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This has probably been discussed before, but I am relatively new to CC. On one of the individual school threads, there have been a couple of posts about problems with drinking on that campus this year; my son also reported that on one of his college visits, there were a lot of students drinking too much at the weekend parties. I know that alcohol policy at local universities has been in the student newspapers a lot lately. In other words, obviously a widespread problem.

My question is not so much what to do about it on a policy basis, but what advice you parents of older kids might have for us who are about to send our first off to college? For myself, I do not have worries about my son seeking out alcohol, actually. I do worry about hazing, etc., and also about dealing with being teased about NOT drinking. Thanks for any advice you might have.

By Hautbois (Hautbois) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:10 am: Edit

My D is not a drinker at this point (well, aside from her coffee fixes!). Her first experience with a roommate (this year, first quarter - she's a freshman) involved her drunk roommate throwing up all over the floor. D moved out. She's now in a private room. She has friends that drink, and she is merely called "straight edge" or however it is that is put. She said mostly kids just look guilty when they realize she isn't a drinker, and so far has never been pressured to drink and hasn't been teased by any friends, although her x-roomie and her roomie's friends spoke a bit ill of her prior to her moving out. She isn't at all interested in sororities so that sort of thing I can't talk about.

Some kids will test it all out. Others won't. I talked to each of our children before they left for college, warning about how quickly one can become drunk with certain drinks, and about alcohol poisoning and what that can look like (since someone in our family was an alcoholic and I saw it firsthand). Mostly I trust that the years of living here saw us drink responsibly. (And when one asked me once if I'd ever been drunk I answered quite honestly and told her how fabulous it was to throw up all over a friends' belongings.)

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit

I'd suggest making sure they know how to avoid date rape.

Even guys can be victimized by this. Both females and males should avoid doing things like obtaining their drinks (even nonalcoholic ones) from punch bowls. Unscruplous people may spike the liquid with the so-called date rape drug.

Tell your teen to drink from previously unopened bottles or cans and to not let their drinks out of their own control.

Warn teens of both genders that if they choose to drink alcohol or to use drugs, the liquor/drugs can interfere with their judgment. They may end up in situations in which sexual predators take advantage of them. They may end up misjuding their partner, too, and thinking a person is consenting when they are not.

if your teen doesn't want to use drugs or alcohol in college, it can be a good idea to apply to be housed in a substance-free dorm. It also can be a good idea for them to seek out the on campus activities that are more attractive to the serious minded students, not the partiers.

Finding a group of peers to hang out with who share one's values is great protection against being teased or affected by others' drug/alcohol use

Parents, beware of giving mixed messages. For instance, parents who laughingly tell their kids about their drunken parties and escapades may really be giving the message that boozing is a fun and expected part of the college experience.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:28 am: Edit

My daughter attends a small liberal arts college and she has been in the subfree dorms for three years.
Her initial decision to live in teh subfree dorm( they don't use anything legal or illegal in teh dorm- out of dorm is up to them), was influenced I think by not wanting to be around people that smelled like smoke, or people who wanted to stay up all night partying. ( she wanted the choice of doing those things rather than be forced upon her)
Sophmore and junior year, she still chose to be in subfree dorms, partially I think because she became friends with others in the dorm, and also because by choosing a "culture" dorm, you had dibs over people who just wanted to live on campus. She did say though that by junior year, she was questioning that decision as the students in general who lived in subfree were younger and less secure with their decision to abstain in face of perceived pressure.
She isn't a big drinker. She turned 21 this spring and didn't get around to going to a bar for about a month.
Next year as a senior she still plans to live on campus ( she will have to, she will be living in her lab anyway) but she is thinking about living in a co-op dorm or the aparments on campus.
At her school, I didn't see pressure to drink, although there are a few events that she chooses not to attend, or attend for only a brief time because of the level of intoxication/meat market atmosphere.
But those are very few, and most social events don't have substances as a centerpiece.
I do get the impression though that substance use is much more a problem at bigger schools especially ones with the "big game day" mentality.
I am sure that it is a small percentage in general that makes the papers, but boy, do they make the papers!
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/142384_frat03.html

By Barrons (Barrons) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:31 am: Edit

Guess you never got down to Weed, I mean Reed. Also several were killed returning from a night of drinking at Colgate. Small LAC's can easily have as much drinking and drugs per capita as big schools.

By Massdad (Massdad) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:56 am: Edit

One of my biggest disappointments in looking for a college for my D is the lack of information about alcohol attitudes and use on campuses. Anecdotally, I have the sense that highly greek schools have a culture that pushes alcohol consumption, but no real data.

I was really saddened to learn that a project has been ongoing for several years to collect such data, but the study head is obligated to keep the results confidential (except in aggregate). The WSJ had an article last year discussing the situation at FSU and what the administration is doing to turn the culture around. It turns out FSU was getting its data from the study, as does each individual school participating in the study, but we, the public, cannot have access to the same data.

Very sad.

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 10:10 am: Edit

My kids were shocked when I told them that being in the wrong place at the wrong time could result in them suffering consequences/penalties even if they weren't doing anything illegal themselves. They had just never even considered this possibility and it seemed to really impact their thinking.

