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From today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/30/education/30BLAC.html?th

Not going to post the entire article here for copyright reasons, but here are a few highlights:

"The class Mr. Jackson was sitting in recently was a freshman orientation class created this year for men only, in hopes of keeping black male students on track."


"Over the course of the semester, class discussions veered from little things, like ways to remember to bring books to school, to how the students felt when they could not get waited on in stores and how difficult it was to go anywhere, even to school, without money in their pockets."


"Simon Jackson seemed to be waging a similar battle. He said that he, too, grew up in a family that valued education, and that his parents wanted him to become a doctor. In high school, he qualified for honors courses, he said, but they were stressful and he dropped them. He spoke breezily of "having a nice mansion with a lab on the side." But he did not like his remedial math class at Medgar Evers, and partway through the semester said he was having "big problems" in college."


I understand the arguments for and against affirmative action, but how can something like this possibly be justified?

By Shaheedm (Shaheedm) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 09:45 am: Edit

I'll add one other quote:

"Researchers say the obstacles keeping black men from earning college degrees include POOR EDUCATION BEFORE COLLEGE, THE LOW EXPECTATIONS THAT TEACHERS AND OTHERS HAVE FOR THEM, a lack of black men as role models, their dropout rate from high school and their own low aspirations."

By Kubakloth (Kubakloth) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 09:59 am: Edit

What's wrong with this program? Can you explain, exactly, what your objections are?
Who, in your opinion, is being harmed, here?

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:03 am: Edit

Like at many colleges these days, all students at Medgar Evers must take a freshman seminar/college readiness type course. This course is not special for these students. It is organized as a male-only section, but there will be mandatory sections for all students. The college I work at also has some special sections (though not by gender) but everyone has to take it. I echo Kubakloth's question: what is your objection?

By Shaheedm (Shaheedm) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 10:11 am: Edit

I have no objection to the program, other than the fact that such a program is necessary at all. The key point that I took from the article was the quote that I posted.

By Garland (Garland) on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 11:35 am: Edit

Sorry, Shadeedm, I think the question was more posted to the OP. I share your dismay that college readiness/ success programs are needed at all, but if you research, you'll find out that these programs are extremely widespread--probably existing in some form in all but the most selective colleges, and not limited to males, African-Americans, or any other demographic. I do agree with your emphasized portion of the quote you shared, which in large part explains their particular challenges.

By Anthony (Anthony) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 03:33 am: Edit

The problem is that you're giving people college credit for things that should have been taught in preschool, or at the latest first grade.

"Over the course of the semester, class discussions veered from little things, like ways to remember to bring books to school, to how the students felt when they could not get waited on in stores and how difficult it was to go anywhere, even to school, without money in their pockets."

If you need to be taught how to remember to bring books to school, you shouldn't be in college, let alone receive college credit for it. It's just another lowering of the bar, albeit specific to one race and gender.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 04:26 am: Edit

Anthony,
I am fairly sure that the program that you describe is at a college offering admissions to virtually any h.s. graduate regardless of race or gender. It's probably not as if less prepared black males are gaining admission over well prepared students of other races.

My read on what has been happening, though, is that the black males have been more likely to drop out of that particular college, and to address that problem, the college has designed a special section of freshmen orientation to address the needs of the black male students.

I imagine that you have the same concern that I have about a college's offering college credit for things that students should have learned in elementary school.

In a perfect would, such a program wouldn't be necessary because elementary and secondary schools would have provided students with appropriate educations. However, since this did not happen, it's clear that the only way that inadequately- educated students could obtain a college degree would be if the college taught the students things that their previous schooling didn't.

Providing such instruction as a mandatory, college-credit course seems a good solution to me. From what I have seen of freshmen orientation classes, they aren't heavily academic classes anyway. They are mainly designed to help students adjust to college, including learning things such as appropriate study skills. They could include such trivial seeming information as learning the college's history or school song.

Top tier colleges don't offer such classes because their students don't need them in order to adjust successfully to college. I believe, however, that the classes are prevalent at lower tier colleges, and may routinely offer a minor amount of credit.

The course that the NY Times article described also allowed the students an opportunity to discuss issues related to being a black male in society. I can imagine that this not only helped the students learn how to cope with this challenge, but ialso helped them see the value of education in giving them tools to address their challenges due to racism and poverty. This may have given them additional reasons to stay in college.

I believe that if the college developed special sections of freshman orientation for other groups at risk of dropping out (such as first generation college students, mothers, or female students from cultures that did not support education for females), this would help lower their drop-out rates, too.

By Momof3boys (Momof3boys) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:23 am: Edit

I have to second that opinion. Unfortunately, life itself is not a level playing field, and despite innate abilities, so many other things shape a student's readiness to deal with college-level academics. This would include "study skills" as well as life skills (dealing with life's challenges such as socioeconomic, racial or other).

By Shaheedm (Shaheedm) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 11:36 am: Edit

The problems were not unique to Medgar Evers College, the article states that:

"... the graduation rate of black men is lower than that of any other group. Only 35 percent of the black men who entered N.C.A.A. Division I colleges in 1996, for example, graduated within six years, compared with 59 percent of the white men, 46 percent of the Hispanic men, 41 percent of the American Indian men and 45 percent of the black women who entered the same year.."
"

By Got2go (Got2go) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 11:38 am: Edit

I think the whole problem would be solved if we just called high schools colleges from now on, and then everyone could be happy.

By Garland (Garland) on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

>>It's just another lowering of the bar, albeit specific to one race and gender.

The bar is the same for almost every college student today--almost all of them take similar classes to the one described here. If you have a beef with one section of it being race or gender specific, that's a different question, but it has nothing to do with affirmative action.

By Chillinnigerian (Chillinnigerian) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 10:21 am: Edit

THis is a silly post. In NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is this even AA. At least post some thing accurate and relevant if youre going to argue against AA.

