Click here to go to the NEW College Discussion Forum

Hi all -- I'm a latecomer to this board, and wish I'd discovered all of you earlier in the game. Anyway, I'm hoping to get some insights.

My D is a senior who has narrowed her choices down to two -- Colgate and Northwestern. For many reasons, we believe that a LAC is the best choice for her. She's an excellent student and a bright and well-grounded kid, but she has developed no real passion for any particular subject or pursuit. Her ECs, while respectable enough to gain her admission to these and several other excellent schools, are not remarkable. So for all the usual reasons, i.e., small classes, close contact with full professors, we've leaned towards an LAC. We'd love her to "get inspired" about something, and feel that a small school is the best place for that. In many respects, Colgate seems like a great fit. But I do have a few reservations about Colgate. Its "party school" reputation is of concern to me. I have also heard that Colgate is beginning to bring in sub-par visiting professors to teach classes, and that its record of graduate school placement is not nearly as high as that of its peers. Northwestern, on the other hand, has all the disadvantages typically associated with a large university -- big classes, little contact with tenured professors for undergraduates. At least that's what I think. It's also in our back yard (we're in metropolitan Chicago.) But I am lured by Northwestern's outstanding reputation. US News cites Colgate for "most beer" and "most hard liquor," while citing Morthwestern as offering "best academic experience overall!" Gives me pause. D, by the way, is leaning towards Colgate, especially because she loves the idea of being part of a close colleges community. Can't blame her. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:19 pm: Edit

What is your D interested in? I know several history profs at Northwestern and they are all outstanding. Don't know about class size, though. However, once past the introductory-level classes, I'm sure students would be able to get into small classes which would give them more direct contact with profs. I'd choose Northwestern over Colgate.

By Wjb (Wjb) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:44 pm: Edit

She's not certain about a major, but she has taken virtually every social studies course -- history, psychology, international relations -- her high school offered. I'm sure that's an area she'll pursue. Where she'll wind up is uncertain.So are you advocating Northwestern by virtue of its stronger academic reputation?

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Both because it has a stronger academic reputation and because it seems to have less of an alcohol fueled party scene.

By Julia_525 (Julia_525) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 01:17 am: Edit

Northwestern has a seminar requirement for two quarters freshmen year. Only 15 in the class. Foreign Language classes have around 15 in them. Math classes 35. Other intro classes (like Philosophy, Physics) over 100.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 01:40 am: Edit

Based on the information supplied, either school seems like it would work.

I happen to be an LAC fan, and for the reasons you cite. If your D is in fact "well-grounded" I think she'd be fine at Colgate, which has very good history and political science departments, among others. But I don't think Northwestern is too large a school for someone like your D, and as Marite indicates, the academics there are excellent across the board. Having visited both places, I think Northwestern has it all over Colgate location-wise, for a variety of reasons, but then I didn't grow up in the immediate area.

Is there a third option - maybe another LAC? One without a big greek or party culture? If so, I'd throw that in the mix. Regardless, make sure you actively support your Ds final decision.

By Wjb (Wjb) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:46 am: Edit

I appreciate the responses.

As for other options, ReidMc, D was admitted to UMichigan’s Honors Program, which she has ruled out. She was also admitted to another fine LAC, Colby, but hesitates to attend for a different reason: We’re Jewish, and D wants a school with a reasonable Jewish community. The Jewish population at Colby is quite small. Colgate is somewhat unusual among LACS (aside from a few like Oberlin and Wesleyan, neither of which interested her) in having a relatively large number of Jewish students. (Middlebury might have been a good choice too, but unfortunately, D was waitlisted there.)

We will investigate the seminar requirements at Northwestern, which sound great. D plans an overnight visit at each school over the next couple of weeks. We will certainly support her decision, and it is ultimately hers. (Well, I think it is – my husband may not agree, LOL. He is not conflicted in the least, and would be happy to have her mail in the Colgate acceptance today.) But we’ve been so focused on the suitability of an LAC for her that it’s tough to shift gears. I think D and I are almost searching for reasons to choose Colgate – a school with less academic cachet and a lower national profile – over Northwestern.