Re. hazing: I would be interested to know how other parents are going to handle the greek issue. After growing up watching me throw sorority solicitations in the trash and hearing frat horror stories, I have one going through rush this month. I am not inclined to forbid it-- since the kid has been very responsible and successful with academics and social life so far-- but not too happy about the situation. Perhaps my anti-greek bias is influenced by the fact I was compelled to be part of that system against my own wishes. I realize all greek groups aren't all bad (that they can be a positive experience for some), that they differ group to group and college to college. I don't like to force my own prejudices on my kids. This must be an issue for a lot of you?

By Massdad (Massdad) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 10:39 am: Edit

Emptynester,

I've let my D know my feelings about frats/sororities. Knowing her, she would rebel against the pressure for conformity anyway, and would not be happy. Saying that, if she suddenly made a big turn and wanted to go in that direction, I'd probably question a bit, and then reluctantly support her interest.

It's also dangerous to generalize too much, since the flavor of greek houses varies so much. Where I was an undergrad, they had an ag fraternity (named or nicknamed "farmhouse") and an engineering fraternity (even engineers can have fun, I guess) that had a positively nerdy reputation, but guys that had a lot of fun nonetheless.

I even worked in one of the sorority houses for a year as a hasher (scrubbed pots and pans for meals). THAT was an education, especially the difference in appearance of the girls between Friday night dinner and Saturday lunch!

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:12 am: Edit

http://www.securityoncampus.org/crimestats/
http://chronicle.com/free/v46/i40/40a04901.htm#largest
This link has some interesting info on crimes, safety and arrests.

At schools like the UW, much activity occurs off campus, at Reed, which is smaller than local high schools, rowdy behavior is pretty much noticed before it gets out of hand, and students in general must be good at policing each other as out of my 3 or so stays a year( for the last 4 years) I never have seen behavior that I thought was dangerous.
I have seen students go underneath the blue bridge with a bong!, and I have heard about the freshman who supposedly drinks wine with his meals in commons, but to someone who came of age during the 70's, Reed is pretty ho-hum in terms of wild behavior, the students are going to have to try a little harder if they want to keep their reputation as a "party" school, with me.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:22 am: Edit

Massdad,
Good observation about the Greek system. Each house really does have a personality. I was in a sorority all four years in college and I absolutely loved it. I lived in a house that had a very eclectic group of girls. It helped this young naive introvert to find a wonderful core group of friends and allowed me opportunities at leadership that I probably might never have attempted in the larger community of college.
The trick is finding the right fit. I didn't know enough about myself at the time but just lucked out. Rush is a terrible thing from both sides. But then again I'm fairly introverted and the thought of making small talk with strangers is not my idea of a good time. I ended up being a Rush counselor in my senior year. partly to escape the rush parties and partly because I thought I could help young freshmen through the process.

It seems a sorority is a little safer than a fraternity in terms of drinking because they aren't(rules may have changed,but I doubt it) allowed to have alcohol on the premises unlike the fraternities and they aren't allowed to have men anywhere outside the common areas. I was never hazed and never heard about anyone that was but I'm sure it exists and depends on the particular campus.There is probably a greater amount of drinking or pressure to drink in fraternities and sororities. I'm a little more reticent about my son joining a fraternity because I think there is a stronger culture of conformity there than sororities, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Movies and television,especially MTV's sorority girls have portrayed the Greek system in a negative light.
It is a great learning experience to learn to live with so many different personalities.

By Perry (Perry) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:27 am: Edit

We've been talking to our daughter since the beginning of time -- her time -- about the conseuqences of substance abuse. She has no use for it at this point in her life, but one cannot tell what will happen once she leaves for college. I suspect like most kids that she will engage in some experimentation. As a result, we are beginning to talk about what she may expect once she arrives on campus and what to do in the event that she does engage in drinking -- very much along the lines of Northstarmom's comments.
You cannot control their lives; all you can do is offer your best advice. At some subliminal level, I think they listen.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:37 am: Edit

College is a good opportunity to learn about other people its true, you don't necesarily have to be in a greek house.
Hazing does still exist unfortunately and is going to be hard thing to stop, just as it is hard for current medical schools to change training so that residents get some sleep once in a while. Traditions are kept not just by the ones who want to belong, but by the ones who had to go through it and think that excuses the behavior.

While binge drinking on campuses still persists, apparently numbers of people who abstain are growing, which is good news.
Drinking to excess doesn't have to be a rite of passage as some would beleive. @@
http://www.ndsn.org/sepoct98/alcoh1.html
http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/

By Carolyn (Carolyn) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit

I've found that reading back issues of the student newspaper - usually available online - can sometimes provide some interesting insights into the question of drinking and drugs on campus. One Baptist school makes a point of saying in its literature how much else there is to do on campus besides drink but the student newspaper was full of stories about drunken parties being busted up by campus security and the police as well as editorials condeming the lack of things to do on campus besides drink.

Northstarmom wrote: I'd suggest making sure they know how to avoid date rape. >>

It is interesting you brought this up Northstarmom as it occurred to me recently that I had no idea if my (still in high school) daughter would know what to do if faced with this situation. When I asked her, her response wasn't particularly reassuring: "I'd just leave" Well, yes, that would work sometimes but not in every situation or if force was used.

