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I decided to ignore my parents advice and a free ride to a state school to go to my ED dream. I ended up having to take out 16k in loans. I love my school and cant think of going anywhere else, but with the rising costs of undergrad and then law school afterward, should i think about transfering to a near by state school (I dont want to leave my ED school friends)?

By Dstark (Dstark) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Can you get a part time job to cut the cost?Summer work?

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:17 pm: Edit

the work load is rather heavy at my school...if i could get an on campus job it might be possible. summer has become more difficult b/c my parents moved to another state while i was in school first semester so my old job is gone...but if i could, i could work three jobs over the summer.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Do you mean that if you stay where you are, you'd have $64 k in loans once you graduate or is $16 the total amount of loans you'd have to take out?

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:35 pm: Edit

i will end up with more than 64k when i get out next year tuition is going up around 5% and room/board up around 6.8%

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

I can't imagine any college is worth going $64 k in debt for. That would be tying up your future options in a major way. Is there no cheaper school that you could go to and still get an experience that you would regard as a quality one?

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit

it really is a great school. small class sizes, accessible faculty. i like not being just a face in a crowd. plus it has the feel of a large university (sports and organizations wise). i have already had a breat experience here.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:00 pm: Edit

All I can say is that I had a friend who's father won major bucks in the Irish Sweepstakes. The dad gave each of his then h.s. age kids a share of the $ to do what they wanted to do with it.

My friend decided to use his to pay for going to a college that he had fallen in love with. He went there, graduated, decided to enter a field that didn't pay that much and when he was about 30 realized that he probably could have had an equally good experience elsewhere if he had taken the time to explore a variety of alternatives.

No matter how wonderful your college is, I imagine there are other places that could give you a similarly wonderful experience at a much lower price. That's my opinion, but it's your life to live.

By Dstark (Dstark) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Can you get a merit scholarship at a lower ranked school that is small?

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:07 pm: Edit

How good is your state school? If it's decent, consider trasnferring there. Law school is expensive and the likelihood of getting a scholarship to go is very slim. To go in with 64k in debt is a terrible burden.

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:07 pm: Edit

thank you for the input...it's a hard decision to make

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit

dstark/marite: based on high school info, very possible. my first semester college grade however are not that good. (avg frosh gpa at my school is 2.3 and i didnt get much higher than that ) yeah, law school would be tough w/that much debt...and it would be a waste to go to a top 25 for undgd and a low public for law.

By Dstark (Dstark) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:17 pm: Edit

I would apply to other schools and see what my options are. You don't necessarily have to transfer, but right now you are in limbo. Law schools look at GPA and maybe an easier school is a good thing.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:18 pm: Edit

This is a decision you have to make. Can you get a job as a resident advisor and get free room? That can knock about $4000 or more off your tab per year. Can you work your tail off in the summer and make another $4000 a year? Can you take a few courses or do you have some APs or advance standing and can take a year off and work maybe what would be your junior year and make about $10,000? These options could all cut your $64000 tab down considerably.
My husband and I had a combined $48000 debt from college which included all sort of graduate and professional programs. It really did cut into our life styles for many years and our older kids had childhoods where a lot of scrimping was done and we lived in some pretty raunchy houses and dangerous neighborhoods. We were always behind on bills, repairs, etc. Money was always a big problem. But I don't think we regretted the choices we made most of the time. But it is not a path for everyone. I will tell you that the debt we incurred was after doing many of the measures I suggested to you. We went after every penny while we were in school and out to get by. Things are easier now, but there was never any guarantee that we would have reached this financial situation and we did not count on it; truthfully could not imagine it.

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Yeah, RAs only have to pay 500 for both semesters while regulars students pay almost 5k...unfortunately my school did not offer APs so that's not an option...the thing about working is that i dont have car and i'm over 600 mi from home so it's not like i have easy access to one either. regre is what i'm afraid of. i dont want to transfer b/c i'm afraid i'll regret it. but i do realize that it's my decisison to make. i guess i'm just looking for someone to tell me the answer i want to hear which is not the one that is probably best.

