ a daughter however. (Yes I know...double standard).

I think he is narowing the field. He came back from Owl Weekend totally sold on Rice. It is still far more $$ to us than Case, but this was the first time I've seen him "happy" (almost relaxed). I thought to myself...yeah, Rice did it's PR number on him. However, he says he stayed away from most of the social stuff and spent his time visiting classes and professors. (I was impressed!). Rice fit well with his hope for a small liberal arts type school (even tho' it technically is not, it still has that feel), with a good CS department.

He has one more trip to CMU (which is actually less expensive for us than Rice!). We insisted he make sure he knows what he is "giving up" before he makes a final decision. He agrees.

He was so impressed w/ Rice, I think Case is falling behind. Unfortunately I think Wash U. is also -- mostly by inaction, not by logical choice. Since it is currently our most expensive alternative (next to Brown), I can accept that based on finances alone. I'm still unsure about giving up Case, however, as it would be the easiest for him financially.

Down to two! (I think).
How about you Byou86?

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Kjofkw -- a quick word about Rice. It is an exceptional university and is absolutely "sized right" -- Like Cal Tech, Dartmouth, Bucknell, Colgate, Tufts, Vanderbilt and Wake Forest, Rice is a strong academic university aimed at an undergraduate experience, but with the feel of a large college in the pulse of the campus and the outright friendliness of the student body. They all have active social scenes, but the campus is neither overpowering nor too intimate. The other schools you're considering are all larger and if your son wants what Rice offers, then by all means he should go there. To a certain degree CMU offers the same sort of feel, but is a little larger and more international. But he'll know soon enough which one he'll choose. Please let us know what he decided.

By Byou86 (Byou86) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:06 am: Edit

I've been gone on a school trip to a competition. I think my parents were hoping I'd have an epiphany while I was gone. No such luck. And I haven't gotten to send the email yet.
My dad spent the afternoon at the bookstore digging up info on schools for me. Good information, but somehow it seems to have just muddied the water.

Keep the info coming. I'm learning a lot here.

Collegeparent - thanks for your help. Yes, MIT does have a 5 year EE/CS program where you can get your masters. So does WashU.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit

Byou86. We specifically asked a CS professor about 5 year programs. The advice was to avoid it. (I don't agree w/ that advice, but it might be that I don't truly understand it). The main reason is they felt you could not get the depth required in a 5 year degree (assuming you were interested in going on to do research as a phD candidate). If you are interested in stopping at a Masters, it sounds like a reasonable way to save a full year's tuition!

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:04 am: Edit

Ben -- there's an old axiom, if there is no choice, there is no problem -- and what you're doing is creating a problem since you know that in the end you will choose MIT. MIT is your dream -- and you only get a dream like this to come true once in your life. And it is also your parents' dream for you and for them. You (and they) know you've earned it, now live it. If you don't, there'll always be a little voice in the back of your head whispering, "What if?" -- Stop vacillating and write the check now and mail it to Cambridge today. There's also another axiom, the greater the sacrifice, the greater the success. With what everyone will be sacrificing so that you can attend MIT, your success will be astonishing. And go for the 5-year program.

By Rhonda63 (Rhonda63) on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Does the 5year program mean you pay tuition for five years? If so, not sure it's worth it, since you can get grants for graduate study at MIT. I would advise against it, and you can always apply for a master's program there if you want to (I know a recent MIT grad who followed her four years there with a one-year MA, fully funded by MIT w/free housing, too -- now at a well-paying job in sunny California!).

I would also advise MIT, if you and parents understand the financial burden (sounds like you all do). Otherwise, I vote for Rice. I think Wash U is overrated academically.

By Digmedia (Digmedia) on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit

I'm not a strong advocate of any of these schools over the other (although I was in the CS Dept at CMU in the past). My very strong advice is to avoid large loans at all cost, either for you or for your parents. Any one of these schools would be great, so go with the one you like at the least cost.