So, my question for more experienced parents is:
what exactly have you told your daughters about what to do in this situation and how to respond?

By Patient (Patient) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:46 am: Edit

I don't think that hazing is limited to fraternities/sororities. It happens in the service academies and it happens with athletic teams. My guess is that it happens at some of our "finer" schools.

A couple of years ago a graduate of our local high school died of alcohol poisoning in his first year at a CSU during (I believe) a frat party. I think he was being dared to drink a type of fruit brandy and was completely innocent about what could happen to him. Someone else died falling off a balcony during a frat party.

I realize that the simple common sense answer is to educate your child about alcohol poisoning and how they simply cannot take their life in their hands like that. Still, some of what happens has a feel of brute force being applied.

By Lizschup (Lizschup) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Emeraldkity,
True the Greek system is not the only place to learn about living with varied personalities but I think it is somewhat unique in that you can't really avoid the people you don't like or can't get along with as you might in a dorm (with the exception of freshman year when you're assigned a roommate)

I'm just trying to offer a view from someone who was in a sorority and had a postive experience. I understand everyone's negative perceptions and they are oftentimes justified. I wouldn't advocate positively for the Greek system with a broad brush nor would I dismiss it all together.It depends on the individual,the campus and the particular frat or sorority.

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Carolyn:

About date rape: Remind your D to be firm when she wants to say no. But also remind her to keep her drink under her eye at all times. There is a date rape drug that is totally unnoticeable when mixed with a drink. It makes the drinker pass out. It is put in the target's drink surreptitiously. Since the victim is unconscious, it is very difficult for her (or him) to accuse the perpetrator. At the beginning of the school year, Harvard became very concerned about the use of date rape drugs. I remember reading some warnings about them.

Regarding hazing rituals: Not all involve alcohol. In fact, I read about a young man who had to be hospitalized after being made to drink too much water. His kidneys were bust. Other rituals involve humiliation of one kind or another.

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Northstarmom's post echoes what I heard last year when I attended a talk by the Director of Student Health from one of the UC's. Talk to them about safety. She also stressed the not drinking from anything that you had not seen opened.
Also she stressed the idea of having a talk with your friends before you go to the party and the importance of staying together. That you do not leave 1 friend behind. She also said that most students will drink at some point and education is most important.
Most schools have some discussion on this issue during freshman orientation.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:05 pm: Edit

I think it wouldn't just be for young women to be aware of unsafe situations but young men as well. A high school classmate of my daughters was murdered earlier this year when he left an off campus party (frat)by himself when he was under the influence.
It seems safest for students to go out in groups, and for at least one to abstain from using any substances. Common sense at picking your parties can't hurt either.
As far as avoiding date rape that is difficult to predict.
I was raped in hgh school by an older boy who was known to my parents, but I hadn't been raised to raise my voice let alone my knee and back then it wasn't beleive that "nice" boys would do things like that.
My daughter has taken self defense classes in college, most of her male friends actually seem to be playing for the other team, so I haven't had a big "date rape" discussion with her, although we have had discussions about being safe.
Rape is really about control and violence not sex, but since we as a culture seem to have a love/hate relationship with both violence and sex, it can be hard to sort out thinking.
While I do agree that if she says "no", then it is rape, no matter what immediately preceded it, I do think that some girls present themselves as sexually available with their clothing and attitude and get into situations which can easily escalate.
Getting power over your body starts young. Seeing themselves as physical strong beings, who don't have to use sex as a means to get attention, and who learn to think ahead and limit the situations where they could be at risk.
Self defense classes ( good ones) are a good tool and should be taken by everyone regularly, just as CPR classes should be. If anything it helps keep it in their awareness.

I don't think that Greeks are the only ones who haze, certainly the atmosphere of the military academies has certainly been in the papers lately. I agree that they can have great advantages, but not anymore than any other type of living situation on campus.
At Reed for example, they have several kinds of theme dorms. SEEDs is for community service, OUTHOUSE goes on regular outdoor adventures, co-op dorms where they plan meals and cook together, language theme dorms, just about anything you can think of.
Lots of other schools have similar options, it isn't how it was in my mothers day, when the choices seemed to be -live off campus- live in a huge dorm, but a tiny room, or live in a plush sorority.
Now some of the dorm rooms are nicer than kids rooms at home!

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Emeraldkity makes some good points.

I've been distressed by discussions of "hooking up" among high school students. Leaving aside one's feelings about casual sex, there are also health issues (STD, including HIV-AIDs and unwanted pregnancies). This is something to be aired with both sons and daughters.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:24 pm: Edit

To add to the self-defense class discussion: I took two of them (Rape Agression Defense) which are taught by police departments - one during high school, one during college. If they are done correctly (i.e. in more detail than "poke him in the eyes"), women gain a tremendous amount of confidence. In many respects, these programmes are designed for women to use against men: women are taught to use their own strength (hips, legs, etc) against weak male targets. The classes are quite comprehensive - about 15 hours total.

Many colleges offer these classes for free... and once a woman takes one class, she can take refresher courses anywhere in the country at no charge.

Besides the physical defense aspect of these classes, they teach a lot of prevention - how to not become a victim (or potential victim) in the first place.