By Galagos (Galagos) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit

It is not a very silly post, since it discusses a very serious issue regarding black males and education. To sum up the article:

Title: Colleges Struggle to Help Black Men Stay Enrolled

1. Black men have among the lowest enrollment and lowest graduation rates, compared to both black females and other ethnic groups.
2. The obstacles that black men face in earning a college degree include include poor education before college, the low expectations that teachers and others have for them, a lack of black men as role models, their dropout rate from high school and their own low aspirations.

Some posters may want to turn it into an affirmative action arguement, either pro or con, but the points made in the article certainly merit discussion

By Got2go (Got2go) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Galagos-You're not supposed to say those things!!

Actually, if schools were run by basketball or football coaches, the problem would be solved pretty quickly. Black males don't seem to have any trouble excelling at those activities. Maybe it's because they are expected to perform at their best and compete equally with everyone else.

Funny how dumb, chauvinistic jocks like football and basketball coaches can motivate black males to excel, but the supposedly enlighted education establishment can only come up with excuses for failure.

By Galagos (Galagos) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 05:33 pm: Edit

>>Galagos-You're not supposed to say those things!!

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I must admit this is the first time I've seen an article in the mainstream press that touches on these problems, if that's what you mean. All the arguments I've read before said that even though AA may help minorities get into college, it doesn't mean they aren't prepared for college or can't handle the work. This article appears to disagree with that, compared to all other categories black males appear to be least prepared for college and drop out at a much higher rate.

By Marite (Marite) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 06:16 pm: Edit

There are different things mixed up here. Students admitted under AA are usually considered to be able to do the work. However, there are a lot of colleges with open enrolment, that is, colleges that have no admission criteria. The dropout rate in these colleges is extremely high. Medgar Evers happens to be a college aimed at African-American students. It should come as no surprise that it tries to address the dropout issue by instituting special courses.
There has been much discussion of the gender gap among African-Americans, with a significantly higher proportion of women than men going on to college. For whatever reason, African-American women are better prepared for college than African-American men.
I don't see the article as having anything to do with the pros and cons of Affirmative Action, nor do I see the program that it describes as being in any way objectionable. Affirmative Action has nothing to do with open enrolment.

By Galagos (Galagos) on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 07:41 pm: Edit

I don't think the program is objectionable either. What is objectionable is the way the eduction system in the US appears to shortchange black males in particular, and even males in general. A few months back there was an article in the USA Today about the way boys in general were falling behind in high school achievement and college enrollment, this is a much more drastic case of that problem.

To me the problem has to be fixed at the elementary and high school level, but I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon.

By Froofan (Froofan) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 10:22 am: Edit

i never thought much about it before but we have the same problem in our school. the boys get in trouble a lot more than girls also fooling around a lot more in classes etc. most of the time the girls get the highest grades even in math and science. A lot of the teachers are female and have trouble controlling the claass or keeping boys focused in class.

By Chillinnigerian (Chillinnigerian) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 11:11 am: Edit

I understand the article, but the fact that the poster tried to bring up AA, means that he obviously did not understand the article. This is even more innocuous than AA (if AA can really even be considered harmful).

By Got2go (Got2go) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Wow.

Black women outnumber black men by almost 2-1 in colleges, and on top of that the dropout rate for black men is much higher, and that's innocuous? I guess that's what they mean when they say black males suffer from low expectations and low aspirations.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

I saw some interesting research by a Buffalo professor that indicated most people think that black males are criminal, lazy and stupid. Imagine what being perceived like that does to black males in the educational system.

I think that it is very difficult for black males -- no matter how intelligent and well behaved they are -- to be perceived as intelligent, etc. If they are smart and well behaved, IMO, they tend to be overlooked or not to be noticed for being very bright.

The special attention and encouragement that black females or that people of other races may get if they show talent or intellectual interest may not happen with black males. For instance, when I taught college, one of the most talented writers whom I ever taught was a black male. Despite the fact that his talent was extremely obvious to me, he said that I was the first person who ever told him how talented he was.

With my encouragement, he ended up winning several mainstream national journalism awards. At first, when I was encouraging him, I think he thought either I was a mean person trying to make him work too hard or I was a person who was greatly mistaken about his talents.

Another example of this occurred when my older son was in h.s. Spring of his junior year, he had gotten a 660 on the math part of his SAT. This was about 100 points higher than was the average math SAT score in his highly select h.s. program. He also had scored high enough on the PSAT to be one of about 4 students who made National Merit commended (about 5 students made semi finalist).

Fall of senior year, my son was struggling in his math class because he wasn't bothering to study at all. The teacher, in a very condescending way, told my husband and me that my son was capable with hard work of earning Cs in the course. The teacher seemed disbelieving when I pointed out that since my son's SAT scores were some of the highest in the school, and since he was taking the lower level math in the select program, he certainly was capable of getting As -- if he bothered to do the work.

The teacher also was surprised to learn that for fun, our son had devised some statistical program to figure out odds of his favorite teams winning football progams. The kid whom the teacher thought was virtually incapable of learning statistics was learning it on his own time and for his own purposes.

The same teacher -- when I asked exactly what statistics my son was supposed to learn in class -- didn't want to tell me because the teacher said I wouldn't be familiar with them. I had to emphasize to the teacher that I have a doctorate and have taken graduate level statistics classes! It ended up that the stat my son was expected to learn was statistics that were far easier than what I had been required to learn in grad school. I can only imagine how badly the teacher would have treated a less educated black parent.
As inspirational speaker Les Brown says, "No one rises to low expectations." That, IMO, is a big reason why many black males are having problems in US schools.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Cheers and whistles for NSM.

She notes both sides of the coin in her post: low expectations on one hand, the initial "you're making me work too hard" that often occurs on the other.

