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Two great posts from Dancersmom and Soozievt on another thread make me get into a topic I would just as soon avoid! I have a daughter who is an aspiring dancer. She has only in the last couple of years really started to work at dance but she is talented (biased mom opinion but also all of her dance instructors say so). How talented I don't know, and I also don't know how "starting late" in dance (age 11 for ballet, 13 for jazz) makes any serious aspirations impossible.

We are thinking that she will attend the local high school next year, which is excellent as public schools go, but with no dance offerings at all. Am I making a big mistake to not be seriously thinking about looking into performing arts schools? Any advice about this, or how many classes she should be taking, or what to do during the summer?

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 01:38 am: Edit

Patient, I really cannot advise you which school in your area to send your D to. As you saw in my other post, performing arts schools are not even an option in my state. And we do not wish to send our kids away to boarding schools.

However, I can think of things you may wish to weigh. One is, of course, which school your daughter wants to attend. Another consideration is what training in dance is available to your daughter in your area outside of school. You may very well be able to get her plenty of dance training to enrich her schooling. You would have to see how these dance classes compare to the offerings she would have during the school day at the perf. arts school. Another consideration is how you feel about schlepping her to umpteen dance classes afternoons/evenings/weekends as compared to getting all that right at school. Also, not sure if the performing arts school is public or private but if private, of course the financial comparison needs to be made. Another thing is that is your daughter mostly interested in dance as the only performing art? If so, not sure she really needs the performing arts high school. She may prefer the P A high school if she likes being with like minded students who are passionate about her interests. Then again, academically you may want her with a mix of students and then enrich her experiences by adding performing arts more outside the school day. Our high school used to not offer dance either. However, a few years ago they brought in a dance class, ironically contracted out to the director/teachers from our dance studio! Not only can't my kids fit that into their daily school schedule (it is a double block class for a semester), but the class is not appropriate for them. They are experienced dancers and this class is being offered as a first time experience in dance pretty much so even the director would say it is not for them. It is nice however that it is there for other kids to be exposed to who may not otherwise have done any dance (and it is free).

As far as types of dance to take and her age and so on......I think your D will be fine even if she started later than some kids. It is not THAT late. True, my own kids began dance as preschoolers. It is just that if your daughter is very into dance, she may want to take more dance now intensively to get on par with others who may have danced longer and are in her age range. Classes are usually grouped by ability, not age. Not sure which dance to advise you cause I think your daughter should pick the styles she wants to learn. Plus, I have no idea what is offered in your area. While my daughter does not plan to become a ballerina, she feels ballet is important to take as it is basic technique and is the basis of many dance forms. Plus, she likes ballet lots. Once your daughter is on pointe, it would mean ballet more than simply once/week. I would advise to continue in jazz as well. My daughter takes jazz, hip hop, tap, ballet/pointe, lyrical jazz, and jazz funk. Another thing is performing. Our studio has an annual performance. But also they hold auditions for a jazz dance performance troupe (must be in high school). My daughter made it in as a freshman and this group rehearses each week and performs around the region. Technique is important but so is performing. Also at our studio there is a core group of girls who have tap danced their whole lives....my two girls are among them. They had exhausted all tap classes and the studio decided to invite these tappers who have been there for years together to become a Tap Repertory company who rehearses numbers each week and also performs around the region. My younger one has choreographed some of the numbers. Choreography is another aspect if your daughter has the interest. I would see which classes your daughter might want to take. If she is serious and depending what other ECs she has, she might end up dancing each day of the week (mine does on top of other ECs including always rehearsing a show). At our studio, the kids who are dedicated the most to being dancers tend to take many classes and are at the studio a lot. My older one takes less classes than the younger one but balances it with other ECs outside of this field. The younger one plans to go into this field in college and beyond. So, I do not know to what degree your D wants to pursue this....as a major interest or as a potential field of study/career. If she really wants to go on with this, say in college, she may want to increase her classes now. Talking with the studio director to advise on appropriate classes considering her level, amount of experience, and future plans might help determine what to sign up for. Visit the perf. arts school too and scope out their dance offerings and put the school + studio side by side to the performing arts school and think of pros and cons of each situation.

enjoy....a five, six, seven, eight....