By Jamimom (Jamimom) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Yep, all that stuff exists at all schools. IMy daughter and niece went to small, unknown schools where the kids did not seem to be as sophisticated, and I naively thought that these issues would not be so rampant. Well, I was wrong. It exists everywhere. Another drug that has made the college scene that I had not thought about is crack. Apparently it is relatively, cheap, quickly effective, and available. A lot of crack problems showing up on campus. We've been warned that if you see severe mood swings, manic-depressive (bipolar) behavior where the kid alternately hyper and exhausted, dead tired, appearance of lighters when they do not smoke, crack is a suspect.
So what do you do? Talk, talk, talk about it. If they stray at least the words are ringing in their ears or in the back of their minds. Tell them what to do if they get themselves in trouble with any of this stuff. Don't let the problems get too far. Also stress to them that some of this stuff is illegal---the drugs, and if under age 21 the alcohol. My friend's daughter was caught drinking beer in Gambier, Ohio visiting a friend at Kenyon. The whole group of them were hauled in and booked. She had to go back for a hearing--a real pain since it was in the middle of the week and she did not live nearby. Now she is applying to law school, and guess what, do join the bar, they do a record sweep on you. Don't think this is an issue, but it did cause her to sweat while she researched it. One young man I know was denied the bar because there was an old warrent out for his arrest in Ft Lauderdale. He was 21 then and lent his id to someone who got busted in a fight and never bothered to tell him. Or at least that is how the story goes. And I have not even addressed the issue of illegal drugs. If caught with those, you can really put a major crimp in career plans. They are not kids any more.
Son did not drink or do drugs, in part because of sports. He was blood and urine checked many times last year and could not afford to have anything show up. He has long learned to watch his drinks and not take anything open or that he does not know. The frat parties are really bad that way because some wiseass could and do dose the food and drinks on occaision. All of these scenarios need to be brought to their attention.
Though when I visited S last time, I bought a load of freezer food for him. When I opened the freezer it was filled with booze. I had never seen the stuff around the last times I visited, not even beer cans in the trash and certainly no hard liquor. They like the stuff cold, I guess. He said it wasn't his goods, he shares the house with 5 guys. I pulled out an icetray and it was filled with cubes that had a piece of fruit frozen in the middle. And the jig was up. I freeze my ice that way so the kids can enjoy a flavoring of a mandarine orange slice or half a grape or strawberry in their water. Who else would do that? Nothing like a vodka with a fruit flavored ice cube. A flash of remembrance of a science project many years ago came to me--how to inhibit the freezing process--alcohol does not freeze. So much for his not drinking, I'm sure. But he is 22 and his housemates are all over 21--2 of them fifth year architech majors. What can you say?

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

"I do think that some girls present themselves as sexually available with their clothing and attitude and get into situations which can easily escalate."

I think you are so very right in having that discussion! Is anyone besides me bothered by the possibility that co-ed living, as it is being practiced on many campuses puts young people (female & male) at risk for unwanted sexual advances or attacks. One of my own commented about "the sexually charged atmosphere" when some individuals of both sexes make a practice of walking around in nothing but a towel. I am not a prude but where on earth besides a fancy college dorm would you have such behavior going on, with alcohol added to the mix, and not expect there to be serious and unfortunate consequences?

By Mom60 (Mom60) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Another thing even if your child is not drinking alcohol they still need to watch out for date rape drugs. They can just as easily be dropped in a soda.
From friends whose kids did not drink in high school most do do some drinking in college.
Another friends son who attends Yale was shocked at how much drinking goes on.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Re: coed living
True that in a single sex dorm, visitors are going to stick out, but I don't know if it makes harrasment or assaults less.
I think all the dorms at my daughters college are coed with the exception of the womens floor at one of the dorms.
I have never seen anyone dressed in a towel, then again I usually get there after 9am, so they are in class. They seem to be pretty conservatively dressed though and either dress in the shower stall or wear a robe.
One thing that was a surprise although I quickly got used to it was coed bathrooms. LIke I alluded to earlier, when students are gay/bisexual, it doesn't really matter if it is same sex dorm or not, what matters is how they respect themselves and each other, by respecting privacy and treating each other they way they would treat members of their own family. ( which means sometimes they need an HA to mediate!)
Each floor does have several bathrooms and some dorms decide to make one womens and one mens, but most just go to the closest one.
Perhaps my daughter and her friends are just less sexually out there than other dorms, but I haven't ever felt uncomfortable, even when her younger sister stays overnight.
I think it does make a difference being in a subfree dorm however. No beer bottles full of cigarette butts for the housekeeper to clean up( some dorms have housekeepers apparently- I got to know hers last year when we came to visit without a car. She is more like a dorm mother than a housekeeper, makes them coffee, drives them to the airport, and even offered to loan me her car!- Although my daughter didn't seem to have a housekeeper freshman year,-the dorm was much smaller, she has had the same woman this year as well, a nice homey touch)