By Garland (Garland) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Go2go--the situation is obviously not innocuous; I believe the poster was refering to the programs which are the gist of the article. The original post was complaining about a program which is not harming or shortchanging anyone (thus innocuous), and helping rectify the negative situation, thus a good thing.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Northstarmom, that is a great story!

By Kubakloth (Kubakloth) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Many thanks, Northstarmom, for that story.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 07:56 pm: Edit

That story is a good illustration of the problem. What I can't understand is how black males can apply focus, discipline and hard work to dominate many college and professional sports, yet the education establishment has such low expectations for them. I'll go back to my position that if schools were run by football coaches the problem might be solved pretty quickly.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 10:00 pm: Edit

G2G, you'd need the coaches running schools from for grades K-12. Problem is, I've seen coaches who just *teach*, let alone be administrators, and while there's a certain amount of equality...it's that they're often uniformly bad.

I see URM's in 9/10/11 grades who are utterly shafted because they simply haven't been prepared--either in coursework or in attitude--for the top classes with the top students. And, from observation, it hits the guys much harder than it hits the girls.

It's sad to the point of anger. Of course, it's also sad when some of the student claim that their teachers are being racist...no, for the first time in their lives, for some of them, the teachers are holding them to the same standards as everyone else.

The problems that are highlighted in all the discussions about AA that keep breaking out on this board will persist until the education of URM's in primary and secondary school becomes a priority...a priority that includes the total life of the student, not just what happens during the hours school is in session.

By Uncchlocalmayor (Uncchlocalmayor) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 04:42 am: Edit

Shaheedm, something to think about: how many of the NCAA division 1 black male basketball and football players who go pro early actually finish their degrees? the money is in the league.

By Chillinnigerian (Chillinnigerian) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit

I said the PROGRAM IS INNOCUOUS, not THE ARTICLE! People always seem to hear what they want to. And the poster was trying to say that the program was BAD, even WORSE than AA. And i was trying to say that it was silly of him to mke such a post and than say that this was WORSE than AA.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 10:46 am: Edit

When people talk about how African Americans excel in fields such as entertainment and sports, it's important to keep in mind that as recently as the end of the 1800s, mainstream America didn't even think that blacks do well in those fields.

About 6 years ago, I heard an NPR report describing how some white writer in the 1800s said that it would take 10 black men to provide the amount of entertainment that one white entertainer could provide.

Remember, too, that mainstream sports -- baseball, football, basketball, even boxing used to be all white except for things like the Negro Leagues that didn't compete against whites. Blacks were not felt to be courageous enough or good enough to compete against whites.

Even in the military, blacks were relegated to noncombat roles -- something that existed even during most of WW II. Blacks were believed to be cowardly.

Now look at people like Collin Powell as well as the variety of other high ranking blacks in the military.

To me, what's important is that blacks be given a decent chance.

Blacks now excel in sports because -- since various sports fields are open to them -- black kids from very early ages not only aspire to be in sports, but practice very hard in order to make that goal.

In the military, everyone who enters the military gets the same training and the same chance to make it to the top.

Unfortunately, that's not what's happening in our educational system in which most black students go to inferior schoools. For instance, compared to schools in more affluent areas, inner city schools have a much higher proportion of uncertified teachers and teachers who are teaching subjects they lack training in.

Inner city schools also lack basic school supplies, updated textbooks, technology, libraries and other amenities. I have volunteered a lot in inner city schools, and also have seen guidance counselors and teachers who don't expect much of students, no matter how hard working and intelligent the students are.

For example, I mentored a h.s. student who was trying to be the first person in her family to go to college. Despite the fact that most students at her school made fun of National Honor Society (which caused most eligible students not to bother joining it), she joined it and became president.

WHen she took the ACT, she got only a 14. I told her to take it again, but her guidance counselor told her not to bother because she "had gotten a good score" since the average score in her city was a 12. Imagine how hard it is to come up to one's potential when the people who should be inspiring you expect so little.

By Galagos (Galagos) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit

What you describe about inner city schools reminds me of that article someone posted a while back about the teacher who did "teach for America" in Washington DC but ended up getting sued. I remember there was a complete lack of holding the kids accountable to any kind of standard of behavior or learning. I guess that fits in with the low expectations that teachers have for kids in many schools.

I'm not sure about the sports comparison-you make it sound like blacks excel in sports since the sports field is open to them ...implying that other fields are not open to them now. At the same time, I'm sure many of the black males who excel in sports faced the same lack of supplies, facilities and money that the schools face, but somehow they overcome that. I am amazed when I watch the performances on ESPN street basketball.

The military also is interesting, specifically for the Naval Academy. I know that they have a prepatory school (NAPS) where otherwise promising students who's academic achievement is not up to the standards of the Naval Academy attend for 1 year of additional academics so that they can meet the standards.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Take a look at the sports in which blacks now excel in. In general, they require very little equipment. For instance, to practice basketball, one just needs a basketball and a hoop. These are cheap and readily available in inner city neighborhoods. There also are plenty of role models around who have excellent skills in basketball and can teach youths those skills.

Inner city neighborhoods may lack libraries, access to computers, decent schools and other amenities, yet they will have basketball courts, even if that "court" just consists of a rusty, netless hoop. Black kids will be there up until the wee hours of the night practicing their shots.

Not only is the equipment there, but also the kids also know that the opportunities also are there. They know the steps to success in athletics. Heck, even nonsports fans like me have heard about how Michael Jordan didn't make his h.s. team and then practiced fiercely in order to make it, and they know that black people from similar backgrounds as themselves have overcome tough challenges to take those steps to success.

Black kids also know that if they can play ball, they can go to college and -- if they are extremely good -- can become famous and wealthy.

In addition, black sports celebrities get plenty of media attention. One would have to be blind, deaf and dumb not to know about how well blacks can do in fields like basketball and football.