Susan

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:03 am: Edit

Susan has some great info in her post. Though we do not have our son in a performing arts school, we did put him into this particular school because it has a very good performing arts facility and program with a track record of kids going on in this field. The last part of my last sentence is what is important in looking at schools. Many schools that proport to have a music or dance program, though indeed they have one, it is not to the level that would give the kids what they need to be a serious candidate for conservatory study. When I was in Pittsburgh, for instance, there is an arts magnet school called Kappa, I believe (it's been a while), and though it did offer the arts and music, I don't know how many kids were able to go on in that field upon graduation. The best kids in the area in music were not those from that school, and anyone who was good took private instruction outside of the school as well. A friend of mine has a daughter who has been in dance all of her life, and the mother was a dancer. She does go to Kappa, but she is studying seriously outside of school and her mother told me that the curriculum in the school is way insufficient for her daughter who is intending to go on in dance after highschool. The most serious classical musicians were not from that school, that I know because my children were heavily involved in that field and I knew where the top kids went to school. No real discernable pattern and Kappa did not have that much representation considering a good part of the school day is used for the arts. Now in NY, Laguardia is a different story--but, again the top high school musicians studied at the Juilliard or Manhattan School or Mannes, and they did this privately in addition to school.
When you have a child who is serious about such a field, the parent might want to get a list of the programs in the area. For dance, you should find out what the sequences are for those in your area who have gone further in dance. What studios, programs, etc have the clusters of the most serious and advanced dancers? I have done this for sports many times because I had a serious athlete and if you have a child who wants to excel in an EC there are very few schools that can provide the total program for him. You need the supplementation if you want to get the child into the upper echelons, unless the child is truly, unusually talented. Even then, they need to learn the traditional forms.
For all the money we pay for our son at this private school that does indeed give him many performing arts opportunities, we are finding that he should be getting some out of school experiences too. He is in a youth orchestra that is very good--the school orchestra is not. He is taking private voice with someone familiar with the audition processes and has a reputation for working with kids who want to go on with voice in college. And he spent this summer with a dance troupe, getting lessons and becoming more proficient. He says that the dance at his school, as Soozie says about her Ds' school is nowhere near advanced enough, and he is hardly advanced in dance. He is an outstanding football player, and one of the things the coach called me about at the end of the season was to tell me he should spend the summer at a training facility if he wants to go this route for college. I bring this up because it is not just the performing arts where you run into the supplementation issue. For football you need a team to play, and you would think that the school would be all these kids need. No way. There is a whole other world out there that you enter if you want to take it to the next level which is college. And I would hardly classify football as a skill as I would dance. I know some very frustrated parents who are shelling out many bucks for a private school that was supposed to address academic, athletic, music issues and the parents are finding that they have to pay for the supplementation needed on top of the school tuition. Do be very aware of the limitations that any school programs have.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit

Jamimom...interesting post..thanks for sharing. I was only addressing dance specifically in my post above. However, I have to say that our small public rural high school is VERY strong in performing arts. In fact, while our school is nothing to write home about, I thank my lucky stars that it is outstanding in performing arts cause it just so happens that both my kids ended up loving performing arts since they were tots. Our school has won a Grammy Award for its music program. My kids have been in the music program all along. They do band, jazz band, wind ensemble (no orchestras here), jazz theory, music tech, chorus, and a select choir. Then the school also offers a fall drama production and a spring musical, which are always outstanding. Now, they do offer that dance class I mentioned but that is not for experienced dancers. They also offer private instrumental lessons (that we pay for) where they bring in professional musicians to teach specific instruments (my kids take clarinet and guitar privately at school but piano outside of school). I believe this year they brought someone in to teach private voice lessons (for pay) during the school day. They offer scholarship to any student who cannot pay for the private lessons. So, my kids do get a bunch of performing arts opportunities at school. However, we have supplemented our kids school opportunities with activities outside of school in the performing arts. Both take private piano (since age seven). One takes private voice lessons. They each take dance classes and are in dance troupes outside of school (no such troupes affiliated with school here). While one does the school musical productions, she also does shows outside of school. Then both have gone for many summers to performing arts programs out of state. So, you can create many of the opportunties that a performing arts high school might have by supplementing what your school offers. For my kids, it is a mix of the school offerings, the school EC offerings, outside private lessons and classes, summer programs, and theater jobs outside of school. While one kid likely wishes she went to a boarding school for the arts (since none exist in our region), she truly gets the experience in sum with what we provide her. It is just harder on the parents pretty much....driving, money, etc. And the child's schedule is demanding with all the outside hours that may have been done during the school day if in a PA high school. Luckily our school is known for its music program and keeps getting many kids into things like All States. For a little public high school, this is one of its highlights.

