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My D got a 1600 on her March 27 SAT. Currently she is ranked number 1 in her class of 260 at an average public high school in Massachusetts. She has strong EC's. Does this give her a good shot at Harvard. That is her first choice.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:32 pm: Edit

It certainly puts her in the running, but there are no sure things in elite college admissions.

By Candi1657 (Candi1657) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Ditto.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

That gives her a shot at Harvard. With their accept rates, HPYS are all lottery tickets regardless of a student's qualifications. Another good indicator of your D's chances are to find out how many kids from your school are accepted from these schools; where do the top 5 go to college in the last 3-5 years? Also most ivies and top schools do not go on the 1600 scale for the SAT but for the 4000 scale using the SAT1 numbers and the three highest SAT2. The difficulty of her curriculum and courses also figure strongly in this picture as well as her ECs and recs.

When your daughter picks her colleges, she certainly should apply to her top choices, but once she cherry picks from the top which is easy to do, she needs to delve into the materials and pick schools that are less selective that can still give her what she wants in the way of an education and college experience. That is the hard part of coming up with the list. It takes 2 seconds if that to come up with HPYS. It can take weeks, months, of work, research and visits for schools that you can love that are not such namebrands.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

She has a chance, but it is no where near a sure thing. I think something like 50% of 1600 scorers get accepted to Harvard, and I have seen some extremely strong candidates with those stats rejected.

I second what Janimom is saying. I would imagine that there are schools ranked about 15-25 in the country that would be good match schools for your daughter. There are schools ranked 50-25 that would be good safeties for her.

It's fine to apply to places like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, but see them as lottery tickets. Your D should do careful applications, paying particular attention to the essays. I think that a lot of students with stellar scores blow off essays, which is a big mistake because the essays count a great deal. Excellent essays can cause a college to pick a 1350 student over a 1600 one.

Make sure that she has match and safety schools that she loves, not schools that she has picked at random because she's so sure she'll get into a place like HPYS.

Also realize that your D's scores would make her a prime candidate for merit aid as well as great offers such as laptops, mentorships, international travel,e tc. from some of the less selective first tier and of course second tier colleges. Make sure she examines those options, too.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

I would say that she has enough of a shot to make it worthwhile applying if Harvard is a good fit for what she wants in an undergrad education. However, she does not have enough of a shot that she should consider it likely that she will be accepted.

My advice would be to build the college list under the assumption that Harvard does not exist. Then, if by chance, she gets accepted to Harvard, figure that she got a bonus.

To answer your question more specfically would require evaluating her specfic interests, activities, and essays.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:05 pm: Edit

One additional thing to keep in mind is that Harvard is flooded with excellent applicants from Mass. and other parts of the NE. I know alum from that region who had stellar kids who didn't get in.

Fine to encourage your daughter to apply, and to give it her best shot. Just realize that she's not guaranteed admission. Her wonderful accomplishments also will stand out more in applications to top schools outside of the NE.

By Northeastdad (Northeastdad) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Just to give you another data point: My D got 1570. NM finalist. Ranked #1. Hardest classes in the history of (average) high school. Very involved in ECs. President of amnesty international club for 2 years. President of community service club. Varsity tennis player. Pianist. Excellent Essays (won several awards for writing). Rejected by Harvard, Yale, Stanford.

By Marianne (Marianne) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 04:14 pm: Edit

At our decent public school, number one and sometimes two are always accepted to Harvard if they apply (this year number one didn't apply). At the slightly better public school in the district near us, no one is ever accepted to Harvard, even number one and two. At the top-ranked prep school in our area, at least five are accepted every year. I think acceptances often depend on the history a college has with a particular high school.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Yes, our top student, if he or she has the qualifications, nearly always is admitted to Harvard, even though I have seen several with qualifications less amazing than those of rejected students who have posted on this site. The adcom reps there do seem to make a connection with the GCs, even in our midlevel public school, in a way other reps don't do. So...take a look at the history in your particular school.

By Momrath (Momrath) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 09:22 pm: Edit

I second all of the above comments. Your daughter has a shot but not a guarantee. Make it her best shot, but have appealing alternatives. Even valedictorians need safeties that they can love.

You daughter should ask herself, if I were in a line up with 10 other kids with perfect SATs, stellar grades, beautiful recommendations and top ranking, what would make them choose me? What makes her memorable, a standout in a pool of achievers? This is where the extra-curicculars, life experiences, and essays come in. What can she offer to her class at Harvard that the other 9 can't?

By Ibkid (Ibkid) on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:13 am: Edit

the val in my class was rejected from brown but accepted at harvard!!!