By Emptynester (Emptynester) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Emeraldkitty, imho LAC's, for a variety of reasons, have many fewer problems with harrassment in the dorms... on the whole the students seem to me much more tolerant, sophisticated and respectful of each other in these smaller schools. In my kids' university dorms the towel behavior (takes place 24/7) is just on my mind because it was described yesterday when I asked an innocent campus fashion question, although I have observed it myself mid-day, all day, during orientation and parents' weekend. At that time I assumed it was an effort to shock being made for the parents and not commonplace. Additionally, kids just don't seem to me respectful of each other. Having lovers or *hook-ups* in the room, regardless of the roommate's interest in privacy and almost with a sense of exhibitionism seems widespread based on what I hear from my own kids, their friends, and my nieces and nephews at various universities... like you I came of age in the 70's and it takes a lot to *impress* me; Volvo Driving Soccer Mom is my theme song LOL. But sometimes I am amazed that I survived so well the risky situations I put myself in. It seems to me many university dorms are very risky situations for the students on a daily basis. I have no ideas on how to change it. I do think there could be a whole lot more done in terms of education/information for the students and some schools may do a much better job of this than the schools mine attend.

By Busymom (Busymom) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Thanks all, for this wonderful discussion. This is something that has been on my mind a lot in recent weeks. I have seen the Campus crime statistics for various schools at the Dept of Education Site and the numbers of sexual assaults is startling. It doesnt matter whether we are talking about an Ivy School, a Catholic School or a public university, its a problem. And of course, these are the numbers that are reported. There are many that go unreported due to embarassment etc.

Not sure why this is such a problem, it wasn't as big a deal when I was in school. The only thing I would say is that Society seems to such have a fixation on sex and drinking, which explains why so many of these kids are sexually active... in the last 10 years the evening sitcoms and even many commercials focus on sex and/or alcohol. We cannot even watch Monday Night Football without seeing viagara commercials, cannot read sports illustrated without seeing scantily clad models, cannot go to a vacation area without seeing a Hooters.

Unfortunately, I cannot change society and its values, therefore, I need to do what I can to prepare my kids to survive with dignity in this world.

So the question becomes, how do we prepare our kids for this college transition, especially those of us that have done our best to buffer our kids from a lot of this stuff

Obviously, the best solution is to keep talking to them. I love the idea of the Rape Aggression Defense class, I have already looked it up on the web and want to try and get one here in our community.

Thanks everyone, for listening to me on my soapbox, it is comforting that there are others out there with concerns similar to mine!

By Thedad (Thedad) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Good thread, thanks for starting it, Patient.

Funny, just yesterday it occurred to me that I needed to talk to D about not leaving your drink, taking it with you or starting a new one, only from something you've seen opened. The going places in groups of 2-4 sounds like a good idea I wouldn't have thought of, including having a Designated Sober.

D isn't inclined towards drugs at all and has had enough experience with wine at the dinner table that there's not Forbidden Fruit syndrome. Thank goodness she doesn't like beer! [clicks heels while jumping in air]

By Marite (Marite) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Thedad:

It's very important to remind kids (and not just young women) to walk in groups of 2-4 and avoid dark places. The young woman who was assaulted a couple of months ago near Harvard was walking in the evening through a dark church parking lot. Though it is only a few steps away from a Harvard house (dorm), it is so dark and unfrequented that it might just have been miles away from anywhere. The proximity to the Harvard house gave a false sense of safety.

My S, who does not like the taste of alcohol, has been designated driver since his freshman year.

By Patient (Patient) on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Thanks, thedad. I was just going to thank everyone also for the thoughtful and far-reaching discussion. I have learned a lot of things to gradually discuss with my son and both my daughters. This will continue to be on my mind and I know I will be asking more questions once school begins next fall...

By Mnm86 (Mnm86) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 07:28 pm: Edit

i believe parents should not simply advise against drinking, and then present tragic cases of others who did and had to pay for the consequences.

alcohol in this society is viewed as a great taboo. like illegal drugs, (and it is an illegal drug for the under 21) it has taken on the fantastic aura of the forbiden.

many students who don't drink in hs because their parents are there, because of sports, because alcohol is difficult to get start in college because it is so new. they start drinking unsupervised, and have not had the time to learn mature behavior towards alcohol.

if students are exposed to alcohol earlier, and they grow up considering that a glass of wine with dinner is not "destructive behvior" they will not look upon alcohol as a mythical forbidden fruit. it will have lost it's aura, and they might be less likely to engage in destructive behavior.

our college-age society seems to be polarized between the binge-drinkers and those who refuse to touch a drop because they have been taught that all alcohol is intrinsically "bad".

what has happend to the moderates? those who'll enjoy one drink with food, the stop. as they move towards their adult lives -- in which they might go to cocktail parties, enjoy wine-tasting, have a beer while watching the superbowl, they need to learn have adult behavior towards alcohol in order not to have to face potentially devastating consequences.

By Soozievt (Soozievt) on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

While I agree about your forbidden fruit point and learning moderation, I do not think parents should be condoning drinking for underage kids. They can advise kids that if they make poor choices, the consequences that can happen and teach about responsible drinking and all but I do not think they should be allowing drinking by kids in high school as a way to prepare them for later on. Just my view.
Susan

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:04 am: Edit

I think it really depends on your families traditions. It is legal to allow your children to have alcohol in their home, but I have seen kids make the jump that since mom and dad allow it when they are home, what difference is it if they aren't home?

