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Below is a table that I constructed from information found on the matriculation report for Deerfield Academy. It is info from 4 years or so, and I calculated the Deerfield "Yield" from the other two columns origianlly to ascertain what those students thought about the places they were accepted.

Accepts Attend ATT/Accept

Princeton University 32 30 93.75%
Harvard University 41 36 87.80%
Yale University 37 31 83.78%
Pennsylvania 55 42 76.36%
Brown University 73 51 69.86%
Georgetown University 61 41 67.21%
Columbia University 19 12 63.16%
Stanford University 18 11 61.11%
Dartmouth College 34 20 58.82%
Amherst College 24 14 58.33%
Williams College 51 29 56.86%
Middlebury College 61 33 54.10%
Cornell University 62 33 53.23%
Duke University 17 9 52.94%
University of Chicago 25 13 52.00%
University of Virginia 35 18 51.43%
University of Chicago 28 14 50.00%
Washington & Lee 11 5 45.45%
Colby College 45 19 42.22%
Johns Hopkins 19 8 42.11%
St. Andrews 31 13 41.94%
Davidson College 21 8 38.10%
Bowdoin College 50 19 38.00%
Carnegie-Mellon 32 10 31.25%
UNC, Chapel Hill 13 4 30.77%
Wesleyan University 36 11 30.56%
Connecticut College 24 7 29.17%
Tufts University 69 19 27.54%
Tulane University 39 10 25.64%
Trinity College 57 14 24.56%
St. Lawrence University 21 5 23.81%
Univ of So Cal 26 6 23.08%
Vanderbilt University 49 11 22.45%
Skidmore 51 11 21.57%
Boston College 47 10 21.28%
Bucknell University 68 14 20.59%
Hamilton College 44 9 20.45%
University of Vermont 69 14 20.29%
Union College 30 6 20.00%
University of Michigan 15 3 20.00%
Colgate University 46 9 19.57%
George Washington 31 6 19.35%
University of Richmond 16 3 18.75%
Vassar College 16 3 18.75%
New York University 24 4 16.67%
Boston University 62 6 9.68%


In looking at the numbers, obviously there would be variation at other prep schools or groups of high schools....BUT ..here is my question. What do you suppose accounts for the stunningly high yields at nearly all of the top schools????

I can think of several explanations, (more Early apps, less concern over finances, better targeting with fewer other options, more legacys with a strong first preference, etc etc) but I would be interested to hear others speculations.

The reason I find this interesting is that, if it holds at other private institutions, it means that private school yields are much much higher than public school yields, and that factor alone would favor those schools in admissions, completely apart from superior preparation and credentials. (PS, I'm looking at this from a "technical" perspective.)

Comments.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:12 am: Edit

I think the higher yield at the top schools has a lot to do with the practice of applying to 10+ schools....with the top schools as first choices and the rest falling into the "if..then" category. Maybe this points to the fairly new, extreme competition at top schools...thus, requiring that students apply to more safeties than ever before.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:41 am: Edit

Moms dreams.

Thats not the point Im looking at.

For instance, HYPs overall yield is about 75-80%.

For students from this prep school, HYP gets 10 percentage points higher attendance.

Chicago's yield is around 33%, I think. These kids go at a 52% rate.

Dukes yield target this year is about 43%. They have had a yield of 53 over the past four years from this school.

Maybe its geography or a mix of factors, but it appears clear that at least for this one school, you don't have to offer as many people admission to get one matriculant.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:49 am: Edit

My feeling is that private school GCs exert a heavy hand in "managing" the application process. At my kids' school, it is rare for a student to apply to more than 3 or 4 schools; in fact, the majority of students apply ED to one of the colleges with which the school has a long standing relationship, and most who apply ED are in fact admitted. Because of the high school's relationship with the colleges, admissions are more predictable, thus, "long shot" candidates are discouraged from applying to far reach schools, and students are steered to those colleges which the GC deems a good match(hence the high yield and high acceptance rates to each student's "first choice" school.)
Contrast this with many public school students who apply to 10 or 12 colleges.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:53 am: Edit

I see!! I thought you were comparing the colleges on the list.

That's an interesting question. But, this is just one school. I guess we would have to know what the overall yield is from public schools vs. privates to gt an accurate picture. It oculd just be the culture of this school. Not all private prep schools have this culture. Some acutally take pride in avoidance of certain ivies, though their kids are certainly talented enough to get in. It isn't just about numbers.

I don't know anything about Deerfield. Where does it rank of the feeder list? I heard about a new feeder list that was just published in WSJ on Fri. But, I haven't been to my office (I telecommute most days) so I haven't seen a copy of it.

By Kidsmom (Kidsmom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:56 am: Edit

Could it have something to do with the GC making sure the kids are more focused and know where they want to go. Maybe the GC try to limit the number of schools these kids apply to so if they are accepted they are more likely to go there. I assume the GC at Deerfield have more experience getting kids into the schools they apply to than a GC at a large public school. Does it help the GC's reputation to have kids go to where they are accepted so the colleges know they can count on XYZ GC'c kids accepting. KWIM?

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit

To Dadx:

I think your point about the preponderance of Early Decision applicants at the elite preps, Deerfield included, often at over 50% of the senior class, has much to do with the increased yield at HYP.

The other factors that may come into play are the "hooks" these preppies have even BEFORE they attend Deerfield or any of the elite boarding preps. These factors include the legacy, rich and famous VIP, recruited athlete (in prep sports such as crew, lacrose, field hochey, squash, etc.), recruited URMs, geographic diversity, etc.. which HYPS and the other elites give preferential treatment to for admissions.

Also, these elite preps have a smaller graduating class than the average high school in America and more experienced college advising staffs that are better equipped to find a a better fit for these students. The factor of financial aid may be less of a factor, therefore these Deerfield students may matriculate at HYP and private elites over the less expensive elite public universities when presented with a choice.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 12:17 pm: Edit

To Dadx:

I also forgot to add that attending an elite private boarding school, such as Deerfield, Andover, Exeter, Choate, Milton, St. Paul's, Lawrenceville, Groton, and Hotchkiss, in itself is a "hook". These schools are known feeders into HYP and the elite colleges. Therefore, HYP and the elite colleges would usually admit students from these school knowing that there is a high percentage or "yield" that would matriculate, once admitted. One hand washes the other, "sort to speak".

By Nymom (Nymom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Kidsmom -- I agree with you. But again, the reason the kids are more focused is because admissions are more predictable. Applying to college from a prep school is very different from applying from a large public school. My kids' school (about 125 in the graduating class) feeds heavily to about a half dozen schools, including at least one ivy. It's not unusual for for every applicant to be admitted, and close to 10% of the class applies and attends that particular ivy. Weak candidates are steered to other schools, and my guess is that a weak student who insists on applying will receive a rather lukewarm recommendation from the GC. Otoh, the GC goes all out to get each student into the best school possible, and the chosen school is usually assured that the student will attend if admitted.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 01:01 pm: Edit

When I read this messages, I laugh at assumption that people will go to these schools because they are rich and can afford it. If money alone can gurantee admission then Mr. Young Trump will be going to HYP not to Georgetown which is a very fine school. If someone has to go to foreign service, there is not better school than Georgetown.

To me single important qualification in school is being prepared, yes it helps to have a smaller class, yes prep school can choose their students. But is not the point IVY leauge do it and pick up the cherries.

Life is not made by GPA, SATs, if that was the case college will go with merit based system. People need communication skills, winning personality, assertivness yet being friendly. These school prepare for the personal development category. MY sons have a huge transformation since they lefy New York City Magnet school where they were in top 1%. NY City magnet school would have been very good in math and scince, but when my kid started humanities belive me it was an eye opener for my kid despite being top studnet in Magnet as well as prep school.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Chinaman, your assumption about money is just wrong. In fact, some analysis has shown that some of the true upper class/moneyed crowd avoids the elite colleges: why have your kid work that hard when they'll live off trust funds anyway? Better to have fun at Arizona (golfing), Colorado (skiing), Florida etc.

Regarding yields, I can speak from the experience of friends with kids at Roxbury Latin, Winsor etc. These schools closely manage what schools kids apply to. For instance, they treat an EA accept like ED - you must take it, no more applications.

So, the elite prep school college admissions process is both more closely managed and much more predictable. It is a completely different world. A top public school may get visited by Harvard's reader for that area. The exclusive prep school will get visited by the Director or Dean of admissions. Public school kids get group info sessions with hundreds in attendance hosted by whomever is available that hour. Prep school kids get small private sessions with the Director. Public school kids interview with students (Yale for example) elite prep school kids interview with the Director. You get the idea.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Deerfield Academy was ranked #6 feeder school by the latest survey of feeder schools into 7 Ivies and 3 elite colleges.


Excerpts from

"COLLEGE PLANNING: The Price of Admission"

By ELIZABETH BERNSTEIN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
April 2, 2004; Page W1

"When Martin Quiñones was starting high school, he and his parents looked at several Boston-area private schools before settling on Phillips Academy. It was one of the most expensive schools they considered, with annual tuition of $23,400, not including room, board and other fees. But with Martin's sights on getting into a top college, his family figured it was worth it."

"They're about to find out if they were right. This weekend, the coveted fat envelopes -- and the dreaded thin ones -- for Ivy-League and other top universities are in the mail. Thousands of families across America are anxiously waiting to learn whether their huge investments in private education -- or moves to expensive neighborhoods with good public schools -- have paid off with acceptances to elite colleges. Martin Quiñones hopes for a nod from Harvard and other big names, and his family has made sacrifices to pay for his high-school education, such as driving older cars and taking fewer vacations, with that goal in mind. "If you go cheap, you're not going to get what you're hoping for -- an Ivy-class school," says Martin's father, Ricardo Quiñones, a computer consultant in Gloucester, Mass."

================


Anyway, Saint Ann's School in Brooklyn, NY, was ranked #1 for high schools having a graduating class of 50 or more in 2003 in sending the highest percentage of its graduating class to 10 highly selective colleges, 7 Ivy League schools and 3 elite colleges used by the WSJ. Only high schools with more than 50 grads last year were ranked. The WSJ ranked the high schools, including public, public magnet, private day prep and boarding schools, according to the percentage of each class matriculating at 10 highly selective colleges for the last year, Sept. '03 entering classes. These colleges are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Cornell, U.of Penn, Brown, U.of Chicago, Pomona, and Duke. Columbia and Stanford were not included because the researchers were unable to obtain the face books to verify the data. This definitely skewed the results, because traditional feeders to Columbia such as the major preps, Andover, Exeter, Milton and Horace Mann and the public magnets, such as Stuyvesant and Bronx High School of Science, which send double digit numbers to Columbia, did not have their grads who matriculated at Columbia last year counted in this survey. Stanford, MIT and CalTech, all top ten schools, were not used in the survey. This would also skew the survey, since a school like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in NYC and Thomsa Jefferson For Science and Technology send double digits of its grads each year to these colleges.

Saint Ann's School, in Brooklyn, NY ranked #1, with 30 out 74 grads matriculating at the 10 colleges or 41% of its grads last year. Collegiate School, in NYC with over 50% matriculation of its grads in the selective 10 colleges last year was not ranked, because it had less than 50 grads. If it were ranked, it would be #1. Roxbury Latin, in West Roxbury, Mass. was not ranked due to its small size. Anyway, the ranking with #of matrulants/#of grads or in percentage of grads matriculating at these 10 colleges for each high school for the year 2003 is

#2 Winsor School, Boston 22/57, 39%

#3 Trinity School, NYC, 44/120, 37%

#4 Horace Mann School, NY, 61/175, 35%

#5 Phillips Academy, Andover, Mass., 91/300, 30%

#6 Deerfield Academy, Deerfield, Mass., 60/199, 30%

#7 Nat'l Cathedral School, Washington, DC, 22/73, 30%

#8 Dalton School, NYC, 31/103, 30%

#9 Hunter College High School, NYC, 53/186, 28%

#10 St. Paul's School, Concord, NH, 41/144, 28%

#11 St. Alban's School, Washington DC, 22/81, 27%

#12 Germantown Friend's School, Philadelphia, 23/88, 26%

#13 Episcopal Academy, Merion and Devon, Pa., 27/104, 26%

#14 Lakeside School, Seattle, 28/112, 25%

#15 Phillips Exeter Academy, Exeter, NH, 79/322, 25%

#16 Pingry School, Martinsville, NJ, 32/132, 24%

#17 Milton Academy, Milton, Mass., 41/170, 24%

#18 Choate-Rosemary Hall, Wallingford, Conn., 53/224, 24%

#19 Hopkins School, New Haven, Conn., 29/123, 24%

#20 U.of Chicago Lab Schools, Chicago, 26/112, 23%

#21 Hotchkiss School, Lakeville, Conn., 34/148, 23%

#22 Noble and Greenough School, Dedham, Mass., 23/102, 23%

#23 Harvard-Westlake School, N.Hollywood, Calif., 60/268, 22%

#24 Delbarton School, Morristown, NJ, 26/118, 22%

#25 Durham Academy, Durham, NC, 21/97, 22%

The list continues in the article. T.Jefferson HS, Alexandria, Va., had 74/401 at 18% and Stuyvesant HS, NYC, had 119/719 or 17%.

To more accurately evaluate admissions from these high schools into the WSJ's selective 10 colleges, one must consider the admissions criteria and the preferential treatment given to preferred categories of students in admissions to the Ivies and elite colleges. These preferred students already have the "hooks" before they enter the elite and prestigious day preps in NYC or the Roxbury Latin School (45 grads per year), in West Roxbury, Mass., where the Dean of Harvard College is on its Board of Trustees. These are the only schools in America of such a small size that have a matriculation rate of over 50% into the 8 Ivies. In fact, Roxbury Latin School sends from 6 to 8 to Harvard alone from 45 grads during some years. Many of these schools cater to the rich, powerful, and famous elite of NYC and Boston, whose kids already have "hooks" to the Ivies (legacies, money, famous parents, athletic recruits), in addition to self-selected recruited inner-city URMs (underrepresented minorities) with even bigger "hooks" to the Ivies because of Ivy recruitment. So it is not only academics, but "hooks", that matter in Ivy admissions. It is not all about "academics". Academics alone will not do it for admission to the Ivies. You need "hooks". These students arrive in these high schools with "hooks" and more than likely, they would have been admitted to these highly selective ten colleges in the survey, no matter which prep school or high school they attended. Many of these students were pre-ordained or pre-destined.