By Nyc1000 (Nyc1000) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 01:02 am: Edit

She needs to put together a profile of herself and her accomplishments that show how special she is. Essays, ECs, obstacles overcome, and teacher recs are all quite important.

By Ucaaron (Ucaaron) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 02:10 am: Edit

My goodness, a 15-25 school merely a match? Are you out of your mind?! Look at the rank, ECs and SAT!!!!
Your daughter should not worry about getting into Harvard, because if she doesn't get in, t's not her fault. If your daughter has a 1600 and is ranked #1 you should not be asking around on this board, because it clearly is irrelevant as to what other parents think. Your daughter can obviously not do any better, so are you seriously just trying to make all the average people feel bad by asking an absurd question?

By Psedrish_Md (Psedrish_Md) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 11:39 am: Edit

Grades & exam numbers won't get you into Harvard. They might get your app looked at, but that's about it.
From there, character (as hinted at by letters or rec., essays, choice of ECs & even the interview), level of accomplishment in non-academic areas (including the arts & sports), legacy, geography and minority status all play important roles in who gets into the school.
In other words, numbers may get you into the dance, but they won't guarantee you that you'll be asked to dance.

By Emmline (Emmline) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Quote: Ucaaron: If your daughter has a 1600 and is ranked #1 you should not be asking around on this board, because it clearly is irrelevant as to what other parents think. Your daughter can obviously not do any better, so are you seriously just trying to make all the average people feel bad by asking an absurd question?

Kind of like Julia Roberts asking some ordinary women if this dress makes her look ugly.

By Ucaaron (Ucaaron) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 08:57 pm: Edit

Or Donald Trump asking a bum on the street how to get richer.

By Michelle5888 (Michelle5888) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 11:43 pm: Edit

What is different between class rank and whole grade rank?
My friend's S was in Harvard, he told me some information for Harvard.
This is his order
1st, Top rank in whole grade
2nd, "Avg. SAT score" around 1540 (not highest SAT score, better only take one SAT test)
3rd, National Merit Scholarship finalist or semifinalist
4th, Pre-college credit - "A"
5th, AP and SAT II - "A"

Is he right?

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Your friend is not right. I am an alumni interviewer, and have heard presentations that adcoms and the Harvard admissions director make to alumni interviewers. Nothing of the sort has ever been said.

Of course, grades, scores, class rank are important, but truth is that the overwhelmingly high majority of Harvard applicants are outstanding, and qualify for admission.

Numbers aren't what get students in. Numbers just get students in line to be considered -- along with about 15,000 other students whose numbers also are strong enough for serious consideration.

Thus, what tips people in are thing such as ECs, essays, recommendations, interviews and factors such as legacy, URM, whether students apply from underrepesented regions, etc.

I don't think that Harvard pays that much attention to National Merit. Harvard is flooded with National Merit applicants, so I doubt that being a National Merit finalist or semifinalist makes that much difference when admissions is considered.

It's probably better to have excelled at some relatively rare EC than to be a National Merit finalist. They are a dime a dozen at Harvard.

Being valedictorian also probably isn't a tip factor. Harvard could fill up its class with valedictorians, but to create a well rounded class, looks at other factors.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:58 am: Edit

Burljay didn't mention anyting that makes her D stand out amongst the hundreds of other Harvard applicants with these same stats. And, based on the fact that she was asking the posters here if her D had a chance, I doubt that there is much more exciting detail to be shared on her D's accomplishments/interests. Maybe she really needed to ask, Emmline. Because if this is all there is, I don't think she has much more of a shot than any of the other applicants.

By Michelle5888 (Michelle5888) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:17 am: Edit

I was asked him about National merit finalist.
He told me, Top 1% at shchool (school rank), Top 1% at Nation Test (SAT ACT), Top 1% at State (PSAT), Potential (Pre-college credit, AP, SAT II).

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

Michelle:

It's not clear who your S's friend is or whom he got his information from. A student? An adcom officer at an information session? Could you clarify?

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:50 am: Edit

I think some posters are hard on Burljay. He asked specifically whether his D had a shot at Harvard and gave some of her stats.

There's no need to be snippy about his D's other qualifications. He mentioned that she had strong ECs. Since he chose not to describe them, I don't see how one can conclude that she will not stand out in a crowd of applicants with similar stats.

Let''s instead congratulate his D on her stellar SAT score and reiterate that stats are not everything, and that other components of her profile and application are equally important. At least, she does not have to retake the SAT umpteen times as so many students do and can concentrate on both her studies and her ECs!