Unlike what's the case with blacks on more academic tracks -- when they are told that mediocre performance is OK, and if they do well, they might be able to simply get into or graduate from college -- in athletics, black people are told that if they work hard, they can become stars.

Meanwhile, black scientists and intellectuals are virtually invisible.

Many academic fields also aren't that open to blacks because the inner city schools lack the resources for black students to be successful in those fields. It's virtually impossible, for instance, for a student to be on track for medical school or for other science careers if the student can not take excellent (not sham) AP math and science courses in h.s. Students also can't develop science research skills if they lack competent science teachers, well equipped science labs, and access to up to date research.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 05:36 pm: Edit

You forgot one other difference regarding blacks in sports vs education. In sports they never had the oppurtunity to benefit from AA. They were always expected to be at least as good if not better than their white competitors to earn a spot on a team, but in the long run it looks like that didn't hold them back much, at least in athletics.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 12:10 am: Edit

Got2go,
You forget one major difference: The fact that during segregation blacks couldn't play with or against whites in sports like football or baskeball didn't keep the blacks from advancing up to their potential. Why? Blacks were still playing and being coached by the best players/ coaches in the land.

That's very different than what occured in education. Blacks in segregated schools had science labs whose only equipment was beakers and bunsen burners, they used outdated textbooks and textbooks that literally had had pages ripped out, they by law went to school 6 months a year while whites went 9 months a year (this occurred in the South so blacks could be available to work in the fields), they had teachers who lacked adequate training, etc.

It's far easier to be as good as or even better than when one is competing in a sport like football or basketball than if one is competing in academics when one hasn't had the chance to learn what one needs to learn.

By Valpal (Valpal) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 12:40 am: Edit

Northstarmom, your posts have brought much needed insight to a complex problem that has been ridiculously oversimplified by most AA detractors. Thank you!

Black men know that mainstream America sees them as criminal, lazy and stupid. They indeed know, that aside from transcendent performances in either sports or entertainment, they are the most feared, hated and maligned demographic in the American population. Many grow up internalizing to a great degree, society's expectations, and find it extremely difficult to overcome them. They are often only the latest in a long line of black men who have taken to heart the shoddy regard America holds for them. If you tell any little boy, that he is a "bad" long enough, he's going to believe it and act accordingly. For many black boys, that is the nature of their on-going programing from earliest memory. Sometimes it is subtle, but often, it is blatant and unbridled. It's a historical legacy of slavery, on-going in society at large, and sadly reinforced by family members and others in the black community (both male and female) who have internalized the programming.

Even "successful blacks" like my brother-in-law, who is a Naval Academy Graduate and top performing manager for a well known pharmacuetical company, experience the daily, effects of society's low regard for the black male. He's expressed to me how hard he had to swim against a stream of negativity, low teacher expectations and peer pressure---this, dispite the fact that he is the product of college educated parents. He's told me stories of racism he encounters (present tense) in the business world, dispite unquestionably stellar job performance (he's won lots of awards and generated no small amount of income for the company). Many people look at him and assume that, because he has "made it" in corporate America, it is proof that racism no longer exists to any functional extent in this country. But I'm here to tell you, that it's still not as advantageous to be a black man in America as it is to be a white one. A black man's baggage is still much heavier.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 01:08 am: Edit

Valpal,
Did you see the note that my husband, Northstardad, wrote Friday in response to your daughter's taking German? It was in response to an old thread.

If you missed it, his main point was that the fact that she's black and has taken 4 years of German will make her stand out in some wonderful ways, something my husband well knows from his experiences with that language. He has had some excellent opportunities, including a major grad school fellowship and getting opportunities in his professional life to participate in some wonderful international conferences.

By Valpal (Valpal) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:57 am: Edit

Thanks Northstar. No, I'm afraid I missed Northstardad's post. How cool that you H's knowledge of German has opened doors to international conferences!

Bewilderingly enough, My D is the only kid in her entire school, interested enough to persue German into a 4th year. She loves German and plans on continuing at the college level. She too, is hoping that fluency in German will someday afford her opportunities to travel abroad and use the language in a business capacity. Read her essay concerning her German teacher in a thread entitled, "Bowdoin Suppliment", in the What Are My Chances thread. She is worried that she did not write an adequate essay. She's still hoping for feedback.

I feel that your critique could be valuable, dispite the fact that the essay has already been sent.

By Built_Tough (Built_Tough) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 06:54 pm: Edit

As a young black male, I find it very displeasing to read the posts of whites who make it very obvious that they know absolutely nothing about black culture or the struggles of the determined, young black males and females of this extremely competitive generation. You don't know what it is like to live in a neighborhood dominated by drugs, sex and violence, to live in a broken home with only your mother, who has no more than a high school education, to provide for you and to work to make something of yourself despite all the obstacles you must overcome daily, including prejudiceness from white people (like many of yourselves) who post senseless questions and comments on this board about things you know nothing about and will never have to experience because your parents have the knowledge and financial status to shelter you from the negative aspects of the "real" world. The things in life that we understand best are the things that we are around most and most white people (most definitely the majority of the population of this site) do not live in black neighborhoods; therefore, you do not understand the typical ways of black life. You don't understand what it's like to feel alone in your battle with struggling to make good grades throughout high school when your parents don't understand why you study so much or why you are always online looking for scholarships and financial aid for college. Why? Because you know that your parents don't have the money to pay for your post-secondary education. While you people worry about getting accepted to Yale or Harvard or MIT, people of my status are thankful to be able to go to any state college where we are awarded financial aid. Aside from the financial aspect of the matter, becoming aware of the fact that you don't even compare to white kids who are attending top prep schools and getting the best education possible, not because they are more deserving of it than you are, but because their parents can afford to send them there and yours can't do the same for you really enforces a strong feeling of bitterness. I wish that more of you would better evaluate your reasoning before posting because some of the things you type are offensive and terribly incorrect.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Built tough:

You make some excellent points.
I would suggest you do not limit your search to colleges you think you can afford. Reach as high as you can. Some of the most selective colleges are also the most generous with financial aid.