30% of the graduating class is made up of National Merit Semifinalists at the Collegiate School in NYC. However, the number one school in America with the highest number, as well as the highest percentage, of its graduating class who are National Merit Semifinalists, is the academically elite public magnet school in Fairfax, Va., Thomas Jefferson H.S. for Science and Technology. TJHS consistently has over 150 NM Semifinalists out of 400 graduates each year. They do not send 30% to the Ivies, despite being more academically accomplished. Close to 40% of its class is Asian. This is also true of Stuyvesant H.S., the school with the second highest number of National Merits, with 50% of its class Asian American, many of whom are immigrants or offsprings of immigrants . The public magnet Hunter College H.S. in NYC also has a higher percentage of NM Semifinalists than the elite NYC day preps, but sends a smaller percentage of its grads to the 8 Ivies. These students do not have the aforementioned "hooks" that the students in the private preps have.

The small NYC elite and prestigious day prep schools include Collegiate, Trinity, Brearley, Spence, Nigthingale-Bamford, Dalton, Horace Mann, and even St. Ann's in Broolyn, which sent 40% of its 74 grads to the 8 Ivies last year. They also include the Winsor School in Mass..

A major flaw of this survey was that it only studied one year of matriculations for each high school of its grads, which means little, if a 4 or 5 year period was not surveyed to gain an overview of a trend. The Worth Magazine rankings surveyed each high school in matriculation of its grads at HYP over a 4 year period to establish its rankings of high schools as feeders into HYP.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Luigi, you neglected to point out the Columbia/Barnard factor, which in my opinion is more of a skewing factor for Stuy than the Asian factor. Since Columbia would not participate in the WSJ's survey, and since it's home turf and a clear first choice for many Stuy kids, its absence has really distorted the results. For many Asian and Moslem parents of girls, Barnard is a clear first choice. I don't think you can do any heavy duty analysis of Stuy, Bronx HS, or any of the other NYC publics vs prep schools if Columbia is not in the mix. This has nothing to do with the hooks of prep school kids vs. public school kids-- many 1st generation college parents want their kids close to home, and if you live in Queens, Columbia is a hell of a lot more prestigious than Dartmouth, ratings be damned. If you live in the Bronx and don't own a car, you're probably not hankering to have your kid stuck in New Hampshire for 4 years.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Anyone else noticing the huge amount of Northeast schools on Luigi's list? If you expanded the criteria to include Stanford, UC Berkeley, and Caltech, would it change?

Is that because New England/Mid Atlantic candidates are favoured in admissions, or do they tend to apply to Harvard in higher numbers than their west coast counterparts, and therefore have a higher percentage going to those schools surveyed?

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Regarding Dadx's list, I also found it interesting that many of those schools have higher yields than Deerfield's. Vassar must be above 10%. Just wondering.

I will agree though that there is probably a lot of application management going on there to ensure the high yields (and therefore help to preserve the advantage for future students). The money issue is probably not there as well. Harvard loses 25% of its acceptees to other schools - merit aid might be a reason for some of it.

I think that there is also another legacy factor coming into play here. Speculation, but parents who would send their kids to a private school might push them towards their alma maters more. Speculation... but if a Yale alum sends their kid to a top private school in hopes of increasing chances at getting into Yale, that parent probably isn't going to be very thrilled if the kid wants to go to NYU Tisch for theatre. (Obviously, NOTHING against the latter route!)

Finally, the prestige factor might be more important with the private school set - they might be less likely to turn to HYP for a lesser known, better fit school.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Blossom said, "Luigi, you neglected to point out the Columbia/Barnard factor, which in my opinion is more of a skewing factor for Stuy than the Asian factor."

I did not neglect this point. I referred to the "Asian factor" as well as the "Columbia/MIT/CalTech/Stanford (schools not included) factor" as well.

I know for a fact that Stuyvesant, in NYC, alone, sends as many as 40 students per year to Columbia, as its biggest feeder high school in the country. It sent 21 students to Harvard College last year, probably Harvard's biggest feeder in absolute number, but not in percentage. You can speak to Mr. Eric Furda, the Director of Admissions at Columbia, who would gladly verify this. Barnard is not considered as elite as the WSJ top ten colleges in the survey. As far as the Asian factor in these public magnets are concerned, it works against admissions for Asians into the WSJ 10 colleges used in the survey. These colleges average only about 14% Asian for racial and ethnic "diversity, a stated goal of theirs. The Asian percentage at the WSJ top ten colleges is not going up anytime soon. Remember, Suyvesant, the most elite public magnet in NYC with over 700 grads/year next to Hunter College H.S., is 50% Asian and the other half consisting of Russian Jews, Arabs and Moslems immigrants, whites, with about 3% African American and 4% Latino. Many , if not most of these students, are immigrants or sons and daughters of immigrants, many of whom are the first generation to attend college. These students do not have the "hooks" into the elite colleges like the preppies have. Bronx High School of Science is 45% Asian American. These magnets cater to mostly lower, lower middle, and middle class NYC high school students drawn from NYC with a population of 8 million inhabitants. From this pool, you get some of the most spectacular students, according to any standards used, in America, with the most stellar academic qualifications, found anywhere, including Intel Winners, International Math , Physics, and Chemistry gold medal winners, Presidental Scholars, USA Today All American Academic Team Members, accomplished classical musicians, artists and literary standouts in the national and international arenas.

I stated in my previous post, "Columbia and Stanford were not included because the researchers were unable to obtain the face books to verify the data. This definitely skewed the results, because traditional feeders to Columbia such as the major preps, Andover, Exeter, Milton and Horace Mann and the public magnets, such as Stuyvesant and Bronx High School of Science, which send double digit numbers to Columbia, did not have their grads who matriculated at Columbia last year counted in this survey. Stanford, MIT and CalTech, all top ten schools, were not used in the survey. This would also skew the survey, since a school like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in NYC and Thomsa Jefferson For Science and Technology send double digits of its grads each year to these colleges."

I also stated, [However, the number one school in America with the highest number, as well as the highest percentage, of its graduating class who are National Merit Semifinalists, is the academically elite public magnet school in Fairfax, Va., Thomas Jefferson H.S. for Science and Technology. TJHS consistently has over 150 NM Semifinalists out of 400 graduates each year. They do not send 30% to the Ivies, despite being more academically accomplished. Close to 40% of its class is Asian. This is also true of Stuyvesant H.S., the school with the second highest number of National Merits, with 50% of its class Asian American, many of whom are immigrants or offsprings of immigrants . The public magnet Hunter College H.S. in NYC also has a higher percentage of NM Semifinalists than the elite NYC day preps, but sends a smaller percentage of its grads to the 8 Ivies. These students do not have the aforementioned "hooks" that the students in the private preps have.]


The WSJ surveyed only 10 top colleges 7 Ivies and 3 elites. Obviously, if Columbia, Stanford, MIT, and CalTech or even UC Berkeley were included, the traditional feeders into these omitted colleges would even rank higher. This would mean the magnet schools of NYC such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Hunter College H.S. (the academically elite magnet in NYC with less than 200 grads/year. Has SAT I mean of 1450).


I think the feeder schools are in the N.E. simply because many of the top 10 colleges are in the N.E..

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

First of all, when we are talking about the students from any of these private schools, they are a pre selected group. Many of these schools have a less than 25% accept, which is close to that of ivies, in fact more selective than some of them. These kids have to go through an application process similar to that of college applications, complete with an SSat test (sound familiar?), transcript review, writing sample, teachers recs and interview. That alone makes these kids a group that are more likely to get into the selective schools.

On top of that, the curriculum of these schools are generally rated a 5 on a 5 point scale. The top colleges are very familiar with the rigor and thoroughness of the courses in the school. Too many schools have AP designations on course when they do not bother to teacher the material as outline on the AP syllabus. The standards are just not there. There are the Scarsdales, New Triers, and Millburns, but there are also too many schools where the grades are inflated and the subject matter taught do not meet the standards as set by the highly selective colleges.

The parents of the kids in these prep schools are well informed in general, have high standards and goals for their children's education, and the resources to provide anything needed to support their kids. They know the application process quite well and know all of the things to avoid and to do. Also the counselors at these schools are often former adcom members and can fill in any gaps in the parents knowledge and well prepare the kids through the college process, often managing it beyond what most public school GCs are able to do. Not to mention that the parents of these kids are often legacies, sometimes double legacies and generational legacies of the top schools. There is also a larger than usual number of development and celebrity parents. These all bring the numbers of admits to these private schools up higher than usual.


But for the average family who does not have ivy flowing in the bloodlines or money sitting in a trustfund, a prep school could be a disadvantage for the selective college route. First of all the grades in these schools tend to be much lower than in the public schools and the competition from classmates keener. It is really difficult to get a 3.4 in my son's school. Half the class in our public highschool has a 3.39 or above. What a difference. The courses are harder and there is no grade inflation. only 10% of the kids graduate with honors in his school which is typical of schools that have the Cum Laude Society rather than the National Honor Society. So a student who would easily get a 4.0 at the public school could be at the 3.0 level, and yet a B at Prep does not an A at Public make as many a family has discovered. Also the grades are not weighted at these prep school. Many times there are no AP designations for the courses even if most of the kids taking the course take the applicable AP test and do well on it. I feel that though you are more likely to get a thorough education with more attention at these schools, for many kids that does not mean a sure path to the more selective schools. I have seen many disappointed and hurt parents who put a lot of money into these schools with big plans for the future to find out that the college counselor feels that the college list should be primarily schools with a 40-50% accept rate for their child. A 3.0 from these schools is not going to impress the adcoms even with good test scores.

These schools do have kids taking the arts route at the Museum School at Tufts, Juilliard, Curtis, NYU Tisch, Mannes, Pratt, art institutes, foreign schools. More so than at the public schools it seems. The graduating class this year from S's school has an abundance of kids doing this, and with their parents' blessings. They also do not necessarily have a 100% college bound rate as they do encourage gap years to these children even suggesting specific activities and programs to those who just don't want to go directly to college.

My experience has been that the most anxiety fraught in the process is for kids going to a competitive public school. The families, kids and GCs seem to be wound really tight about the results of the college hunt. None of the prep schools where I have been active have been anywhere nearly as keyed up. Many top name families seem content in sending their child to Post College on Long Island or to Rutgers if that is where they want to go. The parents with that desparate look in their eyes tend to be the first generation ones who put their kids in these schools with an eye to the ivies. That is my take on the situation.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:50 pm: Edit

I think application management is the key. My kids school isn't an elite prep school -- the college admissions results are due to the tightly controlled college guidance process, which reduces competition between graduating seniors and produces a high yield for the colleges. This enables the school to establish a good relationship with a small group of top tier universities, year after year. In line with Massdad's comments, our school seems to treat EA the same as ED -- I have never heard of anyone applying to any other schools after an EA admission.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Interesting tha tthe feeders are located within the states (and sometimes cities) in which the Ivies are located. I wonder if, when you look at the specific Ivies to which the students accept admission, those specific Ivies have the vast majority of the students from their own area.

i.e. what % of the Durham Academy kids feed to Duke vs. the other Ivies.

what % of U Chi Labs school feed to U Chicago vs. other Ivies.?

I am willing ot bet that location (and, by extension, relationship) of your prep school could be one of the biggest deciding factors.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

If you go to web site below, you can see where some of these "feeder" schools send a large percentage of students. It does vary by school and location. Click on an individual school to view their profile. Scroll down to the end of the profile and you will see a category that lists "Favorite Colleges".

http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 03:35 pm: Edit

"If you go to web site below, you can see where some of these "feeder" schools send a large percentage of students. It does vary by school and location."

Unfortunately, this list or site only includes the private boarding schools. As I had mentioned before, the biggest feeders, ranked according to the percentage of the graduating class attending HYP, the Ivies and the Elites are the small private day preps, such as Collegiate, Trinity, Horace Mann, Dalton, Brearley, Spence, and Nigthingale-Bamford, in NYC and Roxbury Latin in West Roxbury, Mass, and Winsor in Boston, some of which consistently send over 50% or more of their grads each year to the 8 Ivies alone, with the rest going to the other top-ranked elite colleges. There are no other high schools in America with this kind of record. These small private day preps have even a better record of matriculation in the Ivies and elite colleges than the boarding preps.

Check out:

"Getting into the Ivy Gates" Worth Magazine, Sept. 2002

http://www.meehawl.com/Webstore/Education/Getting%20Inside%20the%20Ivy%20Gates.html#top50

for a ranking of high schools of all types, public and private as feeders into Harvard, Yale an Princeton only for another perspective.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Wow Jamimom!!! I have never agreed more with one post as I did that one!

You wrote.."These kids have to go through an application process similar to that of college applications, complete with an SSat test (sound familiar?), transcript review, writing sample, teachers recs and interview. That alone makes these kids a group that are more likely to get into the selective schools. " and it all came flooding back. I went through the admissions process with my kids at one of the schools on the WSJ list for both 9th grade and, a year later, for kindergarten. BOTH processes were downright exhausting...especially because we were applying to multiple schools at once (as in college aps)...student interviews, parent interviews, SSAT, separate exams for certain schools, writing samples, recommendations.