So my answer to Burljay is: "Yes, your daughter has a shot at Harvard. She has every right and every reason to aim high. Remember, though, that stats are not everything. Elite universities seek to build a student body that is diverse in its interests and backgrounds; their admission process, viewed from the perspective of applicants, is a crapshoot. Your daughter should definitely apply to Harvard if that is her top choice, but she should also consider other colleges where she will have as good an education and undergraduate experience. Your daughter should continue to excel in her studies but she should also pursue her passions, whatever they may be."

By Burljay (Burljay) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit

Marite, Thank you for cutting me some slack! You might understand my giddiness. My D is doing well! Of course, we understand how difficult it is to obtain admission to Harvard. Otherwise, I wouldn't have asked the question. I am constantly telling her to work on her list. She realizes that she has to come up with some safeties and some matches. She does realize that H is a reach. It is hard to receive those scores and not wonder if this would tip the scale a little more in her favor.

On the negative side, we think she is pretty ordinary. She is a three season varsity athlete. She is very good at all three sports but not a standout. She is Captain of two of them. She is committed to the Latin Club,Math League and Student Council. She holds leadership positions in all of those. She has volunteered at lahey Clinic and our local recreation dept. She has received many academic awards but nothing spectacular (yet).

On the positive side, her class rank is number one, she has a rigorous courseload, and a 1600 SAT score.(she has not yet taken SATIIs) Our public high school does have a history of sending the top one or two to Harvard. This year it is Brown and Dartmouth. They didn't apply to Harvard.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

Burljay:

Your D sounds like a well-rounded student both academically and in terms of her extra-curricular. As long as she understands that admission at Harvard is a crapshoot and rejection is very often not a reflection on the applicant but merely a result of the college's desire to build a particular kind of class (oboe player one year vs. tuba player another year--who could predict?), then she should definitely apply there. She should also investigate other colleges. Some of the LACs produce outstanding graduates who do very well in graduate school or in professional schools. One of the top students in our high school decided to apply ED at Swarthmore and got in. Swarthmore is one of the LACs that turn out extremely well-prepared graduates.

Your D should definitely sign up to take the SAT-II this June. Take only two this time, and take the third one in October. Taking all three in one sitting can be very tiring and students are likely to do less well on the third one. If she wishes to retake one of the SAT-IIs, she will be able to combine it with the third SAT-II.

My S also took the March SAT and did well enough not to need to retake it but he did not achieve a perfect score. These are harder to obtain than one can imagine. Congrats to your D.

By Burljay (Burljay) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:59 am: Edit

She is planning to take the Writing SAT in May and the MathIIc in June. Would she be better off taking both of them in June for some reason? Is the Math IIc the right Math to take? She is most interested in Science- do you have a recommendation for which Science her third SAT II should be? Thanks

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:29 pm: Edit

If she is strong in math (i.e., is in precalculus or above) she should take the SATII-2c. From her performance on the SAT, she should do well on that test. As for the sciences, she should take the test for the course she will have more or less completed by the June test, when the materials are still fresh in her mind. If your D is in an AP science class, she should take the SAT-II in that topic (except for AP-Physics C which only covers two topics, Mechanics and Electricity and Magnetism). The SAT-II should not require extra preparation for either Chemistry or Biology. If she is not in an AP class but in Honors science, make sure that the class covered all the topics that are supposed to be tested. That is not always the case.

So my advice would be for your D to take the SATII-Writing in May and the SATII-2c and a science SAT in June. If she does not do as well as she hoped on either day, she will have October and November to retake one, two or all three tests for EA/ED and through January for RD applications.

By Hoping (Hoping) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:41 pm: Edit

you know there is almost a blessing and a curse to getting a 1600 on your sat. ablessing because you definitely feel like you have a shot at a school like harvard, a curse because you definitely feel like you have a shot at harvard,harvard is impossible to get into,in most kids mind its not really even on the radar,so while a 1600. is great youll also have to have around 800,790,790 onyour sat.2s 5s on your ap.s and an enormous amount of luck.that being said if all your scores line up the way they probably will,you should absolutely go for it,you owe it to yourself and you may even get in,i think the problem becomes that to many kids expect to get in and they dont, and rejection is so hard,especially when kids have these kind of scores and believe that theyll be he ones who will win the lottery,and when they dont its really hard to swallow becauuse you got a 1600 on your sat.s and despite everything else we all believe that numbers count for most.

By Burljay (Burljay) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Also, she has a really strong AP US History class. Does it make any sense to take the SAT II in that in June? As I said she is most interested in Science. She is doing an internship at the state house this summer. So that may change who knows?

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:37 pm: Edit

She can take more than 3 SAT-IIs. There is no limit. Colleges will look at the highest scores. The thing to watch out for is avoiding taking 3 SAT-II in one sitting.

