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I am posting this in the hope that it wil help those of you whose child will not necessarily be in the Ivy League applicant pool. DD is a senior now-mid 1100 SAT's and a B/C student (unweighted), some honors/AP classes, 2 sports, lots of EC's. I went to a tier 1 LAC and was most familiar with the schools in that "range." Unfortunately, there is not a lot written about schools outside of the HYP, top tier or big university world. So...we bit the bullet and visited 15 schools in the last year and a half. I thought I would share some brief thoughts on each school we visited in the hope that theinformation will help other kids in her shoes.

The Schools:
1)Randolph-Macon College-outside Richmond-small-pretty campus-very hands-on (Dean of Admissions met with us and 1 other visiting family). DD very impressed with history prof who stopped on his way to class to chat with us. Unfortunately, while upperclass dorms were nice, DD did not like the looks of frosh dorms or the dining hall. Also, tour guide was a freshman who went home every weekend and therefore could not tell us about weekend activities. Nice kids, though.
2)Lynchburg College-very pretty campus-well-organized Open House program-the school gave a great overview of academics, student life and Honors/study abroad-students seemed friendly and very happy to be there-students were immersed in a Saturday morning flag football tourney called the "Turkey Bowl"-dorms were nice-DD very interested in the school's plan to build a new business/communications building with a trading room (should be done next year).
3) Saint Joseph's University-pretty campus bordering Philadelphia and a suburb-nice dorms-great business program facilities-all students in business program get laptops-DD impressed with business program and integration of technology-I was concerned about crowding in dorms but was told they have a new dorm going up which should be done by the fall. DD also liked the student enthusiasm about the basketball team!
4) Rider University-a bad move to go to 2 schools in 1 day-DD very grumpy and did not like their Open House-somewhat disorganized-students seemed very nice but talked too much about having pizza parties-did not tour dorms as son did summer program there and stayed overnight.
5) Susquehanna U.-beautiful campus-articulate, friendly students-DD loved athletic faclities and dorms there-impressed with business program-faculty and staff very approachable and warm-in fact, at the Open House, the President started walking with us and chatting with us, which DD thought was great!
6)Moravian College-pretty campus and downtown area-although the school has 2 campuses (about a mile apart)-nice tour guide, but DD was concerned that the business program did not use a lot of technology-history program appears strong. Seemed pretty quiet on the Saturday we were there.
7)Albright College-one of the best tour guides we had-full of personality and enthusiasm for the school-facilities seemed to need a little sprucing up (although we have read that there is a long range plan to put money into renovating facilities there). Not much evidence of technology in the classroom. Seemed to have a focus on student athletes.
8) U of Scranton-pretty campus, but compact-good Open House program-admissions rep very helpful-kids seemed happy and friendly-dorms nice, but did not have the greatest view-businessprogram seemed very good with nice new facilities-DD liked the fact that on a Saturday kids came to dining hall in PJ's and had choice of 40 cereals and used very amusing dining hall comment bulletin board-we have heard lots of positives about the school-city it is in is a little depressing.
9) Quinnipiac U-although DD herself is pretty, she was turned off by the fact that everyone there was pretty, too! Nice facilities for communications/business and very nice dorms-Open House very well attended and so we did not get much personal attention. My sister went there and loved it.
10) Bryant College-beautiful campus but very modern-did not think DD would like it because she had been gravitating toward the gothic looking or ivy-covered traditional campus previously (all that ivy she was exposed to when she visited Mom's alma mater-not an Ivy but very traditional)-DD fell head over heels in love with Bryant-best tour guide-great business facilities and terrific ergonomically correct chairs in library.
11) Merrimack College-in a pretty area-grounds were nice but tour guide kind of cold-buildings need a little sprucing up-did not see much use of technology in business program.
12) Bentley College-nice campus-amazing trading room and marketing focus group room-very hilly campus-did not have a "warm" feeling but DD impressed with facilities.
13) Northeastern U.-DD swore she would love it but did not-tour on Spring Break was a real cattle call-nice dorms but DD felt overwhelmed with size-this ended her argument with me about large schools as it made her realize that a smaller school would be best for her. Close friend is now a freshman there and absolutely loves it.
14) Wagner College-very pretty campus-you would never know you were in Staten Island-friendly tour guide-amazing views of lower Manhatten from freshman dorms-DD thought there was not enough technology in business classrooms, but internship opps would be amazing.
15) West Chester U-another school that a good friend attends-students very friendly-terrific bookstore-pretty campus (for the most part)-DD and I were turned off by the fact that even after you are admitted, you are still "business undeclared" and must apply for admission to the School of Business. Great school for a kid that is in marching band as theirs is huge!

