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Parents,
I am asking you parents for advice because it is a million times better than that of students. I am delighted to have been accepted to:

-Duke
-Pomona
-Northwestern (accepted to Integrated Science Program)
-A few state schools with National Merit full rides

I realize at this point, I basically can't go wrong, and that is exciting. However, I want to make sure I pick the school that is best for me, not simply best.

I'll just preface this with some information about myself: I am from the Midwest, where I have lived my whole life. I plan on majoring in math and biology, while fulfilling the pre-med requirements. The son of a doctor, I plan on going to med school. I come from an upper-class, conservative neighborhood, but a public, diverse high school and overall liberal college town.

Northwestern is a great school, but I am from the Midwest and want to get away from home, at least for undergraduate. Unless somebody can convince me that doing the ISP is worth it, I would rather go to a coast.

The state schools with tuition, room, board, and stipend are tempting, but money isn't too much of an issue. I know that sounds selfish, but my parents have told me that they will pay the 40K+ price for Duke, Pomona, or Northwestern. Need-based aid is out of the question. I am also concerned that there will be a paucity of those who actually love learning. So I've ruled out the generous merit scholarships.

This of course leaves only Duke and Pomona, both awesome schools. My pros and cons for each:

Duke Pros
1. Medical school - great pre-med program, research opportunities
2. Math and science departments are outstanding
3. Name recognition for medical school applications
4. More people of similar political and religious backgrounds

Cons
1. Large classes?
2. I'm afraid I won't get the personal contact with professors
3. It's nice weather, but it isn't Claremont, CA

Pomona Pros
1. It is overall a great school, from what I've heard and seen
2. Can take classes at Harvey Mudd, which is better (?) than Duke in the math and sciences
3. Laid-back atmosphere
4. Weather

Pomona Cons
1. It is simply not as world reknowned, which could prove important when applying for medical school, residencies, jobs, etc.
2. Lacks the same range of classes available at a University.
3. No medical school.


So, there we have it. I am interested in hearing what the parents think. Do you agree/disagree with my analysis? Any personal experience with the schools? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

By Wlrsqtr (Wlrsqtr) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Not sure I have great advice D is also in at Duke and Northwestern ISP plus some others. Do you know much about ISP? Pros and Cons?
Kids around here accepted to Pomona are not a lot different (liberal/conservative wise) than those going to Duke but this is an Eastern liberal but somewhat preppy community. May not be typical of either school. Actually it is kind of weird because very few kids here fit the sterotype of the school they are accepted at (other than top school students are pretty smart). Not sure I could tell the potential naval academy student from the Reed student yet. As far as Pomona goes I would not worry about reputation if you are sure you are going to medical school. I'm sure Pomonas reputation is sufficiently widespread within university communities. However, if you are talking about reputation in the workplace, Duke wins hands down.

By Perry (Perry) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:18 pm: Edit

The prestige factor should not be a consideration in deciding between the two schools. They are both excellent and neither one would put you at a disadvantage if and when you decide to apply to medical school.

There's the question of location. Duke Univ. is in Durham, NC, a run down old industial city that appears to be on the rebound; Pomona is on the west coast in sunny California.

Most important is how each school matches up to your specific interests. Which school has the best course offerings for pre-med and which would prepare you best for your prospective future profession. You may also want to look at the credentials of the faculty. If they are active in research and publication, then they are likely to be fully engaged in their respective professions and on top of the lastest research -- thus, theoretically at least -- being better teachers. If the internship possibilities are substantially better at one place, then this too should be a substantial factor in your calculations.

Good luck to you,

By Shitakirimusume (Shitakirimusume) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:35 pm: Edit

>Pomona is on the west coast in sunny California.

1. Pomona is not the top notch place in LA.

Average Price for houses. (3 bedrooms 1650 Sq with
small lot.)

WestLA Over 1 Mil
Pasadena around 450-550K
Southbay around 550-650K
Irvine around 650-800 (not near the beach)
Pomona around 250-350K
(as far as LA goes less preferred place to live)

Sunny?

Well Pomona has serious smog problem.
Sometimes you cannot see the mountain in front of you.

And nothing to do around Pomona Campus.

It is not that safe place either.(it is not as bad as USC
area though.)
Just FYI.

By Perry (Perry) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:39 pm: Edit

No wonder Californians keep moving to Colorado -- at least when there were jobs available in the state.

By Arizonamom (Arizonamom) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Pomona kids voted #2 under happiest students in the country by Princeton Review, happy is good! Classes are very small and it is very well known by med schools, has similar acceptance rates to Duke. You can take classes at all 5 schools so there is much variety. Duke is more well known to friends/neighbors if that is important. It is nice to have that recognition but to those that count, grad/medical school both are equal and very highly regarded. Both are great schools and you will probably be very happy either place. I know people who have gone to Pomona and they rave about it and then at Duke there is that basketball which pulls the community together. Spend a night at both and follow your gut.The answer does become clear as you muddle through the process. That said, my son will most likely end up at Pomona. The more he explores it the more excited he is becoming-personal attention from profs, class size of 14 is most typical, great climate, laid back style and attitude etc. Let me know what you decide- 2 great choices!!