Good luck to you.

By Built_Tough (Built_Tough) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Thanks Marite. I would like to attend more selective universities, but it's very dificult being only one of few at my school who even plan on attending college. We haven't had a counselor at my school for the past four months and although my parents are very supportive of my decisions, they don't really understand the college entrance process well and can't really help me with the things I need help with.

By Marite (Marite) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Built tough:

I'm sure posters here will be happy to help as much as we can. I would suggest to begin with contacting the regional adcom officer for some of the schools you are interested in and ask for advice, especially as regard the lack of a GC at your school and the inexperience of the school staff regarding students who would like to go to college.

By Xiggi (Xiggi) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Built Tough

I commend you for trying so hard to look for new opportunities. If you look for help, you have come to the right place in that people will point you in the right direction and also be brutally honest with you.

However, regardless of the validity of your assessment of this board, I believe you would make a mistake to be antagonistic. For instance, a comment like "prejudiceness from white people (like many of yourselves)" does not endear yourself to the community. Also, I should mention that "racist" and patronizing posts towards minorities are overwhelmingly condemned on this precise board. Also, I can tell that without a doubt that the most insensitive posts are NOT written by white posters but by non-whites.

But it really does not matter, this community strives on providing assistance and guidance to whomever needs it and is ready to accept both the guidance and the criticisms.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 11:06 pm: Edit

Built Tough,
I also encourage you to use these boards to get advice. So as to get maximum exposure to people who are most helpful, start another thread on this parents' board, and state info about your background, and ask for advice about college apps and financial aid. Many people here -- parents as well as students -- will go out of their way to be helpful to people of any race.

Because so few black males go to college and remain in college, programs designed for disadvantaged and minority students are especially interested in attracting black males to their services.

Also, if you say what city or state you're in, people can give advice about what potentially helpful programs would be most available to you.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 08:35 am: Edit

Built Tough

Perhaps you could point out in particular which arguments or opinions you believe are invalid and why, since it is impossible to determine what you are referring to in your blanket statement.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:44 am: Edit

The silence is deafening.

By Thedad (Thedad) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Could have been a one-time poster. Not all of us return to the scene of the crime daily.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Well that's disappointing. It would be interesting to find out what he found so objectionable to the posts. I'm also wondering now if only rich white kids can post on the problems and challenges that rich white (and asian) kids face in trying to get into college, such as the peer and parental pressure, choosing the best party school, competition with all the other school paper editors and all state violinists...

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

It may be that he didn't come back because he has difficulty gaining access to the Internet. He is very unlikely to have a computer at home, probably isn't even near public libraries with Internet access and may not even have access from his school.
When I lived in Detroit, the inner city schools lacked basic materials such as paper and pencils for the students to use. Many schools lacked libraries of any kind. Yet a suburb about 10 miles outside of the city had individual computers on each kindergartener's desk.

It can be hard for the haves to know how different things are for the have nots.

By Valpal (Valpal) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Oh, but that simply can't be, Northstarmom. The civil rights act of '64 leveled the playing field long ago! What have they got to complain about now...?

By Marite (Marite) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Valpal:

LOL! A teacher in my S's school observed that in his AP-history class, everybody has a computer at home. In his regular college prep class, 1/3 of the students do not. Students are not allowed to stay in school after hours (i.e. after 2:30). Level playing field? NOT!

By Got2go (Got2go) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 05:39 pm: Edit

My guess is he's mad at people making all those assumptions about him. My assumption is that he's fairly well educated, given that there were no spelling, grammar or punctuation mistakes in the fairly long post, (aside from the non word "prejudiceness", which is more than can be said about most ivy league aspiring posters on the board.

By Garland (Garland) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

It is not impossible for low income people from subpar school systems to write correctly, Got2go.

No one needs to "assume" anything. He described the obstacles he faces quite eloquently.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Northstarmom assumed he didn't have regular access to a computer, but in his post he says "...when your parents don't understand why you study so much or why you are ALWAYS ONLINE looking for scholarships and financial aid for college..."

Anyway, I just think it's kind funny that people would agree that we should only comment on or discuss our own racial or ethnic group. I also would like to know what he found objectionable, maybe it was valpal's statements that black males are the most feared, hated and maligned group in America, and that mainstream America sees black males as lazy criminal and stupid. I know I would be offended by that statement if I was a black male, I'm also offended by that as part of "mainstream America"

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Got2go,
It would be interesting if Built Tough would return and explain why he disappeared.

It would be funny if he left because of Valpal and my comments because I think that Valpal, Built Tough and I may be the only people who are black posting on this thread. The "lazy..." part of Valpal's quote was a rephrase of research-based info I had quoted on another post. A SUNY Buffalo prof who I think was black had done research that indicated that most people stereotype black males as being lazy, criminal and stupid.

This was the part of Built Tough's post that I was referring to when I speculated that he may lack easy computer access: ". You don't know what it is like to live in a neighborhood dominated by drugs, sex and violence, to live in a broken home with only your mother, who has no more than a high school education"

As I look back at that post, though, I can't tell if he was referring to his own situation or if he was speaking in generalities.

Too bad he isn't back to explain himself.

By Coureur (Coureur) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Message Search shows that Built Tough has posted a total of 14 messages in various places on CC - all on Jan 05, 2004. Apparently it was his one and so far only day on CC.

If you really want to continue the conversation e-mail him. His address is in his profile.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:31 pm: Edit

The part of the conversation I was interested in continuing was helping him with the college app process. I'm not going to chase after him, though, to do that. I do wish him well, however.