Of these schools, DD applied to 7 (plus 2 we did not visit)-she's in at 3 so far (plus 1 we did not visit)-but I will wait until March to post final stats (and my thoughts on the admission process)in case anyone is interested.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 05:12 pm: Edit

That was really nice of you to give that feedback for other parents, particularly since that group of schools has not been referred to much here. Congrats to your daughter in already having some admissions! Must feel good! Did you ever look into University of Hartford? I have a brother who went there for business. Seems as if it might have fit your D's criteria. Anyhow, hope she gets into some of her first choices!
Susan

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 08:30 pm: Edit

I know someone who will really enjoy reading this post. Thanks for sharing.

By Patient (Patient) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 09:48 pm: Edit

Along these lines, I think, I just checked out the book Harvard Schmarvard by Jay Matthews. In the back of the book he lists 100 (I think) underappreciated colleges and what makes them special.

Thanks so much for sharing this information.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Bxian, as the mother of a D. who sounds a lot like your daughter in terms of academics and interests (keep the history interest and switch business for art), I do so appreciate your sharing this information. It is really hard to get the details on schools like these - although I know that Jamimom here has spoken highly about Susquehanna. I think your approach is also a good one - tour a lot of schools in order to narrow down what you need and want. Thanks again.

By the way - which schools did your DD end up applying to?

By Pattykk (Pattykk) on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit

I am so appreciative of the tone on this message board. The posters here are gentle and respectful, for the most part. I have given up "the other board." Thanks, Bxian for your post. I have a son who loves history and is similar to your daughter.

By Starbucksfreak (Starbucksfreak) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:48 am: Edit

GREAT POST!!

Just a personal plug, or should I say anti-plus here...do not even CONSIDER attending RIDER UNIVERSITY (trying not to gag here...it was Rider COllege when I attended and I can't imagine that pitiful library ever satisfying any halfway serious student...)

This is a suitcase school on weekends, students are primarily from NJ and most within an hour of home. Mostly rich, rich kids...a lot of them JAPs or Mafia kids...no joke. Academics were good in business and education when I was there, but terrible in Liberal Arts. Math is my worst subject, but I never attended Finite Math class, never bought the book, took the weekly 10-multiple-choice-question quizzes and got an A in the class...I was the top student in every class, without trying, and most were amazed I broke 1000 on the SATs. I felt my 8th grade classes had been harder!

This is a MAJOR party school, and I really loved that social scene my freshman year!! But the booze-soaked atmosphere so overclouded the rich party student profile there that by Janurary I couldn't wait to leave. I transferred to UNC and loved it.

The absolutely worst thing about Rider, however (and this may have changed in 20 years) was the FOOD. If it could even be called that!!! Typical meal: (rotated every 5 days, no choices in entrees):overcooked lasagna pasta with watered down tomato sauce (not marinara( dumped on top). The college hired the mentally retarded to serve food in order to get a tax break, and these people were unpredicatable: I had food flung in my face one day when I asked for an extra serving of pizza. Other times, they would just refuse to put food on your plate at all. I lived on takeout (expensive there) and doughnuts.

Also, the administration SUCKED and made everything as difficult as possible! I had a 5 on the AP English test and they snidely informed me that it might not be enough to exempt me from English 101, which was a joke class there. I stood my ground until they relented, but it was a trial. The campus police raided rooms daily and even stole from students during "fire drills" while the kids stood outside in the cold for an hour in the middle of the night. Oh, and the campus police ticketed students for not coming to a full stop in the middle of the night, on campus, in the completely quiet parking lot, on many occasions. I hate this school. (tell us how you really feel, huh?)

I sure hope things have changed in 20 years. I'd pay money never to lay eyes on that place...sorry to vent (whew!) but I can't stand to think of anyone wasting their money there...lol.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Starbucksfreak - I had a good chuckle when I read your post about Rider. I had a friend who went there about 25 years ago. When she was accepted, the Guidance Counselors at our school were amazed - she was a nice girl but dumb as the proverbial rock. She could barely read and write. She graduated from Rider with honors and went on to a long career as a flight attendent.