When you talk about the Ivy admission DISadvantages of being in one of these preps, without he celeb status or excessive wealth, you are dead on! I had to ask a few people about the AP thing to understand why I wasn't hearing about it. I was told that "all classes are taught at the AP level, so there's no need to segregate an AP polulation within the school...if they want to take APs, they can and are well prepared for them". But, nobody is pushing for the APs because the purpose of the AP is to demonstrate to the colleges that you have mastered th course at this level. At these schools (on the list) that level of mastery is already assumed. But, there has to be, at some level, a disadvantage when all kids are lumped together as "collectively bright". They have to work REALLY hard to stand out in any way...and usually won't stand out, at all, via academics. I can remember when we were applying and talking with students who said "if you're getting As now, forget it...nobody gets As here. You'll be considered a genius to keep a B average". There's no GPA, no rank, no AP classes....all making it very hard to get a real handle on what will happen in the fall. And, I suppose, this is where the parents and students have to place their ultimate trust in their GCs to steer them...and maybe this is why these schools get the results listed above....because only the GC has a real picture of what's going on and how well a particular student compares to the rest of his/her class.

And Jamimom, when you talked about there being less of a desire to get to the Ivies from many of the parents in your children's school...YES!!! This is what I see. It REALLY feels like the Ivy decision at these schools is more of a personal CHOICE than any sort of accomplishment. And, as such, is much less coveted. I was kind of surprised to see out school on the list because you hear NOTHING about competing for schools. And, when I drive in and look at the car window stickers, I see a lot more Skidmore, Colgate, Swarthmore, Wes, Vassar, Oberlin, etc....(and, of course Penn). But, I just don't sense any competition or intensity about the whole thing.

LOL ( I am chucking) I wonder if the parents who DO apply to the Ivies from our school do so in some after-hours, top-secret meeting with our GC....all too embarrassed to admit that they have such worldly desires. Shhhhhhhhhhhh....don't tell anyone, but Timmy wants to apply to *looking over shoulders* the H word.
...*GCs eyes narrow* meet me behind the big oak just after sunset and we'll discuss it.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

Momsdream, I have lived it and am living it right now. S is going to have to sing and dance his way into college and throw some "sequins" in the eyes of the adcoms when they view his transcript because "it ain't so good". His peers are doing much better at public and parochial schools. Now, he may get a .1 added to his gpa for going this prep school, but that is not going to make such a difference.

Also, it is often considered a "tacky" thing to discuss college with this crowd. I had a lunch meeting with a classmate's mom whom I had not known was a scion of a very well known family, very well to do. Not a word about college was said. Any gathering of parents of our local public school has the subject as a #1 choice. And yet, looking at the College Book in the counselors office, the school has an admissions rates to the top schools that would make any school drool.

But when you are pre selecting the kids with such thorough criteria and weeding out kids that the public schools have to take and accomodate,of course you are going to have a higher success rate. I remember one school where we were that let a child go after his third epilepsy attack. The school simply did not have the facility to take care of this condition and no responsibility to make those arrangements. They simply did not renew the contract of the child because they did not want to deal with the situation. Public schools would have to deal with it , often at great cost.

Though I have my kids in private schools, and am overall happy with the decision, I am keenly aware of the pitfalls. I also understand why these schools are more effective with the students that they have , as they can exclude whomever they want without cause. It is not even worthy of comparision of what the public schools must address vs the private schools. It is truly a personal decision to make given the circumstances of the child and family. And I see people who sink a ton of money in these privates schools who end up disappointed because they did not have right expectations. There are risks to every decision and the private school environment has its risks too. I can fill a page with them.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Jamimom said, "There are risks to every decision and the private school environment has its risks too. I can fill a page with them."

I agree, but with qualifications.

From "Getting Inside the Ivy Gates"

By Reshma Memon Yaqub September 2002, Worth Magazine

"What all parents need to know about getting their children into America's most elite colleges: Worth ranks the high schools that send the most students to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton"

Excerpts:

"We found that of the approximately 31,700 high schools nationwide (21,000 public and 10,700 private), 930 had at least four students from their 1998-2001 graduating classes who matriculated at Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. We ranked these 930 schools by the percentage of their graduating classes that each sent to the three colleges during the four-year period. The top 100 are listed on these pages."

"No. 1 on our list is Roxbury Latin School in West Roxbury, Massachusetts, which sent 21 percent of its graduating classes to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton during the four years. No. 100, St. Mark's School of Texas, in Dallas, sent more than 4 percent. To put this in context, more than half of the 930 schools sent less than 1 percent."


To Jamimom,

You have to view the public school vs. private prep discussion from the perspective of the facts quoted above. Generally, there are good public high schools and bad private preps. One thing is for sure, out of 31,700 high schools in America, both public and private, only 930 high schools in America have at least 4 students matriculated at HYP over 4 years.

Another interesting fact is that only about 400 high schools out 31,700 American high schools send more than 1% of its students to either H, Y, or P in four years.


The vast majority of American high schools never send any student to Harvard, Yale or Princeton. Even today, an elite public magnet like Stuyvesant HS in NYC, rarely sends any student to Princeton, yet it matriculates over 20 grads a year at Harvard (21 Stuy grads went to Harvard last year).

College admissions in many cases is pre-ordained or pre-determined for the applicant in admissions by the Ivy, especiacially HYP, and the small liberal arts colleges (LAC), such as Princeton, with its set of preferences in admissions it uses for "diversity'. For many years, Dean Fred Hargadon, now retired, had the last word on each admitted student and Stuyvesant grads were not on its "preferred" list, although many of these rejected grads later matriculated at Harvard, Yale, and even Stanford. In fact Princeton did not admit any Stuy grad for years. This may change with Princeton's new admissions Dean. This lack of admissions for Stuy grads may be due directly to Princeton's desire for "more geograghic" diversity by denying NYC applicants from the magnet high schools such as Stuy and Bronx Science, which were predominately Jewish, and now Asian American. These rejected students were academically spectacular and outstanding in every respect.

College admissions to HYP, the Ivies and the Elites was never fair and many of the factors for admission are beyond the applicants control.

So, if one is at least considering HYP, one must at least attend one of the 790 high schools, public school or private prep, that sends at least one student to HYP a year, or the 400 high schools in America that sends more than 1% of its students over a four year period to either H, Y, or P. If you don't go to one of these schools, public or private, your chances are nil or zero in matriculating at HYP.

By Anngold (Anngold) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

NYmom - I don't think you are right about public school kids applying to 10-12 colleges except in my daughter's case. She goes to a public school with 486 in the senior class and her guidance counselor told me most of the kids apply to 2-3 schools. He told me this because he thought my daughter applying to 12 schools was ridiculous. We had very valid reasons for doing so and she was accepted at 10, waitlisted at 1 (8th choice), and rejected at one (9th choice). She's an IB student and in the top ten percent of her class.

Massdad - Your generalization about the interviews at public schools is off-base. My daughter interviewed with several top colleges in a private interview at her public high school and it was always with one of the fulltime admissions staff. She did not have any group interviews. As a matter of fact the only group interviews at her school were for our two large state schools.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:12 pm: Edit

I guess Massdad was referring to the discrepancy in the top schools' visit schedules. The head of admissions for 3 ivies visited S's private school. None for the local public school that has 4 times the number of kids and is a well integrated school both ethnically and socio-economically.

Many of the kids in S's school got in ED and only applied to one school. I would say as many as 20%. Even more got in EA but continued to explore their options. So the average number is deceptive given these statistics. If you get in EA at Yale, you are not going to apply to your safety schools--just rival ivies, unless you are going for aid which very few from this school need to do.

Most kids do not apply to that many colleges. Those that do tend to be very keyed into the college admissions scene or have a parent or mentor who is, and do not get in ED or EA. Most of the kids that I see do apply to 10-12 colleges and they do have a good reason to do so. However, I do see kids who do it for trophy hunting purposes as well, I am afraid.

By Dadx (Dadx) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Well, I'll nudge the discussion back towards my original observation with the further observation that, you would think that the yield you would experience from well prepared, already highly qualified students would be below the average, but at Deerfield, it appears to be above.

I wonder if the counselors actually manage the application process so that the colleges don't waste admissions on a kid who is going to go to Dartmouth anyway (for example).

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:35 pm: Edit

"I guess Massdad was referring to the discrepancy in the top schools' visit schedules. The head of admissions for 3 ivies visited S's private school. None for the local public school that has 4 times the number of kids and is a well integrated school both ethnically and socio-economically."

The top feeder into HYP on the Worth Magazine list is Roxbury Latin, in West Roxbury, Mass., usually with a graduating class of around 45 a year. The Dean of Harvard College is the Head of the Board of Trustees at Roxbury Latin. Roxbury Latin sends as many as 6 to 8 grads out of only 45 grads in some years to Harvard. There is no need to say more. In many of the elite preps, the admissions director of the Ivy or elite college make a personal appearance just for college info sessions. During one Parent's Weekend at Andover, the Admissions Dean at Princeton, Amherst and Colgate appearred together just for the info session for Andover parents. These Admissions Deans do the same for the other elite preps. Also, college interviews are held on the premises of the elite preps.

By Nymom (Nymom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Dadx - it's more than a case of not wasting admissions on kids who won't attend -- the practice of limiting applications reduces competition between graduating seniors. Eg, in our school, 10 might apply ED to ivy #1, which traditionally takes 8-10 per year; 4 might apply to ivy #2, which takes 3-4; and so on. There's no overlap, because everyone applies ED or EA, and in a good year, everyone is accepted to their first choice (or the GCs first choice for them, at any rate). Top tier non-ivies might receive 10 -15 applications per year, and again, it's not unusual for a large percentage to be admitted. As far as interviews, I don't know anyone who actually interviewed at the school, but the GC does meet with the college reps when they visit the school, to review the applications of students who are applying to their colleges.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Did that WSJ article cite a "Best Buy" prep school? My son came home with word that it had and his was listed as #1. I am wondering if this is just "whisper down the lane" syndrome. The Journal doesn't strike me as the sort of publication that would rate a "best buy".

By Garland (Garland) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Anngold, I believe that if Massdad's generalization is off-base, it is more in the other direction. It's nice that your D got to interview privately with the admissions folks from top schools at her HS. However, not one of them has ever set foot in my kids' HS, not even for large group sessions. I think that this is the reality for most high schools in this country, though you can't tell from reading this board.

Momsdream: Funny description about how rich, privileged prep school people don't sweat like the rest of us great unwashed. It would be sooo unseemly. They "choose"; the rest of us "covet." You learn something about yourself every day.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Garland-

You can turn it any way you want. I cited my observation as it was.

Do you NOT think the general population in the Northeast covets an Ivy education?

And, if a school that is ranked in the top 25 of Ivy feeders in the country has a majority population of student who choose not to apply to an Ivy, regardless of ability/stats, wouldn't that be a choice?

Sometimes things just are what they are.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Oh, and one more thing....

not all prep school people are rich and privledged.....

Many of us drive old cars an live in modest homes just so that our kids can have the best education possible. Many of US comiserate ovr how we'll pay the next tuition bill. Some of us have to call the school and ask for extensions, payment plans, HELP! So, I think the generalization about people from prep schools is innacurate.

There, now you learned something else today.

By Wlrsqtr (Wlrsqtr) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Kids from top prep schools clearly have an advantage. However some advantages are more unfair/annoying than others. For example an article in the Wasingtonian a couple of months ago interviwed the head of counseling at National Cathedral School in DC. One statement she made annoyed me more than any other because it showed the complicity of the top colleges - she stated that colleges "know" that any student from that applies to a college early will attend even if it is non-binding EA. This she clearly indicates helps with admission where NCS has a much greater than average rate of admission (lots of other reason to not the least of which is Senators for parents). If a college wants to ensure all early students attend they should be ED. If they are EA they are telling all those other students from less connected schools that it is okay ifthey haven' made up their minds where to attend. Giving an advnatage to a kid becaue they apply early to an EA school but coulselor promises they will attend is hugely unfair to other students and is an advantage that requires the complicity of colleges to the point of being a big lie to other students.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit

To Momsdream, you asked, "Did that WSJ article cite a "Best Buy" prep school? My son came home with word that it had and his was listed as #1."

They did this by separating the private preps, both boarding and day, from the public schools, magnet and non-magnet. The WSJ did not rank the best "best buy" in the private private preps, but only checked-off ten private preps as best buys. This group included, St. Ann's, Brooklyn (#1 feeder , a private day prep), Winsor, Boston, Trinity, NYC, Horace Mann, Riverdale, NY, Nat'l Catherdral, Washington, D.C., Germantown Friends, Phila., Episcopal, Devon, Pa., Lakeside, Seattle ranked in descending order as private feeders. This group only included day preps, eliminating the extra costs of boarding preps. They give the best "bang for the dollar" with the highest matriculation rates in the WSJ Selective 10 colleges.

Of course, the public feeders, both non-magnet and magnet schools, have no tuition, and cost nothing except for the local property taxes of the district that supports these schools, which in some cases are considerable. However, the #9 feeder on the WSJ list is the public magnet Hunter College High School, in NYC, with 53 grads out of 186 or 28% matriculation in WSJ's Selective 10 colleges. This mariculation rate for Hunter College HS is better than all the schools ranked below #9 on the list that I posted, which includes the costly elite boarding preps (with tuition, board, and fees up to 32K to 35k a year). Hunter College HS, with no tuition costs as a public magnet school, does better as a feeder into the Ivies and Elites than St. Paul's, Exeter, Milton, Choate and Lawrenville, which all costs in excess of 32k a year.

The highest ranked feeder schools which are magnets and public schools are #1 Hunter College HS , #2 Thomas Jefferson HS for Science and Technolgy, Alexandria, Va., #3 Stuyvesant HS, NYC. The other highest ranked public school feeders in descending order include Ithaca HS, NY, Scarsdale HS, NY, Roslyn HS, Roslyn Heights, NY, Horace Greely HS, Chappaqua, NY, Millburn HS, Millburn, NJ, Boston Latin, Boston, Mass., Princeton HS, Princetown, NJ, etc.. Further down on the list is Palo Alto HS, Palo Alto, Calif., Greenwich HS, Greenwich, Conn., Newton North HS, Newtonville, Mass., New Trier HS, Winneka, Ill., and Evanton Township HS, Evanston, Ill..