Susan

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:46 am: Edit

I am sure you did better than sending yours to a boarding school in opportunities provided. When you send them to board, you cannot partake many if any outside activities, and to really get the best opportunities you need the flexibility to go where and when they come up. As I mention, my son is in a school with what is considered a good, strong program. Yet there are outside activities that fit what he wants, needs better. It is much harder on the parents and yours have been so fortunate to have you drive them around to the various places that have something they may want to do. Or training that is special or targeted to what they want or need. We put S in this school for a variety of reasons, but part of it was that it by far had the most comprehensive spread of what he wanted. It has cut down my taxi driver duties considerably--during middle school, I was going crazy. But it has not eliminated them Things do pop up outside of the school, and if they are a good fit, we do try to fit them in.
It is wonderful when the public school can be a good base for your children's interests and needs because it frees up the funds for the extras that are not provided and for the surprises that life often dishes out. That is why when looking at a college, it is important that it can provide opportunities for the student to partake in activities he/she likes. It really does not help to have outside opportunities, because in most cases, unless it is truly a joint effort it is difficult to schedule something outside of one's college and regularly go there. Many kids have found this with the Columbia/Barnard-Juilliard program or taking Peabody courses while at Hopkins or in Pittsburgh, the reality of taking courses at other colleges is often not there though technically it can be done and is offered as an option.
I really advocate a music education for my kids but the little ones are in a school where the instruction is minimal in that area. I decided that I would just provide it outside of the school because I could do it at a higher level anyways and the school met other needs that I could not easily supplement on the outside. I hear parents complain about the lack of certain programs and if they are easily accessible outside of school, I feel they really should be looking for other things that need to be improved in a school. I have seen very few schools that can provide a comprehensive program in ECs---you can allmost always do better tailoring a program outside of the school that fits your child's needs better.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Jamimom....the taxi mom duties certainly go with it, that I can attest to. I should just mention that choice of schools is a nonissue here. Our school is the only game in town, no privates around. It is either this or sending them away to boarding school which some have done. The only other school option is a small well regarded ski racing academy that happens to be in our town where my kids could be day students (kids come from all over to attend) but my older one did not wish to attend even though she is very passionate about ski racing cause in order to attend she would have to devote her entire life to ski racing and cut out all her other interests such as some of her other sports and all of her performing arts which she is not willing to do. Further she really cares about academics, having honors type courses and breadth of offerings and this other school only has 80 kids in grades 9-12 and is too small to really afford her that considering academic challenge is her first priority. She does not aim to be a ski racer on a national circuit or the Olympics so this was not the best choice for her, plus costs as much as college which I do not have (but moot point as she did not want to attend but does attend their weekend program which is expensive as it is). So, for us, choosing high schools is not even an option. While our kids may not be in the best high school, I think the public school experience is one that affords them certain perspectives and at least our school is small (600 kids in gr. 9-12) so that can be a plus. I think they made the most out of the opportunities in our school, challenged themselves in what truly are challenging classes, and sought other academic opportunties to accelerate, do indep. studies, take Johns Hopkins courses, and what not. Then we provided additional enrichment for their interests beyond what the school offers though they do some of their EC activities affiliated with school, but as I said, many we provide for a fee outside of school. Perhaps in a prep school they could have had it all in one place. We wanted our kids to grow up at home so we dealt with what we had available here and sought what we could for them on our own. I think it worked out pretty well.
Susan

By Shennie (Shennie) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Let me add my thoughts here. My son is a music performance major at a major conservatory. We thought about PA high school for his last 2 years. However, since there was none anywhere near us it would have required that he go to a private one out of state. We were not particularly interested in doing that and felt that the academic offerings at his hometown school were stronger than the few schools we looked at. However, we knew we had to provide things for him that were not available for him at his high school.