But your post brings up another issue that I've been thinking about. It's obvious that if your kid is Harvard or such ability, you're going to have certain reassurances about the quality of education you're paying for - what becomes difficult to gage, however, is quality in second and third tier schools and whether they will provide enough intellectual growth for a student. Does anybody have any thoughts on how to evaluate this? What are the important factors to weigh?

By Bxian (Bxian) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

soozievt-actually, DD has applied to the University of Hartford and was accepted. We did not visit (we were going to-but ran out of energy!) There is so little info. about U. Hartford-if you could give me some feedback on your brother's experiences, I would appreciate it!

By Bxian (Bxian) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Carolyn-I will post info. on where she applied/got in a little later on-when the results are all in. I am glad my post was helpful (and hopefully encouraging) to some of you. Two years ago, when DD was a sophomore, I used to lie awake at night worrying endlessly about whether she would have any choices at college app. time (freshman year grades were her worst). I fell into that trap that many of us who went to more selective schools fall into-thinking that the only "good schools" were Ivy League or top tier. I foolishly posted a note on the PR parent message board-a few people were kind and helpful (one sent me to Loren Pope's book, which made me feel much better), but others made comments about third tier toilets and such. So...I set out to do research on my own by pouring over guidebooks, websites etc. It became my third job (after being a parent and my rather demanding paying job). I found that plugging in her SAT scores into the 25/75 range for each school within a certain mileage range of home (360 miles) gave me a good starting point. I also identified those schools that had both of her areas of interest (history and business). I then eliminated schools that were not at least 40% residential and that were less than 70% female (I think there are some great single sex schools, but DD has always had a lot of guy friends and would not be happy in that environment). Then we started the tours. Was DD unhappy about making so many trips? Yes-but now I think she is glad we spent the time. Will I do it again next year when DS (better grades and completely different interests) is a junior? yes I think each school has a personality and that the best way of capturing it (even a little) is to go there. To those of you with kids who are not straight A students-don't despair! There are some terrific choices out there for your kids! My one big regret is the tremendous amount of energy I wasted worrying about DD's options-I now see that my worries were needless.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Hi again. It is funny that your D did indeed apply to Univ. of Hartford afterall and got in! As far as my brother's experience there, remember it was a long time ago as he is now 49 years old and in fact has a senior daughter himself! I remember him liking it very much. He majored in business, I forget which aspect, maybe marketing. He has had a career in business since then. I recall that in junior and senior years, he lived off campus. One thing that struck me about Univ. of Hartford (I was still in high school when he was attending) was how the school was very self contained. You have to drive into it or off campus to get to anything else. At the time, my other older brother was at Brown. So, as a younger sister, I visited both at college. At Brown, you can walk to this and that right by the college. I liked that idea more (again individual preferences) and in fact, that idea stayed with me when I looked at colleges and was one thing I liked about Tufts where I ended up and in fact, is a criteria my senior daughter prefers in a school in her searching. Anyway, I think Hartford suits what you mentioned of your daughter, the little you shared. My brother always speaks positively of his experiences there though I noticed that his daughter did not apply there.

I also picked up on something in your last post that resonates with something in my family this week. You mention your constant concern these past few years where your daughter could get into college given her qualifications. Well, my brother's daughter who is now a senior, also was a bit of a concern as well. She actually is very bright, a good writer, and pretty good student. She has not taken the most rigorous classes, however. I think she gets As and Bs, definitely not that hard of a worker, and has a rank something like 125 out of maybe 600+ (not sure), so a pretty good student but not at the top. Her SAT scores are like your D's, in the mid/upper 1100's. She barely has ANY ECs like your D or mine, though has a job at a restaurant. Her summers do not have any significant experiences either. She is smart, does well but surely does not have stats that would be ones to get into more difficult schools. I believe her first choice has been Penn State (lives in NJ). Never saw her finished essay but was at her house when she was doing a first draft. While she is normally a very good writer, it sucked. She just had no idea the kind of essay to write and balked at suggestions. I tried to help her brainstorm what she wanted to get across. Another aunt who is a teacher had some sessions with her so maybe she ended up with an essay that was more apporpriate. I just know that my dad fretted about if she would ever get into a college other than her safeties, particularly if she could get into Penn State like she wanted. My dad would always say he was worried about her (plus she is very social, party girl) and how he had no concerns about my daughter who he was confident could get in anywhere (yeah right, had to keep telling him how difficult it has become since we applied!). Well, got word from my mom that my niece got into Penn State yesterday! yay! sooo happy for her. I said how happy my dad would have been to see it happen afterall (he just died though was so into seeing his grandchildren get to this point). She said my brother (the dad) said the same thing. And ya know, the irony could be that this child got into her first choice and my daughter who my dad had no worries over very well might not (obviously different type of colleges, and different type of students as well). So, you know, even kids who are in this range have great success and will do well. And so no worries for your daughter either! Though, as a dad, you are allowed to worry!
Congrats on your daughter's admissions so far.
Susan