By Reidmc (Reidmc) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 10:32 pm: Edit

It sounds like you really like your current school, but you may really like your state school, too. Assuming you can swing them, it would appear that you'd be over $100,000 in loans by the end of law school - a pretty big chunk unless you are guaranteed a big firm salary in a city you can afford.

You might let the board know what your current school and state school are and see if you get some comments on general academics, grade point issues (2.3 GPA is not going to be a plus for law school admissions as GPA, LSAT score and recommendations are the whole ballgame) and law school prep.

By Patient (Patient) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 01:06 am: Edit

I agree that if you are in a school where the GPA is that low, it is going to make getting into a top law school tough--if that is your objective. It truly would help to know the two schools because other parents (not me) on the board really know the schools well.

Is there any chance that there is more aid out there for you, to reduce the load? I also know little about financial aid, but it seems to me that you should be going to the financial aid office at the school you now attend, explaining the dilemma, how much you like the school, what options there might be to stay there...again, more knowledgeable parents could say whether this is a lost cause or not.

Working for a few years in between college and law school, if you can live cheaply enough to save up money to repay those loans, is another possibility. The law school I attended really liked applicants/students who had been out in the real world for a while, particularly if they had jobs that related to the law.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 01:42 am: Edit

Working for a few years in between college and law school, if you can live cheaply enough to save up money to repay those loans, is another possibility. The law school I attended really liked applicants/students who had been out in the real world for a while, particularly if they had jobs that related to the law.

This is excellent advice.
I know a lot of lawyers and former lawyers.
Some of the lawyers are very successful, but others burnt out quick. Work experience is great not just to aid in your resume, but to give perspective to make you a better attorney.

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 01:48 am: Edit

The school I currently attend is Wake Forest. There is absolutely no grade inflation unlike many other top privates. We've been told, and maybe it's a lie, that schools know that low GPAs are common at Wake an d always take that into consideration. And from what I've heard from other grads, b/c they still score in top percentiles of standardized tests, that they have no problem. I do not want to go to U of Kansas (the state my parents currently attend) so if I were to transfer it would be to a public in North Carolina (hopefully). The school that offered me a full ride was Truman State U in a small town in Missouri. Trying to get the same offer from them again might not be possible b/c I kind of bounced back and forth between WF and TSU (each time TSU offering me more money) over the summer while I was figuring out ways to finance Wake. Do you think it's possible I could get more scholarship from the school? Well, as long as I improve my GPA this semester? Right now I have a 15k renewable scholarship and 5050 in a grant (after a lot of pleading and crying), and while it sounds like a lot, when actual costs are 36k it still leaves a large gap. Working after undgrad and between law school is possible. But I was concerned that with an English degree (poli sci minor), my job options would be somewhat limited. Last summer I was foolish enough to think that everything would work out, but now reality is kind of setting in.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 09:43 am: Edit

Another alternative is to take a sabbatical for a year and go to your state or local school thereby saving money for that year and getting credits transferable to your school. At the end of the year , you can make the decision to stay at the less expensive school or go back to your current one. I knew sseveral kids who have done that for a variety of reasons. You will have to choreograph things very carefully so you won't lose credits, but that can result in big savings for you and a chance to gain perspective. As for law school, many kids work a year and save money/pay down debt before making that decision. A lot of law schools offer a parttime option as well, and it usually only adds a year to the time, but allows for students to work their way through.
I know some young ladies at Kansas state and they are really enjoying their time there. It would be an experience for you, a contrast from where you are right now. Doubt if NC will give you state residency and Doubt even more if Truman will have those funds still availabel for you. If you can take a year at Kansas, saving money and return to Wake to the same financial package and work as a resident advisor and take a campus job checking ids or something like that which allows for study time as well, you can bring that $64000 figure way down.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Many students who want to go to law school work as paralegals after they leave college. Think about that. You get paid, make connections in the legal field, and become a more interesting candidate to law schools.