Many of these public high school feeders are in the most affluent suburbs of major cities in America or near the most elite universities in America such as the Ivies, U.of Chicago, Northwestern, Stanford, and MIT. These public schools have zero costs in tuition, except for the cost of high property taxes of the affluent towns which support them (except in Calif.). These property taxes can average between 10k to 40k per year in the most affluent communities of the N.E..

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

It is unfair when any info outside of that produced by child is used because so much depends on the communications skills and history of the person provideing it. That is where prep schools do have an advantage. Because the college counselors of many of these prep schools have also worked in admissions of the various colleges, they know each other and know what they want in the admissions offices. A lot of simple courtesies that are often disregarded in many public schools are observed in these schools. Some of the GCs just do not put the time into the rec forms and are less than honest. The school info sheets are not accurate. And though this is not limited to the public schools, there are simply so many more public schools that it is impossible for these adcoms to really get to know them all. And all private schools are not created equally. There are some that are not on the "good list" with adcoms as well.

But I do want to say, that despite all of the advantages listed for these private schools with high admit rates for the selective colleges, none of them will do you any good if it does not pertain to your particular child's situation. If your child is a non legacy, non special situation, 3.0 student (very typical gpa), with a 1370 SAT (average SAT at many of these schools), don't think your kid is getting into Princeton even if he is going to the school with the highest admit rate to Princeton in the country. It just ain't gonna happen.

Also if you are looking for financial or merit aid, these schools can be unhelpful. Many do not offer financial aid seminars which all of the public and parochial schools that I know do. And with your child's deflated, unweighted gpa, the likelihood of getting merit aid is going to be low. These kids have a lot of trouble convincing ROTC and local scholarship agencies that their 3.3 is as good as the public schools weighted 4.0. I have seen this time and again. Also the lack of AP designation for courses can hurt along with the refusal to give class rank paired with that low gpa.

It is not an admissions panacea, believe me. On the other hand, if your kid can pull a top 10% in such a school, indicated by the Cum Laude Society and high SATs, they will have a better chance than someone from the local highschool most of the time. Looking at S's yearbooks and spotting those kids in the Cum Laude Society, I found that every last one of them got into a highly selective school. But there are many among the 90% who may have been a top student in his public or parochial school that did not do as well in college picks. Believe me , I see the disappointed parents each year.

There are also disadvantages in having your school counselors in such close contact with your colleges. I know one young lady who was waitlisted at a school where she should have been a shoo-in. The parents were alarmed, and talked to the school counselor who let it out that she would be admitted there if it came down to it but apparently there was some collusion where info was given that the particular school was not the girl's top choice and she was likely to get into one of the preferred choices. I did not feel it was appropriate to give that info to a college about a student. Many times it can be your kid that is trading card that gets thrown out of the deck to get some other kid in when the school counselor is discussing app from that school and comparing the kids on the list. This type of collusion should not exist, but it does. It sounds great for the kid benefiting from it, but there are kids who are hurt by it as well. The confidentiality between student and school counselor is compromised, in my opinion. So, it is not always beneficial having the school counselor whispering in the adcom's ears. You never know what they are saying.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit

To Jamimom,

I don't disagree with your post above. Again, I have already mentioned the "hooks", that the students of the elite preps already have before they attend these private preps. These "hooks", afford the private prep school college applicant to the Ivies and Elites tremendous advantages, no matter where they attend school, even Podunk Academy. These hooks include the legacy, rich and famous VIP, recruited athlete in prep sports such as lacrosse, field hockey, squash, tennis, crew, ice hockey, and even football and basketball on the prep level which the Ivies favor most, and the recruited URM preferences that the Ivies and Elites give in admissions. There are not too many URMs in your many affluent suburban high schools or the elite NYC public magnets which require the passing of exams for entrance. Academics, GPAs and class rank matter the least (at least when they do not fall below a minimum level) when these preferences are used in admissions. Many of these private prep students are already PRE-SELECTED by these private preps in admission according to the same preferences that the Ivies and Elites use for admission.


BTW, not all students with these hooks or preferences are "rich". Andover and Exeter have such diversity in their clases that 30 to 40% of its students are on financial aid, and there are Financial Aid Sessions for college during each College Info Session given in these academies. Even the Hotchkiss School, in Lakeville, Conn., traditionally considered a "top ten" boarding prep and previous Yale feeder, founded solely for this purpose, has increased its financial aid to 35% of its students. The demograghics of these elite boarding preps have changed to reflect that of the Ivies.


Of course, there are also the students without the hooks, and these students must be admitted as "academic admits" and compete with a group of students who are academically outstanding. This would require the academic admit to be in the Cum Laude society or more to stand out among a group of already academically stellar students in his class. For the student without the hooks, being in a private prep may be a disadvantage because he may not perform at the top of his class, whereas if he were in a regular public, he would be on top, where he can stand out and be noticed.

But even the student without the "hooks" or the pure academic admit may still have some advantages in attending a private elite prep, simply because these schools have the most experienced college counseling staffs with the most lines of comunication and they are the most well-known to the adcoms. In the case of Saint Ann's School in Brooklyn, the #1 ranked feeder school in the nation by the WSJ, the Headmaster, Stanley Bosworth, personally advocates for his group of students which he considers his top candidates for the Ivies and Elites by bringing them on a tour of the admissions offices of these schools. One cannot have a better advocate for admission directly with the adcom and admission director than the Headmaster introducing you as the Saint Ann's best each year. Saint Ann's School consistently send over 10 students to Brown and almost an equal number to Yale out of about 75 grads per year. It sent 7 to Princeton last year with a 100% yield. This is from a school with only 74 grads last year. That's why it was ranked as the #1 feeder in the WSJ article. This school has no grades or class ranks. It is considred "artsy" and innovative and admits its students in the lower school based on IQ testing for gifted children. It evaluates its students by written evaluations and narratives only. Jennifer Connelly, a Yale graduate, who played the wife of John Nash, in the movie, "A Beautiful Mind" is a graduate of Saint Ann's School..

I also know from personal experience

By Garland (Garland) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Momsdream:

>>Do you NOT think the general population in the Northeast covets an Ivy education?

No. I don't. Only about 5 out of 400 kids in my son's school applied to one, and I think only one applied to more than one (two). They "chose" schools they wanted to attend. There's a whole world out there where lots of people couldn't name the Ivies...and that's okay.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit

Well, as an example, I think Harvard gets applications from students at 8000 different high schools around the country and the world, and it admits students from about 800 to 900 of these schools, if I remember correctly. You must also remember that there are over 31,000 high schools in America. I don't know where the applicants come from, but I presume they come disproprtionately from the Northeastern, and Mid-Atlantic states, but Harvard (or any Ivy) tries to attain geographic diversity by favoring applicants from states which are least represented in the student body.

The geographic representation of the student body can be found on any of the Ivies' websites.

By Ilovecc (Ilovecc) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Bye bye
Mod TRinity

By Thegreatone (Thegreatone) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Edited

By Luigi (Luigi) on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:42 pm: Edit

Does anyone know of a college, other than Harvard, the rest of the Ivies, or some of the national elite research universities, that get applications from graduates of 8000 different high schools from around the country and the world?

Obviously, not everyone is interested in applying to Harvard, Yale and Princeton, or the rest of the 8 Ivies, but they receive the most applications from graduates from the highest number of secondary schools from almost everywhere than any other school. Herein, lies the strength of the Ivies' student bodies. Not many schools, if any, can make this claim. These schools are national and international in scope in every respect, including its student bodies.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit

Ah, but St Ann's is an anomoly in its grading or rather non grading system. Most of the prep schools have a very rigid grading system. And on a very traditional scale. It takes about 2 minutes to assess a transcript for S's school. It is as clear as a bell the way it is laid out. And very few schools have a headmaster who personally delivers the apps. It will be interesting what will happen next year when Mr. Bosworth retires or when the impact of this publicity come to light.

However, again, St Anne's screening process makes it no big surprise that so many kids are making it to the selective schools. It is ultraselective itself.

S's school does not offer many scholarships for the general population--the middle class crowd. No interest loans are offered, but that is a dangerous undertaking if there are other children in the family and if you are going to need aid for college. As I mentioned before, these schools seem to me a bit short it helping kids get aid of any kind for college. Sometimes they outsource financial aid counseling for those who need it. Sometimes they leave it entirely up to the family. Also, I will tell you that there are several kids on full aid through programs like ABC or Prep for Prep and those kids do extremely well in their college choices AND financial aid but I don't know how much of the support comes from that referring agency.

I am a great advocate of these schools. I have placed my children in them many times going through the horrendous process each time we moved. I am looking at paying $50K to one of these schools next year for two kids and I have posted long posts extolling the virtues of these schools. But I also want parents to know that there are also drawbacks. Every year I meet some fresh faced optimistic middle income parent who is breaking the family bank and taking out loans to put their oldest in one of these schools to give the kids a better shot at Harvard. And midway through, they are really beat when they realize that Muhlenberg is more the kid's speed with his average SAT (for the school) and average gpa. At their public school the kid just might have excelled and those funds could have been directed towards an intense SAT tutoring course or towards more specialized ECs. Because one other disadvantage of these schools is that they are very jealous of the student and family's time. They want you all of the time. You can live at that school even as a day student. S does not get home until close to 10 pm most nights as he always has a music or drama production he is rehearsing and is a tri athlete. But every parent will tell you that you live and breathe the school because it is relentless in opportunities and events for you to participate. I resist more than others because of distance and many other small children who are not in that school, but there are families who spend many hours working for the school.

I am just warning those who just look at those statistics given by the WSJ and think that putting their child in these schools give them an automatic boost to certain college. There is a lot that goes into those statistics, and I will tell anyone that going into debt for these schools is a bad idea given the financial aid opportunities later. Your EFC ain't gonna take into account the $50-100K borrowed for prep school. And you could be even further behind the financial eight ball than ever.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

Prep school does not gurantee anyone to go to elite colleges. If I may ask how many kids who are outside of prep school are in US math or physics or chemistry olympiad teams and yet are varisty athelete. Then they are writing for school newspaper. Then on top of it practcing for a school play six days a week for two hours a day or busy with orchestras or chorus. They are ranked on debate teams. Yet agian kids are taking 3 to 4 APs or beyond AP courses. Even though kids score perfect on APs, and are in top perecntile in school yet their grade will never cross 3.5 beacuse raely anybody cross it. This is not easy, it is sheer volume of quality work. This is not being busy for the sake of being busy. This work require sometime missing dinners, sometime sleeping less. Now these kids drives other kids to do the same by rest of prep school kids. Thus increasing the level of competition among kids and making themselves and others better.

By Songman (Songman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:02 am: Edit

Fascinating board......I agree with all of you. A private school can help. At my son's school the GC fights for the top students and meets with AD COM people. They visit the school and hold sessions for the parents. HOWEVER you must have a motivated student also for this to work. While we do not regret that we sacrificed for our son to attend private high school and he is a heck of a lot smarter than his parents are:so in a way we achieved our goal. It is true that some of us parents thought, like the students that post on this board, "if only he could get into a good school!' whatever that is? We got swept up in all of this without sitting back and thinking through this logically.....Now he has been accepted to some fine schools that we can't afford and he will go to a state school and get a good education because he learned a lesson also about competition. He has even said "hey what happened to the world my grammar school teacher said was inclusionary, where everyone is a winner?"

We will be wiser next time...and I agree with MOMSDREAM when she said "Oh, and one more thing....

not all prep school people are rich and privledged.....

Many of us drive old cars an live in modest homes just so that our kids can have the best education possible. Many of US comiserate over how we'll pay the next tuition bill. Some of us have to call the school and ask for extensions, payment plans, HELP! So, I think the generalization about people from prep schools is innacurate.

I agree,40% of my son's private school is on financial aid from the school endowment...we are all just trying to do the right thing for our kids and to pull ourselves up from the bottom of the ladder or to the next rung. Is this so wrong? Otherwise we might as well be come socialistic...thanks to all for the insight

By Luigi (Luigi) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

To Jamimom:

Again, I do not disgree with you, but only qualifying the points you made. Again, there are "good" public schools and "bad" prep schools. One just cannot generalize and each student's needs must be considered, as you surely did when you decided to place your 2 children into one of these day preps. Here again, you must differentiate between the day student experience from the boarding student experience in these preps. At the boarding preps, such as Andover, Exeter, Groton and St. Paul's, it is the "experience" that is invaluable, and not the college matric list. You cannot put a price on it and it is definitely not for everyone. This boarding experience completely prepares the student for his ensuing years in college in a way that no other high school experience is able to do. You must must differentiate between the top ten to twenty elite preps (both boarding and day) from the hundreds of other private preps.

You must different between the public school feeders (both magnet and non-magments of affluent Scarsdale, Chappaqua, Millburn, etc.) from the average high school in Oskosh. The choice between these schools is all RELATIVE with many variables to consider. In many cases, it is well worth the price, and in many cases it is not worth it. The pros and cons have been stated for each side of this discussion, starting with the higher yield of admits, as well a higher admit rates into the most selective colleges from these feeder schools, both public and private.

As an example, take this country's biggest public magnet feeder schools such as Hunter College HS, NYC, T.Jefferson for Science, Va., and Stuyvesant HS, NYC. They cost nothing in tuition and their seniors have average SAT I scores from 1400 to 1450 (TJHS and HUNTER HS), higher than Andover and Exeter's seniors with 1370 averages. The public magnets' grads have more awards of national recognition, such as Intels, and Seimans-Westhinghouse winners, Presidential Scholars, National Merit Scholars, International Math, Physics, and Chemistry Olympiads medals, members of the USA Today All American Academic Teams, and nationally and internationally recognized classical musicians and literary stars, yet they still have a lower matriculation rate than some of the elite preps, not withstanding the aforementioned "hooks". For these academically superior and talented students, the choice of an elite prep is a toss-up. There are pros and cons. The most glaring con is the cost of the privates. But for the academically average recruited athlete, recruited URM or even the rich and famous VIP, there is definitely a distinct advantage in attending one of these elite preps.