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 09:25 am: Edit

I am so glad that you posted! I see some B/C students and their parents posting on various boards who seem to fear that no 4-year colleges will accept them.

Your post demonstrates that they hvae some very nice alternatives. I hope that more people will come here and post about colleges that are not top 50.

Yours is the most informative post on such schools that I have seen.

By Musicmom (Musicmom) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 09:58 am: Edit

Bxian-
Congratulations on your D's acceptance to U of Hartford. Sounds like it might be a good choice for her.
Our S also has been accepted there. He is a music performance major applying to the Hartt School within the U of Hartford.
Our whole family arranged a visit last Aug and were treated to a private tour of the campus by a very knowledgeable student. Then, unexpectedly, we were all invited in to meet with the Asst. Dean of Admissions....we must have been a sight in our VERY casual shorts and tee shirts! She spent considerable time with us, and it was very informative. Much more satisfying an experience than some of the 'cattle call' tours we've been on.
We got a good feeling about what it must be like to be a student there.

The physical campus did not impress me at all....seemed very 1950's cinder block and ugly orange brick. We live in northern NJ and there are an abundance of beautiful campuses like Drew, TCNJ, etc so we are a bit spoiled. Our S, of course, didn't mind the campus at all.
(I didn't share my opinion with him!)

Anyway, he auditioned in a snowstorm on Dec 6 and received an early decision on Dec 17.
He also earned a significant merit award based on his audition. Hartt is not his first choice but it is a serious contender. I could see him being happy as a student there.

Best wishes to your daughter!

By Iska (Iska) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 04:04 pm: Edit

U of Hartford's The Hartt School is where Dionne Warwick went to study music.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Starbuckfreak:

I don't know if Rider has changed in 20 years, but you don't have appeared to have grown much. Stop with the JAP stuff. It is a gross, anti-semetic insult and should have you banned. Go over to the other board where that kind of language is acceptable.

I'm disappointed that no one else responded to this.

By Thumper1 (Thumper1) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 05:12 pm: Edit

U of Hartford is a nice school. DS also applied there to the Hartt School last year, and I think it would have been a contender if he had not attended the precollege programs there for four years. The University has a few highly regarded programs, Hartt being one, College of Engineering another, and the Art school a third. There is a magnet school on the campus now giving elementary ed majors some good exposure to schools, and observation opportunities. Hartford has a lot going on for a small city. U of Hart is actually on the border of Hartford, West Hartford and Bloomfield. The campus is pretty self contained. I will say the campus is a bit drab...the buildings particularly the Hartt school are dreary on the inside. Dorms are reportedly adequate but not wonderful. The university does offer decent financial aid to promising students. Our son also got a great merit offer from them (doing the December audition last year). DH graduated from there and took part in a coop program in engineering which ultimately led him to his first job. Honestly, I think U Hart is a good choice. By the way...thanks for this thread. We are now looking at colleges for DD and while she could apply to more competitive schools, we are really looking at that second tier.

By May_1 (May_1) on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Short post because post office closes in 15:

This is why I'm so glad that California has invested in an excellent junior college and public university system. My friends who don't have the money or stats to go to the UCs straight from high school can enroll at a JC, participate in the Transfer/ Honors Program common at JCs, and have preferential treatment when it comes time to apply to the UCs. And if you don't have the stats for Berkeley, LA, or San Diego, the other UC provide excellent programs (particularly in science) without having to face such intense competition from the 4.0/1600/800/800/800 students for acceptances. I'm glad that had I not performed as well as I di during high school, I would not need to worry about the possibility of college. Off to the post office!

