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Our oldest will soon be going to high school and we are debating whether or not it's worth the expense and social upheaval to send him to one of the local expensive private options. The private schools seem to produce far greater numbers of Natl. Merit finalists and send kids on to elite schools. On the other hand, our local economically and racially diverse high school always seems to chug out at least one or two like that each year. The expense is a big deal to us but manageable if we make sacrifices. So far public middle school, even in the accelerated track, has been pathetically un-challenging for our child. On the other hand, both our kids have always scored in the top 99 percentile across the board in standardized testing (including the SAT this year for the middle schooler). So can public school really be failing them? Friends tell us not to worry, in public high school our kids will take AP courses and get all the challenge they need. What are your thoughts out there? We lean toward sticking with public but we don't want to hurt our kids' opportunities in life. Love to get some input on this question.

By homeschoolmom on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 07:03 pm: Edit

You wrote, "The private schools seem to produce far greater numbers of Natl Merit finalists."

*seem* is the operative word here, I'd say. The private schools graduate lots of kids with great scores because they select kids who are likely to do well on those dimensions!

Kids scores have more to do with the value their parents place on education and their own internal motivations, their love of reading for pleasure, their enjoyment of mathematical problem-solving, etc. than their schools.

The actual "value added" by an elite private school is often questionable. Given their socio-economic background, most of them would flourish in a public school with a good selection of AP classes too. (Of course, there are the occasional students for whom a small private school can be a lifesaver, simply because they get lost in the crowd of a large assembly-line type school, for example.)

As far as college admissions, I'd say that admissions officers look more favorably on those students who graduate near the top of their socioeconomically diverse run-of-the-mill high schools than those who graduate in the "middle of the pack" at an elite highly selective private school.

If your child is happy in his current school milieu (not bored), I'd say stay with it. If he's terribly bored, consider alternatives, but have him spend some serious time investigating those alternatives (like spending at least a full day sitting in on classes at a school he'd like to attend). Also, for extra challenge while in high school, investigate whether local colleges will allow him to take a class or two as a non-matriculated student. (Colleges in many areas have special deals that allow high school students to take their classes inexpensively as long as there's extra space available in a course.) Then too there are distance-learning alternatives (e.g., Stanford's EPGY, for example).

Of course, there's always homeschooling! It's not for everyone, but it's been great for some kids who've really taken ownership of their education. They've asked far more of themselves than any teacher, public or private, would ever think to ask. Suggested reading for those interested: Grace Llewellyn's "Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to quit school and get a real education."

Or, if homeschooling is too radical a thought, there's another book from the same author:
"Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or Without School."

And no, I have no connection with the author other than having purchased one of her books several times (because I keep forgetting who I loaned it to, not getting it back, and wanting another copy!)

By Patience on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

More than anything else, IMO, what matters is what kind of learning environment your child is likely to thrive in. I would be evaluating the school options with an eye to such things as class size, extra-curricular opportunities, athletics, other special interests, etc., as opposed to college outcome per se. A kid who is a naturally high achiever will likely achieve well in either a public or private school environment. However, in the highly selective private school he might have more academic peers. Some kids thrive more with increased competition, others don't care for it and would be happier in a place where they are consistently at the top. In some public schools it's difficult for kids who like sports but who are maybe less talented to participate on teams...whereas at many private schools just about anyone who wants to can play their favorite sports.

We're going through the same kind of decision-making process for our youngest child, and we're finding it to be a tough call to make. However, his personal preferences and the "cultures" of his school choices will probably carry the day in the end. For example, our public high school has some classes for freshmen and sophomores that may have as many as 30-35 students in them, whereas we know that a private school will rarely if ever have a class larger than the 15-18 student range, and many will be considerably smaller.

Again, I think a student who is destined to be a high achiever can succeed in either environment in terms of outcome, but it's what is involved in living those four years of high school that I am most concerned with.