Please click on this site for profiles of the elite NYC day preps, some of the biggest feeders into the Ivies and elite colleges:


http://www.abacusguide.com/NY%20private%20schools%20directory.htm


BTW, Saint Ann's Headmaster is being replced by
Larry Weiss who holds three degrees from Columbia University: an AB in Oriental Studies (1971), and a Masters and PhD in Political Science. He also has a certificate in U.S.-East Asia Relations from Columbia’s East Asian Institute. Dr. Weiss has been head of the Upper Division of the Horace Mann School for the past seven years. Prior to that (1990-1997), he was the Director of the Chinese Studies Program at Sidwell Friends School in Washington, D.C. During that time he also served as a Senior Scholar in Residence at the School of International Service of American University. Earlier in his career he was President of Friends World College, administering multiple campuses in various countries, and before that was college counselor and a history teacher at Brooklyn Friends School.

He intends to run Saint Ann's School with the same philosophy and manner as Mr. Bosworth did.
He was head of Horace Mann's upper school, another elite day school in NY. There seems to be an incestuous relationship between the powers to be at all these schools, especially the NYC day preps which are the BIGGEST FEEDERS into the Ivies in terms of matric rates. They are bigger feeders than any other schools in the country, including the elite top ten boarding preps, Andover and Exeter.

Also, there are feeder schools or nurseries into the top NYC k-8 nd k-12 day preps. These schools are the most selective in the country, including the nursery schools.

By Songman (Songman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

I meant to say.....40% of the students at my son's private school are on some form of financial aid.......we received no aid ,but didn't ask either...now that we asked for some with the private colleges they are basically telling us/FAFSA that we are wealthy.oh well

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Luigi, as I have said before, I felt that it was worth the money and trouble to put my children in these schools. I am just qualifying that it is not for ALL families. My son is in one of these boarding schools as a Day student because I do not believe the boarding experience would have benefited him. In fact it would have been a problem, I am sure as it was for his older brother who boarded and had issues. The third son, I may permit to board after freshman year. Even this "experience" that you feel is so valuable can be of great detriment to some kids. I've known some kids who just could not handle it and were not screened out even through these rigorous application processes and it did unfortunately negatively impact their lives in many ways for the next several years in addition to putting stress on the families in a way that only a parent can imagine.

I know Mr. Weiss personally, and was heavily involved with Horace Mann as I lived in lower Westchester county several years ago. What I said I still hold to regarding St Annes.

I am not targetting my comments to those who have students who are potential athletic recruits, gifted URMS, legacies or celebrities. Those groups have a hook that could serve them well regardless of where they go to school or if they go to school at all. I am more concerned about those families who are second mortgaging the house or taking one of those low or no interest loans to pay for one of these educations without a clear picture of what the downsides may be for their kids. I am a parent volunteer who provides hospitality for those accepted families, and I have to bite my tongue sometimes when I hear some of the mis perceptions some of these people have about what they are going to get from the school. They also have huge misperceptions on what their students are likely to get from colleges as well. They are justifiably very proud that their child who just went through the difficult gauntlet of the private school admissions process was offered a seat in an elite school, and feel that they are in first class for their choice of HPY with scholarship money. Big misperception. And they do not want you raining on their parade.

My kids went to the NY day preps so I know all about the "feeder systems". We lived close enough to Bronxville and Scarsdale, actually visited both highschools to make a determination whether it would be worth our money to buy in these districts to avail ourselves of great education they offer. It was a resounding "no". We have too many different types of kids for any one system to handle, and had to hand pick the schools to meet the needs and desires of each child. It was not worth the tax money and housing costs of those school districts for us. Very different situation for other families.

We put one of our sons who had a disasterous transcript from one of those boarding preps into a catholic schools that would never make one of your feeder lists. He pulled straight A's, was an AP stud and did far better than his test score peers at his old school much to many of their parents' dismay. And it was a heck of a lot cheaper, I can tell you. His best friend who was kicked out of one of these BIGGEST FEEDER to the ivies, went to Harvard despite what happened, again with straight high 90's at an "inferior" school and with top test scores. His parents doubt greatly he would have done as well had he remained at the prep school something they begged to have happen at the time he was kicked out.

I have spent over 18 years dealing with these schools with my kids and working at them before that. I feel that they provide wonderful opportunities and one size fit all type of experiences for many kids--but there are many who should really rethink the decision. My closest friend has yet to financially recover from paying for 4 years of Choate Rosemary Hall from her daughter who then went to a local college because her coffers were empty and the colleges that accepted her would not give her a dime--and I might add my friend, a seasoned New YOrker from a feeder school herself was devastingly disappointed at the colleges that accepted her. She was waitlisted at all of her top choices, waitlist was a courtesy I am sure to the counselors of her prestigious school. Was it worth it? Not to my friend. And when I asked the daughter, she said it was truly a big mistake--she would have much rather had that money to go away to a private college, as much as she loved her experience at Choate. She is now stuck in a midwestern city with a degree from a local state school that was a commuter school and is really adrift because she did not go to highschool there, and she worked her way through college. She will go to law school most likely the same way as she has been waitlisted to all of her first choice law schools out of this city. That expenditure on one of the most elite schools really limited this young lady's choices. And I have seen this happen more often than I like. And I warned my friend before and as this was unrolling!!

I am also very familiar with Bronx Science and Stuy. Many of the brightest minds in NYC go to these schools. The biggest disadvantage those kids have who go to the schools is that many of their parents do not have the wherewithal and money to help them get into the top schools. Many too believe in the myth that just because their son made it into these prestigious schools that the HPYS and top ITs are going to be begging them to attend with $$$ offered. As those of us on these boards know, very unlikely. Many own small businesses and do not do their accounting properly and end up qualifying for no financial aid though they may indeed be unable to pay for a private college without severely compromising the rest of the family's future. I worked with some of these families, and it made my heart ache what the misperceptions were about these schools. For I do believe that a rigorous public school probably makes it particularly tough for an above average achiever who is not way up in the top to make a good showing. Saw some kids pull C's that devastated the family, and of course put them out of the running for some of the top schools. There are definitely disadvantages going to these very tough schools. You really have to match the child to the school. Many people are in disbelief that I am paying money to send my kids to a private school or parochial school that is not rated as highly as my public school. I am doing so because it is the best environment for the particular child. Every child and family will not do better at any given school.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Songman, I had several kids in one of these schools that claim 50% of the students receive financial aid. When I served on the board, I found out that the 50% included kids getting $1000 or $2000 special stipends and my own kids who got sibling discounts as do many kids at that school. So that 40% figure can be deceptive. My friend had a daughter waitlisted at Choate and was told that the reason she was waitlisted was because they had run out of aid money. She cleared the waitlist when my friend made the decision to pay the full freight which she did for 4 years. Which in addition to poor investment results wiped out her divorce settlement which should have helped her get on with life. She is still paying the financial consequences of that decision. The girl has never gotten a B except at Choate , and would bet she would have gotten into many schools where she was waitlisted with her lacklustre transcript from there. Not that it would have mattered because there is no more money available for college and she had to work her way through a local primarily commuter school. Which she successfully did with a 4.0, summa cum laude and was awarded phi betta kappy in 3 years.

Most of the kids at S's prep school are middle class. But there are far more truly wealthy there than at the public school and far fewer seriously financially disadvantaged there than our suburban public school. The school, in fact, is seriously having issues about financial aid and have accepted several kids who are siblings and absolutely need aid to go there but have had to put these kids on a financial waitlist because of a fund shortage. This is not an isolated case; many other private schools are having that issue. They cannot easily just turn down a legacy who has the stats but needs aid as they can an unrelated applicant so the financial situation is laid out for those to see. The school has made commitment to fully funding some programs for gifted inner city kids, and that leaves little left for others even legacies. Again, this is an inside scoop that I have seen. Some of these financial waitlist kids have spectacular stats--there just is not the money. I wish I could do something....

Out of curiousity, did your child's school have programs or counseling regarding financial or merit aid for college? I am finding that this is a major shortcoming at some of these prep schools. I hope your son enjoys college where ever he may go and that the first class education he got in highschool will benefit him in college.

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Jamimom you are right on target:

Sending kids to Andover, Exteter, Milton, Groton for getting admission in aiming for HYP is not the best idea. My kids and I have discussed this issue in length. My one kids has decided that even though being a math scince person he do not want to be in tech field. He rather be involved in investment banking and later on politics, thus he is focusing on college that will provide him financial aid and do not have to pay very little to college. Thus no college is off the list. His highest possible GPAs in present school, SATs, olympiad, theater, music, varsity athelete, newspaper and yes a nice $150,000 fin aid cum various scholarship garnts (he earned it and spent it all) during high school will allow him to bargain. Hopefully the similar financial aid will happen in college in coming future.

By Songman (Songman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Thanks Jamimom good thoughts......It is such a pleasure to hear some realistic feedback..you are a wise person....My son's private high school school was weak on counseling for financial aid. They had a financial aid night and my wife was in the hospital so we did not attend . The counselor was ok at the school. She tried her best, but I wish we would have known that the private colleges spend more of their merit money on the ED applicants or at least commit more of the money on the sure bets. This seems to be the case. And why not if you are Kenyon College for e.g. and you have a 50% acceptance rate with a large applicant pool that fall off as they choose other schools you may want to reward the kids that picked your college as a first round choice. When we mentioned ED to my son he would not hear of it......but there are so many other factors at play here also. He got accepted to Kenyon, Skidmore, Wheaton,MA (they offered merit $) and UMASS/AMherst honors program (the only school we can afford without forcing the family to dine on ramen soup everynight! Skidmore and Kenyon are $42,000 a year-YIKES!. We can only meet 25,000 and that is pushing it (ramen soup every other night).Wheaton gave $8,000 a year. And UMASS/Amherst he likes but thinks he will get lost there? They have 22,000 students attending..Skidmore is his top choice and he doesn't want to take loans.But after visiting Skidmore on monday he may change his mind...and would he be even eligible for loans in his name that are payable after he graduates?. The long and the short of it is that his sister (7th grade) will go to college also and we have to plan for her too!Is it fair to her that we spend all our cash flow? we have no assets and borrowing equity in a house is not realistic as you have to have the income to pay the monthly payment..any thoughts?

By Bostonbound (Bostonbound) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Jamimom?
I've been reading these posts with a great deal of interest. So much of what you and others write resonates with our own experience. There is no one-size-fits-all solution! It's a shame this topic so often disintegrates with folks feeling very defensive about the decisions they've made are entitled to make-- for their own children.

You've mentioned several times that you've moved a lot. I wondered if you had any tips on how to quickly scope out the local public school scene from a distance. I've been able to glean some information about prep schools from this board. We did the applications, revisits, etc. and we've sent off a deposit. Writing that check made me nervous! When I added up the college tuition and the prep school tuition, I had to sit down!! I called my husband who was driving between cities and asked, "Ok. Tell me again, how are we going to pay for all of this?" It's numbing. Up until now I could do it more easily because I felt I understood what we were choosing. Now we're making very expensive decisions about an unknown situation. The public school statistics were disappointing, so we decided to stick to prep, in part because our kid had excelled and it seemed unfair to ask her give it up because we are moving. Of course, the time frame for applying to these schools forced our hand a lot sooner than we would have liked.

Any suggestions? Anyone?

By Luigi (Luigi) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Jamimom said, "Out of curiousity, did your child's school have programs or counseling regarding financial or merit aid for college? I am finding that this is a major shortcoming at some of these prep schools. I hope your son enjoys college where ever he may go and that the first class education he got in highschool will benefit him in college."

Again, Jamimom, you are referring to your own son's particular day prep, as an anecdotal example. This example of yours is not representative of the most wealthy top ten boarding preps in America, such as Andover and Exeter which have the largest endowments in absolute dollars, and St. Paul's and the Groton School, which have the largest endowment dollars per student, even larger than most major universities on a per student basis. Both Andover and Exeter each have endowments of close to $500 million. You just cannot compare this type of money to a school that only has a $25 million endowment, no matter what its size is. Andover provides need-based scholarships for over 35% of its students, as does Exeter.

You also used Choate as an example, which is a bad example in providing scholarships for students in need, because it is the poorest sibling in the family of the the "top ten" boarding preps, simply because it has one of the lowest endowment dollars per student of all of the other top schools. Choate is simply unable to provide need based scholarships. Andover and Exeter provide these scholarships and is need blind. Correct me if I am wrong. Again, you cannot use anecdotal evidence to generalize.

BTW, this is also the case from within the 8 Ivy Schools. Brown, the poor sibling of the Ivies, was not able to provide need based money to all of its students and about 10% of its admits who needed money were not given it. Obviously, the prudent ones chose not to matriculalate. One of the stated goals of Ruth Simmoms, after becoming President of Brown, was to make Brown completely need-blind for its admits. Its situation was analogous to Choate's because it was not need-blind.


I think Andover and Exeter is almost or completely need-blind. Jamimom, I don't know which prep school your son attends, but which category does his school fall into? Is it a school with several hundred million dollars or 25 million dollars in endowment. You have to compare apples to apples, not to oranges.

At Andover, after each College Info Session with admissions directors from the most selective colleges and universities during Parent's Weekend each year, there is a Financial Aid Info Session immediately afterwards given by the College Counseling staff at Andover and it is well attended in the Tang Auditorium, filled to capacity, in George Washington Hall.

By Cubfan (Cubfan) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit

jamimom,
I posted this question on the high school forum. If you had to choose only one experience,top prep like exeter, hotchkiss, deerfield,etc or hyp for college, which would you choose and why? It seems to me that a top prep is an unmatched experience compared to regular high school while I don't believe the hyp experience versus many many lac's or other universities could be that different. Obviously with no experience at either, it is just my opinion. This seems to be the most aware thread on this topic and I would really like some opinions. many thanks.