By Bxian (Bxian) on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Good to hear about that Penn state admission! I think one of the things that has helped DD is focusing on smaller schools that are willing to "look behind the numbers." Her EC's are very strong and show that she will be an active member of the college community. I also think her essay has helped (she writes well and had both her English teacher and me look it over before she sent it in). I also had her interview wherever possible because she relates well to adults (as well as her peers).
It has made me so happy to see her wind up with some choices. One of her best friends spent 4 years trying to groom herself for one particular Ivy and got rejected recently. She is devastated. She gave up a lot of time with friends in high school and studied all the time. I know she will ultimately have other choices-but it just goes to show you that channeling all your eggs into 1 basket does not always pan out, no matter how hard you work.

By Starbucksfreak (Starbucksfreak) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 12:10 am: Edit

Tsdad: get a life! and a sense of humor! Since when was JAP a "gross, anti-semitic insult". Since my own boyfriend is Jewish, and he and I BOTH use the term as loosely as any other, without malice, I don't see where you get this dire impression. Hey, I use the term white trash when describing certain people of my own race, and don't feel offended when those of other races use the term either. Lighten up before you raise your cholesterol even further. Besides, the comments were meant to amuse, not insult.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 09:16 am: Edit

Starbucksfreak, I am not Tsdad but actually YOUR post is offensive to me. I do not know if the word JAP is used loosely in your life, but that word DOES have negative connotations and is considered derogatory, at least any place I have been. It is not used in my neck of the woods cause there are very few Jewish people, though I am and so are my daughters. I do not think people here are familiar with the term. However, I am. I grew up where there were many Jewish people in the community. So, the word is used in an insulting fashion. It has negative connotations toward females of the persuasion, particularly ones who have certain personalities. In fact, you say you use words like white trash to talk of people you know within your own "race" (by the way, Jews are in your race too), and I can tell you that that term as well is offensive to certain people. My kids go to school with kids who are poor or live in trailer parks for example. I can assure you if the term white trash were used, she would be seen as very prejudicial. I am sure slang words used in reference to African Americans are consider prejudicial as well.

About 17 years ago when I was teaching elementary school in my small rural town here in Vermont where there are very few Jews, a new special education teacher who was an older man began working in our school. This man was a very prejudiced person and would make remarks about each person in the school, kind of pidgeon-holing each into a certain trait/image based on their background. One day he just said something to me, I forget the exact words now cause that is not so important, but he referred to me as a JAP (and more) simply cause I am Jewish. I can tell you how uncomfortable it made me to have to even work with him (others were as well) and this was reported to the superintendent and in fact, he was disciplined in his record and the superintendent wrote a very apologetic letter about how terrible this was. Believe me, most in society would not take kindly to your negative slang terms against certain religions, races, or socio-economic levels of people. And just so you know, Jews are a religion, not a race.

Use of those terms do not amuse. Actually indeed they do insult.
Susan

By Bxian (Bxian) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

Well said, Susan.

I appreciate the info on U of Hartford. Is there anyone who can give me feedback on the other schools we visited (other than Rider-DD has not applied there).

Also-I fogot to mention one other school we visited. Fairleigh Dickinson University in Madison, NJ: The people we me there were very nice. Campus is very pretty (it was the old Vanderbilt estate). However, much of the campus is trees, with the buildings clustered in one area. The building where the business classes are held is beautiful. They have been contacting DD a lot with personal notes from her tour guide. Since so many kids are from in-state, we worried that a lot of kids would go home on weekends. However, the 2 kids from our HS that go there seem happy.

By Busymom (Busymom) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Thanks Tsdad & Soozievt, I was shocked also, to see reference to JAP on this site. (I actually believe I have read the term and similar ones in a couple of different discussions on this site.) I am not Jewish, but a member of corporate America which has gone a long way in recent years to sensitize all of us to how even little things we say and do can offend (even when its not intended to be offensive).