By dj_cosine on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

you should defnitely consider it. if he's in a private school, a good one, is chances at top 50 schools go up tremendously. but it would have to be a competitivtive school. i'm a student at one such school, and if cost is an issue pursue a scolarship. he should have no trouble if you demonstrate need, have multiple children enrolled, and your kids are good students. you might get in for next to nothing. my schoool, which is fiercely competitive, had 5 merit scolarships in a class of 35 (last year it was 7 of 32). and 11 of our 34 juniors were in the 99th% on the PSAT this year. numbers don't work like that at public schools.

oppurtunity is unfairly served to the well to do on silver platters. if you're an idealist send him to public school, it's the more upright thing to do, but if you're a pragmatic, send him/her to a prep school.

is he mature? because drugs and sex, suprisingly to some, are more common and permissible at private schools, though violence is rare. drugs are a huge problem, students buy sel and use them more frequently in private schools, becasue private schools don't have gestapo tactics, and don't turn kids over to the cops if they get caught.

ask other parents. you'd have to start next school yer, unless of course you've already tested and applied to school. go to open houses in the fall, and look around.

By Dadster on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit

I don't think that the type of high school a student attends confers a tremendous advantage when it comes to elite admissions. The top colleges understand that some high schools don't offer the same advanced opportunities that others do, and look at how well the student used the resources available.

To me, a lot comes down to the student and how he or she will be influenced by the peer group and learning environment. In a typical mediocre high school (with only occasional elite-oriented students) and a population that is not overwhelmingly college-bound, different students will react differently. If your kid will rise to the top of this group and be entirely self-motivated, a high school like this could be a great opportunity to shine. If your kid is more likely to achieve only to the level of his/her peers, then perhaps a prep school or magnets school environment might be better.

By Rubino Bradway on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit

I have had kids attend public high school, charter high school and two Catholic high schools (one larger co-ed, one very small all-female). I would choose Catholic school again (we're not Catholic), and I would choose a smaller school over a larger one.
In larger public schools, there is always a group that will perform exceedingly well no matter where they go, usually the AP, top 10% kids. If your child is in that tier, I don't think it matters, but if he/she is in the next tier down, those kids who are C students who could be B students, or B students who could be A students, I would not rely on public school to give them the incentive.

By Mom on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Rubino Bradway,

I appreciate you comments on this question. Our kid does very, very well on standardized tests and grades in public middle school, but he's telling us he wants to go to a high school where it isn't considered so weird to be smart and into academics. We really don't feel comfortable about the elitism of private school and the tuition will be hard but we don't want to hurt our kid's opportunities. Our public school system is a bit rough - some gang issues in high school, guns confiscated at middle school. The vast, vast majority of kids are barely passing high school equivalency. Is it time to go private? It's not so much about getting into a great college or having perfect SATs. It's about having a good healthy high school social experience. When I go in his middle school I'm really shocked by the behavior I see.

By Dadster on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Mom, I'd take a look at the peer group your son will be encountering in the system. Almost every public high school has undesirables - the real question is whether there is a large enough group of college-bound, academically-oriented kids for your son to associate with. With a large enough peer group, I wouldn't anticipate too many issues. If he's one of a small number of motivated, studious kids, though, it will be more difficult to stay the course.

By Carolyn on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

We faced just this question last year with our daughter. She had excelled in our small public school K-8 district but sometimes seemed less than challenged. Our local public high school offers no AP classes (and only a few "honors" classes), only one language, and much of the instruction is done via computer (the district calls this "high tech education"). Worse, in our view, students get hour and a half unsupervised study halls each day when they are allowed to leave campus.
Our daughter, of course, very much wanted to go on to this high school with her friends. So, we decided to approach the high school decision much like a college search: where would she get the best education and still be happy? We weren't looking so much at which school would help her get into college as we were at which school would help her get a great education.

We took our daughter on h.s. tours, including the local high school. We talked to students, teachers, admissions counselors. Our daughter's opinion about wanting to go to the local h.s. started to change when we actually visited the school and she saw the atmosphere there (and it didn't help that the guidance office was unwilling to meet with us to answer any of our questions about their program). We live in a very upscale suburban area but the atmosphere of this huge school (2000 students)actually scared my daughter.