By Shaheedm (Shaheedm) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 08:40 pm: Edit

You aren't the only black posters on this thread, and I don't accept that mainstream America sees me as part of the "most feared, hated and maligned group in America", or as lazy, criminal and stupid.

By Valpal (Valpal) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Wow, shaheedm actually posted something that wasn't a rant against AA!

Shadeedm, I suspect that you are a well dressed, well groomed, well spoken, and well educated black man who strikes many a white person you encounter as being out of the ordinary "for a black man"---NOT ALL, mind you. But I'm not naive enough to think that many Americans don't fall to stereotyping black men---especially when they watch news footage reporting inner city crime, or gangsta rappers on MTV, or any number of sitcoms on UPN.

By Valpal (Valpal) on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Also, "research" that suggests that "inherent genetic inferiority" is the reason for test score disparity between whites and blacks (a la "The Bell Curve"---Things haven't changed that much since William Shockley's day in the 1970's limelight), is something that's still VERY well received. Just read the many reviews of The Bell Curve by Amazon.com customers, and you'll not have to guess what many of them will instantly assume about you if they saw you jogging down the street in athletic gear.

By Built_Tough (Built_Tough) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Wow...
I never would have thought that my absence would have caused such uproar amongst the CC community.

I see that you all do your research well (quite impressive Coureur- Dang, you did a search on me)

Thanks.-to those of you who defended my position and reason for delay of response.

I'm definitely not afraid to stand for my beliefs- for those of you who suspect that I just bolted from the board because I had nothing else to say in my defense.

Now, to address the many assumptions and proposals...

1. No; I'm definitely not rich, rather, near lower-middle class. Probably closer to lower.( I work part-time and I have my own car, internet service at home, personal computer in my room, and a laptop for mobility.)

2. Got2go, I obviously misunderstood your intentions because when I review your posts (mainly the new ones posted on Thursday), you don't seem to me to be a racist as I had been led to believe before. I didn't understand the point that you were attempting to convey because you didn't fully explain yourself or the position you were taking concerning A.A.

"Anyway, I just think it's kind funny that people would agree that we should only comment on or discuss our own racial or ethnic group."

...You don't know enough about black culture to make the kind of assumptions you made...If you don't know enough accurate information about a certain racial group then don't talk about them or make assumptions about why they do the things they do. Yes, I'm guilty of the same thing...I know I made rude statements in my first post and my intentions were not to offend anyone, but I obviously did. Even so, I can't take back what I wrote....I can only express my regret and ask for forgiveness.

It seemed to me that you were attempting to make a joke in your post indicating that black males can only succeed at playing sports but not at the more important things such as education, and I did not find it funny.

"blanket statement" ---------- ??? I thought that I was very precise about my views of your thoughts.

"Actually, if schools were run by basketball or football coaches, the problem would be solved pretty quickly. Black males don't seem to have any trouble excelling at those activities."


In my opinion, that is not the kind of comment that should be made as a joke about someone (or a group of people) of another race unless you are close friends with this person and know them very well. It is not proper to post a message on a controversial issue that will be viewed by hundreds online and to propose generalizations about why black men can or can't do certain things. But, I misunderstood you and I don't think that is what you were trying to say in your post and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and the false judgements that I made previously.

I don't know when I'll be able to come back to this site, so don't take to the duty of tracing my online activity; it's not necessary. I will surely be back by Monday. Until then, take care of yourselves and please be more precise in your posts.

By Got2go (Got2go) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Built Tough-

Nice to see that you could come back and respond.

Although I do often post poor attempts at humor, in this case I was not at all joking when I said "...if schools were run by basketball or football coaches, the problem would be solved pretty quickly. Black males don't seem to have any trouble excelling at those activities."

What I mean by this is that coaches in those sports coaches expect and demand the best of their players, regardless of skin color, race, ethnicity, or any other category that some groups like to apply to society. Either you are good enough, or you aren't, as measured against everyone else, regardless of skin color, etc. Everyone plays by the same rules, and you don't get a first down in football with only 8 yards just because you are black. Under these circumstances, black males compete successfully and actually dominate many sports in terms of numbers and performance.

However, it appears, and this is backed up by comments from Northstarmom, that many educators DON'T expect or demand the best from certain groups, specifically black males. I think that some of that comes from the "victim mentality", ie, "he's a black man, so he has it much tougher than everyone else, they can't expect to do as well as whites or Asians who have better schools, computers, more money, or whatever." I believe that low expectations lead to low performance. I think shaheedm presented some good arguments about this some time ago.

Every ethnic group has been persecuted by another at some time or another, even if you just look at "white males", there were millions of white males (and females) who worked and died as slaves under the Nazi regime, and that was only 60 years ago. Slavs and Jews were viewed as subhuman, and the ultimate goal of the Nazi regime was to eliminate them, not just have them work as slaves. Even before the second world war, for hundreds of years until the early 20th century, millions of Russian serfs were treated as slaves, with little or no education or hope of a better life. Koreans and Chinese suffered similar fates both under their own governments as well as under Japanese occupation before and during the second world war.

Yet, if a Russian immigrant or Korean immigrant comes to the US, we expect him/her to compete academically with everyone else, we don't say "well, his grandfather was killed as a slave laborer, and his family never learnt to read, so we need to give him a pass.

So anyway, I am basically saying that even if you have it tougher than some others, don't make excuses, just get out their and compete. As in football or basketball, having to work harder for an education can actually make you better, and stronger, than those who had it easier than you.

I thought that your pseudonym "built tough" might be an example of that.

By Northstarmom (Northstarmom) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:45 pm: Edit

I'm black, and I understood what Got2go meant in his post about coaches. In fact, I have said the same thing.

Lots of people, blacks included, assume that blacks are naturally good at athletics and in entertainment.