You also need to think where you want to go to law school. You might be better off attending a less expensive, state law school where you want to practice. Harvard is impressive but many of the practicing attorneys, judges, and politicans in most states went to the local law schools. BTW, where you go to law school usually is only important for the first job or so and only if you're trying to practice in some fancy firm in a big city. After the first job, you pretty much suceed or not on your own skills.

By Pennamom (Pennamom) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:23 pm: Edit

I think the two things together--not just the 64K of debt, but the grading on the strict curve so that you have such a low gpa--are reason to rethink the value of this investment. Your chances at a top tier law school are very slim unless you improve your gpa. Can you do this at your current school? If you geniunely believe that with your best effort you will continue to achieve this gpa, then 64K is a lot of money for a BA in English and a long shot at a top tier law school.

It is possible that you are happy at your school because you are happy at college. I have lived in lots of places and met lots of people and it seems to me that people who are happy are generally happy most places and people who are unhappy are generally unhappy most places.

One last thought, is it that you are really worried about the debt or that you are a good kid who is second guessing your decision because you rejected your parents advice?

Talk again with your parents. You obviously value their opinon and they will want to know you are worried. Whatever you decide, I really think it will be okay. Worst case, you will graduate from a great school with a large debt. But we all have debt for one thing or another eventually. If you have to have it, education is a good reason. Good luck to you!

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Thank you for all of yall's help - definitely a lot better than posting on the students board. I think that once I get my divisional reqs out of they way (the quantitave ones) then I will definitely be able to get a 3.5 by the end of junior year. But I had never considered being a paralegal before hand. How much do they make on average? Where do I find information about what that actually entails? The more that I've been thinking about it, working before law might be the best option. And Pennamom, you hit something - I think it is that I'm second guessing my decision b/c I rejected my parents' advice. I will talk to them before I go back for school. I just want to avoid that "I told you so" conversation.

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

Re starting to look for jobs either during the summer or after graduation: Does Wake Forest have a career planning center? Also, does it have any kind of mentoring/alumni program? I would think that those would be two great places to start. I am quite sure that there are plenty of lawyers who are alums of your school and they are often very happy to either spend time with you giving you information about where to look for paralegal jobs (the best paying ones are likely to be in larger urban law firms)or may even offer jobs in their firms.

I also agree that depending what state you would like to practice law in, some of the state law schools are excellent, and provide ample opportunity to find good jobs after you finish law school--so that you can perhaps not incur as much debt in law school as you have in your undergrad years.

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 01:07 am: Edit

I believe we do have a webpage for alumni-job connections for upperclassmen so that is something I will check to see if I have access to it. I actually have already looked up lawyers at certain law firms to contact for future opportunities. I had planned on living in North Carolina for most of my life, so Chapel Hill is a good state school that does have high placement that I was looking at.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 01:08 am: Edit

>>You also need to think where you want to go to law school. You might be better off attending a less expensive, state law school where you want to practice. Harvard is impressive but many of the practicing attorneys, judges, and politicans in most states went to the local law schools. BTW, where you go to law school usually is only important for the first job or so and only if you're trying to practice in some fancy firm in a big city. After the first job, you pretty much suceed or not on your own skills<<

Based on my wife's experience as an attorney, I'd say that the reputation of your law school is much more important than the reputation of your undergraduate college when it comes to having good career options as as a lawyer.

The top big city firms do indeed hire from Harvard and a few other top law schools (Yale, Stanford, Chicago, Berkeley, etc), but the next tier law firms and many good companies hiring their in-house lawyers also hire from there and the next tier of law schools (e.g. USC, UC Davis, etc) as well.

Graduates from third tier law schools, especially those not graduating at the top of their class, often have to scramble to find any jobs at all. I've seens cases of these lawyers actually ending up back working as paralegals in big city law firms. Their chances of ever getting promoted up to attorney were nil even though they had passed the bar.