Somewhat to our surprise, the school she decided she liked best was a mid sized catholic high school with a very traditional college prep program. She was placed in several honors classes there and will begin taking AP classes next year. She absolutely loves her teachers and has fit right in with a new group of friends. The overall atmosphere of the school is very supportive and friendly. We're amazed at how challenging the level of work is compared to what she was doing just last year. Even more amazing to us was how much work she had to do at first just to get up to speed in several areas --- the girl who has always been at the top of her class in public school had to learn some pretty basic things that public school seems to have neglected (i.e., grammar, spelling skills) in order to compete in this school. She's also been surprised to hear what her friends are doing in the public school --- how their classes and work loads compare to her own. True, they're making "A's" with very little homework, but she's making "A's," and really feels she's learning and accomplishing something and she is very proud of that. To me, that's worth the extra expense (and it is costly).

Our son is in 7th grade and we've decided we'll take the same road with him next year - let him see what's available and make the decision then. We'd like him to follow his sister's footsteps but another school may "fit" him better.

True, the money we're spending now could help pay for college but I guess I'm more worried about making sure my kids get a good basic education BEFORE college. It's wonderful to see my daughter finally being challenged and stretching herself and I think that will serve her well no matter where she ends up after high school. It's money well spent. That to me is what should be considered in choosing a high school, not whether the high school is going to get a child INTO college: look at the quality of education and the quality of opportunities available and then make your choice as to whether the cost is worth paying.

Carolyn

By Mom on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Carolyn,

Your post really resonates with me. As high school gets closer and closer for my oldest, I'm leaning more and more toward the type of option your daughter selected. Great approach to do a true "search" for the right school, involving your daughter.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Great post, Carolyn.

We lucked out in that our daughter is in a large public high school that is at least okay and has test scores, etc., that put it signficantly above the national median, etc. Fair amount of honors classes, a lot of AP's but no one could take them all because some of them are foreign language-based (five languages total: Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Latin...Spanish and German have AP's, French only Honors). Terrific music program. Great English department. Very good math department. I'm not wild about the Science department and the Social Studies department is a crap shoot...it very much depends on which teacher you get and as a parent/student, you have no control.

But we still had the shortfalls you indicated. When daughter took a just-in-case middle-school entrance exam toward the end of sixth grade, the only reason she knew what various parts of speech were was from playing Mad-libs!

Her middle school was terrific, though--National Blue Ribbon, etc.--and prepped her well for high school.

The discouraging thing is: she was only three years old when I transferred to an office that would allow me to get a work-related permit to get her into an elementary school that feeds the better of the two middle schools. Ridiculous. But until the rules and circumstances change, you play by the current rules and circumstances.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Mom, our daughter was in the same boat. 96-99 percentile (depending on what was being tested) in middle school. Went to a very diverse public high school where some students excel and some just scrape by. Based on her PSAT, she'll be no less then semifinalist for National Merit; last year the school had 7 finalists and one semifinalist...don't know about this year yet, let alone next year, of course.

Dadster has it right when he says every school has its undesirables. Daughter's hs keeps the antisocial stuff like fighting, weapons, drugs, alcohol pretty close to zero on campus...can't control what happens off campus.

I'm very glad that daughter has had the public route: she's had to deal with the same cross-section she'll have to deal with when she goes off into the world. And some of the private schools have far too much of the "We're going skiing in Switzerland over Christmas break, wanna come?" phenomenon for our tastes.

By Carolyn on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Don't get me wrong - many public high schools can-- and do -- work and work well. I have many friends whose kids have received excellent educations through various public school systems.

They shouldn't automatically be ruled out but they shouldn't automatically be assumed to be the best choice either.

Whether public or private, parents need to make an informed choice and that means getting REAL information about the school your child will be attending --- classes offered, how kids are chosen and tracked into honors and AP classes, what type of electives are offered, test scores, class sizes, etc.