Can anyone speak to the issues of Colgate’s reliance on visiting professors or sub-par graduate school placement among Colgate students? How about the ease with which undergraduates can make real contact with profs at Northwestern?

By Marite (Marite) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 07:10 am: Edit

The reason why it's easier to make contact with profs in LACs as opposed to large universities is not that university profs are inaccessible. Most have office hours, and most spend those office hours waiting in vain for students to show up. We saw that at Yale where my S was able to hog the whole office hour of a prof because no Yale undergrad was waiting to see him. In fact,there was no student in the whole building that we could see. Students do not come to office hours; they wait until the end of class to approach the prof with their questions. So if they are in small classes, it's easier to talk to the prof after the lecture. Much less formal than coming to office hours even without having to make an appointment. The small classes at Northwestern suggest that it must be easy for students to have plenty of contact with profs as well as opportunities for having lots of in-class discussions which I think is a very valuable part of college education.
As for Colgate's visiting profs: All universities rely on visiting profs to fill in for profs who go on sabbatical leave. The question would be: is this a very widespread and consistent pattern or a bit of a fluke? For example if a large contingent of faculty got hired the same year, they are going to be eligible for sabbatical the same year. But then, they won't be eligible again for another 6-7 years and thus will be on campus for that length of time. So you might have hit a fluke year. But there are universities that are in financial trouble and love it for their faculty to go on leave so that they don't have to pay their salaries. Finally, there are universities that have severely curtailed their hiring of permanent faculty and rely heavily on adjunct (part-time) faculty. These are paid derisory sums by the course and are given no benefit or space in which to meet with students.
Check which of these scenarios apply to Colgate.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit

I'd reinforce my earlier post. Either school would be a fine choice. I think Colby would work too, but religious and cultural issues do need investigation. (There may be more Jews in your zip code than there are in the whole state of Maine.) In your position I'd be agonizing over the details just like you are.

Colgate is significantly bigger that most selective LACs and that is a plus and a minus - a plus because it's easier to find a decent-sized group of people you are comfortable with, but a minus (in my mind) when the dominant culture is "greek/party hard." There is some debate about how dominant the latter actually is (and of course, whether it is a good or bad thing) but any way you look at it it is not Animal House all over campus. And I very much doubt that the visiting professor situation is any different from other highly selective LACs. Within the academic community the Colgate faculty has a very strong reputation, and I am sure they keep their house in order.

Your daughter's visits will likely solve this one. Just hang on till then.

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit

About the "sub-par graduate school placement among Colgate students," I think you're referring to the Wall Street Journal article which focused on only the Top 5 business, medical and law schools; other graduate schools in those disciplines as well as graduate schools in education, journalism, engineering, theater, etc. were not even considered. Actually it was surprising that Colgate was not included among the top undergraduate schools feeding MBA programs considering the number of Colgate econ majors who eventually get their MBAs and wind up on Wall Street; ditto the Wall Street law firms. It was very narrow in its focus -- and in some circles it's been discredited. For example Reed came in last in that survey, but to look at the graduate placements on its website, it should've been ranked much higher, but the placements fell outside of the three disciplines tracked. Again, the WSJ was quite limited in its survey and was skewed -- and should be considered in that light.

Other than that, I agree with Reidmc, that your daughter will make up her mind during her visit. In the end, I think it'll be location that'll be the deciding factor for her. And BTW, there is a great deal of assimilation of Jewish students at Colgate, which number about 20% of the student body. Everyone's involved in all of the campus groups and communities; no one's really hanging out at Hillel, except maybe for Shabbat or the High Holidays.

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Wjb, I thought this sounded familiar. I think your husband is Dadogirl who was on the Individual School, Top LACs, Colgate forum. You can check over there for more of this conversation.