Same thing re:sex.
I can teach my kids about making wise choices, but am I going to provide them with opportunities for what I consider adult behaviors just to give them experience?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 01:11 am: Edit

Emerald, the first time some college guy puts the moves on my D by trying to ply her with chablis, he's going to be in for a rude surprise. "God, this is really sweet, don't you have a dry chardonnay, or at least a Pinot Grigio?" And that will take care of *both* problems at once.

In point of fact, she has reached that "gray" age where while a restaurant won't give her a glass, no one blinks if she takes a sip or two from ours--particularly if we're having different wines, where she'll try both. Once she was in the middle of commenting, "Dry, oaky, with some nice fruit..." just as the waiter came up unobserved and totally cracked up.

With alcohol, I think a lot depends on how the parents model drinking themselves. Whereas most parents won't model sex and are fairly reticent about their own youth. My own view is that while "private" and "appropriate" are relevant words to discussion, so in some instances are "learning from mistakes."

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 06:09 am: Edit

Ok, I'll agree, much does hinge on how parents model behavior.
My parents rarely drank, but they were also disengaged enough so that when I would tell my mom in high school, I had to"have a drink of milk so I would coat my stomach", she didn't even blink. I used alcohol ( & drugs) as social lubricants, but when I hit 21, ironically, I slowed down to using wine with meals or in cooking, wheras my husband who grew up with alcoholics, had to go through treatment and a radical mindshift before he could stop drinking.

That would have been something that I think I really could have been educated about. I know several people including myself, that had little experience with alcoholics in our families, but we ended up marrying into that behavior, having little idea of the impact that, that has on a person's thinking.

This was a big reason why I just wasn't comfortable introducing my daughter(s) to alcohol before they were 21. My husband does not drink at all now, and although I do drink in front of him occasionally, I don't make a production out of discussing the merits of various wineries or distillery regions in Scotland.

I am relieved however that while PBR seems to be the beer of choice for Portland college students, my daughter seems to be able to limit herself to a glass of wine at dinner, and doesn't go for the really nasty drinks that I remember from my youth. ( do they still sell southern comfort?)

By Emilyp114 (Emilyp114) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:20 am: Edit

I have to say that, as a student, I think a lot of parents are very naive about what their kids are doing re: drinking. In our family, I and my siblings, when we reached a certain age, were always welcome to have a glass of wine with dinner occasionally. It was something that became normal in our family. Some of my friends thought my parents were so cool but I really didn't see it that way, I just thought it was normal.

Most kids I knew in h/s were drinking at parties. The ones who didn't were in a definite minority. When I got to NYU, orientation week was one long binge for a lot of kids, most of whom were on their own for the first time. Fake I.D.'s were readily available to kids who didn't have them. Over the course of the fall, I visited 3 or 4 friends at other colleges and the situation is pretty much the same everywhere. The school where I saw the absolute worst drunken behavior was at Princeton.

After the first few weeks in September, things settled down for a lot of kids and it wasn't the big deal to drink, drink, drink as it had first been. That doesn't mean that they stopped, though. Not all kids get drunk every weekend but most kids do drink when given the opportunity. I've seen a lot of kids go overboard and I guess I'm thankful that my parents made it available to me in a safe atmosphere and allowed me to have the opportunity to see what alcohol was all about before I was in a situation where I might have been pressured, or anxious, to experiment.

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

I don't know if this applies to all urban schools, but one of the things that my daughter has liked about going to school in a city is that people don't necessarily drink as much in the dorms so you do not have to deal with as much drunken behavior where you actually reside. She also feels that there is a live and let live attitude that allows those who don't want to drink to do their own thing. It is amazing to me but there are local bars in NYC that serve these kids without carding them. There also ways of getting phony IDs (even though it is more difficult post-9/11).

Like Thedad, we have always offered a taste of wine at dinner in an effort to instill the notion that alcohol/wine can compliment a particular meal and isn't necessarily only a vehicle for getting drunk and "loosening up". It was clear that during her high school days my D was not part of the drinking scene at her school. Finding a college where drinking was not the main form of entertainment was part of her selection criteria. After saying all of this, I know that things have changed now that she is away and occasionally going to comedy/jazz clubs with her friends. We have had the open drink talk, the "If you are surrounded by people who only drink to get trashed - What is wrong with this picture?" talk and numerous other discussions. She has indicated that getting drunk for the sake of getting drunk is not a priority among her friends. When they go to a club it is primarily for the entertainment. Knowing the D and having met some of her friends, I believe her. I still worry, but as a parent I suppose that worrying is part of the job description.

There are some campuses where drinking is really the only thing to do from Thursday through Saturday night. It is definitely worth looking into during your child's college process....talk to students and not just the administration's representatives. One of my daughter's good friends is currently applying to transfer from a school because, as much as she likes the academics, she cannot handle the overwhelming amount of drinking that goes on every weekend. Her parents have spoken to the Dean of Students who now admits that it is a problem that he hopes to address. When this girl headed off to college she knew of the school's reputation but thought that there would be other choices.