By Michelle5888 (Michelle5888) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Marite
My friends told me, his D & S all graduate from Harvard.
Other two friends D just graduate from Harvard.
They said, SAT score 1540-1600 not much different. But lower SAT score will hurt you if you have big range on your score.
Top 3 in high school is very important.
How many students will in Harvard at your high school?

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Students' opinions are just that: opinions. They are not reliable gauge of policy.
Your friends are right about the need to have strong SAT scores. What NSM and I questioned was the ranking order of different factors.

To give you an example: My S will not be ranked. First, he will be graduating early; second, he is taking Harvard classes that are far harder than those taken by high schoolers. In fact, I recently met a Harvard freshman who is majoring in math. His math class is less advanced than the ones my S has been taking this year. So if my S applies to Harvard, will it matter more that he is not ranked or that he has so far taken 6 Harvard classes and shown that he can do at least as well as regular Harvard students? When considering class rank, colleges--including Harvard--have to consider how the ranking was arrived at. Our high school does not weigh grades. When it comes to calculating GPA and thus class rank, An A in remedial math probably counts as much as an A in an advanced Harvard math class.

I know that 5 students were accepted EA from my S's high school. I don't know how many more were accepted RD.

On another note, a friend of my S got accepted at MIT. His grades are not stellar. But he has very strong ECs and national recognition in academic extra-curriculars. I'm sure that MIT took notice of those.

By Michelle5888 (Michelle5888) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit

So, My friend was right about it.
NMS finalist need High school principals notified and provided with a certificate to present to each Finalist. So this will help ECs.
My friend also told me to spend money for Duke Pre-college credit. Finally, I know he is rich.
Your S is great, I heard lots Harvard freshman got "C" at first year math.
Why Harvard? I don't know. But nothing wrong for kids want be famously.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:36 pm: Edit

I don't know how you can conclude that your friend was right from what I wrote. Class rank as the highest criterion? Totally the opposite of what I argued. As for strong SAT scores, of course, they are important--though Harvard has admitted students with lower SATs than 1540. NMS finalist? Harvard does not care for PSAT nor for NSM finalists.
If you want to enrol your child in a pre-college credit, sure, why not. I don't know how much that will help in the college application, though it will surely help with high school performance.

If your child's high school offers APs, definitely s/he should take some. Colleges like to see applicants take the most rigorous curriculum.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 04:16 pm: Edit

"If you want to enrol your child in a pre-college credit, sure, why not. I don't know how much that will help in the college application, though it will surely help with high school performance."

I have specifically heard an Ivy League Adcom officer say that these DO NOT help admissions.

I can imagine that, in some instances, the special summer programs may hurt more...esp for a kid with a strong passion in an EC, who would have to spend less time involved with further development of the EC in order to attend summer classes in an unrealted field.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Burljay:

Is your daughter looking at MIT and Tufts? I am taking a guess at which town you live in, and I have heard that your town does send more than its share of students to those schools. MIT would be a bit less of a reach than Harvard, and Tufts is a good match.

How close to home (or far away) does she want to be?

Get copies of the essays from the 2004 application cycle. Have your daughter work on them now, so she can spend a lot of time polishing them. Excellent essays will tip her application in. Also, she should have her applications in as early as possible to increase her chances of getting an interview, which can also act as a tip factor.

Some people on this board will have more information, but if Harvard is truly her first choice, she should consider applying early decision to increase her chances of getting in.

I will reiterate the advice of taking the SAT IIs separately. She'll be able to better focus on them. Beware, as they are very different from the SAT - she should at least take a practice test or two in each subject before facing it on the exam.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Momsdream, just taking such a course because one can afford it and can't think of anything else to do doesn't help. However, if a student can demonstrate that the experience was meaningful and challenging in the context of his or her primary interests, then it does contribute toward the student's overall profile. Examples: a student doing scientific research who attends a summer program related to it; a political junkie who takes a poli sci course at a major university and does well; a young writer or actor who takes a workshop. For some kids who are not challenged or stimulated in their high schools, or who are desperate to go deeper even than AP courses do, these summer programs can provide badly needed nourishment and even help them discover their own gifts. My s was one of those, and this came across clearly on his application.

As you say, if a summer course is going to interfere with a student's pursuit of his or her passion, that's another matter altogether. There is no cookie-cutter here.

By Sac (Sac) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Butljay,

Every year Harvard mentions that more than half of those admitted came off their spring recruit list. I don't know how everyone gets on that list, but I do know that SAT score and the information students provide the College Board (including grade point) must play a role. Those on the list receive an application and a letter about why they should consider applying to Harvard at the beginning of the summer. Clearly, not everyone getting that letter will be admitted, but getting that letter is a good indication you've got a shot.