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Shitak, I'm sorry, but that was a really lame post. Pomona is not in Pomona, it is in Claremont, which is a pleasant though not exciting community. I know someone who grew up there and he loved it.

The smog is bad in the summer and early fall, when the regular students would tend not to be there. I was there in October--right after the fires in fact--and it was clear as a bell and very beautiful. As the poster above noted, Pomona rates high on the happy student rating. It is the fourth rated liberal arts college in the country.

My son spent a weekend there and there was plenty to do, including a candelight dinner celebrating the end of the first semester for freshmen, a comedy night, and sport events. Oh and by the way the kids study. There are five colleges, LA is basically next door.

Stop criticizing everything mindlessly and get a grip. And I don't have an opinion on the Duke/Pomona issue by the way.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Interesting answers ... is there someone who makes a school selection based on the price of houses in the city?

That must be the dumbest argument I've ever read on CC. I guess that for Shitaki a community college in San Francisco must be better than Rice in Houston. Oh I forgot, we also should subscribe to the Weather Channel to help us in making the appropriate decisions.

/sigh

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

...and furthermore, because that made me so mad, I checked and Claremont's average housing price is $440,000. Xiggi's point of course is valid; but I assume that he was somehow equating housing prices with safety or something.

S17, if you can't visit the schools, it may be a bit tougher to choose. You've got 3 great choices but different because of regional differences, size differences, weather differences. Try to read as much as you can if you can't visit--princeton review online, for instance, the college websites to see what is going on on campus, the strength of the departments, etc. I assume you are getting the course catalogs, so maybe that will help a little bit, although all 3 surely have all the prerequisites for pre-med.

It is probably more how well you do once you're at one of these schools that counts, rather than the name of the school. Good luck deciding.

And actually, Xiggi, for certain wimpy California types, periodically scanning the weather sites of the various colleges WAS a factor at our house!! 60 degrees and sunny in February versus minus 5 degrees....made a difference to one teenager I know.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

I'd be interested in what the state school options are. Some midwestern universities are excellent for a pre-med program, and money could be saved for med school.

I like LACs, so Pomona would be my pick, but I suggest that investigate with the admissions and registrar's office at both Pomona and Harvey Mudd if you would be able to get into the specific Harvey Mudd classes you would be most interested in. As I have posted on other threads, an admission rep from one of the Claremont consortium schools told me that there are some departments and classes (mostly upper-level) at Pomona, CMC and Harvey Mudd that are may be tough to access if you do not go to that particular school.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Patient~

It seems that gross generalizations -like my comment about the weather- are always silly. I understand your viewpoint about comparing the various zones of the US. I am guilty of the same: I never considered applying to schools in frigid zones and only looked at "mediterranean" or "sub-tropical" climates. I remember reading the -very nice brochure- for Amherst, then checking the winter temperatures, and decide to pass. I am equally wimpy!

My comment should have clearer that it was targeted at the occasional fog issues in Claremont.

By S17 (S17) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Wow, great answers! Thanks everyone. I will definitely follow the advice of ArizonaMom and visit both. I am working out the logistics of such with my parents this weekend, as the clock is ticking.

Reidmc,
You bring up a valid point. I already have a fair amount of advanced math standing, so I will check with Pomona to see how easily I can take the upper-level Harvey Mudd classes that Pomona just doesn't offer. (Does anybody have D/S with personal experience here?) As for the state school issue, my parents are actually discouraging me from taking those offers. Like I said, money isn't too much of an issue, even with a private university and med school. My dad is adamant that the "overall experience" is superior at a duke or pomona and worth the full price. Plus, I have found a general atmosphere of academic apathy during campus visits that repulsed me.

Wlrsqtr,
I don't know much about ISP, other than what I've read in the guidebooks. Some things about it appeal to me: especially small classes, facilities open 24 hours. One thing about it that I don't like, though, is the requirements in all types of science, geology, astronomy, etc. I'd rather just focus on biology and chemistry.

Perry and others,
I am not interested in Duke for the prestige, just the grad school placement. I was unsure that the two are equal in terms of medical school acceptance rates. However, it is nice to know that attending one will not hamper my opportunities.

Xiggi,
While you have already cleared this up, I must add that I consider weather to be a component of the "lifestyle" category. It's like dorms - they really shouldn't affect your academic performance, but they are just an added bonus. Furthermore, the weather at both is so much nicer than that of my home state - it's 30 degrees out on April 3rd!

I will visit both within the next few weeks and make a decision, probably "going with my gut" as ArizonaMom said. I feel lucky to have such great choices, and I appreciate all the suggestions. Thanks.

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:52 pm: Edit

S17, good luck and let us know where you land! By the way, my son attended two classes while there, a history class where he said the professor seemed like one of the brightest people he had ever heard, and a linear algebra class that he also felt was quite good.

By Gnatcire (Gnatcire) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 05:17 am: Edit

Though I am not a parent, I have some of my own experience as a Pomona student and through my best friend who actually attends Duke.