By Bostonbound (Bostonbound) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Hey, Songman. I don't think you should be kicking yourself over the what-if-he'd-gone ED situation. Our older daughter had her heart set on a particular school and she applied ED. We spent more time trying to prepare her for the disappointment (the odds are so daunting!) than we did thinking about how to pay for it. She got in--- no aid!!

As far as your daughter goes, you have a little time on your side. Have you ever looked at "How to Pay For College without Going Broke?" It might be helpful in being strategic about your daughter's college funding.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Bostonbound:

It seems that you have already decided to send your child to a prep school rather than to a public school. Am I right?

If not, I would suggest that looking at average statistics for a school can be misleading. For example, our high school, which is no model of excellence, has below national level SAT scores. And yet, our top 60% outperform the national average. The school average is dragged down by the fact that 37% of our weaker students take the SAT (compared to less than 10% nationally). I am by no means suggesting that you should send your child to our hs, by any means! It certainly has its share of problems. But the Boston suburbs have some of the best schools in the country: Newton North and Newton South, Lexington, Lincoln-Sudbury, Acton-Boxborough, Brookline, Belmont, Wayland, Wellesley, Weston. Even our high school manages to send students to the most selective colleges. My S has friends who are either in or about to go to Harvard, MIT, Yale and Swarthmore.
What I am trying to suggest is that one should look beyond the average statistics and delve deeper into the school profile.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Cubfan:

Our S attends one of the top prep schools that you mentioned. It has been a wonderful experience for him. He will not be attending an ivy league school next year, but has some wonderful choices. The school he attends will be in the same price range as an ivy. He would not trade the prep experience for anything. It has helped mold him into a fine young man (mom's can say that). He has been exposed to a diverse student body that he would not have had he attended our local public school. The classes he has taken have been amazing.

We are not "rich and privileged", and unlike Chinaman's son, we had to pay every penny out of pocket. Was it worth it? Absolutely.
We won't qualify for financial aid for college either beause we both work and own a house (with equity). We will pay full boat for college too. If it means going without some luxuries and borrowing against our equity, that's a decision we will make. S has a younger sister too. Thank goodness she is only in sixth grade. Education will be a priority for her too. We just won't be able to retire until we are 92! That's ok with us.

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Bostonbound-

My experience with public schools comes from the fact that I sit on a commission for public schools in my neighborhood. However, my own children have never attended. I sit on the commission in hopes fof being able to make enough improvements in my community schools so that my D might, one day, be able to attend. In the city of Philadelphia the schools system stinks..period. There is no way around it. BUT, there are a few public elementary schools, in certain neighborhoods, that are comparable to the privates. You must reside within the boundaries of these neighborhoods in order to send your child to these schools. So, as someone moving in the community, it would seem to be as simple as saying "make sure you move to XXXX because public school is tops". Well, the School Choice program ended that. Now, kids in traditionally less competitive school can put in a transfer to another school in the city...and guess where they all want to go???? That's right, they all want to go to the 3-4 top publics. There are a number of problems that will arise form that option....overcrowding....potential lack of parental involvement (these kids are being transferred from all over the city - parents might be less likely to attend all school events if they are 30 minutes away as opposed to 3 minutes away)....lack of ability for the teacher to maintain the pace of the classroom.....it goes on....

I say all of this to point out that the publics are now facing a whole new set of challenges.

My community is addressing this by planning to build a series of "free schools". These schools will not be part of the public school system, so they will operate as privates. But, they will be free. There is one currently in operation and another on the way in 2005. You might want to see if your community has anything like this.

Of course, the magnet schools are a very good option. I attended a magnet school for 9th grade, but after 11 years in a private school, it was too much of a culture shock and I returned to private for 10th.

There are lots of options. Do you have a real estate agent? They are great resources for school info.

If you do have to go the prep school route you can look at it this way....paying for college won't be such a shock. (this is what I tell myself, at least)

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Bostonbound, with all my kids and their issues and problems and all of my moves, it takes me very little time to scopoe out the local public school scene. It really depends on your kids, however. Since we had so many, it was pretty clear that any one public school would be able to be a good fit for all of them or most of them, so we moved into an area with lower school taxes so we invested as little as possible in the public school. We knew we would not be using it. That was NY---also the better school districts were so darned expensive that we would have really been house poor had we bought even their most humble offering, not too mention squeezed as we have many kids and animals.

When we moved here, we did invest in a public school that had good programs for mildly LD kids, special needs kids, as all three of the youngest had some issues that are often best addressed by the public schools which are by law forced to provide these services. But we ended up finding a wonderful small catholic school that has just nurtured all of these kids so wonderfully, that I jumped the gun and moved out of NY sooner than I had to so I could get the kids into that school. But the public school is the best back up I can have for them, and so we are paying commensurate taxes for that purpose, and we do so gladly. The other benefit of having a desirable public school is that your real estate generally appreciates more and it is easier to sell a house in a good school district even in slow market times. Someone is always looking for a better school district for the children.

If you have kids who are top of board on standardized tests and are motivated students, a top school district is a consideration. I never did have that scenario, unfortunately, so the Scarsdales, Chappaquas, Millburns, New Triers were not for us. If you have kids who can be way up there, those schools do have the best placement rates at the more competitive colleges. You can ask and try to find out where the top five ranked students, or even top 3 ranked students for the last several years ended up in college. If you find a total lack of HPYs in a large school district with a great school profile, beware. The horn is tooting a bit too loud. If they cannot place their top students in the past few years in any of the top schools where they likely applied, what are the chances that your child is going to break that trend? Also any special interests that your child may have should be heavily supported by the school such as music or sports. I had a potential college athlete when I went to NY so I eliminated any school that could not showcase him in his sport. It would have been crazy not to have done that. If your school does not have a great orchestra, and your kid wants to play in one, that can be a problem as it is not always easy to find a private one that can mesh with your schedule, travel patterns and will give your child a seat. If your child likes an activity but is not that competitive you might want to rethink a large school where only the top of the top get the opportunity to participate. I know gifted theatre kids that got little opportunity at a large western Pa school in any production because the school was so big and too few kids could participate. The families ended up privately providing the opportunities. The kids are at top theatre colleges now which the public school has a dismal record at placing their theatre kids, and they are there no thanks to the school. If your child is advanced and gifted in certain areas, how difficult is it to get enrichment and advanced courses and can you get in touch with kids' parents currently in that situation. At Scarsdale, our student guide gave us great info--found out there were nearly 40 kids crammed in AP English the year we were looking at that highschool and that the kids were gatekept out of AP courses but aggressive parents would get kids in above the official numbers. Not my cup of tea to have to fight for that sort of stuff.

Don't overlook the smaller catholic schools either. Many do not have the standardized test numbers that the prep and big boy public schools do, but that can give a top kid who is not ultra top a chance to shine whereas he might be one of the crowd in the alternatives. Two of my kids took a hiatus in that type of school and were snapped up by prep schools whereas their peers in a 'better" public school were turned down. My son who graduated form one of these schools made out as an "AP stud" , something he would have never been allowed to do in a competitive public school where a kid has to go through a matrix of requirements to take AP courses. You pays your money to get that AP desigation, and it can pay off big. I worry about S2's lack of AP designation on his transcripts and about what he will be getting on his AP tests this June. I think S1's school taught to the test, and S2's school does not. Teaching to the test gave son big benefits as he did well on the AP tests junior year. And he is in a tough college, and though the lack of academic thoroughness in highschool might have made it harder for him in his college courses, he did get in the door which kids who were better prepared from better schools often did not get in to do tackle the curriculum there.

I am a bit jaundiced at the moment about public schools as I am trying to get what I thought was a simple issue resolved with ours and am getting a bureaucratic run around. Just told H, that I am now reminded why we are paying tuition. Even after the principal, appalled at what was happening, called me apologized, and said things would be set, I am still in a loop. And this is after years of dealing with schools. Incredible.

I personally prefer the private schools but do caution parents who are making this enormous time and financial commitiment to know what the advantages are with these schools, and what they may not be. You better be financially savvy about the college process because these schools can work against your child getting major merit awards because of low gpa numbers. They may not do as well as you think they will on AP tests because some of them do not bother to cover the AP material and have a few extra classes to attempt to go over the test for kids who want to take the tests. And those classes can be a problem in scheduling--my son can't take most of them because of his heavy EC commitments--it was not an issue for his brother because the danged school covered all the AP material thoroughly in the course. Although the adcoms of certain select colleges may know the reputation of the school and the grading scale, don't expect the larger state universities that may just have a clerk submit numbers into a computer for admissions, to take into account that your son is in a rigorous curriculum. Or many scholarship agencies. A 3.6 which is outstanding at these schools just does not look as good as that 4.2. This is reality calling. Your child will most likely be prepared as well as possible for further education at these school and have a great experience. They truly provide wonderful opportunities for every student there. Everyone is treated as special. But once they leave this "fairyland" that is not always the case. Being the #1 basketball player in some of these leagues may not get you recruited, whereas some public school have famous powerhouse teams where strong players get snatched up everywhere if he has decent test scores and grades. The hours that the music program demands at the school can cut into the private work and practice that the top music colleges demand for their students. My son does not get home until 10 pm many nights. Hardly time to practice his music. Yes, he is a triathlete which would have been impossible at his public school if he wanted to be in all of the performing groups he is in. But he would have been able to specialize in any one thing a bit better. And his grades would certainly be higher. I am worried about how this is going to play out for him.

Good luck in your choice. If you are just aware of the issues that are in these private schools, you are well ahead of the game. My concern is for parents and kids who think they are in a nirvana when there could be distinct disadvantages. They may be disadvantages that some families choose not to fund.

By Enzom (Enzom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Sokkermom:

Couldn't agree more. I went to prep school 20 years ago(Blair Academy). It was the greatest gift my parents ever gave me, other than their love and support. Boarding schools are qualitatively very different from day schools due to the boarding experience. I believe they are a unique and positive experience that stands on its own, independent of where one attends college. Our daughter will certainly attend prep school(if she wishes, of course).

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Enzom:

We actually have the best of both worlds. We are fortunate to live close enough to a really great boarding prep school where S is a day student. However, he leaves the house at 7:30am and we don't see him again until after dinner most days. He can eat meals there, so one way we have saved money is through a reduction in our grocery bill. LOL.
He has friends from all over the world. The kids we have met are all great kids.

By Enzom (Enzom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Agree. Good for him and you!! Unfortunately, we live in Florida and our daughter will be in N.J. if she wants to attend Blair. I suspect we will be flying up quite often. It will definitely be a sacrifice and we will certainly miss her, but that is how strongly we feel about giving her this experience. I have been educated for what seems like forever(I practice Internal Medicine), but of all the schools/institutions which I have attended(including the Mayo Clinic)none did as much for me as prep school. Best of luck to your son in his college decision making process. Is he interested in LACs?

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Enzom:

One of the reason's he didn't apply to any LAC's is that he thought it would be too similar to his current school experience. In actuality, his school is very much like a small liberal arts college. He wanted something a bit larger, with a different college experience, and more resources that a larger university would offer. In fact, he tried to talk his best friend out of Williams because it was too similar to his prep school environment. And even though most of the kids at his school are wonderful, it does have an "elitist" group. His thinking was that a different environment would be a refreshing change from that too.

By Star69 (Star69) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Momsdream-- who is paying for the "free schools"?What makes them different from a public, magnet or charter school?

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

I would say Andover, Exeter are very different and much more resourceful than anyother prep school. Exeter is not need blind. Deerfield and Andover are need blind.

By Songman (Songman) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Bostonbound...Marite has a point as we live in Massachusetts also.But remember this like every prestigious town in every state you pay for the private school tuition in your property taxes and inflated house prices. My house is worth $450,000 stick my house in Wellesley or Chestnut Hills,Newton etc..and it will cost you about 750,000-1 million! So we moved to a cheaper neighborhood and sent our son to private school. My property taxes are $4,000 a year in Newton they would be $12,000 minimum. So they are others way to make it work.That is my point....

By Luigi (Luigi) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Thanks Chinaman, for the info.

I always thought Andover was need-blind, but I think Exeter is very close to being need-blind. These two boarding preps are indeed very much different from the rest of the large top 10 boarding preps, in that they are diverse in every aspect, economically, racially, ethnically and geographically. In fact, it is this diversity and non-conformity to the rest of the pack that give them a more liberal bent. Andover is the most liberal, with its student body voting against George W., an Andover alum, during the last election. It is often referred to as the "public" prep. Their student bodies mirror the ones of the Ivies and elite colleges with the same diversity. Unfortunately, Choate does not fall into the same category as Andover and Exeter in terms of financial aid.

BTW, I am an Andover parent and an alum of 2 Ivies, born and raised in NYC. Most of my colleagues and former roommates at my 2 Ivy alma maters who live in NYC, have sent their kids to the NYC private day preps. They turned down the prestigious public magnets, Stuy, and Bronx Science. I am an alum of one these magnet schools in NYC back in the 1960s. My roommate in college, also a public NYC magnet school alum, sent both of his sons to Saint Ann's from k-12 and both are attending Ivies. His neice went to Andover (same class as JFK Jr., '79), Harvard, Stanford and Yale for her PhD in the 1980s. She is on faculty at Harvard today. In fact, my college roommate's wife, whom he married over 30 years ago, is an alumna of Hunter College H.S. (and subseqently a top 4 law school), probably the most academically rigorous of all the NYC public magnets with an senior average SAT I score of 1450 and the highest rate of National Merit Scholars in its graduates. Almost all of us were products of the NYC magnets, yet many of our offsprings are in the private day and boarding preps. Many of my former classmates' children have attended Choate, Brearley (grad school roomate sent 2 daughters to Brearley and then the Ivies) and Horace Mann. Therefore, I never am at a lost for info about NYC day preps.