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 01:37 pm: Edit

I have posted something here that disappeared into cyperspace--don't know where all of my lost posts go. I wanted to tell tsdad that the reference to JAP, WASP, Preppy, Jock, etc are not necessarily ethnically driven. In many areas where I have lived, including here they describe a type. For instance, a WASP can certainly be Jewish, no one really knows and the assistant admissions director who is Hispanic is described as such, more by the attitude she reflects. I am sorry that so many of you are offended,as I do not believe the poster meant any insult of any ethnic type.
It is difficult to describe the student body or atmosphere of a school without gingerly stepping into some ethnic labling. I am aware I am on slippery ground when I make remarks about asian families--that such kids are harder on themselves than other are does not quell the feeling because in essence the observations and remarks are racist. Mainly because they can be preceived to be such by a large number of people. But how does one describe the difference between two catholic schools such as Duquesne and Franciscan University without going into the religious atmosphere at one school vs the other (Duquesne is hardly catholic, Franciscan is devoutly so). What to say about the heavy pervasion of alternative lifestyles in certain schools? And yeah, there are schools that have a large number of kids that can be described as WASPY or jocks or preppy. I don't think the poster intended to offend anyone. I actually have a harder time with terms like "trailer trash", white trash or other terms that label those who are not as economically advantaged as many of the kids in those type of homes are struggling with self esteem issues.
Rider College can be a great school for some kids. My nephew went there after burning out many community colleges. During his year there, some profs who took an interest encouraged him to work closer to his abilities and hooked him up with the resources that enabled him to transfer to an elite school and a combined BA/MD program. This is also the same school where the math department immediately recognized the talents of John Nash's son before they knew who he was, and had the troubled young boys mathematically gifted needs recognized and addressed. I don't like to identify the schools where my kids are for privacy reasons, but I do want to give this college credit for the difference it made in someone's life.
Most schools, even if the defining characteristics do not fit a student, have pockets of wealth that can be gleamed if the student looks for them.. Sometimes it is the mismatch that makes a person stand out from the crowd. In an environment where he is just one of many, he will be treated as such. That is also a thought to ponder for parents who do send their kids of the the "big daddy"schools .

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

I just want to clarify that my post/remarks were not in reference to the origninal person who used the term earlier in this thread...I never responded to that one. But my reply is in reference to Starbucksfreak's post itself which I do find offensive. I realize the need to discuss types of kids in student bodies and what not. The term, JAP, is definitely considered a slang negative connotation to a certain type of Jewish woman, not all Jewish women. There is nothing offensive (to me) in saying a student body has many Jewish females on campus or even many well to do Jewish females. In any case, Starbuck's remarks and viewpoints, which are not just regarding JAPs even, do offend me.

Also, while I have NEVER heard the term JAP used for non- Jewish people, Jamimom, I do believe you when you say it is used more widely where you live. I just have never heard it that way. Normally it has a connotation of rich spoiled princess attitude, in reference to a Jewish girl. Maybe these words are flung around in certain areas, I have no idea but it never was a kind reference wherever I have been. Again, it is not used AT ALL in my neck of the woods, but then again we really do not have many Jewish young women either. But if you say it is used in reference to non-Jews, I certainly have not heard it used that way here either.

Starbucks talked about it being amusing and I think it should be pointed out that NOT EVERYONE would find that amusing and many would find it derogatory, same with the white trash remarks.

I do think kids want to know types of kids that make up a college environment, and I have NO problem with that. Just like nobody thinks it is ok to say there are "niggers" there or other terrible slang terms, many view the term, JAP, that way as well. The person who is not offended by the use of this term, I gather is not Jewish herself, so different story. Then again someone else posted who is not Jewish who still finds the use of such terms as offensive, just as I would find "white trash" offensive even though I am not poor or find "nigger" offensive and I am not Black.

Susan

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Sorry Jamimom, I with Susan on this. JAP (and Mafia) is a hurtful term and meant to insult. JAP is an insult to Jews and Jewish women. It means nothing else. The fact that some Jews may use it among themselves doesn't give a license for a non-Jew to use it. Does the fact that some Black people use the "N" word allow whites to use it? JAP is not the same thing as WASP, and it should not be equated.

Americans have virtually no sense of history. Minorities, which Jews remain, do. I remind you it was only a half a century ago that 6 million Jews were killed. Those deaths are remembered in the Jewish community as are such slights and insults as using the word JAP.

There are no two sides to this argument. It's plain wrong and should not be permitted on this board.

