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Whew, we're almost done...now the final decision needs to be made. Our son is pretty sure that he wants to committ to Duke. It's been a busy few days reinvestigating colleges. I thought I'd make one last attempt here to get any opinions based on first hand knowledge rather than magazine rankings and university PR etc. I'm more interested in the student quality of life etc. Are they happy? Is the university "nurturing" (it's the mom thing!). Our son is planning on majoring in some area of engineering. Never been to North Carolina so input on the general area would be helpful, too.

Thanks for any opinions!

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

Duke has become a top choice school. This year it was one of the schools that more of the kids I know applied to. A great school with great climate. Lots of social opportunities along with top academics. Don't know much about the nurturing but the student quality of life is supposed to be quite high.

My brother is an alum, and I can attest that Dukies are quite active in their school long after graduation. Because of the high profile the school has in top sporting events (hey, final four this year ain't shabby), Dukies are constantly reminded of their alma mater. B made a lot of friends at Duke and the connections have kept even up North where he now lives and works. He laments the upward rise in ranking of his alma mater even as he savors the prestige rise, as he feels that the well rounded, fun loving Dukie of the 80's has been replaced with what he calls a "freak show" of one talent savants, but this has been a trend in all of the highly selective schools looking for the well rounded high talented class rather than student.

Congrats, to your student for gettin in. It was a tough draw this year. Many of "my" kids did not get in with terrific profiles. Princeton and Duke were the #1 reach for the stars schools with my group this year, and many ended up at Vanderbilt which also seemed to be on so many lists here.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Dak and Jamimom:

Looks like S is going to Duke. He is thrilled. He and my H are going to the "Blue Devil Day" on April 12. His college adviser thinks it is a great fit for him. She still thinks he should go to UVA Echols program on April 23 just to see what it is about. However, I think if he goes, it will be wearing his Duke hat and shirt!
He already has the Duke acceptance form and check written out. He actually had me watch the interview with Duke's new president which is posted on their website last night. Interestingly enough he was a former Dean at Yale. Has very positive outlook and sees Duke as a school that will continue to excel academically and otherwise.
We have visited the school many times and think it is beautiful. S wasn't keen on the freshmen living segregated on East campus, but now thinks it is not a bad idea. The students all seemed happy when we were there. The dorm rooms were small, but probably not too different from many schools.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Congrats to your son for having two top choices. My son loved UVA but did not have the numbers to get in their and his sport did not help him at their level. I think he would have picked UVA over Duke. So it comes down to personal preference. And congrats for getting a prestigious Echols, quite an accomplishment.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 12:49 pm: Edit

One of the things that S likes about Duke, is that the students still seem to be fun and well rounded. He is an excellent student, but realizes that college should be fun too. He is active in sports (probably at the club level at Duke), very active in theater, and involved with student government. He has a gretat sense of humor, and felt that he would be stifled at some of the other schools he looked at. He does not feel that way about Duke at all.

Jamimom: Are you a teacher or guidance counselor?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit

A tutor and a technical writer. The tutoring has overflown into the entire application process and I do work with several schools and parent groups. SAT2 Writing has always been my true specialty though math is my field of study. Ironic that I end up in writing after studying and working with mathematics.

My younger brother went to Duke many years ago and I would visit him then. Also ended up going there to pick him up at the end of the term and to some of his many, many activities. He too was very active in sports and student government and had a great time at the school.

I have also visited UVA on several occaisions and feel that it is right up there with Duke. That would be a tough decision between the two that your S is fortunate enough to have to make.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:09 pm: Edit

You have provided many insightful and helpful comments. It sounds like you are very familiar with the college application and selection process and have been through it a few times with your own children.
I completely agree that UVA is a great school. S also loved that campus when he visited last fall!
UVA also seems well suited for well rounded fun loving kids......
And even as an out of state student (we are not in VA), the cost of UVA is about $10,000/year less than Duke.
Does make for a tough decision!