I have the utmost respect for both the private preps, day and boarding, and especially the public NYC magnets, Stuy, Bronx Science and Huner College HS for Girls. They all serve us well and meet every one of our needs and I am deeply indebted to them. Hey, the NYC public magnets are FREE!!

By Luigi (Luigi) on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Correction:

Many of my former classmates' children have attended Collegiate (not Choate), Brearley (grad school roommate sent 2 daughters to Brearley and then the Ivies) and Horace Mann. Therefore, I never am at a lost for info about NYC day preps.

By Mzhang23 (Mzhang23) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 09:29 pm: Edit

As a Collegiate senior, I feel that Prep schools only have so much of an advantage when it comes to college admissions. Last year's class, which was very university-oriented, saw 51% of the students matriculate to Ivies, but this year has been very different. I have seen a lot of very qualified candidates get rejected from the top schools, including a Hispanic URM with excellent stats from Harvard, Brown, and Yale. Oftentimes, the relationships and influence that Prep school counselors have are overestimated. Yes, prep counselors have better relationships, but the higher matriculation rate is really because they have the time and resources to advocate for individual students. Having seen my guidance counselor's recommendation recently, I was quite surprised by its length - well in excess of 1000 words examining my academic and extracurricular career at the school, as well as my character and major strengths. Personal college counseling is what one receives, and that can often lead to informed decisions and can also act as tip factors for adcoms to accept you. Prep schools ultimately have high rates not because of legacies or major hooks (those make up a small number of the class), but because the students are hand-picked from the best students in the city. Prep for Prep minorities, who make up a significant percentage of the minority population at prep schools, both day and boarding, are hand-picked twice - once by Prep for Prep, and then again by the prep schools. It's no wonder that in the past, most of the URM's have gone to some of the top schools. Two Prep URM's at St Ann's this year pretty much swept HYPS - that's what you get when you handpick students.

Finally, I have something else to throw out there. Most people just end up looking at the numbers - the stats, SAT's, matriculation rates, etc. But what about the education? Personally, I would never have gone to Stuyvesant simply because of the environment. I'm extraordinarily glad to have stayed at Collegiate, where there is no GPA calculated for you (no one cares), no class rank, and, best of all, small seminar-based classes. All my classes have under 18 kids - BC Calc has 7 kids right now. Furthermore, I am not pressured to take AP's like public school students. It's common for the top pub school students to take the most AP's, since grades are weighted. Grades are just grades here - even the best students really only take 3 AP's at most per year, and students can only start with AP's in Junior year. AP English and Eng Lit aren't even classes - students just take the AP, and most get 5's or 4's. I am glad that instead of forcing myself into AP Euro, I can take a more focused and interesting one-semester elective like African History. That's just my two cents. Just because some public schools send just as many kids to ivies, have higher average SAT's - that in no way means that they're prep school level. Prep school is simply a different place - otherwise, many parents would be spending 20k+ a year for nothing.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 10:37 pm: Edit

As a parent of an Andover student, I know that in 1999, Harvard admitted 18 students, and 16 matriculated at Harvard and 2 chose to go elsewhere, Yale admitted 19 Andover students in 1999 and 18 matriculated at Yale and one chose to go elsewhere.

Of the 18 students Harvard admitted from Andover that year, it had a yield rate of 16/18 or 89%, which was much better than Harvard's overall yield rate of 80% for 1999. Of the 19 Andover students Yale admitted in 1999, it had a yield rate of 18/19 or 95%, which was much better than Yale's overall yield rate of 64% for 1999. Obviously, at most, there were only 3 common admits between Harvard and Yale, if there any at all. Therefore, out 37 Harvard and Yale admits, only 3 chose not to go and declined their admission. These are amazing yield rates for Harvard and Yale from Andover's admitted students by any account.

Here's one explanation for these high yield rates for admitted Andover students to Harvard and Yale from the article, "Getting Inside the Ivy Gates", by Reshma Memon Yaqub. September 2002, Worth Magazine.

"What all parents need to know about getting their children into America's most elite colleges"

[Alex Rampell, a Harvard student who graduated from Phillips Academy (ranked No. 10 on the HYP feeder list) in 1999, says his school did everything possible to maximize the number of students who were admitted to top colleges—even if that meant discouraging some students from applying to a college of their choice. He had wanted to apply early to Harvard and still consider Princeton, his parents' alma mater; however, Rampell says, students at his school must promise their college counselors that they will attend a college that accepts them early, even if the acceptance is not binding from the college's perspective. "The school doesn't want you to waste acceptances that you're not going to take," he says. Rampell's parents eventually convinced the school to let him apply to Princeton after Harvard had accepted him. Rampell got into Princeton but chose to go to Harvard.]

By Mom101 (Mom101) on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 11:36 pm: Edit

We discussed at length with my D, who will go to St. Paul's next year, that her chances of going to HYPS may well be reduced as compared to her other options (current private day, local public, lesser prep). Amazing to have to have this conversation with a 13 year old, but it's reality and she has talked a lot about Princeton! I think statistics would have to prove that a kid capable of getting into a top prep's chances of those schools would be much better at any American hs save a very few. We all needed to accept that and take the prep for what it really is--her most exciting hs option.

By Charliekang (Charliekang) on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Actually, I really don't see how going to a prep school reduces chances at colleges. Theres still a reason why theyre called feeder schools. I go to one and my sister did as well. She had a 3.2 gpa with a 1380 sat with no ec's and is at columbia university right now. One senior I know with a 3.3 1460 sat will be attending wharton next fall. another with a 2.9 gpa 1300 sat will be attending davidson(although hes ok at football) next fall. These people arent exceptions.... you are seriously guaranteed a top ten school if you have a 3.4 or above at these schools(at least mine). Im not kidding. Theres a guidance counselor who is extremely well connected with the ivys because they can trust her. Personally, i scored a 1480 sat with around a 3.3 gpa and was accepted to columbia, stanford, usc, and ucla. Im not saying its like this at every school, but if you go to one of these new england schools, IN MY OPINION(just my opinion, dont flame), it will immensely increase your chances at great schools. Not only will these schools provide you with experiences you will always cherish, theyll get you into college as well.

By Anothernycdad (Anothernycdad) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:42 am: Edit

Luigi,
Thanks for all the great info and good insights... and I'm thinking despite the present tense you must know that Hunter has been co-ed for 20 years or so.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 09:18 am: Edit

Anothernycdad said, "Luigi, Thanks for all the great info and good insights... and I'm thinking despite the present tense you must know that Hunter has been co-ed for 20 years or so."

Your thanks is appreciated. Yes, I am aware of this. Of course, my first encounter with Hunter College High School was when it was an all-girl's school over 50 years ago. I remember vividly that the smartest girl in my elementary school classes went to Hunter College HS, who eventually got her BA and MD at the U.of Penn, becoming a practicing pediatrician. During my recent Ivy School class reunion, one of my former classmates' daughter graduated from Hunter College HS at near the top of the class, with a SAT I of 1600 and all 800s on her SAT IIs and 5s on her APs, in addition to being the Captain of the swim team and having other ECs. She is a student at Harvard College today. At that time, and up till today, the best and the brightest, from the pool of mostly NYC public school students, went to Hunter, as well as Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech.


Townsend Hariss, has also been reopened in Oueens, NYC, as a magnet school. These schools are the jewels of the NYC public school system and in fact, the crowning jewels of the American public school system, catering to the often poor working class and the lower middle class students, who excell, based on merit with entrance based on a standardized entrance exam, grades and teacher's recommedations. These students succeed on the highest level in all segments of society, including the arts, sciences and academia, and by winning prestgious awards such the Intels, the Seimans-Westinghouse Prizes, International Math and Science Olympiad Medals, and the Nobel Prizes. The "meritocracy" is still alive and well, despite numerous attempts on killing it when "elitism" became politically incorrect.

Hunter College High School, has a SAT I average of 1450, for a graduating class of 190 and Stuyvesant HS has over a 1400 average, for a graduating class of over 700.

I do not know of any high school in America, public or private day or boarding prep, with these SAT I averages with these large student bodies, other than the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, Virginia, a magnet school, which has also a 1450 SAT I average for a class of 400 seniors. Among, these student bodies, you find the most amazing and the best and the brightest of high school students in America, no matter what standards or criteria one uses to evaluate them.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:00 am: Edit

Click on the following for more info on these schools;

http://www.city-journal.org/html/9_2_how_gothams_elite.html


"How Gotham’s Elite High Schools Escaped the Leveller’s Ax"

by Heather Mac Donald

"New York City brags to the world about its excellences—its peerless business expertise, its world-class restaurants, its unparalleled sophistication, its renowned monuments—but about one rare treasure, a set of elite, overachieving public high schools, it remains largely silent. The Bronx High School of Science, Stuyvesant High School, and Brooklyn Technical High School have nurtured nine Nobel laureates, hundreds of Westinghouse Science Talent Search winners, award-winning biologists and astrophysicists, astronauts, inventors, and captains of commerce. The Ivy Leagues clamor for their graduates, virtually all of whom attend college. Their daily attendance rate runs at 95 percent and higher. These schools are everything the rest of the public education system is not: its reverse image, they are the positive to its negative."

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:04 am: Edit

Luigi, you might be interested in recent developments in the relationship between Stuy and Princeton:
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/04/05/news/10132.shtml

By Kissy (Kissy) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:21 am: Edit

If you look at the OP's Deerfield list, you may note that MIT is not included. I was told by a couple of students that Deerfield strongly discourages students from applying there based on historically poor acceptance numbers for its students. This leads me to think that the application process is definitely "managed" to some extent and that, although not as common, a school's problematic relationship with the adcoms can hinder a student's chance of acceptance.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

To Aparent4:

I am fully aware of the article above. The problem is that the concept of a "meritocracy" became politically incorrect at Princeton, as well as at the rest of the Ivies after "meritocracy" made a brief appearance during the early 1960s at the Ivies, especially at HY, as a part of their admissions process. This "meritocracy" was instituted after the SAT I and II tests in admissions were used, when President Conant, of Harvard, called for a change in searching for applicants based on merit, rather than on "entitlement" of the students it admitted, who consisted of mostly grads and legacies from the top ten N.E. boarding schools of WASPs and, especially, the Episcopalians power elite, in the early 1900s. Harvard wanted to replace the "mediocrity" of this admissions process with academic excellence with the use of standardized testing enlarging the applicant pool from different segments of society, which enabled Jews and Asian Americans to be the largest minority groups at Harvard at 30% and 18% respectively. In fact the WASPs (white Anglo-Saxon Protestants) became the minority.

Princeton was slow to change, after Harvard changed years ago, and for years it never admitted any Stuyvesant students, despite their acceptances to Harvard, Yale, MIT, Columbia, Penn, Stanford, Cornell and EVEN Darthmouth. The Stuyvesant applicants were mainly Jewish and Asian Americans (Stuyvesvant was formerly 90% Jewish and now over 51% Asian Americans).

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:07 am: Edit

St. Paul's Chapel at Columbia was specifically built to counteract Columbia's reputation as the (Jewish) "poor man's Ivy" and attract more of that Episcopal elite you discuss. There is an interesting-looking course on Jews at Columbia that makes it clear how calculated and widespread discrimination against Jews and all immigrants was among the Ivies, if any of us had any doubts. As a non-Jewish ethnic, I can tell you that my parents and their very bright siblings went to City College and Cooper Union and wouldn't have dreamed of the Ivies.

Princeton obviously did have Jewish students, though not from Stuy, enough so that there was a huge scandal around their not being admitted to eating clubs in the '50s. ;-( I'm sure I don't have to tell you it has a Center for Jewish Life, etc. etc.

Hargadon seems to have long favored the well-rounded scholar-athlete over the one-dimensional "brain," and the latter is the way he seems to have perceived Stuy students. For years my own kids' not-famous public high school regularly had students admitted to Harvard and all the other Ivies, but never Yale. As Kissy says, this is often a function of the individual relationships between adcom and hs admin. Although Hargadon was an interesting character, he was so successful that he was given carte blanche by Princeton for too long.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:14 am: Edit

The biggest change at Princeton is the early retirement of the Dean of Admissions, Fred Hargadon.


Quotes from the Daily Princetonian's soul searching article on Princeton's Admissions and it former Dean, Fred Hargadon.

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/04/05/news/10132.shtml

Monday, April 5, 2004

SIX YEARS OF DEBATE

Contentious Hargadon deanship colors admissions' past and future

by Zachary A. Goldfarb, Princetonian Editor-in-Chief



"Relations remained chilly with many of Hargadon's constituencies, except coaches. He had a bitter falling out with the Center for Jewish Life over the numeric decline in Jewish students at Princeton — aside from the study group, the only time Shapiro (the President of Princeton at the time) intervened on another constituency's behalf. Even people inside the admission office felt Hargadon dominated and didn't leave room for junior admission officer input, according to two authoritative sources."


"They thought he (Dean of Admissions at Princeton, Fred Hargadon) was admitting too many athletes, but too few artists and academics. They thought he wasn't receiving faculty input well, and not reaching out to particular high schools enough. David Wilkinson, the late physics professor an earshot from the Nobel Prize, demanded to know why the admission office no longer asked him to visit Stuyvesant, New York's best public high school, and sing Princeton's praises to its physics club.

"The Stuyvesant example sticks out. During the study group, members, some said, often discussed how they wanted more "Stuyvesant" students, curling their fingers into quote marks. One official familiar with Princeton admissions compared urban Stuyvesant, where there are academic superstars but a relative lack of extracurricular activities, to the suburban Thomas Jefferson High School in Virginia, which also has academic superstars but dozens of teams."

"Tilghman (President of Princeton) visited Stuyvesant this year to raise the University's profile there, part of her efforts in recent years to visit schools known for academic quality. Despite a decrease in applications to Princeton this year, Rapeleye nevertheless reported an increase in the number of academically talented students — though from 11 percent fewer schools."