Graduates of bottom-feeder store-front or correspondence schools or other unaccredited law schools have the bleakest job prospects of all.

You will have many more law career options open to you with a B.A. from Ordinary State U. and a J.D. Harvard than you will the other way around. Something to think about if you have enough money for only one fancy school and not two.

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 10:45 am: Edit

Demondeacon: I looked up Wake Forest in the Insider's Guide to learn more about the school in relation to your message thread. I had to laugh at myself because if I were a little more sports-savvy, I would have known from your screen name where you went to school! My son is actually looking at one of the North Carolina schools. It is a beautiful and friendly state (his grandmother lives there too).

I think that the fact that you are thinking about all of this as a freshman already means that you will be very well prepared indeed. Also, if you already want to become a lawyer, that is really saying something. I didn't decide to go to law school until my senior year of college, and in fact too late to even apply for the next year. So I took the LSATs in the spring, got a job for the following year, and then applied. You are way ahead of the game.

Coureur's examples are all appropriate in the California setting. I think that the main advantage of the "name" law schools is that since they are known everywhere, their graduates are not limited by geography--in other words, firms from every part of the country come to interview at those schools.

If you are fairly sure that you prefer to stay in North Carolina, I would suspect (again, you should verify this by doing some good research) that its law firms, as well as the state attorney's office, the district attorneys, etc., are largely populated by graduates of North Carolina law schools. Public interest law is actually sometimes one of the toughest to break into because of the limited number of positions in the best-known public interest organizations.

How well you do in law school will determine what tier of law firm, or public interest law or government work, you can apply to. Also, law school graduates branch into many different fields if they decide not to practice law. It takes energy and perseverance to do so but the skills you acquire do translate well into many different career settings.

Since you love Wake Forest, and since I believe that you will find that North Carolina law schools have good placement rates for their best graduates within the state, I think that your initial desire/plan to stay at WF and then go to a state law school, perhaps with a couple of years of legal work in between, sounds good.

You sound like you are really thinking about your options and also not afraid to stick with your decisions. You really do also have the gift of time. You can stay at Wake Forest for next year too, and reassess your situation after two years there, for example.

By Tsdad (Tsdad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Deacon:

As I recall there are four law schools in NC, UNC, Wake, Dook, and Central. Anymore these days? Are you considering Wake's law school. Ask your job placement office for info on paralegals. Also look in the job ads in the Charlotte and Raleigh papers for paralegal announcements. That might give you some idea of the salaries.

I still stand by my statement that where you go to law school is only important for the first job or so and then only for certain type of jobs. After your first couple of jobs you make your own reputation.

What kind of law are you interested in?

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:54 pm: Edit

I agree with Tsdad. However, the type of law school one attends does influence several things that extend over the long run and are not limited to your first "foot in the door" jobs: the kinds of friends and professional network you will have available, and the caliber of the legal training you receive.

I believe that my law school gave me absolutely superb training in legal research, case analysis and the construction of legal arguments. Some law schools are better than others in teaching certain aspects of the practice and some schools are stronger in teaching clinical skills, or have more course offerings in practical skills. That kind of training influences your work, and the type of practice you may choose, for a long time to come.

Also, you need to consider the type of practice you think you might like to have. Some law schools have a strong bent toward public interest or government work, others toward small or sole practice, and others toward corporate law. If you have a strong interest in one field or the other, it is a good idea to see if the law school will be supportive of that preference. For example, someone with a strong interest in legal aid work might feel completely out of place in a school where the vast majority of students opt for large law firms and income.

By Midwesterner (Midwesterner) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

In response to your question about paralegal salaries, they make about 25-35K in this large midwestern city.