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Duke: basketball & greek life are major campus forces. Depending on your point of view this is either a positive or negative. I am hoping it is a positive since your son applied LOL. Until last week I considered Duke conservative. However after reading Interesteddad's wonderful posts about what liberal and conservative really mean in terms of well known colleges I am looking at this differently. My general impression is of a lot of bwrk's who dislike admitting they ever study.. they want to appear that those grades are effortless, but imagine a huge number of extremely focused former valedictorian national science/math contest winners in those engineering classes. Don't kid yourself. It is very competitive and your student should be ready for that. They seem to study S-W, though never discussing it, and then the parties begin on Thursday night. Of course you have all seen the photos of the tent cities where students camp out waiting for basketball tickets. Some of them have their computers with them and are working as they wait. Please make a point of checking out the Focus program for freshmen, which is a wonderful opportunity imho. It may be difficult for an engineering student to participate but I believe the curriculum requirements are changing to allow more electives.

The student body seems very affluent and sometimes a bit showily so. Check out the cars in the student lots. Again, not necessarily a negative but something of which parents should be aware.

"I'm more interested in the student quality of life etc. Are they happy? Is the university "nurturing" (it's the mom thing!)."

I think most Duke students are extremely happy. For many southern students Duke is their first choice and they don't even apply to ivies. This really impacts the campus atmosphere imo. I was repeatedly appalled at the number of top 10 schools we visited where the tour guide told us that s/he had really wanted to go to H or Y. I think much less of this sort of thing goes on at Duke. They all seem very pleased with where they ended up. And I do think the university would be considered nurturing.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:25 pm: Edit

I hesistate to comment because we may have visited Duke on a bad day or something. So take this purely as one family's opinion that may be way off base:

When we made plans for our "southern" tour of college campuses, Duke was one of the top schools we wanted to visit. It didn't take 15 minutes on campus for all of us, daughter included, to say, "let's get out of here." It was the only college campus we visited where students walked alone, heads down, no greetings. No groups of students standing around having a "good time". No shouted greetings to each other. No laughter. It was really striking. Just an incredible contrast to UNC-Chapel Hill where, on the same sunny spring afternoon an hour earlier, kids were throwing frisbees, joking with our tour guide, and showing the palapable energy of youth that I feel on every college campus.

After watching the admissions scene unfold, my sense is that Duke, perhaps more than any other school, loves the "stat" kids. They inevitably take the "all work, no play, driven for a prestigious university" uber-SAT applicants the Ivies reject. I think the student body may reflect that.

BTW, we were not the only people to mention this. I've talked about the wonderful hour-long chat we had with an African-American woman at Wake Forrest. She had grown up in Raleigh and shared her opinions of the top NC schools based on her high school experience, her application experience, and her visits to friends at these campuses during college. She loved UNC-Chapel Hill, but felt it was too large for her. She loved Wake. On Duke, all she said was, "I don't know, it always seems really cold to me." That summed up our impression, too.

This was not Duke's reputation when I was applying to colleges as a southern kid 35 years ago and I really expected to come away from our visit with favorable impressions. I was very taken aback.

Who knows? Maybe we just caught on a bad day -- a sunny spring afternoon in April -- I don't know. But, I've seen happier students trudging between six foot snowbanks with a windchill of -20 degrees in the dead of Berkshire Mountain winter!

One other observation: I thought the apartheid policy of segregating freshmen into a separate campus a mile away from Duke was horrible.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Interesteddad:

Did your D or S apply to Duke?

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

I never saw Duke that way back when and in the last few years, and many of "my" kids here had Duke as their first choice school, ED, in fact. It was not second to many ivies here, except for a few who also applied to H and P--I did not have many Yalies in my groups. Also in looking at son's school book of statistics, Duke was a top choice for many student, right up there with the ED crowd (there Yale was a top choice).

It could have been a bad day, a bad visit. We have had a few of those. S had a terrible allergic reaction to the pollen at W&M that really affected his take on the school, and the tour guide was terrible that day which did not make things any better.