As a result, when black kids participate in such activities, they are given extra encouragement, they benefit from the halo effect (in which students whose teachers expect them to do well end up doing better than do other students), and they themselves also work harder -- because they assume that they can excel in these activities.

It's routine to see black kids spending hours on end -- often with parents' encouragement and help of their churches-- playing basketball and practicing singing and dancing.

Black kids who aren't naturally good at sports or entertainment are ridiculed by their peers,and perhaps even their parents, and are given the message that they need to try harder to be true to their race.

Meanwhile, while black kids are being "true to their race" by shooting hoops and dancing, Asian kids are being true to their cultures by spending their free time doing academics in things like Chinese schools run by their parents, and Jewish kids are being true to their cultures by learning history and Hebrew in Hebrew school.

No surprise about what types of kids on the whole do better on things like SATs.

By Anxiousmom (Anxiousmom) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Yep. There is a lot of pressure from peer groups and community for Asian kids to study, study, study, and I think we downplay the importance of peer pressure on the academic goals and achievement of "minority" kids. My own kids went to a public elementary school that was minority majority - 50% black, 30% hispanic, maybe 20% anglo. While all kids in kinder started out as enthusiastic learners, by 4th-grade many of the black kids were openly antagonistic towards kids who were "academically" focused. (And the teachers had high expectations of ALL kids, and many of the teachers were black and hispanic...) But culture is SO strong, and if you identify with a group of kids who think that it is a wussy thing to do to apply yourself and "talk educated" and study hard, then you don't do so! And peer pressure only grows stronger in the junior and high school years. I feel rather defensive when I read so many negative comments about teachers in regards to this issuse - there probably are many lousy teachers out there with low student expectations - but there are many terrific teachers out there with very high expectations - but who are fighting an uphill battle. I teach low-income hispanic and black kiddies; I have great materials and supplies and facilities; I love the kids and have super-high expectations of them; many of them are super-bright kids, a few are not; BUT - I can't make up for 5 years of monosyllabic parental/child interaction. I can't make up for 5 years of the conversations that the child has had with their parent limited to: sit down, go to bed, get in the car etc. I can build vocabulary, but will never be able to overcome a lack of experience and language in that child. (There is a great book that is called something like "the everday experiences of children" - that measures the sheer number of words that kids are exposed to - and there is a huge difference in cultural groups and economic groups - literally millions and millions of word deficits in some groups.) The kids I teach in Kinder learn to read before they leave, but most lack a sophistication of language and thought because of their upbringing. Add that to strong peer pressure NOT to play the "game" of school and it is REALLY hard for any teacher to cure this problem. P.S. I'm still trying though!

By Valpal (Valpal) on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Northstarmom's last post was spot-on. The disparity between African American academic performance and that of other races/ethnic groups is primarily culturally based. The discrepancy is deeply rooted in over THREE CENTURIES of slavery and half a century of Jim Crow, and has, to varying degrees, been reflexively self perpetuated within the black community itself. Racism planted the seeds and faithfully watered the weed garden for MANY generations. But after the weeds had virtually choked the life out of the plant, it would take quite a bit more than "less aggressive watering" for the plant to completely rebound.

That being said, I DO believe that the most effective long term solutions to the myriad and complex problems within the black community will have to come from within the black community. There will have to be a steady and aggressive shift in the mindset that perpetuates academic mediocrity. Excellence perpetuates excellence---a phenomenon daily exemplified by the almost "god-like" status the African American community (and even America at large) confers upon black sports and entertainment stars. Again, I believe that this has its roots in slavery, when the things most valued by slave holders were a slave's physical prowess (even sexual prowess, in that slave fecundity translated directly into great wealth for slaveholders), and a slave's ability to entertain..."Boy, that Uncle Remus sure can play the fiddle!" Demonstration of overt slave intelligence was, on the otherhand, seen as dangerous and counterproductive to an agrarian economy dependent upon slave labor. It was only pragmatic to convince the slave that his ignorance was both, inherent and inextricably tied to his survival.

Anxiousmom's post is also extremely insightful: "But culture is SO strong, and if you identify with a group of kids who think that it is a wussy thing to do to apply yourself and "talk educated" and study hard, then you don't do so!"

I think I may have said before, that I was a victim of just this type of mentality. During middle school, I was completely ostricized by the black kids in my school and community (And even by my own cousins!) because I was perceived as "acting white". I read too much, and questioned too much and participated in class too much---and the greatest offense of all, I cultivated friendships with white kids! Schools had just desegregated in Virginia. Dr. King had recently been assassinated, Detroit, Watts and L.A. were erupting in riot. It was a time of great social chaos and transition. I was just trying to grasp it all (a tall order, to be sure). But even as I experienced the sting of being an outcast, I recognized the terrible self-destructiveness of my peers. They had completely bought into the mindset, that book intelligence wasn't "for us", that the desire to read and speak English properly was, "to sell-out". They had largely accepted the narrow parameters imposed by white America concerning what it meant to "be black", and vigorously self-policed that definition within our own peer group. Social Psychology has a term for such behavior, which is not at all restricted to African American society (can't remember the name of the term, though). I don't believe the phenomenon is as strong or as widespread within the black community, as it once was. However, I do believe that it has amazing staying power in the lower economic classes, where it's effects are most damaging. The observations of Anxiousmom bare that out.

"I can't make up for 5 years of monosyllabic parental/child interaction. I can't make up for 5 years of the conversations that the child has had with their parent limited to: sit down, go to bed, get in the car etc. I can build vocabulary, but will never be able to overcome a lack of experience and language in that child."

I've also observed the same thing with distress and dismay, Anxiousmom. Just the other day, I watched a woman communicating in just such a manner with her children in a near-by mall. While other women will carry on intimate and affectionate conversations with their toddlers, women like this one seem most burdened with the care of their children. Their communication does indeed border on the monosyllabic, and is entirely lacking, either patience or affection.