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 03:16 pm: Edit

I haven't the term "JAP" in years since I grew up on the east coast. I thought it went out of fashion years ago.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Me again, clarifying. I did not realize the original post that referred to JAPS was also by Starbucksfreak.....so I guess my remarks are in reply to the original post as well afterall. I just went back and had assumed at first that it was a different poster.
Susan

By Bxian (Bxian) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit

Another note on Rider-while DD did not apply there, the Admissions Office there was a pleasure to deal with to the extent we had contact with them for Open House info, etc. Their Director of Admissions spoke at a college meeting at our high school (along with reps from some other schools) and had some very helpful comments on the admissions process.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Nope, Perry, hear it a lot here and in other east coast cities. Not necessarily by Jews or about Jews. Used to describe a "princess" mentality woman. I hear Mafia or Mafioso a lot too, since we moved to NY and here. Never heard that term in Pittsburgh used as a label. Again it is not always used in describing Italian Americans but more a type and is often prefaced with a nationality.
Have I used those terms? Yep, not a lot but have. Have never in my memory ever refered to anyone or group of people as any kind of trash, however. But have heard it used by many who do/did not recognise that it could hurt. See, I know families who live in mobile homes and live below the poverty line, particularly in West Virginia. When a converstion casually mentions how a person was real trailor park trash, I have seen some of the kids and families cringe in hurt at those words. They often felt socio-economically out of place in the setting anyways and to hear that really twists the knife about how they live. The same with the poor white trash label. The JAP label I just have never seen that reaction, and believe me, I am with many Jewish families, have lived in predominantly Jewish areas. Yes, they bandy the word, but my experience has been that even the girls who fit the label in a way, laugh it off, label themselves and use it as I said in the same way the words preppie and jock and WASP are used. And WASP is definitely not a protestant label when bandied but used to describe someone very uptight and establishment. My sons hate being called jocks, which they often are and with a derogatory implication. I was once asked not to use the term Oriental for Asians. Sorry to have offended anyone and will avoid use on the boards. I assure you there was no intent to label anyone here or to insult them.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Jamimom, I do not think you insulted anyone. I do think another post was inappropriate by another poster. You mostly described the situation where you live. I have to tell you, however, that while you say the word, JAP, is used to describe even non-Jews where you live (again, new idea to me!), it truly DOES stand for Jewish American Princess so it was originally meant as a derogatory slang term in reference to some Jewish people.
Susan

By Perry (Perry) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Well, as someone who is Jewish, I never took particular offense at the term, which referred to loud, obnoxious, ultra-competitive, pushy, upper-class Jewish girls with a sense of unwavering entitlement. There were quite a few of these where I grew up, but this characterization can hardly be applied exclusively to Jews. At any rate, without meaning to start another controversial thread, we are all a little too sensitive these days.

By Trinity (Trinity) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I am not closing this thread. I've allowed posters to express their feelings about the comment and nothing will be gained from a continuing discussion. It seems that some posters are not prepared to accept the explanation of the poster who made the comment and show only willingness to add fuel to the fire. The comment in itself will not cause this thread to be closed; continuing discussion about it will result in the immediate closing of the thread!

It is unfortunate to see a very beneficial thread marred by issues that should not be discussed with such length and vigor. Dial the rethoric back and stick to the original subject!
Moderator Trinity

By Musicmom (Musicmom) on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 07:17 pm: Edit

Per request of our esteemed moderator...
back to the topic!

Bxian-
We live next town over from Fairleigh Dickinson in Madison, N.J. It's a lovely wooded campus with stately buildings. I actually taught an allied health class there many years ago. I don't know much about the academics there now....but Madison is a terrific college town. Walk to user-friendly downtown with mom and pop shops and train to NYC. Drew University is across the street; it's also beautiful. Our son has attended a wonderful summer music program at Drew for several years. Madison is small town with easy access to big city. Short Hills Mall nearby, for those that need malls!

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Musicmom - what are your impressions about Drew? Do you have any insights into the academic quality? Also, I have read various reports that it is a suitcase school that clears out on the weekends - do you get any sense of this?

By Chinaman (Chinaman) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:27 pm: Edit

When is the best time for a high schooler to start the college visits? 10th or 11 grade?

By Musicmom (Musicmom) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Carolyn-
Sorry I really don't have much real insight to share with you about Drew other than our superficial impressions about the gorgeous campus. None of my son's crew are considering it since (understandably) it's waaaay too close to home for most who are looking to spread their wings a bit. I could see how it might be a suitcase school since it is so well located to major highways and the line into NYC.
Our son attended summermusic at Drew 2 years; it was his first opportunity to really live,sleep and eat music with like minded and motivated kids. It cemented his plans to study music after H.S. His goal is acceptance at a conservatory in NYC. So much for traditional college campuses like Drew!