Some kids like having the freshman all together so that they can bond as a class that year. A lot of schools segregate freshman in specific dorms or classes for that reason. I know up until a few years ago, only freshman live in the dorms at Johns Hopkins; the rest were outsourced to apartments off campus. Now I believe they include sophomores with additional dorms built. BC also has a separate campus with freshman housing tending to be on it. For some kids, it is a sticking point, for others not a care.

The one thing that I did not care for at Duke was a prevalence of the "rich kid". Thought it was just my take but then the WSJ did an article on that very subject featuring a student on heavy fin aid who felt that it was truly tough--"Duke makes you feel poor, when you did not before." But there are many schools in this category including the ivies.

S got the same impression of Cornell that you all got of Duke. Was it the visit day? Who knows. But there are very happy students at both schools. I know many of them.

By Garland (Garland) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Interesting about that bad day thing. My S was running a fever the day we toured Cornell, and I think that colored his enthusiasm. He didn't dislike it, but he didn't take to it, either.

OTOH, I'm really surprised to hear tourguides anywhere saying that the school was not their first choice. I think every tour guide we met said that they'd applied ED, which struck me then as strange, but now that I think about it, it's smart PR, because obviously, the school was their first choice in that case.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Interesteddad, I hesitate to say this because usually I think your observations are exactly on target.... but of all the criticisms one might have of Duke, unhappy students doesn't seem to me valid. Having had some continuing familiarity with the campus for over 25 years I can comfortably say that the general student population appears very happy. In fact, they seem to me a fun loving group in the extreme. What day of the week did you visit? I wonder if it was after one of those rowdy, let's get crazy & burn our benches kind of nights so that the students who were awake were still recovering?

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

"After watching the admissions scene unfold, my sense is that Duke, perhaps more than any other school, loves the "stat" kids. They inevitably take the "all work, no play, driven for a prestigious university" uber-SAT applicants the Ivies reject. I think the student body may reflect that."

Ouch!!! What a generalization based on one day's visit. Something about the school peaked your interest or you would not have visited. How can you tell that a kid is an uber-SAT ivy reject by observing whether or not he plays frisbee on a particular day ????

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:11 pm: Edit

>> Interesteddad: Did your D or S apply to Duke?

No. She never considered putting it on her list after our visit, even though a very similar school (Emory) was near the top of her list.

It was downright spooky to spend an hour on a campus, walking around every building, getting a drink in the student center, and so forth without ever hearing one bit of laughter or a snippet of banter from a group of students. Not even a "hey, Charlie, what's happenin'?" in passing.

Jamimom: my objection wasn't that freshman were housed together. Most schools I've visited have a freshman quad -- often smack dab in the middle of campus. My objection was that the "freshman quad" at Duke is a mile away from campus separated by what is essentially a deserted road with nothing on it. My lasting mental image is of some poor freshman girl trudging up the hill, alone, to the main campus, head down, backpack digging into her shoulders, at the end of that hike. No wonder she didn't look up and smile when we said "hi" passing on the sidewalk!

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Yeah, I would much rather witness students skipping classes and laughing and running around in a drunken stupor! Particularly if I only had an hour to spend on campus.....

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:23 pm: Edit

re. the "poor freshman girl truding..."

the buses between east and west campuses run every 10 minutes I believe. No one expects students to hike from one campus to the other.

By Garland (Garland) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Sokkermom, I wouldn't take it so personally. Interesteddad offered his observations on the day he went, meant to be taken as that. Obviously, at any time of day, some students are in class and some are not; they don't have to be skipping to be visible.

Personally I think visits are a gut thing. Someone posted a link the other day to a funny column about why students like or dislike a school, and basically added that once a dislike happens, there's no sense in trying to talk the student into the place.

In our case, my son got the heebie-jeebies on a visit to Haverford, a perfectly nice school which I woulda loved to send him to. Toured Swarthmore the same day and he liked it very much. Who knows why the difference?

I think the purpose of these sorts of threads is to gather subjective experiences, not quantifiable answers. Inevitably, differences of opinion will surface.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:52 pm: Edit

>> Yeah, I would much rather witness students skipping classes and laughing and running around in a drunken stupor! Particularly if I only had an hour to spend on campus.....