I believe that what Harvard then looks at beyond grades and scores is evidence of drive -- both intellectual and in ecs. They look for evidence of this in all kinds of places, from how much effort you've put into mastering a musical intrument, to whether you've started a club, to how you've spent your summers and after-school hours, to what your teachers say about what you're like in the classroom, to what books you read, to what you've overcome. Are you the kind of student who always does extra? Goes beyond the coursework because of interest in the material? How have you pursued and developed your one or two genuine non-academic interests? I don't think they care how many clubs someone is president or co-president of, or how many sports they play. But they will be very interested in what somebody does as club president. What is different about the club, or the team, or the classroom, or the school, or the community, because that particular student is there?

Other than that, I strongly reiterate the idea that students should come up with a list of schools they would like to attend as much as Harvard. Maybe, in the process, they'll come up with some they might like to attend even more!

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 06:39 pm: Edit

On the topic of Harvard admissions....I agree that you really have to look for a fit. Don't simply look to Harvard for name recognition.

I know a guy (a love to tell these real life stories) who is an attorney. Harvard grad. Can't get a job (not a high-level, well paying job anyway). I was kind of surprised when he asked me to float his resume in front of some of my friends at various fims. He explained that the name recognition only goes so far. For the first few years after law school, he had the world at his feet. He took advantage and climbed very quickly...to the point of being "of counsel" with a firm in NYC. But, eventually, his career stagnated, which is common of attorneys. He confided that the credit he received from the Harvard name eventually faded. This isn't just true with Harvard. This is true with any school. Find a good fit and follow your passion and pleasure.

Harvard is also the only school that has not responded to my son's emails re: their history and art history programs. All of the other schools are corresponding passionately. My son loves to discuss history, art history and museology. He's been exchanging multiple emails with every other top LAC and Ivy to get a feel for their program. Yale is even referring to him multiple professors, who are responding and seem excited. The professors at cariopus schools have been very eager to share. It has really helped my son to become excited about college. Not a peep from Harvard. And, of course, my son's resposne was "See! this is what I'm talking about". Harvard is making it hard to argue. I'm not bashing Harvard. But, people need to realize that Harvard isn't the place for everyone...even those who are smarter than the average bear.

But, if your child is dead set on Harvard....go for it!!Good luck.

By Nyc1000 (Nyc1000) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

To whom is your son sending the emails at Harvard?? The admissions department can refer him to the appropriate professors. Numerous professors there are involved in speaking to prospective applicants. It might be best to call the admissions office for a reference. Harvard has a wonderful art history program, by the way, and in my experience excellent treatment of undergrads.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:38 pm: Edit

"getting that letter is a good indication you've got a shot."

Sac, sorry, although I do believe the OP's child may have a shot, receiving that letter doesn't mean a whole lot, at least not around these parts. Walking and chewing gum wasn't quite the only criterion, but close. Seems like a good way to keep the apps high and thus the percent selected low. Of course, Harvard is not alone in doing this.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Momsdream: I know that a member of the faculty who is a specialist in museum studies at Harvard is on leave. So if your S tried to email her, he would not get a response.
For what it's worth, my S emailed the director of undergraduate studies in one department at Yale twice and did not get a peep out him. He emailed the director of undergraduate studies in another department and not only received a prompt reply but was also able to talk to him for a whole hour during our visit. A thank you email from our son prompted a response with more advice.

By Sac (Sac) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Aparent4,
The gist of my post was to give the OP an idea of what Harvard looks for beyond grades and stats. I mentioned the spring recruit list as evidence of the importance of grades and especially SATs taken in junior year to Harvard -- as indicated by the fact that they take such a high percentage of their admitted class from that list. I think if you're not on that Spring list your odds are even lower. I never meant to suggest getting their unsolicited application in the mail in June means you're into Harvard or close to it. I hope no one else interpreted my post that way.

P.S. Walking and chewing gum at the same time may be a good ec, but only if you've been doing it for years and have reached a state or national level of achievement in it.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

P.S. Walking and chewing gum at the same time may be a good ec, but only if you've been doing it for years and have reached a state or national level of achievement in it.

Sac:

Too late for my S! He's been walking for the last 15 years but has only chewed gums a couple of times in his life. No resume-building possibility there!

By I_Am_Canadian (I_Am_Canadian) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit

I want to one day get exepted into Harvard, but i can't seem to find what the average grade should be to get admitted. I would really appreciate it if I could know what the average mark should be.

Thanks