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:23 am: Edit

This is an amazing discussion. It should be required reading for anyone applying to these schools. If I had read this discussion I would have guided my son in much different ways.

This kind of information is not discussed in any of the college books that I read- In fact they pretend that these kinds of relationships with schools are a thing of the past.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:23 am: Edit

Luigi, I am confused. That's exactly the same link I just posted above. And if you read my last post, that is exactly the point I was making in my last paragraph. ???

By Luigi (Luigi) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:59 am: Edit

Aparent4 said, "St. Paul's Chapel at Columbia was specifically built to counteract Columbia's reputation as the (Jewish) "poor man's Ivy" and attract more of that Episcopal elite you discuss."

The history and the story of Columbia are very interesting. Columbia was one of the few schools in America founded from a charter given by the King of England, King George, in 1754, under the auspices of the Anglican Church of England, known today as the Episcopalian Church in America. It was known as King's College before the revolution and drew its students from NYC and its history was entwined with the history of NYC, which servred as a portal for many Jewish immigrants from Europe during the beginning of the 20th century. Many of these Jewish immigrants and other ethnic groups were part of the "huddled masses" whose children were discriminated against in admissions to the Ivies. Columbia was the first to open up to these immigrant groups before the 1950s, despite its Anglican or Episcopalian roots. Queen Elizabeth, of England, made a personal visit to Columbia in 1954 to rekindle these English and Anglican Church roots on Columbia's 200th year. Today, it is celebrating its 250th year after its founding. It is also ironic that when Gen. "Ike" Eisenhower became President of Columbia after WW II, there was an uproar and protestation from the Trustees of Columbia. Do you know why? The reason was that Eisenhower was a Presbyterian, and not an Episcopalian. Only a few decades later, Columbia had its first Jewish President, Micheal Sovern, born and raised in the Bronx, a graduate of Bronx Science HS, Columbia College, and Columbia Law and a distinguished Law Professor at Columbia Law. He became Columbia's biggest fund fundraiser. Also, I.I. Rabbi, the Nobel Prize Winner in Physics and the first tenured Jewish proffessor at Columbia, helped build Columbia's illustrious Dept. of Physics with many of its faculty also winning the Nobels in particele and atomic physics. There were many other Jews on faculty, especially in the literary arts, literary criticism, art history, the humanities, math, science and engineering. The Dean of the Fu School of Engineering (named after a Chinese donor to this school which is over 40% Asian)) is a Cornell PhD Israeli today. At one time, when the quotas on Jews were strictly enforced at the other Ivies, Columbia was over 50% Jewish.

By Luigi (Luigi) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Aparent4 said, "Luigi, I am confused. That's exactly the same link I just posted above. And if you read my last post, that is exactly the point I was making in my last paragraph. ???"


Please don't be confused, I only quoted the relevant passages in this long article to HIGHLIGHT your excellent points as well as my points.

Thanks again, Aparent4, your input is ver much appreciated and is quite relevant to the OP of this thread with its original topic of discussion.

By Momstheword (Momstheword) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Lizchup--if you care to share, what might have you done differently knowing what you know now?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:34 pm: Edit

There are many, many reasons to put your child in one of these prep schools if he can get accepted. But they are not a sure road for acceptance to the ivies, and as I have said many times, for a given child they can be a detriment. And the experience is not always wonderful either. Nor is the investment, if you cannot afford it. I see many families who get caught in the fallout afterwards who are more than$100K poorer and very unhappy.

The counselors are much more intimate in these schools with the college process but do remember that the advantages swing more than one way. Yes, it can be wonderful to have a 4 page glowing rec about every aspect about your child. But the reason these recs have such substance with many of the schools is that they also uncover all of the kids' blemishes. Some kids, (some of mine) would do better without a tell all rec. Also some of these counselor play "God" with these kids but letting out infor to the colleges to maximize the school's yield. It is all well and good for those kids on the receiving end of these relationships, but there are also kids who are on the short end of that stick. When a counselor can be literally in bed with the adcom, things come out that are not necessary to be told. ?Decisions are made that are not those to be made by a counselor. You can end up giving up something. I know one young lady who did not get into her EA safety which really should have been a given. The parents were quite shaken about this since she was also deferred by her ED school and with two deferrals starting out the app seasons, things were tense. When they spoke to the counselor, she let it out that the EA school was told that the girl in question was probably going to get in elsewhere. In other words, they wanted to get other kids into the EA college from that highschool and were willing to sacrifice this young lady. The assurance was that if all did not go well, the EA school would end up taking her upon appeal. All well and good, if the adcom in contact with the GC does not drop dead or leave or find she could not keep her promise due to changes in the admissions offices. And the scholarships were all forfeited since this particular school only offers merits for those who apply EA. The young lady did get into one other school that she preferred over this school, but it was awfully close and I do not believe GCs should be making these kind of deals. It is none of their business and nor should they be giving out some of the info that they do about the kids applying to the colleges.

Part of the reason the GCs at these schools have such pull is that they do keep track of what their kids are doing. In public schools, I have seen kids disregard the ED commitment, put deposits down for more than one school, apply EA along with single choice EA, not bother to notify a school if they are not coming, lie about things on the app. If you get into trouble in a prep school, the whole school knows about it for years to come; whereas at many public schools any misbehaviour or disciplinary action does not cross the radar screen of the college GC. Pretty hard to do at a prep school where the counselor scrutizes each app carefully and micro manages the process. But there are certain privacy lines that they also cross that I feel they should not. And depending on the kind of kid you have, it can be a disadvantage.

There are disadvantages of each type of school and advantages as well. It so depends on the family and the child. Also the finances. I know that many of the prep schools are not needblind but most private schools are need blind but simply do not offer great aid packages to all who need them. Their definition of need and yours may differ widely, and loans are just not the way to go for highschool unless the home and school situations are so adverse that boarding the child is the very best option. If you can't pay for high school, what on earth are you going to do about college? You do not get consideration for what you owe when you fill out that FASFA for college. Also if your child ends up coming home for college as my friend's D did, home is often not home when you went to highschool elsewhere.

I will say that when you are considering schools for your gifted and talented children, that the track record the school has in placing their kids in the top colleges. It does not bode well if the school has not placed a kid in HPYS in their memory. It is not likely your kid is going to be the first. And the same scenario applies if certain med schools or law schools are on the radar screens. There are many colleges who never place student in the top programs, or in few programs. Your are taking an additional chance of being the exception to the rule. There is no hard and fast rule to the best school and each decision should be made with as much information possible that fits your child's situation.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Thanks, Luigi. Lizschup, as I've posted before on these boards, I have talked to many bright and accomplished people who put their children into "feeder" schools and then were stunned when they did not gain admission to certain elite schools. These same people have expressed their astonishment that my own two children and many of their friends have done so, coming out of a public school that is not a magnet or a Scarsdale.

Yes, Princeton, for example, may have admitted 32 from Deerfield. Yet look at the freshman "facebook" and you will also see dozens of students from very ordinary public high schools all across the country. (Actually, we have read that over the past few years Princeton had a policy of actively seeking students from high schools from which they had never admitted a student.) The colleges are well aware that, while the students from the top private schools bring certain life experiences -- fencing or squash, for example, not to mention excellent writing -- those from ordinary schools have a great deal to offer in terms of community-building, drive, etc.

Students from ordinary schools may not have the contacts that the feeders do, but the books that suggest other ways to stand out are offering helpful advice. At Yale, the adcom rep did tell us that they were in regular contact with private schools but encouraged students at an on-campus info session to begin correspondence with the regional rep in order to make themselves known. The feeder is to some degree a brand name and a known commodity, but a student from any school who knows how to do the same things for him or herself that the feeder school does for its top students -- how to get useful recommendations and assemble an application that conveys a strong sense of identity -- is likely to be admitted somewhere he or she wants to go.

Not to sound like Condoleezza Rice, but there is no silver bullet here, and no parent needs to feel that she or he should have put a child into a feeder school if the results were not those originally sought.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Momstheword, I posted a long list of things I would have done differently a month or two ago. This is not shocking news to me now. It's something I've figured out after reading CC for the past 6 months.

The thing that I would have done differently in relationship to this knowledge is that I would have discouraged such a solitary focus on these schools. I think I said that not too long ago but this discussion reinforces my assumptions. I would not have put him into a feeder school to get in to an Ivy-we don't even have one in Minnesota according to the links.

Aparent, I agree with most of your post and if I'm not mistaken 70% of the kids admitted to Harvard are from public schools. I do think it is difficult to understand how to put together a competitive application when you are not surrounded by people who have been to or aspiring to go to Ivies. I'm making a generalization here. I know there are public school kids on this very board who got in, in spite of this. If you have a school that has GC's and teachers who are accustomed to writing recs for Ivies I believe you are at an advantage. I'm not making excuses and I certainly don't want to discount those who got in. We are in an environment that is a polar opposite of yours as far as I can tell from reading these boards. Very few kids around here,even very smart ones with very educated parents aspire to go to the Ivies.

By Aparent4 (Aparent4) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Well, *one* of our GCs writes good recs, Lizschup. The rest...well...

I definitely agree with you that it is hard to put together a competitive application in isolation. College Confidential and the old version of That Other Board get the credit from me here. Even in districts where a few top kids get into those schools, we aren't sitting around talking or hearing about this stuff. When my son was applying, I would tell him the things I was learning here and, though he paid attention, he also thought I was nuts. "My own mother is the most pessimistic person I know about getting into college," he would complain. Everybody else was saying the usual, "Oh, you'll get in anywhere."

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Aparent, I would have also used the essay service on this board. I thought about it but never followed through. I also wasn't reading CC forums at the time. I was so turned off by the tone of some of the students that I didn't read long enough to figure out there was a parents forum.

By Garland (Garland) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

I truly think that if it were not for parents and students on CC and the Other board, my son might not have gotten into his ED school. How to put together an app was info we weren't getting elsewhere, esp. the idea of trying to make all parts of the app emphasize two or three bullet points (was it Interesteddad who made that point?) I think that was the most omportant advice we got. Also, the idea of demonstrated interest. We also learned that S needed to apply very early to Michigan in order to have a better chance at its rolling admissions, which gave us great peace of mind early on. I was "pessimistic", too, like Aparent said, and basically hammered the idea that nothing could be assumed, so don't let up on effort or strength of schedule. I wish I could go back to my d's app process, to save her the whole transfer trauma. Oh well, live and learn. A belated thanks to all who made a difference.

But despite the lack of knowledge, and the somewhat inadequate level of our public school, things turned out pretty good for my kids, and it sure was cheaper!

By Momsdream (Momsdream) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Some of the points raised in this thread remind me that I need to really have a long talk with my son's CGC at school. The school has made it known that parents and students will NOT see the recs that are sent to colleges, unless you refuse to waive your right to see them - and everyone (according to them) waives it. They also said that forcing them to give you a glimpse of the rec is a sign that you might not trust them and may be overly concerned about something. This is concerning. My son't first report card of this year had a comment on it from his grade advisor that said she couldn't help but think my son is still trying to figure out how to be more involved in ECs at school and she would be glad to help him find something. She obviously had no idea that my son's EC committment is HUGE and entails him being President of a large teen orrganization which requires him to travel, attend conferences, volunteer teach at inner city schools on the weekends, run fundraising endeavors, etc...all of this in addition to the fact that he plays two varsity sports for the school nad participates in black student government at school and Amnesty Int'l. Clearly, she has no idea what my son does with his time. This is our fault for not making it clear to her. But, can you imagine if she put that in his college rec and we never saw it to correct it?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:01 am: Edit

Momsdream, when your son asks for a recommendation from someone, and he agrees to give him one, or if he has to get a rec from someone such as the advisor or GC, he should give the person an informal resume with all kinds of info on it that he wants the person to know. That is particularly important for the school rec. Colleges are not interested in the math teacher's perspective on the kid's ECs as much as the GC's. That is where you need to really inform the person. Can you imagine what could be written if the person gets writers block or blanks out when he needs to get your son's rec done? You get a page of BS sometimes. That is why you want to help these people out. Many schools also have a questionairre that they give for the student and parents to impart their info and impressions, but I strongly recomomend additional info. Many of these schools have hundereds of these things that have to get done, and the easier you make it for these people, the better off you will be.

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:17 am: Edit

Momsdream, the thing is, if you don't waive your right to see them, the colleges will know, since they ask, and anything positive said about the student will come under question, since the objectivity of the recommender is compromised by his/her knowing you will read it.

Jamimom's suggestions are great ones.

My son's GC let us know tht he needed to come see her as much as possible so she could get to know him well, and also asked for a list of his activities.

By Blossom (Blossom) on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:33 am: Edit

Context is key re:GC's. If you live in a community where most of the kids spend their afternoons doing tennis and spend vacations skiing, and yours is mopping floors at a fast food restaurant, the GC needs some understanding of the family situation in order to write a strong recommendation which isn't patronizing, but points out how unusual your kid is. I know it's hard to "share", but most GC's with large numbers of reccs to write have a mental punch list of things they cover, and if your child's situation doesn't fit that, your kid will be at a disadvantage unless you become proactive.

Not active in student government? Oh well. Not on a varsity team? Too bad. The fact that your kid may have community involvement, or have a huge leadership role in a religious organization, or works weekends and vacations isn't going to be highlighted unless you get them on the GC's radar screen. One of my kids was not a "joiner" in the high school sense, but had huge outside interests and commitments. These things get overlooked unless your GC has a cheat sheet in front of him/her when the recc is written.

I would urge you to waive your right to see the recc's, and just encourage your kid to make sure that everything that goes out from the school is as fact-based as possible. Adcom's see hundreds of recc's talking about the kid being a leader or having a sense of social justice with absolutely no data to back that up. Your kid may need to make a crib sheet on what Amnesty International is, or why organizing an Earth Day teach-in at a Superfund clean-up site is a complicated thing, but so what? At least you've got a shot at a decent recc. I bet that most of them are so generic that if you read all of them from your kids class, you probably couldn't identify more than a handful.