We arrived about 2:00 pm and had planned on spending several hours on campus. We only spent an hour because we'd seen enough. I'm sure it's a great school. But, like I say, I expect to see some overt signs of kids having fun on a sunny spring afternoon on a college campus. The lack of such signs raised a big red flag to me, although I readily admit that it could have been just a bad day. It was just a jarring contrast to Chapel Hill, were all of us really enjoyed the obvious campus energy.

On the buses: Yes, we saw the busses. Curiously, one of the college guidebooks said that Duke students often enjoy the solitude of walking the mile or so between the freshman compound and the Duke campus. Go figure.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit

>> In our case, my son got the heebie-jeebies on a visit to Haverford, a perfectly nice school which I woulda loved to send him to. Toured Swarthmore the same day and he liked it very much. Who knows why the difference?

What a coincidence. My daughter and wife came home from their first visit to Phila schools with exactly the same opinion. Loved Swarthmore. Didn't like Haverford. To this day, I've never found out what, as you say, "spooked" them about Haverford.

Maybe it's just a compare and contrast thing that happens when you visit two schools on the same day? But, we visited William & Mary and UVa on the same day and liked them both, despite touring UVa at the end of the day in the pouring rain.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

And despite the fact that many rave about UNC Chapel Hill, my S hated his visit there. The tour guide was horrible (very unenthusiastic). Unfortunately S had a touch of the flu during his visit. UNC dropped very low on his list after the visit, after he had applied and been accepted out of state. According to him, there was much less of an intellectual ambiance there than at some of his other choices. Like you say, it all depends on what you want. UNC is a great school with a terrific reputation that may be perfect for some and not others.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit

>> What a generalization based on one day's visit. Something about the school peaked your interest or you would not have visited. How can you tell that a kid is an uber-SAT ivy reject by observing whether or not he plays frisbee on a particular day ????

Actually, my conclusions about admissions comes from specific "uber-stat" kids that I know personally from major prep and magnet feeder schools and the many, many more who post here. Duke is invariably on the standard-issue application lists.

It's a very good school academically, with a huge tobacco endowment, an impressive campus, very high admissions standards, growing prestige, and a real-feather-in-the cap of any student who goes there.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:27 pm: Edit

UNC-Chapel Hill and UVa never made it on my daughter's list either. She liked both a lot, but opted to focus on smaller schools.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:36 pm: Edit

What is an "uber-stat" kid? To be honest, I have never heard the term. Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:49 pm: Edit

sokkermom: Duke tends to take applicants with very high gpa & sat. At our local NE public hs the gc was completely bewildered one year when a kid accepted to one of the HYP group was denied at Duke. And wrote to find out why. Duke wrote back that regretfully the student hadn't had high enough stats for Duke. Thus for years at our high school, admittedly a bit out of the college admissions loop, Duke had the reputation for being the school almost impossible to get into and naturally became incredibly popular as an application choice.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

In the last few years, I worked with one young lady who took Duke over Princeton. She was truly a "Duke type" if you could characterise anyone that way, a brilliant young woman who knew her mind well. Stanford was her first choice but then came Duke, Princeton and some flagship state schools that she absolutely loved as well. But over all it seems that kids here get into Duke with lower stats than HPYS but higher than the rest of the ivies.

By S17 (S17) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 05:57 pm: Edit

I have a few counter-examples of the uber-stat theory about Duke.

The first one is myself. I have good test scores (1510, 35, 750 SAT II average) but a class rank out of the top 10 percent, albeit barely. Granted, this was due to my poor freshman year, but one would think that a stat-driven admissions process would weed me out immediately and move on to the thousands upon thousands of valedictorians and salutatorians who applied to Duke. I feel lucky to have overcame the odds - I think great recs and essays really stood out and made up for my lackluster rank. However, this was NOT the case at Stanford, where I am a legacy, and applied EA. I was deferred, sent in my perfect senior year grades, and was still rejected in the RD round, while others from my school with higher SAT I's and rank were accepted. One would think that a white, upper class, unhooked male would have a harder time getting into Duke than into Stanford as a legacy. I was similarly rejected from Harvard. I am not complaining about my situation one bit; I will probably be heading to Duke next year. However, it does seem to me that some schools (specifically Stanford) seem to be more stat-driven than Duke, at least in my case.