By Collegeparent (Collegeparent) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Also, one more thing about that WSJ Graduate "feeder school" list, here are 12 schools considered to be among the most prestigious in the country (the Brody Report, the executive recruiter, citing 50 schools with most successful graduates) that didn't make the WSJ list:

NYU
Carleton
UCLA
Colgate
Wisconsin
UNC
William & Mary
Vanderbilt
Smith
Davidson
Texas - Austin
USC

Pretty good company.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 01:00 pm: Edit

Taking in all of the info you gave in the original post, I would cast my vote for Colgate. Your gut feeling and your daughter's preference are for the school, and college is the ideal time to make that break out of one's back yard. The LAC experience is not an opportunity she is easily going to have in the future. The larger national university--even specifically NW is one that can be experienced later after her wonderful undergraduate years. There are certain kids for whom a LAC does not work, but she does not sound like one of them.

My neighbor has 2 daughters at Colgate. One is a party animal, the older, a serious, quiet student who is a top student there. They both love the school. My neighbor feels that the active party scene was more of a benefit for the older one since she needs easy access to a social life in order to participate. A serious, study school would not have drawn out the more social elements in her. The younger one, well, she could sniff out a party anywhere so what the heck.

Good luck to your daughter, and let us know what she chooses between these fine schools.

By Wjb (Wjb) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Thank you all for your informative and thoughtful responses. Sorting all this out is far from easy, especially when one of the sorters is an 18-year-old girl! I'll let you know the outcome of my daughter's visits.

By Wjb (Wjb) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Our daughter has made her decision, and it’s Colgate.

My daughter, husband, and I attended the Admitted Students event at Colgate earlier this week. It was very well planned and quite informative. We heard from deans and the president, attended student panels on career placement and residential life, and got real information about the school’s mission and its implementation.

There were honest answers to our concerns. We spoke at length, one-on-one, with President Rebecca Chopp, who has been there since 2002. She is enormously impressive – and told us very candidly about the college’s efforts to refute its “party school” image in two ways, one conventional, the other more visionary. First, the University is in the process (to be completed by 2005, I believe) of buying back fraternity houses from the nationals in order to assume control over what goes on inside those houses. Second, to combat excessive drinking in the dorms, the university has made the living experience an organized program of its own, now called “residential education”. In addition to the traditional undergraduate RA on each dorm floor, the school has hired recent graduates to staff a full-time position in each dorm. These alums will be tasked with teaching self-governance and drawing kids into the many, many opportunities at Colgate other than studying or just sitting around the dorm partying. (Sounds a bit to me like the Social Director on a cruise: “Why don’t we all go play a good game of shuffleboard?”) As for academics, President Chopp let us know that Colgate succeeded this year in hiring 11 of its 12 top faculty choices, and she took special pride in telling us that this included 3 of 4 candidates whose final choice was between Colgate and Princeton .

We were pleasantly surprised at the range of students. Maybe it’s because of Colgate’s slightly larger size vis-a-vis its peers, but there was an eclecticism about the student population that we did not sense at other LACs on my daughter’s list. The students on the panels we attended were not just bright and articulate, but they were also diverse in interests, outlook, and post-college plans. The students who hosted my D were intelligent and engaging, and unabashedly enthusiastic about their school.

It was interesting – and a bit surprising -- to hear about the various schools other visiting kids were still considering. Our D stayed in the dorm with high school seniors who were deciding between Colgate and Middlebury, Colgate and Vanderbilt, and, believe it or not, Colgate and Harvard. (Now that’s proof that some people out there are not slaves to the US News rankings!)

We were scheduled to attend Northwestern’s admitted students program this coming Monday, but my daughter came home from school yesterday and announced that in the end, the sole reason she’d choose Northwestern over Colgate would be NW’s somewhat loftier US News ranking. We all agree that perceived “prestige,” standing alone, is not a valid reason to choose a college. Sounds a bit melodramatic, but D believes – and we concur – that Colgate is the place where she’s most likely to have a life-changing experience, not just get a well-respected degree. For her, the easy access to excellent professors who really want to teach and inspire undergrads, the strong sense of community, and the potential to “be someone” make Colgate the optimal choice.