Sorry I don't have much to share. Hopefully someone else will have some hard info.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Chinaman, there is no solid answer to your question. Ideally, kids have had contact with colleges in some form long before highschool, using the pool facilities, going to a festival or show there or going to a music workshop or any kind of community outreach. They are not visits for the sake of future applications and are not triaged as such, but this can give kids some idea of what college campuses can be like.
My son's prep school recommends starting searches/visits second term junior year. That is not to say that if an opportunity comes up, your student should pass it up. But until they get into a certain mindset, for some kids it just does not sink in. My son who is interested in MT had gone to CMU many times--we lived just down the street from the school. Pitt and Duquesne the same story. But those visits just did not register as possibilities for him. Now CMU is on his list, and he will visit it with his brain hopefully tuned in to what life there for him would be like.
My friend was flabbergastered when her S wanted to go visit UNC Chapel Hill. She is an alum and they have gone back for various reasons many times. She figured that was one school they could skip visiting since her son should know it well. Nope. He is interested in the school and feels he wants to look at it with a whole new outlook.
I have found if the kids look at a spectrum of choices, even if they are local schools they can get a feel for the different categories of other schools. My S, for instance knows the differences among CMU, Duquesne and Pitt and knows the BU, though a private school would be more similar to Pitt, that Fordham in the Bronx would be sort of like Duquesne and Columbia more an atmosphere like CMU with its enclosed camps. It's not a real accurate guide but it is a start. He knows from looking at Bucknell with his brother what an LAC away from a city is like. So he has built up somewhat of a base. He wants to look at some big schools, and school out west and the midwest because he can't really visualize these schools. We are indulging in a tour over spring break--I am sending him solo to a variety of cities and schools so that he can get some sense of what is out there. He may not apply to any of the schools he visits, but they will help him form some guideposts that his lack of experience has not yet developed on this topic.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 04:51 pm: Edit

I think Junior year is probably the right time to start visiting schools. You can do a few visits over the summer before Junior year possibly. The reason to wait: it's important to get those PSAT scores and first semester Junior year GPA inorder to have at least a base idea of what level of selectivity is going to be within reach before you start trotting around looking at Harvard, Stanford and Princeton.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 04:56 pm: Edit

I think that 8th grade is a good time to start. It's a good time to help students realize the connection between their h.s. choices (grades,curriculum, ECs) and the options they'll have available as seniors.

I also think that 8th graders are likely to pay more attention to parents' advice than are h.s. seniors and juniors. An 8th grade whose parents tell them to keep their options open, not set their minds on one particular school, is far more likely to follow that advice than is a h.s. junior, who's more likely to have reached the no it all stage of adolescence.

By Bxian (Bxian) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit

We started looking the fall of junior year (October) and wrapped up in October of Senior year. I felt strongly about DD visiting schools while they were in session rather than in summer when the campus was dead. I pulled out the calendar and used those long weekends and school breaks to make the visits. That way, she still could sleep in or do her other activities/homework during part of the weekend and do visits the other half. Doing the apps is stressful enough in the fall of senior year.

By Bxian (Bxian) on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Does anyone have any input on any of the schools we visited?

By Jaf (Jaf) on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

It's so nice to see all these posts from parents whose kids are not determined to attend an Ivy League school. My son has great potential, but he has wasted a lot of time during high school. He applied to 10 schools, and 6 were safeties. Since we need a lot of financial aid, it seemed reasonable that the schools where he would be in the upper 25% stat-wise would be more likely to be affordable. SO far he's been accepted to all of his safeties and wait-listed at his fourth choice school. He was actually a little disappointed until I pointed out that he wasn't rejected. And there were nearly 5000 applicants for 600 places. I feel certain that, if he really wants that school, he can get in.

By Bxian (Bxian) on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

For those who are interested, her is how my D fared:
Accepted at: Saint Joseph's University, Susquehanna, Lynchburg, West Chester and U. Hartfod
Wait List-U of Scranton
Rejected-Towson, Bentley and Bryant (the last one was a surprise, as Saint Joe's and Susqu have more selective admissions profiles-in fact, Saint Joe's apps are up over significantly this year-that great basketball time generated a lot of interest!