I also know two other people from my school, with SAT scores in the high 1300's, and mid 1400's, respectively, who were accepted. Yes they had straight A's, but Duke gets literally thousands of applicants with straight A's and 1500+ test scores. However, these two stood out because of their stellar activities and (what I am assuming to be) great recommendations and essays. These two were rejected/waitlisted at schools less selective than Duke, presumably because of their scores.

I am not saying that these three cases prove that Duke does not rely on stats, simply that they are not solely stat-driven as others have implied. In fact, I would venture to say that Duke relies less on stats than other schools in selecting a freshman class. I think Duke, like other schools, looks at scores and grades to get you in the ballpark, then relies on other more intangible (and valuable) factors to accept. This is the widely accepted view of ultra-selective admissions; I think it especially applies to Duke.

That's my two cents.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

There is a look the Duke admissions office in the book, "Admisisons Confidential" by Rachael Toor, an ex (thank god) Duke adcom. Her attitude comes across as stunningly arrogant and condescending. Hopefully she is not representative of the Duke adcoms.

The book makes an interesting contrast to "The Gatekeepers" about Wesleyan admissions or "A if for Admisssion" about Dartmouth admissions. While I found many aspects of the admissions process at Wesleyan and Dartmouth troubling, I came away from both books with the sense the adcoms were pretty decent folk, who championed the high school student applicants, and approached an impossible job with some humanity. I found no evidence of the same in Rachael Toor's book.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 07:23 pm: Edit

S17: Excellent post

You sound like a great kid. Everyone we have talked to at Duke seems very well rounded. My S is also a counter to the uber stat theory at Duke. Like you, he is involved with a lot outside of the stats. His stats are within the acceptance level of most of the top schools. However, he is also a four year three sport (not recruited)athlete (captain of all 3 senior year) with 12 varsity letters, an accomplished actor, volunteers for important medical causes, volunteered for three summers at youth theater program, has worked at the same summer camp for five years, was elected to student council by his peers, etc. He also wrote some awesome essays and had great rec's from teachers who really like his personality and sense of humor.
Like you and other Duke students and alumni we have met, we have seen that the "typical" Duke student is not driven by stats, but rather appears to be passionate about life in general.

By Par72 (Par72) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Duke is a great school with unlimited potential. Factor in weather,campus,sports-school spirit,and alumni network, DUKE offers a lot.

By Mushnik (Mushnik) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 09:34 am: Edit

"Actually, my conclusions about admissions comes from specific "uber-stat" kids that I know personally from major prep and magnet feeder schools and the many, many more who post here. Duke is invariably on the standard-issue application lists."

I seriously doubt you know many "uber-stat" kids from major prep and magnet feeder schools, whatever those are supposed to be, in your mind. I happen to attend a "major prep" school and there is no such thing as a "standard-issue application list". Students are provided guidance to find a range of schools that fit their interests and talents. It's quite obvious that your child wasn't able to measure up to the standards at Duke, or UNC, or UVA for that matter. If you haven't noticed, all the negative comments on this board can be traced back to a disgruntled student or parent who was rejected or waitlisted.

Hey I didn't get into Yale, my first choice, and I was certainly qualified, but you don't see me dissing Yale. Duke had 16,600 applicants for 1600 spots, most of whom were very qualified. If you bothered to research anything about Duke, or any other top level university, other than how many frisbees are thrown in April, you would know all of the factors that are carefully considered, and yes stats are among them. They also consider the strength of your hs program, as well as ec's, rec's and essays, just like any other university.

So, if you can't offer any intelligent infomation to someone who asked for advice, then stay away. Whining doesn't help anyone.