Ask for a copy of their course description list and compare it to that of other public and private schools. Ask to see a few sample class syllabii and meet a few teachers in core subject areas. Ask how kids do on those AP test scores. Instead of just finding out what percentage of students go on to college, find out where kids going on to college actually go to college (I think it says a lot when most kids going on to college are just funnelled to the state university or local community colleges. To me, it means that the school doesn't necessary give kids any other options, perhaps because it's just easier to funnel everyone along the same path).

Also, ask about how many students each guidance counselor is assigned. That will make a real difference in being able to make sure your kid is getting the best course selection possible for his/her talents. At our high school, for example, we were shocked to discover that the school had 1 guidance counselor per 800 students. Students had to wait 4 weeks for an appointment for counseling with a "real" guidance counselor. When we asked about this, we were assured it wasn't a problem because the guidance department secretary helped students if they had any questions about their class schedules and the guidance counselors mostly just worked with "problem" students. I don't know about you, but I kind of would like someone besides a secretary helping my kids decide which classes to take each year.

Talk to other parents whose kids are already in the school - ask them these same types of questions - how quickly do teachers get back to you (teachers at my daughter's school are required by school administrators to return emails or phone calls by the end of the school day), how responsive have they been when your kids have had a problem, have you heard of any fights or drug problems, how much homework does your child have every night, how many papers does he/she write each semester(if the answer is: not too much homework or no papers, I personally think that's a warning sign), how many books do they read in english and what type of books do they read? Is there a summer reading list? etc. etc. Ask specifics. We found that after a while we were able to get a pretty good sense of how each school thought of and treated its students: were they considered mature responsible adults or problems that needed to be warehoused until they could be moved on as someone elses problem?

Again, I'm suggesting doing this for PUBLIC schools as well as private schools so you really know what you will be getting. Then, you can make an informed choice or at least be prepared to deal with any inadequacies you will be facing in the next four years.

And, as we discovered, nothing beats walking around a high school a few times during the day to get a feel for what the atmosphere is really like. Perhaps the biggest turn off for my daughter about our local public school was learning that when the bell rings, the doors to each classroom automatically lock students inside for "security" purposes. She thought it was like a prison.

In addition to private schools, however, another possibility to consider in the high school search is looking at an intra or inter district transfer to a high school with a different academic or social situation. Several students from my daughter's middle school arranged to be transferred into a different high school within our district that has a more established reputation and a better academic program. Their parents have been pleased with the choice.

For us, it was very important to involve our daughter in this process. In looking at schools, the school I thought would be "perfect" for her - the small, exclusive prep school with tons of personal attention and a beautiful picture-perfect campus was also a turn off to her - she felt that the kids were too snobby after spending a day on campus. Even though I knew she'd get a terrific education there, I had to trust her gut instinct.

As I said, the school where she ended up would not have been my first choice (we actually added it in as an after thought) but it has worked out wonderfully for her and for us. The personal attention and friendly atmosphere combined with traditional educational approach is a good fit for her. As at every school, there are some (minor) drinking and drug problems (mostly drinking) but the school administration seems to really be on the ball about dealing with any problems immediately (and keeping the parents VERY informed of everything that occurs and actions taken) and the majority of parents seem involved and concerned enough that the problems seem to be kept to a minimum, and not to dominate school culture.

Overall, In spite of her reservations about having to leave the group of friends she had been with since kindergarten, she's happy. Believe me, when we first suggested that we were going to consider other options, there were moments when she reacted rather...hmmmm....dramatically to the whole idea but now she has actually thanked us several times for sending her to this school. Imagine that. LOL!

I apologize for making this post so long but I hope others can learn from our experiences --- while so much is written about making a choice about college, really very little is ever said about deciding on a high school.

Carolyn

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 08:15 pm: Edit

No apologies needed for a long post that's good.

A couple of notes: "tracking" is a dirty word
in some districts...stupidly, you have to ask
about Honors and AP classes without offending
the bureaucracy by saying "tracking"

For the AP scores and lots of other stuff, ask
for a copy of the high school profile. This is
a doc about the high school that the high school
has to provide the colleges so the colleges can
evaluate them. Our has tasty tidbits like what
percentage go to four-year college (55), what
percentage go to two-year college (38), how
the SAT scores are 40-50 points higher than
national averages per segment, what percentage
pass the various AP exams (ranges from very good
to abyssmal), what percentage are on the federal
school lunch program, what the ethnic breakdown
is, etc. etc. etc. etc. One of the interesting
things is that the school normally outguns one of
the local "prestige" private schools in terms of
things like national merit semifinalists & finalists.