Fortunately, his high school was very flexible and we were able to adjust things to give him more time for his instrument. During junior year, he dropped math. (He had finished pre-calc during his sophomore year and would have started calc as a junior.) He felt that calc would be very time consuming and not needed for conservatory. Dropping math freed up an hour during the day which let him leave earlier so he got in more practicing (and less homework). During senior year he only went to school in the afternoon for 1st semester and spent the morning rehearsing in preparation for his auditions. He went back full time second semester but had a free period in during the day where he would go and practice. We then augmented with youth orchestra, master classes at our local university, high level lessons, and weekly chamber music coachings for his quartet. Overall, I think he ended up getting just as good a music experience this way and a better academic experience.

You also state that since you daughter started late that it makes serious aspirations impossible. I don't know if this is true or not, but you probably really want to think about whether your daughter is going to be pursuing a dance major in college or looking at dance as an avocation. It may help you decide whether to place more emphasis on the dance aspect of things or on the academic aspect. They certainly are not mutually exclusive, but most kids can't do it all and some comprimises must be mades somewhere along the way.

By Emilyp114 (Emilyp114) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Having attended an arts school, I'll give my opinion here. Certainly, it will totally depend on the school what opportunities are afforded both artistically and academically. I was fortunate in that the one I attended had an excellent reputation for both. It was a public school but admission was by application and audition only. Once admitted, you had to maintain a good average or you were asked to leave.

My school was one that offered five majors: drama, MT, visual art, dance, and music. In addition to the usual academic requirements, classes in your major were held daily. Days were long and rehearsals before and after school, as well as at lunch, were a way of life. Our school put on 40 productions, of varying size, each year. The staff was talented and dedicated, a really great group of teachers. The arts teachers all had BFA's and most MFA's. The academic teachers all had degrees in their subjects, with most having a M.Ed. Even the academic teachers were often involved in productions.

The drama teachers were all involved in theatre outside the school as well, two as directors, a few as actors, and others as playwrights. It's a h/s unlike many others. There are always kids in the halls, interacting with each other reading lines, warming up for sectionals, painting murals on the walls. The school had fabulous facilities, practice rooms, studios, etc. but the best thing about it was the atmosphere. It was welcoming, and it was challenging. As I'm sure a lot of you know, artsy kids are often made to feel like outsiders at regular schools. At our school, there was none of the clique-ish behavior and kids knew and were friends with others in every grade.

As far as outside enrichment is involved, I don't know anyone who wasn't taking outside classes of some sort. Most kids had been taking piano, or other music lessons since they were very young. The dance kids were all involved in studios outside of school as well. The drama and MT kids often had voice lessons, or were involved in community theatre. Some kids had already been in professional productions, like Les Mis or B & B. Many of us were also very involved in sports. I've been playing soccer since I was 5, with a rep travelling team since I was 11.

So yes, it was truly a school of very involved kids. In lots of different types of activities. Not all of them go on to study the arts in college but many do. The nice thing is that we had choices because of the academic excellence as well. Not all arts schools are so fortunate.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Emily , you are truly fortunate to have had such a high school. I know my daughter would have loved it though she really gets to do a bunch of it all anyway where we live. I have to say that at our school, the performing arts kids are not outcasts. I know what you are talking of but it just really is not quite that way here. While my daughter is so bonded to her current cast (this is show weekend), these are her friends when she does theater stuff at school (actually they are all older than her) but her close friends/peers are not theater kids. She is kinda the opposite of an outcast type. Just mixes w/ different kids depending what she is doing. However, she has had the sort of experience that you talked about being with kids who share this passion when she goes to her summer program out of state where she will return for her seventh summer this year. Those kids are bonded at the hip and are all so into this stuff. And yes, the program has the intensity like which you speak about but they thrive on the work (which they do not think of as work). One of these close friends just took a ten hour train today to come see the cabaret she created this weekend. So, in a way, while not the school year, she has had a big taste of that kind of environment. She has that set of friends from summer who are so like her, her home friends who do not do theater, and then her theater group of kids who attend her school, many of whom are going to graduate this year.