And, by the way, I've visited Duke several times in the last four years, and have never experienced anything close to what you allegedly did. Duke is an extremely vibrant place, full of intelligent, passionate people, and that includes students, faculty and staff. Everyone we met, and everyone I know who goes to Duke, is intelligent, friendly and outgoing. And some of them have even been know to shout and toss a frisbee now and then, responsibly, of course.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:56 am: Edit

Mushnik:

>> It's quite obvious that your child wasn't able to measure up to the standards at Duke, or UNC, or UVA for that matter. If you haven't noticed, all the negative comments on this board can be traced back to a disgruntled student or parent who was rejected or waitlisted.<<

Yes. That must be it. My daughter did have a rough go of it in college admissions process, only getting accepted by one school. But, as you say, we obviously didn't understand what top schools look for in applicants. I'm sure that she'll get a decent education, even at a the kind of school she will be atttending.

I could only dream of my child being in the same league of confidence, intellect, and perceptiveness as a top student such as yourself. With your degree of confidence and charm, a prep school background, and (I can only imagine) impressive SAT scores, you would be quite a catch at for a place like Duke!

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:18 am: Edit

Interesteddad:

After reading many of your posts, I am not sure you do understand what top schools look for in an applicant. I am sorry that you are bitter about your daughter's college application process. You shouldn't condemn the success or excitement of others.

What's wrong with charm, confidence, intellect,a great prep education, and good test scores? Am I missing something? I think if I were an adcom I would look at all of those as wonderful attributes.

By Garland (Garland) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:27 am: Edit

InterestedDad's D was accepted to Swarthmore ED.

By Interesteddad (Interesteddad) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:36 am: Edit

Who is condemning?

Duke was one of the two colleges and universities we most wanted to visit on my daughter's "southern tour". Why? Because it's an excellent school.

She ended up not liking it and I explained why. Big deal. She ended up not liking Harvard, either. It's still a good school. When you visit a couple dozen schools and whittle the list down to six or eight, there are going to be a lot of good schools that you don't like, for many different reassons, often as a result of a campus visit. Doesn't mean they aren't excellent schools.

Heck, there have been lots of people who don't like the school my daughter will be attending. Spiro Agnew hated it; he gave his reasons; duly noted.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:39 am: Edit

Must have missed the sarcasm. He stated he was bitter about the application process. Perhaps his D is having second thoughts about applying ED to a LAC and wishes she applied to a wider range of schools? Not sure why he is so negative about other non LAC top schools.

By Samman (Samman) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:51 am: Edit

Emotions tend to run high when such an important decision needs to be made. Interesteddad's last comments were more indicative of his usual posts, although still rather arrogant. His reply to mushnik was both extremely sarcastic as well as arrogant. And his initial comments on Duke were rather trivial, but they still stirred many emotions.

Congratulations on your daughter's success. I'm sure she'll do fine at Swathmore.

Can we please stop bickering and posturing and get back to the original poster's question?

By Vadad (Vadad) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:56 am: Edit

Not that the guy needs me to defend him, but Interesteddad's posts, particularly his impressions about how adcoms view and process applications, have been enormously helpful to us. Indeed, I suspect his suggestions may have contributed to a very successful process for my D this year. His impressions of his "southern tour" from the perspective of a New Jersey-ite have been a helpful check against my own. It so happens we had the same impression of Duke ON OUR VISIT AND TOUR. Others, obviously, have different impressions; Duke has no problem filling its classes. Two kids graduating from Duke this Spring that I know are great kids, had a great time, and believe they got a great education there.
An admissions visit may be colored by an arrogant adcom officer or an indifferent tour guide. The next group might get the kind adcom officer and the effusive tour guide. Visiting a school for half a day may not give an accurate reflection of life as a student at the institution.
Sokkermom: You definitely missed the sarcasm. Congrats on your S's decision. He'll wish he went to UVA in football season and be glad he's at Duke in basketball season. (that was a joke, by the way)

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Vadad: LOL

I haven't been lurking on this board long enough to get a historical perspective on sarcastic comments. I'm a quick study though!

By Eadad (Eadad) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

I think we need to cut Interesteddad some slack. He is merely offering his opinion based on his visit. Here is another observation (albeit third party)from last week.