By Kjofkw (Kjofkw) on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:11 am: Edit

Digmedia: Looking for more specifics on CMU! We're still torn. He's down to 2: Rice vs CMU SCS. Weather, distance, & campus seem not to matter to him.

Son loves Rice. He visits CMU again this Sunday. Rice will cost us $15,000 more than CMU (total for 4 years. Both are over our budget. Both will require loans ($15k for CMU), $30k for Rice. My guess is that 10 years from now the difference in loans won't matter, but I graduated from a state school w/o loans, so I don't know how tough they really are. Plus he wants grad school and that will be additional debt.

Son loves Rice because it is SMALL. We (the parents) are quite discouraged with Rice's lack of support and help -- due to a number of reasons spelled out on other threads. But he loves the size over CMU.

BUT....How can someone give up CMU SCS???? Especially since it is even less expensive for him than Rice? Just looking at their SCS school brochure makes one drool! (If you're interested in that type of thing).

I don't know what your position was in the SCS, but would you share with us what you know about the following questions? Rather than hog this thread, feel free to email (see profile). Yours was not included. However, Byou86 & others might be interested as well.

-Son's biggest fear is being a number at CMU. He likes personal attention and small classes. Whenever we ask the question at these colleges, they all say "some classes are large, but most are small"
-Both claim a 5:1 faculty/student ratio. I can't see him becoming just a number with those odds. But most of CMU's numbers could be due to sole teachers doing their own research thing. Classes could still be quite large.
-Both claim you can get involved in undergraduate research. There's obviously a lot more choices at CMU. But to the undergrads really get a significant role in the research...or just names on a grad student's project?
-The selectivity to get into SCS is beyond tough! Does this translate into cut-throat competiton?
-If you go to undergrad at SCS, are your chances harder/easier to go to grad school there? Would you even want to? (I think changing schools is healthier). Sometimes I think it would be better for him to save SCS for graduate school (IF he can even get in again). Other times, I think he will be giving up an incredible opportunity if he forgoes SCS for Rice. (Rice is a great school -- just not the same as SCS!)
-Rice has a nice student mix, forced together by the college system. CMU seems to have clusters (Computer nerds, Theatre Artists, Scientists) who do not necessarily mix. Is that true?
-Anything else you can share with us?

By Takempa (Takempa) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit

There was a post by a student who attended MIT as an undergrad and Rice as a grad; see http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?4/17894 and search for "Charles River" to find the post.

I've noticed that Rice offers a Scheme-based course in the Fall semesters; see http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~comp210/03fall/ I mention this because I think that CS grad schools would expect a student to know Lisp. So, Rice isn't deficient in this regard.

Also, see http://www.meangene.com/essays/mit.html for an interesting "tell it as it is/was" essay written by a former MIT undergrad.

Good luck in making your decision! I know that the turmoil in trying to come to a decision is probably unexpected and your necessary "rejection" of all but one of those universities will be bittersweet.

By Byou86 (Byou86) on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Thanks everyone. I still haven't made a decision, but am considering all of your advice. It's a matter of head versus heart.

By Utguy (Utguy) on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Byou,
As a person who got into a couple ivy leagues but went to a state school(an awesome state school though- UT-Austin... its CS honors program is great!)as an undergrad, I can say for sure that you won't lose out going to a "lesser" school and being the top student there, in fact your chances are better. I got into stanford for a phd with a first year fellowship (i think the stats this year are < 1.5% were admitted in my dept. and offered a fellowship which is a grad. scholarship)
and i'm pretty sure that if i went to an ivy i wouldnt have been able to shine through the pack, + in ivy's u have to take a bunch of liberal arts classes. Now MIT is the exception because of their strong commitment to a rigorous aka bs-free undergrad program, and if u do well in MIT u're in great shape to get funded in grad studies anywhere. The caveat is that if u do poorly( which i dont think u will) schools will generally prefer the guy who absolutely shone at a lesser school. Finally, I have never regretted my decision of going to UT, but i think MIT would have been the only school to have made me think long and hard about a 100,000 commitment vs. a free ride.
Hope this helps.