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 06:47 pm: Edit

I just did a quick Google search and found two websites, salary.com and soyouwanna.com, just off the top, that mention starting average salaries in the $20,000 range but it is higher in the big cities and the most experienced ones are in the $60,000 range. It looks like you can tailor your search to look in different geographic areas. Again, though, better probably to use your college's resources and see what you come up with. Also, if Wake Forest is near a law school, you can check with their placement office too. I remember law firms posting summer jobs and such for non-lawyers, even at the law school placement office.

Hopefully all of this won't interfere with you having some fun and getting plenty of studying done!

College is there for the enjoyment of learning and being young and I wouldn't advise you to spend too terribly much time thinking about what jobs you can get that will help you out in law school. Who knows, maybe along the way you'll find some course or some professor who gets you interested in a whole different career direction--it happens all the time. That being said, I realize that you are concerned about the economic situation and I hope you can find a solution that works for you.

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Currently I am interested in Corporate Law - long enough to pay back my loans. My heart is in civil liberties however, which is where I would really like to spend most of my career in. Wake does have a law school and it places a lot of people at a particular Charlotte/Raleigh/Rock Hill firm that I was interested in. As far as schools go, I would like to stay at Wake or go to Chapel Hill. Both have good placement in North Carolina firms, and NC firms do hire a high percentage of NC graduates. I think I will just relax a little this semester and focus on bringing my GPA up by the end of sophomore year. By then I should have a clearer view of how I would like to handle things and if I need to transfer, my GPA will be high enough to not cause any problems. I just happen to be one of the type A people who needs to have everything planned out.

"I remember law firms posting summer jobs and such for non-lawyers, even at the law school placement office." - I will check this out. I had started looking at some firms closer in Kansas near my home but I'll check out the options near school. If it's just clerical work that would be something I could do during school.

I just find it ironic how much an education costs when you can't live with out one and most people can't afford one.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 10:31 pm: Edit

>>I still stand by my statement that where you go to law school is only important for the first job or so and then only for certain type of jobs. After your first couple of jobs you make your own reputation.<<

Tsdad,

What you say is true, but only within limits. It's true in any field, not just the law, that your work experience soon becomes far more important than your school in determining your value in the workforce. But in the case of the law, more so than many other professions, where you went to law school limits you to certain career paths or puts ceilings over your head right from the start.

For graduates of Mediocre State U Law School, the sky is not the limit. They can (often after a struggle) find a job and maybe even become rich if they are talented and can develop a prosperous solo practice. But they will not get hired by top law firms. They will not become law school professors. They will not serve on the Supreme Court. The legal big leagues are closed to them.

And the other limiting thing about all this that it is extremely rare for anyone to "trade up". Being an outstanding attorney at a small rural or suburban firm will not get you hired by a fancy big city firm. No, they will go hire yet another new graduate from the fancy law schools that they all went to.

The one exception I can think of is politics. Sometimes a graduate of a modest local law school can work his/her way up through local and state elective offices and eventually become some sort of law professor after retiring from a distinguished career in the US Senate. But those opportunities are pretty rare.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 11:17 am: Edit

Deamondeacon, take a peek on what the process is for applying to law school. Your undergraduate school counts for just a bit of the profile that is used. What weighs heavily is your gpa, regardless of what courses you take and how hard the courses are. What counts heaviest of all are the LSATs. Ariesathena sent out a post on the forum regarding law school admissions as she is currently going through this process. If you want to go into law, you might want to factor how to optimise your chances of getting into lawschool. I think a year at Kansas State might give you a whole new set of criteria to judge and you can save money, have time to mull things over, potentially bring up your grades, assess a new environment.

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 08:21 pm: Edit

Demondeacon - do a search for "paralegal association" on google. I came up with a whole list of local chapters of this association:
http://www.paralegals.org/

You should be able to find the information and answers to your questions by contacting your local group.

By Demondeacon07 (Demondeacon07) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Thank you for the website info! Have any of you heard of myrichuncle.com? I read a little about it and it's very tempting, but it's also a little odd.