We were in Chapel Hill last week for a visit. On our ride to the airport we shared a van with three college counselors (guidance counselors) from three very prestigious prep schools who were there for a Robertson's Scholars meeting with both Duke and UNC. Incidentally, we were "active listeners" and not participants in what follows.

It was quite interesting to hear/overhear their conversation. To a person they were "in love" with the atmosphere at UNC and openly expressed how "happy" and "friendly" everyone appeared. By contrast, they all said that they felt that there seemed to be a pall over the Duke campus with students walking alone, heads down (as Interesteddad said earlier) and generally having no fun. One went so far as to say that the only negative of the Robertson in her opinion, was having to spend time living at Duke!!

We have friends that have children who attended Duke and loved it but they were recruited athletes (volleyball and soccer) so I am not sure if the experience they had would carry over.

They all have said that it does have a rather homogenous student body in that it has more of a "preppy" atmosphere than they had expected with a high degree of conformity of dress and behavior even among the internationals.

Duke is a great school. Their ability to steal Richard Brodhead from Yale as their new President is definitely a coup and a major plus for the future of Duke. He is loved and revered and will be sorely missed at Yale. Along with being a great English professor,he is the person credited most with helping to reshape and rebuild Yale's reputation as an undergraduate friendly institution. After hearing that news in December I tried to get my son to add Duke to his list but by then he was mentally "finished" with the application process.

By Beeber (Beeber) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Sokkermom,

To return to your questions about whether or not students are happy and whether or not they are nurtured, here are my observations. I am a Duke graduate and the parent of one of those “uber stat” children. She applied to Duke, was accepted and chose to go elsewhere. Several of her friends attend Duke.

I think Duke students are happy. The discussion about them walking with heads down and not smiling reminds me of discussions elsewhere on this board about the difference between New Yorkers and, I think in this particular discussion, west coasters. There are a lot of students from New York and New Jersey at Duke. I don’t think walking with heads down is a sign of unhappiness. During admitted student days last year, we were on campus on one of those glorious spring days with the temperature in the upper 70s. The students were all out sunning and some appeared quite happy indeed.

On the other hand, while the West Campus is beautiful, several days of rain can make it a gray, depressing place. Some days you feel that one more dripping gargoyle will push you over the edge. But the sun always returns.

Duke is a big adjustment for freshmen. Like similar schools, the students arrive as the top performers at their respective high schools. It takes some time to become comfortable with being one among a couple of thousand. Many students’ first grades shock them. For most students the workload is an adjustment also. There is a lot of it. This is not a particularly nurturing time. However, except for a few introductory lecture classes, most classes are small. Professors know the students and students must be prepared for class. Problems are noticed.

One small note about allergies. The story goes that if you have allergies, they will be much worse at Duke. If you’ve never had allergies, you’ll develop them while there. The Duke Gardens and campus are planted with a wide variety of flora – some of the specimens are unique. The mix of pollens is lethal.

I’m sure you’ve heard that Durham is no college town. It is true. Duke and Durham and Duke students and Durham residents have a real love/hate relationship. The good news is that if you want to experience a great college town, you can drive 15 miles to Chapel Hill -–and many do.

I’m not sure what student life is like now that freshmen are all on East Campus. It seems that theories of residential life have come full circle. When I was a student at Duke, they abolished all-freshmen dorms because they thought it wasn’t good to isolate freshmen in a dorm without upperclassmen. I guess now it is ok to put all freshmen on a campus together. I’ve read some complaining or wonder about living on East Campus and having most classes on West Campus. It really isn’t a problem. The busses run constantly. Sometimes it even felt good to return to East Campus after a day of classes on West.

I hope this is helpful.

By Sokkermom (Sokkermom) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Beeber:

Thank you so much!!! I actually think that Dak started the thread, but I am delighted that you took the time to voice your opinion based on first hand knowledge/ experience.
S will be going down next Monday to Blue Devil Day. (I agree that Charlottesville is a much better college town than Durham.)