I went to a college where binge drinking was the rule. I came from a dry household and knew nothing about moderation. I learned how to drink responsibly by initially screwing up and then slowly growing up. My daughter is better educated and much more savvy than I was. She carries a heavy course load and enjoys a number of outside activities..... which is almost impossible to do if you seriously party. I know that she will make fewer mistakes than I did and I only can hope that the mistakes she inevitably makes will not be ones that have long-term repercussions.

By Clickspring (Clickspring) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:15 pm: Edit

It always surprised me that most people saw college as the time when drinking becomes a part of a child's life until I went away to college. While I was in high school, I drank, and all of my friends did too. Sure, I knew some kids outside of my social group who did not drink, but for the most part, drinking was generally awknowledged as a part of high school in my town.

When I went away to school though, the vast majority of kids I met (primarily from the suburbs) had never drank before college, and as a result of their lack of experience, they had no idea how much alcohol was dangerous to consume. So I became sort of the "mother" of the group, watching out for my friends and making sure they used alcohol responsibly and remained under their own control.

I learned how to drink from older, more experienced kids while I was in high school, and I'm thankful that I had some knowledge about alcohol before I went to college and became just another inexperienced freshman who had no idea how to handle herself. I would have been just like my friends, with the blind leading the blind into uneducated alcohol use.

So in all, I think it's very important to educate people about alcohol use before they go to college so they will know how to drink responsibly. Kids will choose whether or not to drink on their own, but it's better to have knowledge of alcohol than ignorance so as to avoid tragedies associated with irresponsible use.

By Patient (Patient) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:45 pm: Edit

People have brought up the very important points of education about alcohol and role modeling. Also, as in every other aspect of parenting, it depends on the individual child, too. Although it is too soon to tell for sure, I expect that I will have to be more attentive and vigilant with one of mine than with the others...which then makes me worry that I have somehow done something wrong that has made her seem more attracted to the kids who are going to be inclined to drink, and to wonder what I can possibly do to help her choose the healthy path....

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Elleneast, part of my D's selection criteria included a low Greek scene/party reputation. Beyond that, I looked at the point that you brought up: what is there to do for recreation *besides* drinking?

The only school on D's list that I'm worried about in that regard is Skidmore, which is her stone cold safety.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Clickspring, my D knows that a lot of kids at her hs drink and do drugs. Hasn't been a problem for her because she literally has no time to party even if she were so inclined. I don't think she'd stay at a party that turned in that direction. About the only parties she's made it to are birthday party sleepovers.

By Emeraldkity4 (Emeraldkity4) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 02:41 pm: Edit

A birthday party sleepover is where my daughter had her first drink! ( with the mom being home no less, who knew?)
Stereotypes are sometimes true
Schools with a preponderance of frat/team sports student body combined with being out in the boonies, seem to have much more trouble with underage substance use than schools with more individual sports , no frats and in a city or town with stuff to do.

Some areas just amaze me, I have been in towns where the grocery's obviously are catering to the college kids by the huge displays of alcohol and big signs supporting the school team. They do check for ID- technically, but don't blink when obvious students buy multiple shopping carts full of beer and nothing else.
( The uw has some wierd rule about preferring bottled beer rather than kegs, if i remember right)

By Sac (Sac) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 04:01 pm: Edit

I don't think letting our son have an occasional glass of wine has much to do with whether or not he will drink responsibly in college. As Patient pointed out, alcohol and other risk-taking behavior holds more attraction for some kids than others.

Binge drinking, the kind we're all worried about, is about drinking for the purpose of getting drunk, lowering inhibitions (including sexual ones, a motivation I've seen among girls seeking sexual experience, not just boys seeking to have their way with girls), and altering consciousness -- not about picking the right Merlot for dinner.

The picture that I've seen, and I think is echoed by the posts on here from students, is that alcohol is pretty much this generation's drug of choice -- a result of the high penalties for illegal drugs, parental sighs of relief that "it's only alcohol," and the marketing of the alcohol lobby. It's often the "best" kids, those who steer clear of other drugs, and who worked hardest in high school, who get swept away with their new freedom. (I'm thinking of that poor kid at MIT who died in his first week). As parents we still tend to think of college drinking as a few guys with a six pack, when it's guys and girls with vodka, gin, tequilla, and other hard liquors.

Personally, I feel the Germans have it right: a drinking age of 18 and a driving age in the 20s, separating the drinking issue from the driving one. It's bizarre to me that students old enough to vote for president or to kill or be killed in Iraq are not considered adult enough to drink responsibly. Since so many students under 21 do drink, with a wink from colleges in many cases, it only encourages disrespect for the law, and an association between drinking and rebellious behavior (again, a kind of turn on for some the "best" kids who have obeyed all the rules and jumped through all the hoops to get into the best colleges -- take a look at Harvard's upsurge in alcohol poisoning hospitalizations, especially among female students). The frightening aspects for me, beyond alcohol poisoning, are those of unsafe sex in an era with an epidemic of STDS, and the possibility of launching a life time problem with substance abuse. I hope that college orientations, as well as parents, are addressing those issues.

I agree with the point many here have made that, especially in regards to isolated LACs, it's important to check out the culture and the entertainment options for non-drinkers. It's not so much a matter of peer pressure, as that it can be very lonely to have no other choices on a Thursday, Friday, or Saturday night than to curl up with a book or to be surrounded by drunken people if that's not your idea of fun.