You can definately take upper-level math classes at HMC (I have a friend who is doing that this semester), and also, cross-registering at the other colleges allows 2,500 different class options (which might not be as much as Duke, but is still pretty nice considering that it is a LAC).

My friend at Duke is actually part of a first-year program that I think is called FOCUS, which allows first-years to be in much smaller classes. I was really surprised by my friend's class sizes, which were comparable to Pomona's. I think that you even have class during dinner with your professor for one part of the program. One thing I heard, however, is that students either love it or hate it. Maybe you should look into that and see if that interests you.

By S17 (S17) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Thank you Patient and Gnatcire. I am visiting both in the next couple weeks, then I will let you know. All the comments have been great and have given me ideas to check out. Thanks again.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

>>Pomona is not in Pomona, it is in Claremont<<

True, but the cities of Pomona and Claremont are right next door to each other, so it's not like we are talking about different parts of the country here. However, I do agree that looking at housing prices is a pretty foolish way to choose a college (unless the kid is planning on buying a house instead of staying in the dorms).

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Coureur, sorry but I don't think it matters much. Frankly, it would be like saying that Stanford is in East Palo Alto. (East Palo Alto and Palo Alto are separated from each other by about 100 yards of overpass) They are two very different communities and the poster in question didn't even apparently know where the college was.

What the poster said was misleading and the geographic proximity is inconsequential because what matters is the community that the school is nestled into, and that is Claremont. I remember thinking that the houses on the edge of Pomona COLLEGE were delightful, old-ish looking houses that had that comfortable professorial feel. The only "criticism" that I have heard about Claremont is that it tends to have a slightly older population and maybe it isn't a hip young college town.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 06:32 pm: Edit

>>The only "criticism" that I have heard about Claremont is that it tends to have a slightly older population and maybe it isn't a hip young college town<<

That and the smog. Shitakirimusme's statement about sometimes not being able to see the mountains right in front of you is correct. Not all the time, but I have seen that phenomenon in Claremont myself. But I agree with you that data about the house prices in Pomona is nonsense for evaluating Pomona College.

By Patient (Patient) on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 08:33 pm: Edit

Oh and S17, in case you think we've forgotten YOU, we haven't! Can't wait to hear your decision, and the impressions or thoughts that led up to it. You're going to have a great time.

By S17 (S17) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Patient,
I talked it over with my parents and have lined up visits. I'll get back to everyone in a few weeks with the final word. Thanks again.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit

My guess would be that the Duke degree would not help you any more in graduate school admissions than the Pomona degree. Both are excellent schools and graduate programmes (whether it be medicine, grad, business, etc) will recognize that. Name recognition within an academic community and outside of it are entirely different things.

It is possible that you could be better off as a Pomona pre-med rather than a Duke pre-med. If the classes are smaller and you could get more interaction with the faculty, then you'll have a much better chance at getting good, personal, and insightful recommendations. Some of my friends applying to med schools have sent upwards of five recs to each school - you might be hard-pressed to get five professors to speak knowledgably about you if you were to go to a larger university.

By S17 (S17) on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 01:15 am: Edit

Well, I have an update for everyone.

I visited Duke last weekend for the Blue Devil Days. I arrived on Sunday and met with a student who attended my high school who is a current sophomore. This started the trip out on a sour note - he is very similar to me, being pre-med and taking many of the classes I will take. He was very negative about the whole experience, but he tends to be a hard-to-please guy who, I think, would be unhappy anywhere thanks to parental pressure and so forth.

Sunday night I hooked up with a host. The interesting thing is that fraternities and sororities give points to their members for hosting prospective freshmen. Thus my friends and I were paired with hosts that seemed to be a little more into the party scene than we prefer. It was actually kind of shocking to see such brilliant people engaging in such stupid activities. The stay was alright, I guess, but after the first night I was dismayed by the social aspect.

It got better on Monday, though. There were plenty of activities. I met with professors of math, bio, and chem. Listened to a presentation by the pre-med advisor; over 90 percent of Duke students get into at least one med school. I really felt that the academics were just too hard to pass up. I was still reserved about the social life, though.

Monday night soothed my fears. I met with another student who attended my high school, a junior, who also has very similar interests to mine own: major in bio, pre-med, etc. He was much more upbeat, basically professing his love fr Duke and admitting that, while classes are hard, they are certainly manageable if you put your mind to it. That night I found a lot of nice, smart people who weren't wasting away their freshmen year at frat parties. This was reassuring; I think if I join the substance-free dorm, I'll find plenty of people to befriend.

So the final choice is Duke. My parents said they will pay for a trip to Pomona this weekend, but I just don't think it's necessary. Duke has everything I want in a college. I feel sort of guilty disregarding Pomona, and it is a great school. The huge advantage to Duke is the proximity of medical research opportunities, this is something Pomona just doesn't offer. I do think there is something to be said about a small, liberal arts college that I may someday regret experiencing. I do feel, however, that I can get a semblance of that feeling if I work to develop relationships with the Duke faculty.

So Duke it is. If there are any parents of juniors that want to hear more about my impressions of the school, let me know. Thanks everyone for their help.