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Beeber, W&M is also a "hell" for those allergic to pollen. It has more flora than some botanical gardens and I think S was allergic to most of it. He almost went into shock--face and eyes swelled up, trouble breathing, had to get an epi shot ASAP. As I was admiring the beautiful campus, he was gasping for breath. Some of the older buildings and dorm had mold in them--I did not notice, but he surely did as did his immune system. One whiff and he nearly passed out. It was the only school where he had that reaction.

Strangely enough Charlottesville does not have the same problem. He was fine there.

By Pasta (Pasta) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit

It's interesting to read these posts regarding various individuals' "takes" on their campus visits.
My son and I went to visit UPenn on a Sat. in the Fall -- arrived around 10 a.m. -- wondered "where is everybody???" Place seemed very quiet and it was a sunny, warm day. So we wandered around, really enjoyed the campus surroundings but thought -- where are the students?? By about noon and thereafter, the campus started filling up with kids juggling, tossing footballs, sunbathing, playing volleyball, EATING! I realized that we just had to wait until everyone WOKE UP. I had forgotten the college student's favorite pasttime of SLEEPING IN!
We had a great time. My son applied ED and was lucky enough to be accepted.
I think he'll enjoy sleeping and playing (and hopefully studying) at Penn!

By Wlrsqtr (Wlrsqtr) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Okay I didn't love Duke cause I'm kind of a public college person. But it is beautiful and the students seemed very friendly (and preppy) to me (even on a cold day with nasty weather). When D stayed overnight the whole dorm was downstairs at midnight watching baseball playoffs and they all went out at 2am on a Thursday. She loved it and she hates sports. The ivy envy comment is ridiculus for a school as good a Duke. It just doesn't hold up if you look at the ivy acceptances of the kids I know accepted and seriously considering Duke. Further the kids I know would be desicribed by most as well rounded, unusually smart, fun kids and not piece parts of some engneered well rounded class made of of absurdly directed people. I think that is a Harvard thing.

By Whatella (Whatella) on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Many of my fellow North Carolinians do not consider Duke a "southern" school. UNC, Wake Forest, UVA, and Vanderbilt are southern schools. Duke is a northern school stuck in Durham. Hence, the less friendly atmosphere.

My son applied to Duke under duress (my foolish fault, I thought he might change his attitude)and was accepted, but won't even spend the night to check it out. He's heard of too many North Carolinians who were unhappy there. Duke students have a reputation of being snobby and condescending to UNC. The reverse may be true for UNC students; I don't know. There's a good reason for the Robertson Scholars, but I'm not sure how well the outreach program is working!

Still, Duke is an excellent school and I would be fine with it if my son liked it. Right now he's leaning toward Vanderbilt (very nice scholarship) or UNC.

By Dukegirl06 (Dukegirl06) on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 03:33 am: Edit

I realize that I'm about 4 months late on this, but as a Duke student I just wanted to say that pretty much everyone I know on campus (including myself) loves it there and wouldn't want to be anywhere else. It is important to note that we do seem to have kind of a rollercoaster of... I'm not sure if outgoingness (albeit not being a word) is the right way of putting it.

As some people have pointed out, we as a student body and as individuals are extremely well rounded, which often translates to extremely busy. I have found that at least for myself I have periods where everything gets revved up into a really high gear and then periods where it's sort of a down time. But for many of us, that IS what makes us happy. Sure sometimes we complain or get a little burnt out, but I think it really comes out in the downtime or over breaks when we all start to go crazy with nothing to do and without meetings or classes or activities every second of every day.

To reiterate one point- most of the Duke students I know are indeed very well rounded and many of them are suprisingly below what one would expect of a stat-focussed admissions program. All of my friends (and who knows, maybe I just got really lucky?) are involved in numerous activities spanning from greek life to sports (varsity, club, IM or just recreational) to academics and research to theater to music to leadership to service... it just goes on and on. I chose Duke, coming from the west coast, because it is a place where we really do know how to balance rigorous academics with the FUN part of college.

So I guess the moral of the story is, it may not be for everyone and nobody is happy all the time, but Duke is a wonderful place and I'd like to welcome all of those families above who are becoming a part of it!