Your school sounds really great though. What state was that in , NY?

Susan

By Sascha (Sascha) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Patient--You might want to look at Interlochen Center for the Arts in Michigan, both for their summer camp and boarding school. My daughter attended the camp, for creative writing, and starting lobbying to go the boarding school. After years of listening to her beg, we let her apply last year, telling her we could never pay for it, and were shocked when they awarded her a nearly full scholarship. Much as we miss her, it turns out to be a wonderful place for. The kids there are utterly committed to the arts, and it turns out that the academics, if you are careful in picking classes, are excellent. I know they have a strong dance program. I wouldn't recommend the place unless a kid is really committed. Sascha

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Thanks so much, Sascha! The Interlochen poster is posted on the high school summer opportunities board right now, and I had taken an information card to send in and now I will do so. I have one who is an aspiring creative writer and then the dancer. NOT that we can afford two private school tuitions on top of a college age son, but the summer program definitely looks like something to consider. We also have something in southern California for summer called InnerSpark, if anyone is familiar with it, that also looks interesting.

That's wonderful that your daughter is happy there.

By Bananabean (Bananabean) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 07:21 pm: Edit

I am a pianist, and am currently planning for auditions. I attend a math and science magnet school (rated the top in my state); during the summer before my junior year, I contemplated attending Walnut Hill, which is a prestigious arts school near Boston.

At Walnut Hill, most musicians have the opportunity to take lessons at the New England Conservatory (one of the top music conservatories in the nation); however, even though I auditioned and sent in forms, I decided not to attend.

I am glad I made that decision. Sometimes, it's not the quality of education that matters (though it can make a difference)--most of it depends on your child's willingness to pursue extra opportunities outside of school. I know many students at performing arts schools, and I feel that they are really not "better" musicians than I am. I feel like this might be the same for a lot of people in dance also.

I chose to stay home and pursued all of the opportunities I could--since junior year I have performed with several symphonies, etc.

I would definitely suggest looking into opportunities in the community and attending performing arts summer camps. I know for a fact that the best musicians in my city (again, I don't know about dancers) attend some of the hardest academic schools around.

By Calmom (Calmom) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Patient,

My daughter attends a public arts high school and absolutely loves it there. All kids have to audition to get in, and each kid has a specific discipline. They take academic classes in the mornings, and attend classes in their respective art disciplines in the afternoons.

One of the things that I really like about the arts high school is that my daughter has more time for outside activities and for focusing on her academic work, because dance classes are held during school hours. Before she attended the arts school, she had dance studio classes almost every day after school, often until late in the evening. My daughter has now cut back to one studio class a week - so every other day she is out of class by 3:30 and free to engage in other activities.

Private school would not be an option for us in any case, but I am not so sure that a private arts school would afford the same experience. One of the nice things about my daughter's high school is that as a public school, there are strong connections to the community and the student body is reasonably diverse. There is also an extremely high level of parental involvement, something that is hard to muster at the high school level.

So I guess my answer is that if there is an arts high school in your area, then it can be a wonderful experience. I would be hesitant about a private boarding school, unless the child is very strongly committed to her art and the school has a very strong reputation for both academics and its arts programs. I mean, half the fun of an arts school is getting to watch all the kids perform throughout the year-- if you send the kid *away* you miss seeing the show.

By Vegangirl (Vegangirl) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit

sascha,
I've been looking into interlochen, and it looks absolutely amazing! you don't have an email in your profile, so would you mind emailing me so that I can ask you some more questions about it?

By Patient (Patient) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 10:06 am: Edit

Calmom...are you in northern or southern California? (we are in northern)

By Calmom (Calmom) on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 04:09 am: Edit

Northern.