Do any students here, or parents, have suggestions for what kind of information or argument works best to discourage students from drinking, especially from bingeing?

By Elleneast (Elleneast) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Sac,

Boy I wish I had the golden words that would encourage moderation in every high school and college student. Children's personalities are so different. The words that will get attention are different for each child.

There was never any discussion at my house growing up, there were only orders. My parents assumed that I didn't drink because they ordered me not to. I drank to excess initially anyway and eventually toned it down when I realized how stupid I was being. I was one of those stubborn teenagers who learned more from making mistakes than from orders or good advice. Fortunately, I grew up without anything too terrible happening.

We have talked about alcohol and it's abuse with our daughter and hope that because of our allowing her some exposure and her basic nature, she will be more moderate in her behavior. She seems to be a pretty steady girl but to be honest, I think that comes more from her hard wiring than from any of our little discussions.

We visit family in western Europe quite often and from what I have seen.... and I may be way off base here...the need to get plastered as a statement of independence, right of passage or as part of the school rah-rah experience just doesn't seem to be as prevalent. Am I right in my observation?

By Mnm86 (Mnm86) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 07:06 pm: Edit

where in western europe? it depends quite a bit on the country?
in england, which i've visited, i've seen similar attitudes towards alcohol as those that exist in the us, similar to what you're describing. i have several irish friends who unfortunatly fit the stereotype. recreation consists primarily of bars for them.

in france, where my family is from, it is assumed i will drink wine with dinner. my grandparents, aunt, waiters in cafes all serve me. i find that wine with a meal is normal and i don't see it as dangerous behavior.

of course kids will get drunk there too. however, because there is wine to appreicate a good meal and wine to get drunk, i find fewer kids turn to the later. a culture that will teach the appreciation of good food and drink will not propell kids to drink to abandon.

i believe it's misguided to have the driving age before the legal drinking age simply because it is a LOT easier to get illegal alcohol than it is to drive illegally because it's easier to aquire a fake id or a can of beer from an older friend than it is to acquire a car. this is why so many fatalities happen. in france there is no drinking age for beer/wine/cider type drinks and the age is 16 for harder stuff. driving waits until 18, as does adulthood.

if we can teach 18 year olds that they are old enough (hence mature enough) to fight a war or make an informed and thought-out vote for a politician, than we can teach them to behavre responsibly towards alcohol.

By Ariesathena (Ariesathena) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Sac:

As a recent college grad who did not drink until turning 21, I'll throw in my two cents.

My parents never made alcohol a "forbidden fruit." I was occaisonally offered wine with dinner (like once or twice a year). My dad said that if I ever wanted to experience getting drunk, we would do shots together... and yard work in the am. The latter approach may not be appropriate for all children! Nonetheless, I never took him up on that offer. Some of it is that I am used to seeing my parents drink responsibly and infrequently - champagne on special occaisons, beer for a cookout, wine with a dinner out - so I never really associated alcohol with rebellion and binging.

In college, I lived on substance-free floors. While some people there do drink, it's not frequently or on the floor... so it promotes an atmopshere of socialization without alcohol. That was my decision, not my parent's... but still one to encourage for a son or daugther. My friends did not drink until they were of legal age, which also helped... though I admit that my junior year, when I was the youngest (by about six months!) things got tough... eventually, I was just not drinking because I had managed so long without it that I didn't want to trip up at the end! Being on painkillers all year helped as well - alcohol would have caused stomach bleeding... ugh!

Regarding drinking responsibly: a lot of that has to do with the friends your children will make in college. The really good friends do not encourage drunkenness, will help out if someone accidentally drinks too much, and will congregate in small groups where everyone knows each other vs. a large frat party.

The effects of alcohol (besides a buzz) are not as well-known as they should be. There is recent research suggesting that moderate and consistent alcohol intake causes the brain to shrink. Every time you get a buzz, 2,000 brain cells die. Severe alcohol intake can cause blindness (as the alcohol basically denatures proteiens in the eye)... and drinking alcohol that is quite strong (i.e. 150 or 190 proof) can do the same. Also, students who are underage and require medical treatment for alcohol poisoning (which can obviously occur even if you haven't had "that much" to drink) can face pretty severe penalties from a college or the police: disciplinary probation, arrest, something on a permanent record. Students who ever need a thorough background check need to avoid having that blemish... and it sure as hell is hard for friends to decide whether to seek treatment for their friend and risk having that friend penalized for drinking underage. Regarding background checks... Jamimom mentioned them in regards to law school (both law school and being admitted to the bar), but they are also done for security clearances. As a chemical engineer, I had a thorough background check to gain classified clearance (for government projects) done at my company - certainly something I did not forsee when I entered college.

It would be wonderful if kids here would learn how to handle alcohol before handling a car. My advice on that is simply to tell your kid (honestly!) that you will a) never criticize if they call needing a ride for any reason and b) pay for cabs home from places if they are drunk or in a bad situation. Let them know that they can be at college, take a cab home from a bar/friends house instead of driving, then call you up the next day and say "I spent $15.75 on a cab" and you'll send them a check for it. The last thing you want is a kid driving to one of these things (even someone else's car!) because it's cheaper than a cab.