Our guidance counselor ratio was just dropped from
500+ to 1 to 375 to 1.

The one thing I'm most concerned about is that they do a fair amount of writing but very little in the way of formal research papers...her 5th-grade teacher and middle-school teachers made her write more extensive papers than the high school teachers, most of whom assign papers in the 3-5 page range. Maybe it's workload and reading/grading...being public, they do have large classes.

Talking to other parents is always good. Do it years in advance. I have to admit, when I first saw the hs, I didn't like some of the visuals: kids with no notebooks, books, hanging out in the quad. It really is two schools...one for academic kids and one for kids who want to hang out. We finally made our peace with that because the results for our daughter have been so good. They've been working a lot on the "chill" crowd but I don't know how they can change anything until they change attitudes.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 03:06 am: Edit

It really depends on the kids.

Both my kids attended public magnet high schools - two DIFFERENT schools however -- and neither is an academically competitive magnet. My daughter is at an arts magnet, and the environment for academics is very lax. (Kids cut class all the time with minimal consequences; most teachers grade on a curve that makes it easy for my daughter to come out on top.). My daugher is extremely self-disciplined and organized, and very quick to pick up on material (excellent memory for what she hears and reads) - and she is thriving. She loves the freedom, she loves the fun - she is assigned to advanced level classes and will easily track into honors and AP courses. So basically, for her this environment is ideal - but it is disastrous for the kids who need more structure and support.

My son went to a much more supportive high school, that had an outcome-based approach - basically kids could "revisit" important exams until they were satisfied with their grades, and there was a very in-depth, exploratory project-based approach to learning. Again, he excelled - it was a perfect environment for his independent and creative thinking style, and he was able to take all the AP courses the high school offered -- but about a third of the class dropped out before the end of senior year.

There's a certain advantage in college admissions down the line that comes with being at the head of the pack academically at a regular school, as opposed to being in an extremely competitive academic environment. I mean, face it - both my kids are smart, self-starters, and both have been happy at high schools where they really don't have to put in much effort to get A's. If they were bored or weren't able to take advanced courses, I'd feel differently - but both seem to have really enjoyed their respective high schools. In the end, my son had a good foundation and was well prepared for college. So basically, they made choices that allowed them to have fun and explore in high school, earn grades that put my son (and should put my daughter) in the running for highly selective colleges, and get a reasonably good but not extraordinary high school education.

I would never have wanted either of my kids, with their personalities and learning styles, to be in a highly academic competitive environment -- for different reasons, it would have had very negative emotional consequences for each -- but that really is dependent on the kid. Some kids will realy thrive in a place with a lot of structure and exceedingly high academic expectations.

Anyway, I say: match the learning environment to the kid as much as possible, and explore the various options for public alternative, charter or magnet programs, as there are some very interesting choices in addition to the regular high schools.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 10:14 am: Edit

Yeah, "fit" is just as important in high school
as with college. And each high school seems to
be its own flavor of "one size fits all;" fortunately the flavor changes from high school to high school.

Unfortunately, a lot of places don't have many
options. The high schools in Los Angeles proper range from mediocre to disasters...it's the communities on the periphery where you can find good schools--Torrance, Manahattan Beach, Culver City, Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, Calabasas, La Canada.
(Though I think Culver City is resting on its laurels.)

By Graffito1046 (Graffito1046) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 03:11 am: Edit

I myself went to a private middle school but am currently going to a public high school. My family made the switch for financial reasons, but there are advantages to going to a public high school. Since my high school is much larger than the private school there are more options for classes, and I can actually take a more difficult schedule.

The reason that private schools have higher test scores is because they get to choose the people at their schools, and they choose the people that score high!