"The kids I teach in Kinder learn to read before they leave, but most lack a sophistication of language and thought because of their upbringing." Obviously, one can't give what one doesn't have. The "literally millions and millions of word deficits" are usually generational in some economic and social classes. I can't even begin to say how a problem, hundreds of years in the making, should begin to be addressed. Suffice it to say, that it won't be served by simplistic and smug editorializing from the outside, or apathy and lack of acknowledgement on the inside.

I would, however, like to thank you, Anxiousmom, for continuing love your students and to hold them to the highest academic expectations. Given the seeming intractibility of the problem, what else is there to do?

By Thedad (Thedad) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:39 am: Edit

There are some great posts here. Some people need to read them for their education. I bow to Anxiousmom.

By Shaheedm (Shaheedm) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 06:08 am: Edit

Much of what is being said echoes arguements I made against AA before, and the differences in opinion between me and northstarmom, valpal, and anxiousmom may have more to do with the different viewpoints between men and woman than anything to do with race.

Yes, blacks have it tough, but a lot of that is our own making, the stigma against educational achievement. We can blame that on slavery, racism, someone looking at us the wrong way, not having a computer, or whatever else we want, but as valpal says, ultimately we have to fix it. We need to stop making excuses, get tough, and go out there and compete with the best, just as we do in sports or entertainment. Until we do that, and stop accepting AA as a salve for our past oppression, we will be perpetuating a culture of low expectations and lowered achievement. As got2go points out, the world is full of people who have gone through a lot more suffering a lot more recently than we have, and we don't expect any less from them.

By Built_Tough (Built_Tough) on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Shaheedm, I agree 100% with your viewpoint. Unless we do something about our situation, it will never improve. The problem in communities such as mine is that the majority of the population does not realize this and are satisfied with life the way it is because that's all they know. Until someone comes into my community and shares their knowledge with my schoolmates, I am sad to say that I don't think anything is going to change for the better. In the past white professionals with good intentions have come to my school to speak with us about things such as STD's and abstinence, but they were not effective because they could not relate properly with the students at my school. My community needs more blacks who have the ability to explain things to black students in a manner that will reach them. Until that happens, I see no way for significant changes in the student body or community to take place.

MT

By May_1 (May_1) on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 02:00 am: Edit

ALERT: LONG POST AHEAD

I'm too tired right now (6 hours of work afterschool = miserable me) to address the issues brought up here in an original post, so I've pasted the rough draft of an editorial I wrote a year or two ago for an independent school publication... (Caveat: When I get passionate (read: angry) about something, I start throwing around vocab like I've just finished Barron's 3000 word list and the SAT is 2 days away, so bear with me)

IT’S NEVER AS CLEAR AS BLACK AND WHITE

While I strive to not discuss any trite issue, and while the issue of ethnicity in America is often debated, I seek to approach it form a different angle, one unique to me and to minorities, specifically African-Americans, that have much in common with me. To this issue can be attributed many of the social, economic, and educational downfalls plaguing the African-American community. Furthermore, it has caused the retardation of advancement in the community, as well as the suppression of talents that otherwise would have been rewarded. This ethic is embodied by the following question asked countless times: “Why you gotta act so white?” It is that of the promotion of ignorance as an ideal.

Many politicians and experts are quick to point out the schools and the systems as the problem. I, in no way, disagree with them. They are at fault, to a point. The schools are assigned with providing a safe and clean environment that encourages learning. Some schools surpass this requirement, while others fail miserably; most fall somewhere in a middle ground. There a point, however, at which the community, which for the purposes of the argument includes all non-curricular influences, must be held responsible. It is here that any learning that may take place in the future is mowed down prematurely. It is here that the value of learning has been lacking. I draw most of my claims from personally experiences, ones in which I was labeled abnormal by peers of my own age because I spoke with proper diction and enunciation. Is it such a crime that a young African-American male can articulate himself? Apparently, it is. Moreover, such a person can not be and is not rightfully an African-American, for it is accepted knowledge that only whites speak in such a manner. This makes no sense. You may or may not be surprised to discover that such harassment of these “Uncle Toms and Oreos,” as they are disparagingly referred to, is as commonplace in 1st grade as it is in high school, however more malicious and consistent it becomes.

This issue poses two immediate negative consequences: first, that those who strove to better themselves intellectually will, upon receipt of such negative reactions, sink into the masses; and second, those who may have begun the small steps that eventually lead to an increase in intellectual depth would never begin, for a fear of backlash. On these points, one may ask, “Well, could it be that these young persons did not have the intellectual or emotional confidence and self-esteem to weather the storm?” While such constant barrages can help to build a protection against future attacks, for young students still in elementary school, acceptance is everything. The desire to belong many times overpowers the hunger for knowledge. It is here where many budding intellectuals are struck down in their prime simply because they did something that came naturally to them; they wanted to learn. Moreover, as learning and education is being discouraged, recklessness and illicit behaviors are being promoted. “Why go to school and dedicate years to study when you can make instant cash selling controlled substances?” or “playing ball?” these promoters cry. I understand that this is not the case all but the most downtrodden communities. For most, it is complacency that is the enemy of intellect.

How can the negative consequences of such an ethic be combated? First, it is absolutely necessary that the kids themselves—not the parents, not the teachers, not the administrators—begin to take value and pride in the ability to exceed one’s apparent intellectual potential and to defy barriers. Furthermore, it is the job of the schools to make sure that the children are held accountable and that an environment in which the smart must suffer is not tolerated. This is particular important in elementary school, where the pressure to fit in is almost overwhelming. It will take dedication and perseverance to eradicate the attitudes that hinder the progress of young developing minds, but with time, they will not have to hide their talents, but rather be confident that they are accepted for, not in spite of, them.